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blacksmith3D
11-08-2005, 01:20 PM
In layout, you can specify a displacement map for the whole object, but is it possible to specify a displacement map for an individual material? Can the map be specified in Modeller?

Dave

toby
11-08-2005, 02:45 PM
What you can do is make a uv or weight map in modeler, then apply your displacement to the whole object in Layout , and use the uv or a weight map-type gradient set to alpha to matte out the displacement in certain areas.

Dodgy
11-08-2005, 03:07 PM
You can't use a map as a displacement map directly, but you can apply it in the bump channel, and then in the Items properties panel make the object use the Bump as a displacement...

blacksmith3D
11-08-2005, 04:38 PM
Ah, so the bump map method is the only way to do a per-material displacement map in LW? Thanks for the info :)

Dave

StereoMike
11-08-2005, 04:47 PM
have you seen, what the silo-guys will release with 2.0?
http://www.nevercenter.com/silo/silo_20/silo_20_arm.jpg

you can draw displacements onto modells to get details like veins etc. look like "zbrush light" to me.

Can we have it, too Mr Newtek?

toby
11-08-2005, 10:33 PM
have you seen, what the silo-guys will release with 2.0?


you can draw displacements onto modells to get details like veins etc. look like "zbrush light" to me.

Can we have it, too Mr Newtek?
That's been do-able in LW for a years now!

Make a Morph that fattens the object
Paint on the base object with Airbrush set to the Morph map

StereoMike
11-09-2005, 01:15 AM
Noo, that soo last century :neener:

Look at the picture, you can see the splinecage of the arm, and they brush it ON TOP. In modeler you would need actual geometry to deform it like that, and that would boost your polycount.

toby
11-09-2005, 01:26 AM
Wait, you're saying LW can't do it because it did it a long time ago? Unless it's normal mapped or bump, it is a higher poly count. There's no other way. When you do it in Z-brush, it's a higher poly count.

Captain Obvious
11-09-2005, 01:35 AM
What he means is that painting deformation in Modeler is on the vertex level. With a subd mesh, there is more geometry there, you just can't edit it without real vertices. True displacement mapping doesn't have this problem.

StereoMike
11-09-2005, 02:15 AM
thanks, yes, in silo's displacement painting you won't edit the subd vertices, but a control grid.

From the video:
"Silo's displacement painting works by interactivly displacing the surface on different sudivision levels. The grid has a 25-polygon control mesh. Note that you can always still edit the base mesh."

So it's neither normal mapped or bumped but something like "adaptive subdivisions for modeler".
If 9.0 get adaptive subds in layout, than it must be possible in modeler, or what?

link to silo video:
http://www.nevercenter.com/videos/index.php?vidclip=silo_20_displacement.mov

blacksmith3D
11-09-2005, 05:00 PM
The program(s) that I am adapting to lightwave include a 3D painting package, where you can paint direcly onto the model. In the case of displacement maps, you can paint veins, etc. It currently has two separate channels for bump maps and displacement maps. For lighwavers, we'll have to emphasize that they should use the bump map, and then choose the "use bump map as displacement map" option.

Dave

toby
11-10-2005, 01:50 AM
Adaptive subdivision is the process of only subdividing where it's needed to keep the surface smooth. Maya does this but the Silo video shows the mesh fully subdivided at all times. It's only slightly different from what LW can do, controlling vertices within the subd ploygon.

StereoMike
11-10-2005, 05:03 AM
Adaptive subdivision is the process of only subdividing where it's needed to keep the surface smooth. Maya does this but the Silo video shows the mesh fully subdivided at all times. It's only slightly different from what LW can do, controlling vertices within the subd ploygon.

Man, show me how you do the things seen in the video without raising the number of vertices, and I stop bothering. It's not a simple bumpmap.

Thing is, you can't do it right now, regardless, "how close" lightwave is.
you have to implement a way to paint displacement onto the object in modeler.
You're right, lw could handle it (think of the one-poly landscape in the content folder), but right now, you have no way to get it done like silo.

Here's the idea to get it done in LW:

1. we need displacement maps in modeler.
2. either you would make a uv map for yourself or modeler does it in case you start painting a displacement map.
3. you start a tool similar to "uv_chalk" but this time you won't paint with colors onto the uv map, but with displacement, with realtime openGL.

