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3dworks
11-01-2005, 02:28 AM
good news: finally we have hardware GL shading on the mac too! after updating to 10.4.3 it works!!! activate 'GLSL HW shading' in display options and ...voilà! :)

don't know if all features are supported, because the 'opengl extensions viewer' reports that all of the open-gl 2.0 features but the 'GL_ARB_draw_buffers' and 'GL_ARB_texture_non_power_of_two' are supported. but i can see procedurals and spotlights clearly.

this all happens on an ATI radeon 9800 pro mac special edition and the 9650 card. have to test on my nvidia card and will tell you later...

edit: there's also a first related bug report in the mac bugs area...

Darth Mole
11-01-2005, 03:09 AM
So is it full OGL 2.0 compatibility do you think? Can't wait to test my X800 XT when I get home!

BazC
11-01-2005, 05:27 AM
What about OGL speed, any improvement do you think?

3dworks
11-01-2005, 07:13 AM
What about OGL speed, any improvement do you think?

cannot tell without a specific benchmark, but subjectively i would say no. but anyway, the hardware shading feature turned on slows open-gl down, of course...

mike_stening
11-01-2005, 08:41 AM
looking in the frameworks OpenGL is listed as 1.4.6 (well 1.4.6.2.0 to be exact)
with the shaders on it is really slow
though early use seems Photoshop is a little smoother

Darth Mole
11-01-2005, 12:14 PM
Hoo boy, it's like taking your card out and going back to software shading. On a 68000 PPC. So THIS is what all the fuss was about? Slowing your machine to a crawl?

Nice feature, but I can live without destroying my OGL performance...

Darth Mole
11-01-2005, 12:29 PM
Okay, it's pretty cool for small models with gradients/procedurals etc, but on a detailed object with lots of texture maps, it really kills the OGL. Although it does look good!

Is there any way to have the On/Off button attached to a hotkey?

P.S. Just tried to edit my previous post, but now I can't save the amended text - is this a new feature of Safari 2.0.2?

BazC
11-01-2005, 01:22 PM
cannot tell without a specific benchmark, but subjectively i would say no. but anyway, the hardware shading feature turned on slows open-gl down, of course...


Thanks for the info! :( I'd much rather the OGL was up to Windows performance and do without these fancy OGL2 features! :(

Captain Obvious
11-01-2005, 02:22 PM
Actually, the big issue with Mac OpenGL is a lack of support, not bad performance. Mac OpenGL has one of the best texture upload speeds in the industry, for example. At least according to what I've heard from OpenGL developers using Macs; I'm not one myself. Either way, OpenGL Extensions Viewer reports that ARB_draw_buffers and the any-resolution textures are unsupported for me. GLSL is there, though.

BazC
11-01-2005, 03:44 PM
Actually, the big issue with Mac OpenGL is a lack of support, not bad performance.

You mean poor GFX card drivers? If that was the case I would think Apple could write their own, it's not like they supply a huge range with their machines lol!

I'm not arguing with you, I haven't a clue what the problem is lol! It just irritates that it doesn't seem to be improving. I heard that Apple hired OGL specialists when the appalling performance of DOOM3 was reported on Macs but they don't seem to have acheived much yet! - Baz

Ade
11-01-2005, 04:10 PM
So what does this mean for mac lw users?
Didnt newtek have to update our 8.5 for hardware shader support or does it automatically activate when open gl activeated it?

3dworks
11-02-2005, 02:03 AM
So what does this mean for mac lw users?
Didnt newtek have to update our 8.5 for hardware shader support or does it automatically activate when open gl activeated it?

if your card supports it, and if you updated to 10.4.3, simply set it in the display options. but maybe there are some issues (see bug reports). maybe newtek can optimize something here too - now that the release version of OSX with updated opengl is available.

you can test your card with the free 'openGL extensions viewer' (look with google or versiontracker)...

Darth Mole
11-02-2005, 03:33 AM
I was surprised how few procedural algorithms work with it. Out of a list of about 20+ procedual patterns I think there are only four or five which work properly. Hopefully, this is on NT's ever-increasing to-do list...

ackees
11-02-2005, 10:51 AM
I was surprised how few procedural algorithms work with it. Out of a list of about 20+ procedual patterns I think there are only four or five which work properly. Hopefully, this is on NT's ever-increasing to-do list...
All bar four seem to work on my machine.
Those that don't worl are:
Crumple
Crust
Fractal noise
Veins
There is a lag between a new setting and the display performance. But if you wait a little (give LW or the card time to adjust it seems to work – haven't tried on any complex scenes yet).

marlo.steed
11-02-2005, 05:06 PM
activate 'GLSL HW shading' in display options and ...voilà! :)


Sorry I don't see anything that looks like a GLSL HW Shading option in the Display Options of Lightwave. That option is not on my version of Ligtwave (8.5 on a Powerbook OSX 10.4.3).

Any suggestions?

gerry_g
11-02-2005, 05:37 PM
Sorry I don't see anything that looks like a GLSL HW Shading option in the Display Options of Lightwave. That option is not on my version of Ligtwave (8.5 on a Powerbook OSX 10.4.3).

Any suggestions?

Display Options in LAYOUT is where you need to look, this is a layout only feature, about halfway down on the right hand side marked
GSLS turn on Open GL Transparency too (next one down) for the full effect, but be warned that one really is a redraw time killer doubly so for Power book with a lower spec card.

