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View Full Version : is there going to be a bug fixing version for 8.5 or are we to wait for 9



dogbite
11-10-2005, 04:09 AM
well its all in the subject

DogBoy
11-10-2005, 05:12 AM
My guess is, if there was a 7.5d then there will probably be a 8.5b.
Most likely it'll arrive post-[9], though.

Dan

dogbite
11-10-2005, 10:02 AM
no b, i hated the abcd style, i prefer the 8.51

mkiii
11-11-2005, 03:00 AM
I don't give a monkeys cuss what they call it so long as we get it.

brap
11-11-2005, 08:21 AM
Just want to lend my support to the idea of as many 8.5x patches as necessary. The Bug Workshop threads have shown just how effective a testing team the LW comminity at large can be. I'm perfectly happy to wait for 9 until the 8 series is rock-solid.

JC

dogbite
11-11-2005, 08:31 AM
it took v.8 about 3 tries to get it working , spanning a year and a half.
than version 9's perfect form would be out in about 2.5 years .

Chuck
11-11-2005, 11:57 AM
it took v.8 about 3 tries to get it working , spanning a year and a half.
than version 9's perfect form would be out in about 2.5 years .

Actually, LightWave [8] was a stable working platform from 8.0. It did not take the additional updates to "get it working," we did them to improve on an already solid product with new features and even more stability. Our research with the userbase confirms this, with well over 80% finding 8.0 as stable or more so than any preceding version. Our plan is to release v9 as an advancement in stability over v8.5, in addition to the array of new features and improved workflow.

To address the original question and some of the subsequent comments, the release of an update to the previous series after a new ordinal series had been released was an exceptional action, and the LightWave management team has not indicated that this is something that would become standard procedure. So far the team has not mentioned plans for any other releases between 8.5 and v9.0.

mkiii
11-11-2005, 01:00 PM
Well there it is. Buy V 9.0, live with 8.5 bugs, or go back to 8.3.

At least we know now.

Chuck
11-11-2005, 02:03 PM
Well there it is. Buy V 9.0, live with 8.5 bugs, or go back to 8.3.

At least we know now.

The list of issues that are fixed in 8.5 vs 8.3 would recommend against that. What issues were introduced in 8.5 that didn't exist in 8.3 and would lead you to suggest reverting?

To speak a little more to the topic of 7.5D, we're the only 3D developer (and maybe any software developer) I'm aware of that's ever updated a previous ordinal version after releasing a new ordinal series. We didn't expect to release it after 8.0, but things worked out that way. We weren't trying to set a trend with that, but we had promised it, and we keep our promises.

It's also worth considering that not even bug fixes are free with several of our major competitors. If you want maintenance upgrades, you pay the annual maintenance fee or you pay for the incremental upgrade when it is issued. With those folks the cost on maintenance can be several times what we charge for an ordinal update, and even buying an incremental update can exceed what we charge for an ordinal. By contrast, those who have purchased LightWave [8] have received five free updates to the product, and each of those has addressed a substantial number of existing issues as well as added a few new features. The Dev Team has also done it's best to avoid adding any new issues with an update, particularly within whatever features are new.

dogbite
11-11-2005, 02:15 PM
yes 8.0 was stable, with the program crashing only 6 days of the week.
im still scared to move the mouse when lightwave is in loading process.
i started using lightwave becuase of crashes, i used 3dsmax way back and i was happy when the program didnt crash when opening.

and we do love the updates, thats the part to look for.

Chuck
11-11-2005, 02:29 PM
yes 8.0 was stable, with the program crashing only 6 days of the week.
im still scared to move the mouse when lightwave is in loading process.
i started using lightwave becuase of crashes, i used 3dsmax way back and i was happy when the program didnt crash when opening.

and we do love the updates, thats the part to look for.

Did you contact support via NewTek or your regional distributor, NewTek Europe? The instability that you report is not the typical customer experience, and support can assist in identifying the causes of such unusual instability and help resolve them.

lardbros
11-12-2005, 03:30 AM
What issues were introduced in 8.5 that didn't exist in 8.3 and would lead you to suggest reverting?


The transparency in modeller openGL... But i guess it won't be sorted now. And maybe it did turn out to be a driver issue, but it still does it on mine with the latest drivers.

