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lardbros
10-27-2005, 03:28 PM
Hi guys and gals...
i have just had a pretty disturbing thing happen. A guy (who i have done freelance work for before) phoned me up asking if i would like to work on some housing project, and said
"I have someone else who can do architecture stuff too, but i'm not too keen on him so am asking you first"

Great i thought... then he said "His work is pretty incredible"

So i asked if he could forward this guys examples of work, so i could see what i was up against!

Anyway, i took a look at the work, and i was pretty gobsmacked, it's stunning!! BUT when i got to the last piccy, i thought hang on, i've seen this one before... and it was on these forums!

I searched the forum for the Tokyo subway image, and found the thread. It CERTAINLY wasn't the guys name who was claiming it was his work. The original image was done by the very talented Gerald Abraham, and it was published in some book by Ballistic.

So this guy who was applying to do some freelance work, was sending out images of other peoples work claiming it was his! The work he was sending out wasn't just nice architectural work... it was THE CREAM OF THE CROP. Some of the best images i've ever seen!

Now this gets me even more irate than pirate software users, how on earth do they think they can get away with it? Surely when it comes to the crunch they won't be able to deliver anyway!!!

UN-BE-BLOODY-LIEVABLE!!!

Just in case i'm wrong and this James Barry is an agent for the people who make these images (which i very much doubt indeed) then i'm sorry. But i searched for this guys name and the internet came up blank... no nice 3d art by anyone called that. Surely if he was that talented, he would have an online portfolio?

Titus
10-27-2005, 05:22 PM
So what? anyone trying to get jobs with other's people images will need to show with real work his talent. Just show to your client where the stolen images came.

MooseDog
10-27-2005, 08:19 PM
SO What?!

Lardbros has been put at a competitive disadvantage by a competitors mendacity. That's food on his table and a roof over his head.

I agree, Lardbros, do as much research as possible, then expose the fraud to your potential client, ask for his help in further exposing the fraud (if he likes you, prob won't be a problem for him), and anyone who will listen.

It's just me, but w/o a ton of references and proof, I'd be careful about bandying the fraud's name about publicly.

Good luck.

riki
10-27-2005, 11:29 PM
Some people lie all the time to get jobs, especially in any tech related sector. I knew this girl once, a friend of my Ex. If you asked her "can you use a cash register?" she say yes. If you asked "do you have a drivers licence and a clean driving record?" again she'd say yes.

The key here for employers and contractors, you need to check before you hand over the company van and the keys to the till :)

SplineGod
10-28-2005, 01:30 AM
Ive seen even worse then that. I knew of a situation where this guy had a demo reel full of animations lifted from other peoples websites. He claimed he did them all and was hired as a vfx supervisor. When the company found out and eventually they do he was fired. Its ridiculous but it happens. It can sure much things up for legit people.

Lamont
10-28-2005, 02:21 AM
I got a demo reel that was full of 3DS Max content CD artwork, and a re-textured Hitman character.

It's really hard to check up on some artist as an employer, but the artist who are in the trenches doing the work would have a keen eye for who did what.

But eventually they will be found out. So if they are willing to screw their name up, so be it. Word travels fast on the net.

tischbein3
10-28-2005, 03:43 AM
I agree, Lardbros, do as much research as possible, then expose the fraud to your potential client, ask for his help in further exposing the fraud (if he likes you, prob won't be a problem for him), and anyone who will listen.

It's just me, but w/o a ton of references and proof, I'd be careful about bandying the fraud's name about publicly.

Good luck.

My two cents on this:

I agree, stealing work is definitve the worst thing wich can happen towards a creative person, but just a note on this:

I wouldn't make it such a big issue towards your client: Inform him, that you think his work is stolen, and if he shows real interest, come up with two or three examples.
But keep the whole thing on a calm, professional level, trying to avoid getting him "involved" in the whole issue as much as possible.

Such issues allways causes trouble, and clients doesn't like trouble...

About making it public: If you are 100% (and I mean 100%) sure, IMHO theres nothing wrong posting the issue publically with some proof....