Hardest thing is the "displacement in modeler" part, I guess. That can only be done by newtek.

toby
11-10-2005, 10:32 PM
If you subdivide the mesh to the same density as in Silo, you can paint the same displacement via the morph. The only difference is that in LW you have to add a morph, and you can't go back and manipulate the low-res mesh. But you can do it. You can also use the Airbrush to paint a weight map, which is just as good as a displacement map, and use that with most of the modify tools, or with a gradient in layout.

blacksmith3D
11-14-2005, 02:07 PM
I believe that the whole point to having a displacement map is that you can paint all of these small details, without adding additional geometry. You can always subdivide an object to have 1,000,000 polygons and then morph the tiny details, but then you get another set of issues such as RAM consumption, slow rendering, etc. The good thing about a real displacement map is that it acts just like a texture map, where you only see the fine details when you render it.

StereoMike
11-14-2005, 02:21 PM
Yes, I think so too. I don't know how the Silo way feels when it's released, but I think LW could do it quite well, if Newtek add some little features to make it possible.

The way of ramping up the subdivisions isn't handy, and I've never seen anyone who said he uses this workaround of painting a morph in modeler to get his models done.

"Artisan"-like modeling...no way...

LW can't do what is seen on this video. But I wish it could. So I'll make a feature request.

Mike

toby
11-14-2005, 07:07 PM
I don't understand, does Silo do adaptive subdivision, where it only subdivides where needed? If not, then it achieves the displacement with just as many more polygons as LW. That's what it looks like in the video.

StereoMike
11-15-2005, 01:54 AM
No one has had his hands on the feature yet, but if I interpret things right, they subd it on the fly. And if not... then LW should do it this way :)

toby
11-15-2005, 11:07 PM
Watch the video again, where he starts on the arm with un-subpatched polygons. He subdivides the whole mesh twice and starts painting. At no point do you see polygons subdivide any further, until he stops painting and subdivides the entire mesh again, and paints some more. Then, before he zooms in to paint veins, he subdivides the whole mesh yet again.

I have to conclude that there's no adaptive subdivision, and that when he says 'no extra geometry required', he means you don't have to build veins on top of the mesh. And yes of course adaptive subdivision would be great to have.

blacksmith3D
12-28-2005, 05:10 PM
I just noticed that in Lightwave 7.5d, I cannot use custom UV's in conjuction with "Bump Displacement". I can use Spherical and cylindrical mappings (for the bump channel), but if I attempt to use UV, then I do not get the proper results.

The "normal displacement" deformer works great, but it can only be applied to a whole object and not a specific surface. I read a few threads here and there on the net about this, but I did not find a good answer.

Any ideas?
Dave

Fozz
12-28-2005, 05:26 PM
Might not help you out here, but I once did a tree with modelled bark by creating a bumpmap out of photo of some bark, converted to a weightmap in Modeler, mapped it to the tree object and then used Stretch set to Weightmap mode so only the bark pieces stretched outwards. Probably the closest thing to dispmaps in Modeler.

Sensei
12-28-2005, 11:57 PM
In layout, you can specify a displacement map for the whole object, but is it possible to specify a displacement map for an individual material? Can the map be specified in Modeller?

Yes, you can do it with our TrueBump http://truebump.trueart.pl and much more, please visit site and download example movies..

If somebody is interested in this you could to 1.1.2006 get it for free for pre-ordering EasySpline.. But mail [email protected] informing that you want TrueBump instead of EasySplit!

You could read more about pre-orders here:
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44059
http://www.spinquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10104

blacksmith3D
12-29-2005, 08:42 AM
Hey Sensei,

That looks like a great plug-in. I am however, looking for how to do it so the subdivision only takes place at render time. In this way, the polygons only have to subdivided at render time.

The "Normal Displacement" modified in Layout works great (in conjunction with subdivision), however, can only be applied to the whole mesh. The "Bump Displacement" option does not work properly for UV mapped obects, although it seems to work OK for spherical and cylindrical mapping.

Unless anyone can tell me how to apply a displacement map to an individual surface, subdivide at render time only, and have it displace along the normals, use custom UV's, I will conclude that it is not possible with Lightwave at the moment.

Dave

p.s. I may be forced to create a plugin for LW Layout if the demand is high enough.

toby
12-29-2005, 08:44 PM
When you say "so the subdivision only takes place at render time. In this way, the polygons only have to subdivided at render time." is that any different than setting the display subpatch level to 0?

There's also a texture button the Normal Displacement panel, and it seems to take UV's ok, maybe try that?

ercaxus
12-29-2005, 09:59 PM
When you say "so the subdivision only takes place at render time. In this way, the polygons only have to subdivided at render time." is that any different than setting the display subpatch level to 0?