ACLOBO
11-13-2005, 02:08 AM
The list of issues that are fixed in 8.5 vs 8.3 would recommend against that. What issues were introduced in 8.5 that didn't exist in 8.3 and would lead you to suggest reverting?




I, also suffer from the transparency issues in Modeler. We are not alone either. There are a number of users who have reported problems with this issue. Maybe a lot of people don't have transparent polys on their models, but there are a lot of us out here that do. This is not some obscure hardly-used plug-in either. This issue affects how we interact with modeler. 8.3 did not suffer from these display issues on my machine and I have a good graphics card with the latest drivers.

eVGA geForce 6800.

-Adrian

mkiii
11-13-2005, 04:37 AM
The transparency in modeller openGL... But i guess it won't be sorted now. And maybe it did turn out to be a driver issue, but it still does it on mine with the latest drivers.

Yes Chuck.

This is also my main concern, along with the UV mapping problems (points left over after editing on UV map), and the random selection of polygons that lie behind the viewport on complex objects.

All these have been reported. The last 2 bugs have been around for quite a while now without being fixed in any of the updates so far.

Regardless of other bug fixes, the only way to get rid of the transparancy issue, and not have the bugs that stopped me loading some more complex models is to swap the 8.5 modeler.exe for the 8.0 modeler.exe.

I hate to sound ungrateful, but if free updates do not address any of the long standing bugs (UV problems), and introduce new bugs that make the app almost unusable, then they are not worth bothering with, and don't fill me with confidence that paying for 9.0 is going to solve them either.

I don't want to drop lightwave, but since modelling & texturing is my main use for it, and these aspects of the app for me at least are getting progressively more broken with each update, then I may be forced to.

JML
11-13-2005, 10:52 AM
... So far the team has not mentioned plans for any other releases between 8.5 and v9.0.

the 2 bigest thing that would need to be fix in 8.5b would be the transparency bug in modeller, and the memory managment which is worse
in 8.5 than 8.3. (details in bug workshop)

T-Light
11-14-2005, 01:06 AM
Yup, I've had quite a few problems recently.
If there's a memory management issue with 8.5 then it could well be that, switching between Layout and modeler has resulted in a quiet a few crashes of late and models with complex layers (even though they're not active) has brought modeler to a crawl.

ps (didn't have these problems before 8.5)

dogbite
11-14-2005, 04:29 AM
also, cut tool doesnt show preview in the displays

gjjackson
11-14-2005, 08:53 AM
The only issue I've found on 8.5 is using it on a 64bit platform in Win32 mode. It was when trying to use both 64 and 32 bit. At one point I may have tried to run both at the same time, and seemed to cause problems. I started getting confused which one I was running and which one I was installing plugins on. I was using the 32bit path to install plugins on the 64 bit. Anyway when I started LW once it would crash immediately. Each time I started it, it would get a little further. After the 4th time it fully came up. I then realized I was mixing 64bit and 32bit. Once I went back and cleaned everything up and did it right I haven't a problem since, using 32bit on xp64. There haven't been much upgrades in plugins for 64bit yet so I've held off on that for now. One developer seemed to indicate there isn't much to re-compiling for 64bit so I hope the developers out there update pretty quick.

It seems most problems I've had anyway are due to problems in plugins. In this respect I would prefer to have some sort of plugin manager whereby plugins could be added easier to a particular project, FOR that project alone. A way in which a new plugin added would be added to a menu automatically. There may be some easier ways to accomplish this but I haven't taken the time to really get a handle on it. This is especially a headache when trying out new plugins. But then again I haven't really seen any software that could manage something as this as much as a user would want.

One thing I AM looking forward to is the Viewport changed in v9.!!!

brap
11-15-2005, 08:17 AM
What issues were introduced in 8.5 that didn't exist in 8.3 and would lead you to suggest reverting?

Chuck, I am experiencing the transparent polygon display issue in Modeler that has been reported by others. Unless an nvidia driver comes out which fixes this problem, a patch to 8.5 will absolutely be necessary.

-JC

Chris S. (Fez)
11-15-2005, 08:24 AM
Chuck, I am experiencing the transparent polygon display issue in Modeler that has been reported by others. Unless an nvidia driver comes out which fixes this problem, a patch to 8.5 will absolutely be necessary.

