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mnbear
10-19-2005, 06:23 PM
Well,

I never thought I would be negative towards Newtek, even thru some of the issues when 6.0 came out, I remained steadfastly a supporter of them, however, I am left feeling a little irritated, but more so, dissapointed in some of the customer service issues. Is it right to air this publically? I'm not sure, but telephone calls to Newtek havent resolved the issues so, Im guessing I should say something.

First of all, Newtek announced the release of Lightwave 64Bit with 8.5, I *IMMEDIATELY* ordered the cd, $29 to me, isn't a big deal, I spend more on that at the movies. I understood the hesitency of putting Lightwave 64-bit online and was willing to wait a few days. Then, the whole debackle arose of what constitutes a promise regarding a "free" upgrade and Newtek did the RIGHT thing by posting Lightwave 64-bit online, well, at least for SOME lightwave 8 owners... I logged into my account and I cant download Lightwave 64-bit for some reason. So, I called and the nice person at Newtek said they would correct the issue, but I thought, heck, I'll have the CDS in a day or two.

Yesterday, I get a notice from UPS that my newtek 8.5 upgrade delivery was attempted, but Newtek chose to have it sent PERSONAL in-person signature required... The nice folks at UPS checked the box delivery between 8am and 2pm and 2pm and 5pm. So, I thought, well, I deserve a day off from work (I work 70-80 hour weeks), so I waited patiently for the upgrade to arrive. They came around noon. I immediately went up to install it, and low and behold there is only one CD...and on the CD there are the following files:

autorun 1kb
icon2 92kb
Lightwave 186,271kb
Lightwave8.pdf 93,860kb
Lightwave8_Addendum.pdf 6,600 kb
LW8HiresForPrint 236,660 kb
Sentinel Protection Install 7.1.1 8,329kb
Sentinal Protection Install(64bit) 7.1.0 31kb

So, I read the instructions like a good boy from the Sentinal 64-bit drivers and successfully install the Dongel driver. Then I click on the Lightwave installer and it merrily chugs away installing Lightwave. But, to my dismay, it installs the 32-bit version of lightwave, NOWHERE in the install or on the CD is the 64-bit version. Should it be on a Different CD? Where are the Content CD'S (Im not really upset about that because at least I have them from the 8.0 release). What I am upset about is all of the flak they have been receiving online about the 64-bit version being hard to get, after ordering the version, after contacting Newtek and being told that my online registration screen would be fixed so I could update it, after waiting to receive a $29.00 upgrade ALL day because newtek chooses to send it out signed receipt upon delivery required, I find that the CD that is sent doesnt have what was promised on it. Nor has my online account been modified to allow me to download the "700-some mb" upgrade to 64-bit Lightwave.

What is going on, folks!? This just isnt bad customer service, its INCOMPETENT CUSTOMER service. I own my own company, I know what its like to get a riled up customer who acts irrationally and expects a company to lose money. Newtek is in the business (as am I) to MAKE money. I get it, I understand why Newtek would charge $29 for the upgrade CD. I just don't get why my online account wasnt fixed in the last 6 days so I could download it? I don't understand why I spent $29 to have a hard copy of Lightwave 8.5 (both 32 and 64 bit versions) and receive what seems to be an incomplete CD. Someone, somewhere who burned and mastered this cd must have noticed that the 64-bit version was missing! and if LW-64 is 700+ meg wouldnt it be on its own CD? am I missing a CD? Am I missing the content CD's? And why for the love of Newtek, would they make someone have to sit at home and WAIT for a $29.00 upgrade to be delivered? that to me is frustrasting and unnacceptable.

Now with all that being said, I want it known and made clear that I have *ALWAYS* been a supporter of newtek, from the days of the amiga and digiview, to the FIRST toaster and the first amiga stand alone version, and PC version in 1994. I purchased the VT4000 and FLYER and Harddrives and have kept up with the company LOYALLY, and currently own a VT 4.5. So its not like I am some fly-by night nut who doesnt know Newtek's history of customer service excellence. I'm aware of all of the drama and how Newtek, for a short while, had not moved in the "right direction". Thats why, when 8.0 came out, I was ecstatic, things seemed to be moving ahead POSITIVELY. 9.0 looks to be phenominal, and I am excited, I pre-ordered it, even! But, geeze, something like this experience really makes me wonder.

With all (Im winded here) that being said, this isnt a slam against any individual (especially not poor Chuck Baker who has had to endure some pretty nasty responses in the last few weeks). This is a slam against whatever quality assurance process Newtek has in place that allowed the above to happen, and not only happen once, but in a series of events that would lead an otherwise long term happy, easily pleased customer to have to rant.