There's also a texture button the Normal Displacement panel, and it seems to take UV's ok, maybe try that?
The diplacement can be localized by using UV maps but subdivision is going to be applied to the whole object. It would be awesome if we could paint a weight map to define wich area gets subdivided more.

toby
12-29-2005, 10:35 PM
So he is talking about adaptive subdivision. Yea that would be sweet.

Could it be that the program just needs to run a 'Merge Coplanar Polygons' function after freezing the mesh? I'm probably over-simplifying it - but maybe sometime in the LW9 cycle they'll add that, I'm sure you need n-gon sub-Ds for it to work anyway.

ercaxus
12-30-2005, 03:52 AM
So he is talking about adaptive subdivision. Yea that would be sweet.

Could it be that the program just needs to run a 'Merge Coplanar Polygons' function after freezing the mesh? I'm probably over-simplifying it - but maybe sometime in the LW9 cycle they'll add that, I'm sure you need n-gon sub-Ds for it to work anyway.
toby, I didn't actually mean to quote your post but the one above that. Sorry I'm extremely dumb tonight :lol:

edit: or did I? Okay I'm going to sleep. Sorry :D

blacksmith3D
12-30-2005, 09:39 AM
The normal displacement deformer works great, however it is applied to the whole mesh. I would like to apply displacement maps to individual surfaces, just like you can for bump maps, etc.

Just so you all know, I am looking for this information because I am working on a plug-in that will integerate Lightwave with other programs which uses displacement maps as a surface attribute, just like bump maps, color maps, etc.

Are there any third party deformer plug-ins that will take the bump channel(s) and perform a normal displacement using the UV mapping? This combinded with the subdivision at render time would make a suitable work around.

Dave

toby
12-30-2005, 03:30 PM
I just tried a UV map in the Normal Displacement plug-in and it works. It doesn't allow you to paste UV layers from other places though, you have to add it manually. This can localize the displacement, but not the subdivision.

Can you clarify what you mean by "subdivision at render time"? Two possible meanings have been discussed, one possible in LW and one not. If you just want LW to wait until rendertime before subdividing, set the 'display' subpatch to 0 in object properties. If you want LW to only subdivide where needed, it cannot do this yet, and I don't think it's possible for a plug-in to do it.

blacksmith3D
12-30-2005, 04:11 PM
When I say "subdivide at render time", I mean setting the "Render Subpatch Level" to a value higher than the "Display Subpatch Level", which works great.

Indeed the Normal Displacement plug-in works great, but you cannot apply to it to a particular surface (e.g if you have a human model, you can't just apply it to the lips, skin or any other surface/material). It works on the entire object only (correct me if I am wrong).

Dave

toby
12-30-2005, 05:38 PM
When I say "subdivide at render time", I mean setting the "Render Subpatch Level" to a value higher than the "Display Subpatch Level", which works great.

Indeed the Normal Displacement plug-in works great, but you cannot apply to it to a particular surface (e.g if you have a human model, you can't just apply it to the lips, skin or any other surface/material). It works on the entire object only (correct me if I am wrong).

Dave
You're right, you can't apply it to a particular surface, but you can make a UV map for the whole body and create a map that only displaces where you want it to - so for the lips you would have a map that was black everywhere except for where the lip uv coordinates are.

ercaxus
12-30-2005, 06:16 PM
Indeed the Normal Displacement plug-in works great, but you cannot apply to it to a particular surface (e.g if you have a human model, you can't just apply it to the lips, skin or any other surface/material). It works on the entire object only (correct me if I am wrong).
Dave

If you mean that it would be cool to have the option to limit the size of the displaced area by using surface or part names, I agree, but if you mean it is not possible to displace an area because Normal Displacement plug-in displaces all of the object, then I don't agree. You can have Normal Displacement plug-in displacing only the desired area by using UV maps.

Thinking about this, actually it would be cool to paint an alpha channel for the displacement realtime(or paint anything anywhere) in LW. It wouldn't hurt if it could do everything that Zbrush does.:D Maybe I don't have to buy zbrush :)

blacksmith3D
01-01-2006, 10:39 AM
Ah yes that is possible. However, the workflow is a bit different when it comes to compatibility with other apps. With other apps like 3D Studio Max, etc, you can simply assign a displacement map to a material (surface). To keep eveything in sync, it would be nice to be able to do the same with LW.

Thank you very much for the advice (creating a UV map just for the specific area). If all else fails, I will simply have to add something to the documentation explaining the differences and how to setup the displacement map in LW manually.

Thanks for the advice, and any more insights would be appreciated as well,
Dave