-JC

It IS a Lightwave issue. I'd rather have 9 sooner then later, but after 9 is out the door, I would STRONGLY SUGGEST that Newtek get to work on an 8.5 patch to fix the memory issues and transparency display issues (that were FINE in 8.3).

Chuck
11-15-2005, 09:04 AM
Yup, I've had quite a few problems recently.
If there's a memory management issue with 8.5 then it could well be that, switching between Layout and modeler has resulted in a quiet a few crashes of late and models with complex layers (even though they're not active) has brought modeler to a crawl.

ps (didn't have these problems before 8.5)

Some of the changes in 8.5 do lead to higher memory requirements for some scenes and some rendering situations. As such, that in itself is not a bug, it's a change to the way certain features operate and certain data is handled. While the reports I've seen on the bug workshop thread from Scott and JML seem pretty clearly related to this, your report seems as though it may not be strictly related to this issue - if you can provide more information and repeatable steps on the workshop thread, or content that can assist in duplicating the problem as you describe it, that would be very helpful and much appreciated.

Chuck
11-15-2005, 09:15 AM
Yes Chuck.

This is also my main concern, along with the UV mapping problems (points left over after editing on UV map), and the random selection of polygons that lie behind the viewport on complex objects.

All these have been reported. The last 2 bugs have been around for quite a while now without being fixed in any of the updates so far.

Only issues that were specifically created in v8.5, meaning features that worked in 8.3 and then didn't work in 8.5, would be the relevant factors for the team to consider doing an additional maintenance release in the 8.x series, and that was very specifically what I asked about in order to pass the info to the team.

The 8.0 updates and beyond have made a priority of addressing a lot of longstanding issues in the code. They put away a lot of bugs, and that will continue for the v9 series as well.

somnambulance
11-15-2005, 09:31 AM
****, I was seriously hoping to have a functional bandsaw tool (Mac bug)... Better luck next app?

Chuck
11-15-2005, 09:35 AM
Please note that I've removed one message from the thread. Specific reports and comments are useful and appreciated for consideration in this request for an additional maintenance update. Blanket unsubstantiated claims are not useful and will be removed.

JML
11-15-2005, 10:12 AM
so I guess 8.5 memory 'problems' will stay..

we had to be careful with big scenes with 8.2, and 8.5 memory limitations made everything worse..
because of it, at work the renderfarm is still 8.2, and some of the pc workstations are using 8.2 and some 8.5 (mine).
that works fine, I just wished we could have installed 8.5 on the farm to get
the speed improvements..
(I'm using 8.5 at home on pc too, I'm just a lot careful with polygon counts..)


all the mac users are using 8.5 and memory management seems to be fine there.
now LW seems to be better on mac than on pc. this shows that LW on mac is not as bad as what people say. (on mac, people can have scenes with 7 millions polys nad have no memory problem...)


please, I hope LW9 new rendering engine will be better with memory management on both plateform.. and will be able to use hardrive space
as memory if necessary.


a little help for the LW engineer :D :
IF
Ram=full
Then
use harddrive;
End.

brap
11-17-2005, 04:55 PM
Only issues that were specifically created in v8.5, meaning features that worked in 8.3 and then didn't work in 8.5, would be the relevant factors for the team to consider doing an additional maintenance release in the 8.x series

Chuck, thanks for your input vis--vis this issue. If there is indeed no way around the transparency display problem, I would hope it meets your requirements for an 8.5 maintenance release.

hrgiger
11-17-2005, 05:19 PM
Personally, I've never thought that OGL transparency in modeler was that big of deal. Yes, I can confirm that OGL transparency in modeler is buggy as of 8.5, but I guess I've always just made my transparent surfaces a different color instead of needing to see the transparency in my viewports.
I guess if I hadn't already paid for my LW9 upgrade, I'd be hoping for a maintenance update for 8.5. Other then the OGL transparency issue that I noticed only after it was mentioned here on the forums, I've noticed no stability issues.

ACLOBO
11-17-2005, 07:09 PM
hrgiger,

I respect that you have no issue with the modeler display issues. However, not everybody works the same way as you and many of us like seeing what parts of out model are transparent. Regardless of how somebody works, this display issue, as well as some other bugs - and the list is long, should not be there.