When things in my business go wrong, I learn from them, I try very hard to correct them, I do my best to please the customer (which cant always be done), and thats all I really hope for here. Newtek, PLEASE take the above criticism to heart, look into it, correct it, and at some point in the process PLEASE allow me access to Lightwave 8.5 64-bit, i mean, I paid for it, right? my registration screen allowing me to download it would be great, but the hard copy of 8.5 w/ the 64-bit version that I paid for would be better; BOTH, well, thats just the right thing to do.

Jim

gjjackson
10-19-2005, 06:40 PM
I received mine today and found the same problem. I posted in Community section 'Who ordered the 64bit CD'. I was curious if it was just me that got a wrong CD or what. I didn't like all the complaints about the 'free' upgrade, but this is really unacceptable. I Really don't see how this could be a mistake. As far as downloading they had to pull it down because it wouldn't install. The installer wouldn't recognize 64bit CPU's. So that makes me wonder if that's why it's not on the CD. If that's the case then it should've been said. The email I got to confirm sending the CD instead of downloading only mentioned the 64bit version. That's what I paid for, a full complete install of 8.5 Win32 and Win64. I thought it odd when installing in the X86 Program directory. That's where windows installs 32bit software. So when I first started up LW it shows 8.5 (Win32). I was really, really disappointed. I've been waiting anxiously a long time for it because I missed out on the beta and bought a 64bit PC just for that reason. Now I have LW (Win32) on that machine. I have tried keeping everything nice and clean on this machine so when it's completely set up I could do an image of it. I didn't want to install and remove items to clutter up the registry and sytem directories.

mnbear
10-19-2005, 06:53 PM
Well, unfortunately, that just irritates me even more. I didn't know about any of that, when I got the email from Newtek, noone mentioned a problem with the 64-bit version of the install. Thats why I ordered the program, why even bother sending out the CD? And even more than that, given that Newtek new this to be a problem and that they emailed everyone who ordered the CD wouldnt you think they'd have emailed them back saying "hey, folks, we have a bit of a snafu here, it may be a bit for you get LW 64-bit". Incompetence in quality assurance doesn't accomodate deception, Newtek has NEVER (to my knowledge) been openly deceptive. Sure, they miss release dates and have sent out products with serious bugs and problems (I.e. Video Toaster 4.0) but never deception....

Someone at Newtek knew that LW 64-BIT had an installer problem, Someone at Newtek mastered and burned a 32-bit install of 8.5 without the 64-bit version on there. Someone at Newtek knew that customers ordered the CD (probably like me, specifically for a hard copy installer of the 64-bit version). Is it conceivable to believe that all of these people are so distantly removed from each other that noone communicated the problem and just shipped out the CD without informing the customers who paid for it that they wouldnt be getting what they ordered? If thats the case, bring in the ISO-9000 quality standards, folks, because any company that can have ALL of that going on without some person connecting the dots can't possibly be in control of its destiny.

I still find myself shocked and dismayed at my level of dissatisfaction. Newtek is better than this, I am just... incredibly dissapointed.




I received mine today and found the same problem. I posted in Community section 'Who ordered the 64bit CD'. I was curious if it was just me that got a wrong CD or what. I didn't like all the complaints about the 'free' upgrade, but this is really unacceptable. I Really don't see how this could be a mistake. As far as downloading they had to pull it down because it wouldn't install. The installer wouldn't recognize 64bit CPU's. So that makes me wonder if that's why it's not on the CD. If that's the case then it should've been said. The email I got to confirm sending the CD instead of downloading only mentioned the 64bit version. That's what I paid for, a full complete install of 8.5 Win32 and Win64. I thought it odd when installing in the X86 Program directory. That's where windows installs 32bit software. So when I first started up LW it shows 8.5 (Win32). I was really, really disappointed. I've been waiting anxiously a long time for it because I missed out on the beta and bought a 64bit PC just for that reason.

habaņero
10-20-2005, 07:05 AM
Some disappointment this ruckus, after the goodness of 8.5.

I think there maybe are a misunderstanding, if you have the same issue as the download crowd it is the 64 bit version but through some issue it isn't recognised or how to put it. I also think it is maybe early to make the conclusion this was deception, ruling out human error in the software business is very hard work in my opinion. The worst virus attack on the internet infrastructure in history, single comma error. It'd also not make sense to "Newtek the scam artist" to try a trick like that, where is the payoff? Hardly a marketing victory?

I reckon it would have been better to delay 64 bit lightwave. Might seem an obvious analysis, but I'd say that Newtek put its current process under unecessary pressure. If they had stated a delay until further notice and cited nasty driver problems under XP64, I think people would accept. This mess they likely won't. I mean I am assuming the problem is with all CDs.

Tells you how free can be a very bad word, what is good for Newtek is in most cases also good for LWs users and this situation clearly aint good for either.