I would rather go the following way, (especially if there is a certain uncertainity, or you just doesn't want to be guy making it public):
Write an email towards this guy stating that you know what he is doing, and if he does not stop doing it, you will make it a public issue.
Depending on how he reacts you can plan further actions.

and keep us up to date (because I have to admit, there is a certain "entertainment" in such threads)....

bluworld
10-28-2005, 04:57 AM
I might suggest your client asks this guy for references so he can check out his past employment and character.
You can then say to your client you think some of the work is not his own (which you can provide evidence for if required) and would advise your client, if he decides to use this guy to check his employment references thoroughly.

That way you are being honest with your client and not sounding like you are just trying to get the business to go your way. The decision of who to choose still lies with the client.

If you wanted more evidence, you could contact this guy directly and say you are representing an interested party and require references from past employers. If he is who he says he will have no problem providing good references that can easily be ratified.

Personally, I'm not sure you should involve the client in 'exposing this guy' as such - although I agree it is a breach of copyright and an act of plagiarism if he is doing this. But be very careful what you write about him - if you are wrong he will have a case for libel.

mattclary
10-28-2005, 05:18 AM
It sounds like your potential client's bullsh*t meter was already giving him a reading, I don't think you will have any problem when you show him the subway shot here on the forum.

It takes really huge balls to do something like this. You know there is no way people like that can produce the level of work they are stealing, so it has to come back to bite them some day.

lardbros
10-28-2005, 06:19 AM
Thanks for the responses... i don't blame it on the client whatsoever... he's only the middle man really, he gets me work almost like an agent.

I don't need any more proof than these two images. Exspecially the subway one... unless Balistic Publishing have printed it under the worng artist.

ANYWAY... if this guy was as good as the images he's showing around, he would surely have a website. This Gerald Abraham does training DVD's for Kurv studios etc which i found out just by searching on the net. I truly believe that the fraudulent guy didn't create that subway image. I remember the thread on this forum a while back, and although the images are no longer present... it wasn't the guys name.

If anyone wants me to post all the images he sent to my client/agent bloke, then feel free to ask, it could be interesting to see if anyone has seen the others or not.

I have been 100% concise with the poor client. I explained to him
that i think i have seen it before, and that i'm not sure that this guy had produced it. Anyway, he didn't like the guy for being way too pushy. I don't put any blame on the clients part whatsoever... and if the guy has done the work, then he's the better man for the job, the work is incredible.


Search for Gerald Abraham to find the tokyo subway scene he did.

lardbros
10-28-2005, 06:31 AM
The only reason i named the guy here was because i am 99% sure anyway... take a look at this image:

and this CGtalk thread... CGtalk thread of Tokyo Subway (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=172095&highlight=gerald+abraham)

Also Gerald Abraham has a profile on Newtek, clearly a bloody good artist!

Only problem is, now that my client has seen this unbelievable work, i will have to do something like it to impress. Although even getting something half as good will be good enough! :D

mattclary
10-28-2005, 07:15 AM
Be funny if he asked you, "So, do you know how I can get ahold of this Gerald Abraham guy?" LOL! :)

lardbros
10-28-2005, 08:37 AM
Be funny if he asked you, "So, do you know how I can get ahold of this Gerald Abraham guy?" LOL! :)

Hahaha, yeah it would!! Wouldn't blame him!

Celshader
10-28-2005, 11:58 AM
For what it's worth...this kinda stuff goes on outside of 3D, too. I remember reading a Mark Evanier story years ago about a similar situaton. He hired an artist with an incredible portfolio to illustrate a comic book...only to find out too late that the guy had passed off the work of Al Williamson (http://www.lambiek.net/williamson_a.htm) as his own.

This happened decades ago, so I guess this kinda thing isn't new. :(

tischbein3
10-29-2005, 01:23 AM
The only reason i named the guy here was because i am 99% sure anyway...
Also Gerald Abraham has a profile on Newtek, clearly a bloody good artist!


well in this case it would be quite fair to contact gerald and inform him about this fraud.

lardbros
10-29-2005, 01:59 AM
Yeah, i know, but i'm a nice guy really. I'd rather just scare them a bit so they messed their pants. Legal action is going a bit far, too many people take people to court on a whim these days.