Since you have already paid for 9, I understand your stance that it is not a big deal since you expect it will be fixed in the upcoming release. However, there are those of us that don't see a need to get every release. I am a bit disappointed in 8.5. The issues introduced as well as some old bugs that are still there make it hard for me to give into the 9 hype and buy out of habit. I will probably pick it up sometime, but I would like 8.5 to be a more complete patch than it seems to be. There are just a lot of issues that seem to have sprung up with this patch (take a look in the 8.5 patch sticky).

-Adrian

hrgiger
11-17-2005, 07:28 PM
Well Adrian, if you read my post again, you'll see that had I not already decided to upgrade to 9 that I probably would want a fix to my 8.5. So I'm not trying to downplay the need for a maintenance update when users feel one is needed.

I would like to hear though the reasons why transparency in OpenGL is vital. Sure, it's pretty, but I don't see the major advantage while modeling. Picking a standard color (Aqua blue) for my transparent surfaces, I know which areas will be transparent. If it's a matter of needing to see behind a surface, to me that's what hiding and/or seperate layers are for. Yes, it may be a different way that we work, I'm just trying to see the advantages. I don't see any other then visual appeal.

I understand not feeling the need to upgrade at every release. Had I to do it over again, I probably wouldn't have upgraded to 8 from 7 and would have instead waited for 9 which has the features that I feel LW has been lacking for some time. I could have saved myself some $.

Matt
11-18-2005, 04:41 AM
Well, from what I've been reading, people have high expectations for v9, seriously NT, failure is NOT an option on this release! Make sure it delivers!!!

LW3D
11-18-2005, 04:54 AM
I agree with Matt...

mkiii
11-18-2005, 06:47 AM
Ditto.

There are options & competitors out there now that weren't available for the same price in the heady days of v5.6.

I'm feeling a little depressed about the buy v9.0 if you want the bugs from v7.0 fixing attitude that I've been seeing lately. I'm also v disappointed in the lack of attention modeler has been getting in the last few versions, because that is my main reason for using LW, and nothing I have read about v9.0 has made me think things are about to improve significantly in that area. For that reason, I'm seriously considering going elswhere for the first time in almost 10 years. At the end of the day, my employers don't need LW objects, and I just use it because I thought it was the best modeler. Sad.

BeeVee
11-18-2005, 07:28 AM
Edges and ngon subpatching not important? :O

B

lardbros
11-18-2005, 08:41 AM
Yeah, sadly i agree with matt too. I hope this time round Newtek actually gets some real-world beta testers to see LW9 before it's released. The past couple of updates have been slightly depressing with the bugs that should have been noticed and simply weren't.

Anyway, as Beevee mentioned, the subpatched ngons and edges WILL be a superb addition, so long as they aren't riddled with any bugs.

Chuck
11-18-2005, 11:03 AM
There are just a lot of issues that seem to have sprung up with this patch (take a look in the 8.5 patch sticky).

-Adrian

The issues in the 8.5 Bug Workshop threads would need to first be vetted against earlier 8.x releases before any conclusions are drawn. As a matter of fact that would be pretty useful for the team in evaluating the requests for a further 8.x update.

Chuck
11-18-2005, 11:24 AM
Ditto.

There are options & competitors out there now that weren't available for the same price in the heady days of v5.6.

I'm feeling a little depressed about the buy v9.0 if you want the bugs from v7.0 fixing attitude that I've been seeing lately. I'm also v disappointed in the lack of attention modeler has been getting in the last few versions, because that is my main reason for using LW, and nothing I have read about v9.0 has made me think things are about to improve significantly in that area. For that reason, I'm seriously considering going elswhere for the first time in almost 10 years. At the end of the day, my employers don't need LW objects, and I just use it because I thought it was the best modeler. Sad.