I'd expect Newtek to do something like buying some nice plugin with no stability issues and shipping it out with LW 8.5b like the same day LW64 is over. I think many people would prefer this as a solution over a refund of the 29 bucks, which it would seem would be obviously be a far more costly solution to Newtek than 29$ a pop, handling adding to costs and on a project that doesn't directly earn money in the first place.

If the texture editor in 9 is going to be entirely new, maybe there are plugins that because of this or other new feature will loose their appeal with 9 that it would make sense for the developers to sell cheaply?

As for the ****storm that will seemingly will follow this lil scandal, I hope it doesn't take the air outta the developers, what I really care about is 9 and so I hope it won't act pubertile on release. It would be better to throw us some pickles underway if there are serious delays.

I think it is good though not simple advice for Newtek to look at their processes. I took some HCI classes, like interface design psychology, and the introduction to the course was this text listing the problems with any software design process, concluding that it was likely impossible for humans to properly manage this in real world situations. :D It also had some wise advice about fixed schedules and how this can have the same effect for software as having time in minutes printed by each item on a restaurant menu would for a restaurant. Still think they are good people, very stressed good people actually at the moment ...

nthused
10-20-2005, 07:42 AM
I had the same experience, guys. Called NewTek immediately when I received the 32-bit program on CD.
NewTek has always given me more for my money than almost any company I've ever done business with. This 64 bit release was 2 SNAFUs on top of each other (the bad installer for the download, and the 32 bit CD burn).
One thing in life I've learned is to always remember that people will mess up from time to time - NewTek is no different - but I've always seen them come out afterwards and more than fix the problems - and in fact have added features with each new release.
I have the utmost confidence that these quality control issues will be rectified in short order and that we'll once again be "happy campers".

-He who cannot wait for 9.0-

gjjackson
10-20-2005, 08:10 AM
My suspicion is the same problem arose with the full install (CD) as with the download and they decided to go ahead and send out the 32bit CD until the issue is resolved. The only problem is they should've mentioned that. I don't mind waiting for another CD but I WAS expecting 32 and 64bit. As mentioned earlier the 64bit is probably on a CD by itself. If I knew this I wouldn't have bothered installing it on my 64bit machine (the 32bit version). I assumed the exe file included both internally and would install the appropriate version since there was included the 64bit sentinel driver. My main issue is this really makes Newtek look bad and gives fuel for *nasty* complaints. Newtek has shown time and again their concern with their customers' complaints and do their best to resolve the issues. I suggest Chuck or someone hurry up and get on top of this before it gets out of hand. Just be up front and tell us what happened. The vast majority of us will accept what is the case. Obviously there will be those very few who will be extremely irate. But no matter what they'll be irate over anything.

Chuck
10-20-2005, 08:59 AM
The 8.5 Program CD has 32-bit Mac and Windows Installers and the 64-bit Windows Installer. There is only one version of the CD, so if your CD indicates it is version 8.5, then all installers are present; however, the 64-bit installer on the CD has the same problems as the downloadable Installer, and either will not run or will only run to give a message saying it is not detecting a 64-bit OS. Our apologies for not managing to get shipping stopped before some of these went out.

As we announced here on the forums last Friady, the LightWave team is correcting the 64-bit installer to allow installation as it should, and the downloadable update will be placed online as soon as possible. The CD will also be revised and the new edition will be sent to those who have ordered.

Again, our apologies for any inconveniences this has caused for our LightWave users anxious to get started with the 64-bit edition.

gjjackson
10-20-2005, 09:13 AM
Thanks for the update Chuck. I, for one, assumed it was only a problem with the downloadable version, since the CD was sent out. It's not a big deal. I've wondered if the installer is looking for a particular registry value or system variable that could be changed in order to accomodate it. I wouldn't know what that value would be though. If that's the case I wouldn't mind editing such a value to see if it works. I tried a couple of values to no avail. If this is the case could you let us know so some of us could try it out.

mnbear
10-20-2005, 12:27 PM
Chuck,

I know your job is hard, man, but please tell me where in the Lightwave installer (186.271mb) the 64-bit versions lie, because I am not getting an error message upon installion, it is just installing the 32-bit version without any option or message or error about the 64-bit version, and after looking at the files within the installer itself, im not finding the files.

Chuck, frankly, I don't think its your job to apologize for the incompetence of other individuals. Things happen, I get it. My frustration is born more out of a complete disregard to inform Newtek's customers of the situation and requiring them to sort it out for themselves. Customer Service at Newtek seemed obvlivious to the fact that the 64-bit version was taken offline, or that any of the customers who ordered the product should be notified of the problems with it.

You have a tough enough job and how you addressed your response was all that I could hope and ask for in a resolution. My advice to Newtek (not to you in general, because all of us long time Newtek loyalists know *you are the man*) is that you develop some sort of quality assurance program, my advice that it be based on ISO-9000 standards so that things like this dont happen.