Like the woman sueing for damages when she received 3 paper cuts at work. Could only happen in america!

KrisYoung1980
11-01-2005, 07:20 AM
I agree, I think the one person that should be contacted about this situation is Gerald Abraham, if it is his work then I'm sure he will quite happily do all he can to expose the fraudster, keeping your hands (and more importantly, your clients) relatively clean of the whole affair.

Bog
11-02-2005, 04:02 PM
Rank practise. Find a tree and nail the bastard to it. Really.

I still get the arse when I see people rendering demo scenes into their showreels, but to take the work of a practicing commercial artist and pass it off as one's own... that's below contemptable, that's scum.

The cry of "Oh, but I could do that if it was a paid job!" is one that makes me want to bite huge chunks out of my desk.

Dob him in, Lardbros - for the life you save may be your own.

lardbros
11-02-2005, 04:09 PM
It is the right thing to do really, it'll save us lot in the end! I'm just gobsmacked that someone can have the bottle to actually do it. I would take a guess and say that he doesn't have a clue about the industry, uses illegal software, and needs to be taught a lesson or two on malpractice. Believe me, it makes be bloody angry too, but i'm waiting on a response from the agent bloke i do work for to see if he gets anything from him. The biggest sh*tter in the whole thing is that my agent guy almost showed one of his clients these pieces of work saying someone he has on his books can do it. Fine, i may be able to stretch myself and do something half as good, but these images are the industry's BEST, bar none.

You're right though, the guy would be best behind bars for a week or two... that'll teach him.

Bog
11-02-2005, 04:21 PM
Lardbros,

I don't envy you, mate - it's an unpleasant position to be in, truly horrible. But for all the slack we may wish to cut our fellow wavers, claiming another bloke's work as one's own is far past the line.

You're obviously a decent chap, or you wouldn't be pulling your own self over the coals for someone else's wrongdoing. Good on you for that, sir - but it would be a greater wrong to let this person keep up his practice. Don't let this cost you any sleep.

Treybor
11-02-2005, 04:26 PM
I've had this happen more than once in the last few years. Most recnetly with my Serenity mesh.
http://www.seansgallery.com/cgi-bin/showpicture.cgi?picture=Ser_big_1024x768&menu=34

A guy over at renderosity claimed he modeled and modified the mesh. This is more frustrating than I care to say. :twak:
He has since recinded the statement and apologized, but I'm still annoyed that people feel they have to claim other people's work as their own.... :agree:

Bog
11-02-2005, 04:31 PM
Case in point.

As a (rabid) Firefly fan, I can imagine - quite clearly - how much work you've put into that mesh, dude. I understand you built a lot of it on a low-powered laptop. Oh, golly.

Our work - our art - is the mark we leave on the world. It's our way to light some candles in the darkness, and to try to leave the planet a bit better than we found it.

It's what we've got, you know? Even if it's thumb-fingered fiddlings, there's nothing more personal than the art we create.

lardbros
11-02-2005, 04:32 PM
Oh blimey, :D i won't lose sleep over this. It may be different if i relied on freelance work to live, but it's just done in my free time at the moment. I don't tend to let things bug me anyhow, but this just got on my mammaries a bit.

I work hard trying to do some half decent work, when others dont even try, yet they'll get the jobs or more interest from the people who just don't have a clue. Shame, but maybe i'll drop Gerald Abraham (the original aritist) a line, unless someone else has done the honours?

Cheers,
Tim

jeremyhardin
11-02-2005, 06:03 PM
the folks at work here inform me that they get faked/stolen-work reels all the time. sad. seems it's more common than i thought.