3dworks
11-03-2005, 01:00 AM
All bar four seem to work on my machine.
Those that don't worl are:
Crumple
Crust
Fractal noise
Veins
There is a lag between a new setting and the display performance. But if you wait a little (give LW or the card time to adjust it seems to work – haven't tried on any complex scenes yet).

question: what 'machine'?

ackees
11-03-2005, 01:57 AM
question: what 'machine'?
I am running an old G4 dual 1G, with 1.5G RAM
But I stuck a new ATI 9800 256MB pro in to give it a little more life until I see what apple will be doing with the new Macs. Check you have the latest ATI drivers.
PS. Some guy changed the chip on the card which was originally for the PC to make it work on the Mac G4, the standard G4 cards are only 128MB.

gerry_g
11-03-2005, 03:51 AM
I am running an old G4 dual 1G, with 1.5G RAM
But I stuck a new ATI 9800 256MB pro in to give it a little more life until I see what apple will be doing with the new Macs. Check you have the latest ATI drivers.
PS. Some guy changed the chip on the card which was originally for the PC to make it work on the Mac G4, the standard G4 cards are only 128MB.

Could have a point here, on my old G4 I had a non Apple Radion, and most times there was a service upgrade to the OS it only covered drivers for the OEM BTO version not the 'Retail' version and I'd have to plough through ATI's site myself to find them.

Tony3d
11-03-2005, 04:09 AM
Your looking in modeler. Try Lightwave's layout.

marlo.steed
11-03-2005, 02:07 PM
It is still not working for me even in Layout. Am I to assume my card doesn't support it? G4 Powerbook 1GHz

ATY,RV250M9:

Chipset Model: ATY,RV250M9
Type: Display
Bus: AGP
VRAM (Total): 64 MB
Vendor: ATI (0x1002)
Device ID: 0x4c66
Revision ID: 0x0001
ROM Revision: 113-xxxxx-106

All I get is a glowing object no matter what I change (if I turn OpenGL Multi-texturing off then I get the regular shaded view).

gerry_g
11-03-2005, 02:50 PM
It is still not working for me even in Layout. Am I to assume my card doesn't support it? G4 Powerbook 1GHz .

I know when Tiger was first launched Quartz Extreme support was limited to a very small number of graphics cards, none of which were usable in a power book or Mac mini for that matter, so if this open GL upgrade is an extension of that same architecture you could be out of luck, try Apples knowledge base web site. Anyway sooner or later there's bound to be a Radion Mobility that does support it.

ackees
11-03-2005, 03:31 PM
It is still not working for me even in Layout. Am I to assume my card doesn't support it? G4 Powerbook 1GHz

ATY,RV250M9:

Chipset Model: ATY,RV250M9
Type: Display
Bus: AGP
VRAM (Total): 64 MB
Vendor: ATI (0x1002)
Device ID: 0x4c66
Revision ID: 0x0001
ROM Revision: 113-xxxxx-106

All I get is a glowing object no matter what I change (if I turn OpenGL Multi-texturing off then I get the regular shaded view).
Even if it did support it 64MB VRAM is just not enough, I'd guess you need at least 128MB.

LSlugger
11-03-2005, 06:02 PM
It is still not working for me even in Layout. Am I to assume my card doesn't support it? G4 Powerbook 1GHz

ATY,RV250M9:

Chipset Model: ATY,RV250M9
Type: Display
Bus: AGP
VRAM (Total): 64 MB
Vendor: ATI (0x1002)
Device ID: 0x4c66
Revision ID: 0x0001
ROM Revision: 113-xxxxx-106

A quick google indicates that this is a Radeon 9000, which likely does not support GLSL. You can download the OpenGL Extensions Viewer (http://www.realtech-vr.com/glview/) to confirm.

ackees
11-04-2005, 03:03 AM
Here's a shot of the changes in OpenGL.
Interestingly on the extensions viewer test I can see that bump is also available but NT haven't implemented it yet. Another thing, play with them all and then reboot, everything then seems to work better, it's as though something needs to be saved in a buffer somewhere for LW. The test also shows a 77% OpenGL support, so at a guess when we have 100% from apple then all the procedurals will show up.

Darth Mole
11-04-2005, 05:09 AM
All bar four seem to work on my machine.
Those that don't worl are:
Crumple
Crust
Fractal noise
Veins
There is a lag between a new setting and the display performance. But if you wait a little (give LW or the card time to adjust it seems to work – haven't tried on any complex scenes yet).

Sorry - I forgot I have IFW2 shaders installed so I have loads of third party algorithms in there!

I'd LOVE to see the bump mapping turned on. How cool would that be?

ackees
11-05-2005, 01:07 AM
Sorry - I forgot I have IFW2 shaders installed so I have loads of third party algorithms in there!
I'd LOVE to see the bump mapping turned on. How cool would that be?

Yea, you don't have to be a genius to know the power of switching on the bump in OpenGL and adding a simple paint tool in LW to paint the bump on models in real time. WOW! 9.0 maybe?

Captain Obvious
11-05-2005, 04:25 AM
I know when Tiger was first launched Quartz Extreme support was limited to a very small number of graphics cards, none of which were usable in a power book or Mac mini for that matter, so if this open GL upgrade is an extension of that same architecture you could be out of luck, try Apples knowledge base web site. Anyway sooner or later there's bound to be a Radion Mobility that does support it.
Small nitpick: Quarts Extreme was introduced with Jaguar (10.2). Quartz 2D Extreme was a new feature of Tiger, but it has not yet been enabled by default. Also, Quartz 2D Extreme doesn't have anything to do with GLSL.

marlo.steed
11-05-2005, 05:48 PM
Thanks LSlugger for that little utility - quite useful. Got the following results by testing out the Graphics card in my Powerbook G4:

marlo.steed
11-05-2005, 05:58 PM
Using the OpenGL Extensions Viewer - just out of curiosity, I switched to Apple Software render (down the Render menu) and got the following test results (of course much slower as well): .... curious