My comments about deception lay simply in the inconceivable belief that ALL of this could have occurred simulataneously to the 64-bit release and not one person at Newtek could put together that customers had ordered the product who wouldnt be informed of the problem and would have to spend their time and energy on figuring out that there WAS a problem. I'm going to hold steadfastly to the belief that it was simply incompetence and not deception because Newtek has treated me well in the past as I expect they will do in the future.

If you have to delay a product release, so be it, but have something in process to inform your customers of the delay, the reason for the delay, and what kind of response they can expect. ISO-9000 boils down simply to "Say as you do, Do as you Say" with the caveat that s**t happens and the best laid plans dont always work out. ISO-9000 allows for this and if you have a properly documented course of action you just follow point A to point B to point C.

Newtek don't deserve to have unhappy customers with the excellent products you are releasing, especially not ones who's been with you since the beginning, like myself. And Chuck, YOU, don't need to be apologizing for the lack of follow-thru from other people and or departments. You have and always will be a cornerstone to what makes Newtek unique.

Like I said, your response is great, lets just hope the cd's you send out NEXT time arent sent 'in-person" signature required so that some of us with full time jobs need to stay home and wait for 'em. Lets also hope that Newtek learns from this snafu and adopts measures that will prevent similar things from happening to say, god forbid, the upcoming 9.0 release.

Your company depends on its reputation and rather than run around and waste huge amounts of time and resources solving problems that have been created thru lack of communication, documention, and preparation, you should focus on fixing those issues, so that you can free yourselves up to take the kudo's and free lunches you'll be offered for releasing a trouble-free excellently received product.

(Just my thoughts)

Chuck
10-20-2005, 02:24 PM
... please tell me where in the Lightwave installer (186.271mb) the 64-bit versions lie, because I am not getting an error message upon installion, it is just installing the 32-bit version without any option or message or error about the 64-bit version, and after looking at the files within the installer itself, im not finding the files.


My bad, you aren't going to get any error, just the 32-bit install. If I understand the situation correctly now, the 64-bit files are in the Windows cab files, but the installer is not capable of telling whether a 32- or 64-bit OS is in place and just assumes 32-bit and installs.

Please rest assured I'm passing the public feedback on the situation to management, and they are working out how to prevent a recurrence of this type of situation in future.

gjjackson
10-20-2005, 03:40 PM
Chuck,
I am not getting an error message upon installion, it is just installing the 32-bit version without any option or message or error about the 64-bit version, and after looking at the files within the installer itself, im not finding the files.



Did you download the new install file put up today. My installation did just as Chuck has said. Evidently the OS DOES know it's 64 bit because it installs it into the Programs folder (the 64bit folder) and not the x86 Programs folder where XP installs 32 bit programs. The 32bit program DID install it in the x86 folder. It now says Lightwave 3D 8.5 (Win64). I'm in Lamb heaven now. [Not Hog (I don't eat pork)]. The dongle works great for DFx and LW.

Considering this program is for a completely new OS and driver issues in the past I'd cut Newtek a lot of slack. This new OS has completely stripped all support for 16bit files.

******************

Chuck, considering the new OpenGL 2.0 features, what would be the easiest way to determine if my video card will support that. I haven't looked yet, but are there scene files to test this with. It'll take me some time to get everything up to speed, as far as plugins etc.

habaņero
10-20-2005, 05:27 PM
Running LW8 64 Bit as a dreeem!

On the Ogl 2 check, you could try to download rivatuner from www.guru3d.com, it will state information about OGL/drivers and absolutely everything else.

If you have a fairly new (nvidia) card *and fresh drivers*, you are OK.

gjjackson
10-20-2005, 08:06 PM
This link http://www.realtech-vr.com/glview/download.html will give you a OpenGL viewer to check you OpenGL compatibility. My ATI card seems to support the 2.0 . The viewer will check XP and x64 and Mac.

RedBull
10-20-2005, 08:18 PM
Chuck, considering the new OpenGL 2.0 features, what would be the easiest way to determine if my video card will support that. I haven't looked yet, but are there scene files to test this with. It'll take me some time to get everything up to speed, as far as plugins etc.

Look at the display options, in Layout and if GLSL HW Shading is an option,
you support OGL2...Another way, would be to click "Help - About OpenGL"
This will tell you videocard and OpenGL driver, version and support information.

gjjackson
10-21-2005, 07:11 AM
I was under the impression that 2.0 could be supported but not in total, such that a few features weren't implemented in ATI, or some such thing. Anyway the file above does a comlete test from 1. to 2.0. Also, I havent' checked the Content directory but was wondering if there were any sample scenes to fully test and benchmark the new additions.