Darrell
11-02-2005, 07:40 PM
I sometimes ponder the idea of people stealing other artist work to get employment...but I didn't think some was crazy enough to do it...which now begs the question: should I as an artist provide source files with my demo reel? I'm finishing up my degree as a computer animator & I want studios/companies to know my work is legit and that I'm a serious artist

colkai
11-03-2005, 02:38 AM
Even if it's thumb-fingered fiddlings, there's nothing more personal than the art we create.
That would be me then :p Good job I play guitar better than I draw. ;)

Even so, if I found one of my ickle models /redners being used and claimed as someone elses, I'd feel the need to select my weapon of choice from my wall. :twak:

Celshader
11-03-2005, 07:30 AM
Even so, if I found one of my ickle models /redners being used and claimed as someone elses, I'd feel the need to select my weapon of choice from my wall. :twak:

Heh. You could borrow that beautiful bird (http://spinquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8333). ;););)

*once read Stephen King's The Dark Tower (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=cuthbert+david+falcon+weapon+cort&btnG=Search)...*

colkai
11-03-2005, 12:44 PM
Heh, Aye, that's do it ;) She can be quite fiesty too, though I'd be worried about ruffling her feathers. :)
Could always borrow my friends Golden Eagle, 9 lbs of pure agression :p

etobiason
11-03-2005, 02:02 PM
I sometimes ponder the idea of people stealing other artist work to get employment...but I didn't think some was crazy enough to do it...which now begs the question: should I as an artist provide source files with my demo reel? I'm finishing up my degree as a computer animator & I want studios/companies to know my work is legit and that I'm a serious artist

I don't think that's something that you need to do. After all, you don't want your source files getting out all over the place, then if someone with a mind to steal it does they have a strong claim that it's their work as well.

The fake reels that are obvious don't get fakers in the door. Once you're in the door, be prepared to talk about how you created what you did, show other render angles, wireframes, or even at that point submit a model if you feel comfortable with the employer.

I interviewed a guy a while ago, I suspected him of not being as able as he was purporting to be. I asked him for a couple of models to look over his work, and haven't heard from him since.

-e

DrCuervo
11-04-2005, 10:24 AM
Lardbros,
I suspect most, if not all of us, feel the same way. This sort of situation is not only plagerism, theft, and stupid, it will come down real friggin hard on this person taking credit for other people's efforts. As a studio manager and art director I have seen this on several occasions. The last was when a buddy called me for a reference where someone applied for a job claming to work on a game that I worked on. I knew everyone on the team and did not know who this fella was.
Even though there are thousands of CG artists we are a small specialized industry and word gets around as we have seen here. If this thief gets a job on the backs of others he will be called to the carpet to produce art at the same level, or higher, than the plagerized image. When he can't produce the results, that karmic boomerang will be flying back real hard.
This behavior will continue to happen but in the mean time we can do our best to check references and ask the right questions during interviews. We should all take advantage of watermarking and labeling our images with copyright info.
Peace,

Darrell
11-04-2005, 12:59 PM
man you guys make me want to take my website down...not that i have anything worth stealing lol...i noticed some of you who posted are art directors would you mind me asking you all questions via e-mail or private messages about what you guys are looking for in a demo reel & blah blah blah...i'll try to keep it short :)

DrCuervo
11-04-2005, 03:56 PM
man you guys make me want to take my website down...not that i have anything worth stealing lol...i noticed some of you who posted are art directors would you mind me asking you all questions via e-mail or private messages about what you guys are looking for in a demo reel & blah blah blah...i'll try to keep it short :)

fire away :thumbsup:

Bog
11-04-2005, 06:37 PM
man you guys make me want to take my website down...

Nah, mate - if more than a piddlin' percentage were dishonest, no proper work would ever get done. This sort of stuff is - rightly - in the minority.

Stick yer email addy on things, don't hotlink meshes, just practice basic informational hygeine and you'll be shiny. It's only a tiny percentage of people who mess it up for the rest of us.

Hang loose.

Darrell
11-04-2005, 10:41 PM
ok...I'm looking to make a modeling demo reel since thats my stongest area for now...I understand i should avoid space ships, popular characters, what about timing? I hear you guys may only watch 30 seconds of a 3 minute reel...should I just put my best work into 30 seconds? do supervisors prefer to look at wireframes messes only or do they want to see your prowess in texturing as well? and lastly I know some modeling demo reels have the camera do a 360 around the object, is that prefered? or you rather different still perspectives?

thanks in advance
-Darrell-

Bog
11-05-2005, 07:54 AM
*aghast* Avoid spaceships?