Firstly, please do rest assured that the feedback on this topic is being heard by management. Secondly, it really is not accurate to portray the attitude of NewTek or the LightWave team as callous toward the user when in fact we have policies that no other major competitor has in terms of providing free maintenance and free enhancements to the user during a full cycle of development, such as from 8.0 to 8.5. During that time, the team provided dozens upon dozens of fixes to issues that had been standing from 7.5 and previous versions. Many companies would have charged an annual maintenance fee or upgrade prices for the customer even to receive those additional fixes, let alone adding new features and implementing a major restructure of several parts of the application; and any update with new features would have been a paid upgrade, not free. Were we as callous as you wish to portray us, none of those updates would have been free.

It is regrettable that the engineering team weren't able to address all legacy issues in the 8.x cycle, but they certainly did address a huge list of such issues, and are now fully engaged in doing their best to create one of the most worthwhile and extensive ordinal updates that LightWave has ever received, and make it worth several times the price in increased productivity and capability for the user. That includes Modeler, which is getting a great deal of work to add new tools and to streamline and improve the existing tools and workflow. We have some incredible developers working on it, including David Ikeda, renowned for the third party tools he has created for Modeler in the last few years, and who has now come aboard to join the LightWave Development team. The improvements for v9.0 and beyond are going to be a sea change for Modeler, and our goal is to make Modeler once again the premier modeling tool for digital artists in any industry.

dagdal1967
11-18-2005, 11:43 AM
Chuck,

Thanks for the reply (and all the hard work). Being a product developer myself I know how hard (read: Impossible) it is to keep everyone happy and still make what you and the industry considers "progress".

I like the idea that your goal for Modeler is to make it the industry's "Premier modeling tool". I would love to see that you guys are on the road to blowing Maya, Z-Brush and even modo out of the water.

As a hobbiest who has been using Lightwave exclusively since Version 4.0 came out, I'm behind you all the way man!

KevinL
11-18-2005, 11:47 AM
Thank you.
I have been with LW since 4.0
I find it very easy to get grumpy about software that misfires, upgrade offer cycles I just barely miss, and the investment in software that now resides on the hard drives in my junk drawer. It is the nature of this business, the trade offs between features, functionality, reliability and cost.

I have had my down days regarding newtek, specifically when interface redesign (5.6) changed my hardware requirements dramatically and I went through a lot of frustrating crashes and useability issues. This was when I grew up (a little:).... regarding software. A friend of mine who is a hard coder (ie assembly level) told me to do a cost/benefit analysis about my software.

1-Do I get work using the software? Do I make reasonable money?
2-Do I enjoy using the software? Feature sets, community, training, etc.
3-Is the company reasonably responsive to issues?
4- Is there another package that will meet my needs as well, if not better?
4a-If so (to 4) why don't I buy into there package instead?
5-DO I Benefit from this software/company relationship?

I conducted this review, much more in depth than the above synopsis, and found that my relationship with Newtek was one of the best amongst all the vendors I have associated with.

Currently, I trully appreciate the fact that Newtek and the folks who comprise it are changing with the times, staying in the game, and communicating clearly (at least by my reckoning). I say this after having been "firewalled" from direct communiction with companys such as Adobe and Dell, through the rough maze of user groups, forums and knowledge bases.

A final note, as my hard coder friend pointed out, if I trully am dissatisfied: learn to code, code perfect, and give it away. Thought not :)

I like Newtek, I like where they are going, and I wouldn't be on this playing field without em.... wave on dudes (and dudettes:)

mkiii
11-19-2005, 07:44 AM
Edges and ngon subpatching not important? :O

B

Probably, if they work properly - but I'm more concerned that long standing bugs such as those I have reported in the UV mapping, are not being fixed in favour of adding new features.

mkiii
11-19-2005, 07:57 AM
Firstly, please do rest assured that the feedback on this topic is being heard by management. Secondly, it really is not accurate to portray the attitude of NewTek or the LightWave team as callous toward the user when in fact we have policies that no other major competitor has in terms of providing free maintenance and free enhancements to the user during a full cycle of development, such as from 8.0 to 8.5. During that time, the team provided dozens upon dozens of fixes to issues that had been standing from 7.5 and previous versions. Many companies would have charged an annual maintenance fee or upgrade prices for the customer even to receive those additional fixes, let alone adding new features and implementing a major restructure of several parts of the application; and any update with new features would have been a paid upgrade, not free. Were we as callous as you wish to portray us, none of those updates would have been free.