What... seriously? I mean... I've got sci-fi book cover work in my portfolio, which is basically about spaceships. And if I want to apply at a company which has had a lot of spaceships/aircraft/whatnot on it's brag sheet, then presumably filling my reel with cars, trees and photorealistic wine bottles won't make a lot of sense....?

Darrell
11-05-2005, 08:34 AM
*aghast* Avoid spaceships?

What... seriously? I mean... I've got sci-fi book cover work in my portfolio, which is basically about spaceships. And if I want to apply at a company which has had a lot of spaceships/aircraft/whatnot on it's brag sheet, then presumably filling my reel with cars, trees and photorealistic wine bottles won't make a lot of sense....?

hey man i have nothing against spaceships...i'm just going off what I've read in "3D World magazine" on issue had an articel on demo reels and various producers made comments on what they don't want/like...that was one of them because they say they get a lot of those.

Now lets say the job i'm applying for is working on a project that involves spaceships & other si-fi objects, of couse I will put that in my demo reel

Bog
11-05-2005, 08:45 AM
Darrel,

I know, and it's generally good advice. That and the fact that spaceships could look like pretty much anything, so it's harder to give 'em a qualitative judgement. Oh, and we're all tired of having LW described as "The Spaceship Package". I was being at least partially jokey :)

Darrell
11-05-2005, 10:41 PM
Darrel,

I know, and it's generally good advice. That and the fact that spaceships could look like pretty much anything, so it's harder to give 'em a qualitative judgement. Oh, and we're all tired of having LW described as "The Spaceship Package". I was being at least partially jokey :)

didn't know LW was described as a spaceship package...i've seen make it in all programs lol...who ever says that need to visit cgsociety.com (formally cgtalk.com). LW is a very powerfull software, which is why i bought it over maya...not to mention the $400 difference *coughs*...I like working in Lightwave...it's kinda funny too now i think about it becasue we use maya at my internship go figure huh...well basically i want my demo reel to stand out so i can get that phone call :D ...not to say i think i'm better than everyone for we got lots of talent on this forum alone. I'm suppose to meet wit my advisor this week & talk about my future career in this wonderful high competitive field :jam:

DrCuervo
11-07-2005, 10:20 AM
ok...I'm looking to make a modeling demo reel since thats my stongest area for now...
I think it depends on what the job is seeking. If it's for 3D modeling only then I recomend displaying your best 3D work as 360 movies. For timing you should let the model revolve a few times (not to fast). It may also be wise to include large jpgs of final renders (perspective front, perspective back) to show off the details. This is particularly important if the job requires texturing. As far as content you will need to research the company and what they do. If they make racing games or they need a character modeler space shipes are probably no good. They will also need to see your concepting skils so include a final concept image with the hi-res render.
If the job is for animation then showing just a few killer animations is far better than 20 minutes of work in progress of half ***** content.
Don't present your material in a flashy or dramatic way like a rock music video. Background music is OK if it is subdued but your demo reel should be clean and to the point.
Do research, show only your best stuff, have hi-res stills for your portfolio, and always put copyright info on your work.
Best of luck, :thumbsup:

Darrell
11-07-2005, 05:37 PM
I think it depends on what the job is seeking. If it's for 3D modeling only then I recomend displaying your best 3D work as 360 movies. For timing you should let the model revolve a few times (not to fast). It may also be wise to include large jpgs of final renders (perspective front, perspective back) to show off the details. This is particularly important if the job requires texturing. As far as content you will need to research the company and what they do. If they make racing games or they need a character modeler space shipes are probably no good. They will also need to see your concepting skils so include a final concept image with the hi-res render.
If the job is for animation then showing just a few killer animations is far better than 20 minutes of work in progress of half ***** content.
Don't present your material in a flashy or dramatic way like a rock music video. Background music is OK if it is subdued but your demo reel should be clean and to the point.
Do research, show only your best stuff, have hi-res stills for your portfolio, and always put copyright info on your work.
Best of luck, :thumbsup:


thanks a lot man...i'll peobably won't use music....I don't want to have something playing that my potential boss hates & ends up chucking my reel in the trash bin LOL...i like what you said & fully agree...straight to the point...no music videos.