It is regrettable that the engineering team weren't able to address all legacy issues in the 8.x cycle, but they certainly did address a huge list of such issues, and are now fully engaged in doing their best to create one of the most worthwhile and extensive ordinal updates that LightWave has ever received, and make it worth several times the price in increased productivity and capability for the user. That includes Modeler, which is getting a great deal of work to add new tools and to streamline and improve the existing tools and workflow. We have some incredible developers working on it, including David Ikeda, renowned for the third party tools he has created for Modeler in the last few years, and who has now come aboard to join the LightWave Development team. The improvements for v9.0 and beyond are going to be a sea change for Modeler, and our goal is to make Modeler once again the premier modeling tool for digital artists in any industry.

I don't remember calling anyone callous. Maybe it got lost in the translation from English to American somehow.

I am basing my presumption that modeler has not had enough attention from experience, and that it is not going to be receiving enough in 9.0 by the comments I have read here & from what has been released by Newtek.

I read that modeler in 9.0 still won't have the OGL improvements I mistakenly thought we were going to get in 8.5 for example. Am I wrong? I hope so.

How you release software is of course up to you, but you do get enourmous benefits of support from your customers when they are kept happy, so there has to be a benefit to you or you would charge for all updates. I don't think that would work out too well for anyone concerned.

Anyway. Thanks for reading me the party line. I'll just shut up about it now, and wait & see how 9.0 pans out for you guys.

MkIII Over & Out.

Matt
11-19-2005, 10:52 AM
Most software houses use the bug fixes = free / new features = money route, obviously difficult when most updates have both, but NT are pretty good at giving away free stuff!

Adobe are appauling at this, lot of money for updates, hardly any bugfix updates between major releases.

Can't talk for any other 3D packages as I've never needed to look anywhere else.

jasonazure
11-19-2005, 02:41 PM
I agree ! I have RealViz matchmover 3.0 which is very buggy (although it does get the job done .... eventually !), but when they wanted over 1000 for an upgrade to 3.1, which was basically a bug fix as far as I could tell, I couldn't believe it !!!

Needless to say, I am still using 3.0, but it still bothers me that there was hardly any free patches to fix the bugs before they wanted more money.

When I consider how much Lightwave costs for the amount of functionality you get (and how much money I've made using it), compared to how much I've spent on Matchmover, which only has one function !!! Well, I think Newtek are head and shoulders above other software companies.

Elmar Moelzer
11-19-2005, 04:16 PM
Hello!
Well personally, I am pretty excited about the addition of Ngons and Edges to Modeler.
There is still a bit of a wait and see in regards to how well this will be done in the initial version but it is definitely a BIG step into the right direction by NewTek and IMHO a very much needed and big addition to Modeler.
And for all you whiners out there, it should be prove that NewTek does listen to the requests and concerns that you, the users have posted here and elsewhere.
On brining Layouts features into Modelers OpenGL: This is not an easy issue. It is not just copying and pasting features from one app to the other. Modelers OpenGL - code is TOTALLY different from Layouts. Two different apps, two different purposes and different programmers that worked on them initially.
In addition to this Modelers OpenGL is a signifficant part of the app. E.g. selection (among many other not so obvious things) is located in this part of Modelers code. Therefore it is very difficult to merge the OpenGL code for Modeler and Layout. However I am sure that some development in underway in this regard (they will have to bring Modeler OpenGL- features over to Layout if they want to make most Modeler plugis work in Layout), from there it might be easier to bring the two together...
In any case this is a huge change to Modeler and not just something that can be done quickly and it will require a lot of testing if you dont want to have more of those nasty little critters, called bugs...
And of course all this might affect performance, so again more attention has to be payed to that.
Knowing most of the members of the dev- team I am sure they very carefull with all this and will pay attention to all this. This is IMHO the right approach.
:I_Love_Ne
CU
Elmar

Nemoid
11-20-2005, 01:47 AM
Its cool to hear Nt is working towards an unification of open GL for both Modeler and Layout. this means we should be at another step closer to full integration between the two apps, if not for 9.0 , in 9.x cycle.
Not an easy job for sure given the fact that modeler and layout s open GL are totally different.
from what i understood from the feature list,tho, we should be able to select points and polygons in layout at least? :lwicon: