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View Full Version : 8.5 Modeler is SLOWER



Chris S. (Fez)
10-13-2005, 05:50 PM
I am getting weird pauses when inverting polygon selections and hiding polygon selections. It is like the commands take 3/4 of a second longer and the lag is driving me nuts.

mkiii
10-13-2005, 06:07 PM
I have copied the previous version back (just modeler.exe) & am using that OK. It works fine so far with the new stuff.

All the extra keystrokes are there, and Multishift works fine.

It also gets rid of the annoying OGL corruption that some people have been reporting. IE the same problems that occurred in LW6.0 Beta, such as transparant polys drawing in place of solid ones.

Chris S. (Fez)
10-13-2005, 06:19 PM
I have copied the previous version back (just modeler.exe) & am using that OK.

Thanks for the suggestion. Could you please be more specific about your fix? What do you mean exactly by "copied the previous version back?". I don't want to do anything stupid and blow up my Lightwave installation 8/ .

colkai
10-14-2005, 02:44 AM
I think he means he just replaced modeller.exe with the 8.3 version

lots
10-14-2005, 09:51 AM
I havnt noticed any speed decreases in modeller, nor have I noticed any strange artifacts... Though recently I have not been working with SUPER high poly models.. I guess I could load up one that has caused my system to slow down before and see how that does :)

dablan
10-14-2005, 11:31 AM
I've not noticed any slowdowns, in fact, it seems more stable and robust. However, I did just add a new drive, and start with a fresh clean install of everything. LW is a good bit faster. No specifics, but a project I'm working on was 30 sec a frame... it's now 18 sec a frame, some even faster. Given that there's about 12,000 frames... that saves me a lot of time.

Thanks NT!

mkiii
10-14-2005, 01:35 PM
I think he means he just replaced modeller.exe with the 8.3 version

Yes that's right. I just copied the modeler.exe from another location.

Although The version I had most readily to hand (without dragging out backup disks) was V8.0.

Note that you can rename the file if you don't want to overwrite your 8.5 version. Just bear in mind that the hub may get confused if you use it with more than one version running.

It's not an ideal situation, but 8.5 modeler as far as my situation is concerned is broken, and these days, I hardly ever do much in layout beyond a simple test render.

mkiii
10-14-2005, 01:35 PM
I've not noticed any slowdowns, in fact, it seems more stable and robust. However, I did just add a new drive, and start with a fresh clean install of everything. LW is a good bit faster. No specifics, but a project I'm working on was 30 sec a frame... it's now 18 sec a frame, some even faster. Given that there's about 12,000 frames... that saves me a lot of time.

Thanks NT!

We are talking about Modeler Dan, Not Layout.

Chris S. (Fez)
10-14-2005, 02:43 PM
Ok. Thank you gentlemen. I guess I will try the .exe swap.

prospector
10-14-2005, 04:34 PM
noticed the slowdown too
working on a 300 bone and 300 weightmap object from back to 8 and matching up weights to bones (in weightpanel) is a wait to get it to go to next one after setting 1.

Refresh rate is slower also.

May be because of new OGL (vid card was top of line when 8.3 came out but now it's not so that may be it).

Chris S. (Fez)
10-15-2005, 02:06 AM
On Spinquad, Chuck mentioned the team might not be able to make modeler's opengl any faster by the initial 9 release. Hopefully we will see a serious speed boost sometime in the 9.x series.

BazC
10-15-2005, 02:22 AM
On Spinquad, Chuck mentioned the team might not be able to make modeler's opengl any faster by the initial 9 release. Hopefully we will see a serious speed boost sometime in the 9.x series.


That's too bad, I think it was Chuck who said Mac LW OGL should be as good as any other Mac app in LW9. It's got a h*ll of a way to go! Let's hope it's up to speed before LW10 - Baz

digefxgrp
10-16-2005, 01:51 PM
Interesting. For me 8.5 Modeler is far more stable. I wouldn’t use Modeler between 8.0 and 8.3 due to constant crashing and therefore went back to 7.5 which maintained about a 95% stability factor (8.0 to 8.3 had about a 30-40% stability factor). Now with 8.5, using it daily, I’ve only had one crash total and that was a menu reconfiguration incident.
I can’t really tell if it’s been speeded up any, but there’s definitely no slow down... at least on my machines.

Craig Paup
Digital Efx Group

Lynx3d
10-16-2005, 02:32 PM
It also gets rid of the annoying OGL corruption that some people have been reporting. IE the same problems that occurred in LW6.0 Beta, such as transparant polys drawing in place of solid ones.

And i already wondered if i was the only one...though it doesn't always happen to me. But it sure sucks.

And possibly no Modeler speedup in LW9.0? Sigh...but this time i'm definitely waiting for the realease before thinking about updating anyway.

Chris S. (Fez)
10-16-2005, 03:44 PM
this time i'm definitely waiting for the realease before thinking about updating anyway.

Yeah, no way Newtek is getting my money until I KNOW 9 kicks ***. There are too many capable apps out there.

RedBull
10-16-2005, 08:22 PM
8.5 Modeler seems fine to me, no real slowdown that iv'e noticed....
And 8.5 is i believe the most robust and stable version of 8.x yet...
It feels pretty good...

I do seem to see a pause every now and then, which seems to be either new dongle drivers, or new dongle checks in Lightwave or Modeler...
My Firewall asked for more permissions, with the 8.5 install, than 8.3 did....
So maybe that is why...

mkiii
10-24-2005, 07:27 AM
Yeah, no way Newtek is getting my money until I KNOW 9 kicks ***. There are too many capable apps out there.

Yup. Same here.

I'm afraid to say that my post SIGGRAPH excitement has been pretty much washed away by 8.5. Considering that I do 95% of my work in modeler, to find that all that seems to have changed is some new bugs & a plugin to do fancy bevels.

I can hear the throngs now telling me it must be my drivers or old crappy video card that is the problem. Well no it isn't. I have a perfectly good Radeon 9800 Pro, which now have the latest drivers, and still no joy.

People keep telling me how stable 8.5 is... but that is compared to 8.3. It's like saying that modeler is now really stable because it doesn't crash 4 times a day or refuse to load a model that it saved yesterday.

nemac4
10-24-2005, 07:56 AM
I upgraded my video card at the same time as installing 8.5 so it is much faster for me.

nemac4
10-24-2005, 08:00 AM
People keep telling me how stable 8.5 is... but that is compared to 8.3. It's like saying that modeler is now really stable because it doesn't crash 4 times a day or refuse to load a model that it saved yesterday.

Could you post an old model for others to try loading? Seems to work fine for me so far.

SplineGod
10-24-2005, 08:06 AM
Both 8.3 and 8.5 have been very stable for me too. :stumped:

mattclary
10-24-2005, 10:53 AM
I have a perfectly good Radeon 9800 Pro

Isn't that a contradiction? ;) [note the wink!]

mkiii
10-24-2005, 01:11 PM
Could you post an old model for others to try loading? Seems to work fine for me so far.

Unfortunately no.

The last big ish model I made that killed modeler 8.3 without fal is not mine to give out - It is a fairly detailed mesh made in layers, and hitting about 1.5 million polys. Modeler refused to load it one day, so I had to revert to v7.5 to get the job done, needing to save each layer as a separate smaller object before 8.3 modeler would load it.

8.5 modeler does now load this mesh in one lump, but it certainly isn't any faster, and layout still crashes randomly when I do something complex such as using the Surface Editor.

Anyway - My point was, that 8.5 *is* going to seem more stable than 8.3, because 8.3 was as unstable as a pile of marbles.

If you want to test it, just make a few large boxes, and subdivide em a few times until you get a few hundred thousand polys, copy a few times into various layers. Now add a few large textures, say 2000x2000, and make sure you UV map the thing, or it will look bad, and give it a whirl.

mkiii
10-24-2005, 01:18 PM
Isn't that a contradiction? ;) [note the wink!]

My other machine is Nvidia... but I haven't bothered installing 8.5 on that one.

toonafish
10-24-2005, 04:42 PM
Just gave your huge polycount test a spin in LW 8.3, copied an object with 331776 poly's into 10 different layers and UV textured it with a 2K texture.

I can't say Modeler is fast with one layer active in texured view but it's workable, but I didn't expect it to be. With 2 or 3 layers active and almost 1 million polys it's really becoming slow. I could select all 10 layers, and with more then 3 milliion poly's in my view rotating was really slooow which is not very surprising.
But then I must admit I hardly ever work with objects like that and if I do I set the view to flat shaded which improves the speed quite a bit. What helps too is disabling points and normals in the wireframe views.
In wireframe mode with points deactivated I can even activate all layers and the view is still responsive

So far no crashes here, but then I just rotated the view and did not do any actual work on the object. And I have a brandnew laptop with a GeForce 7800 GTX which helps too :D

toonafish
10-24-2005, 05:55 PM
just to compare I loaded the same highpoly object into Modo and Silo.

Modo behaved a bit quirky like not displaying selected layers in some views and crashed on me when I selected all 10 layers . With one layer selected Modo was a bit more responsive when rotating the view, but loading the object was about 10 times slower then modeler and switching layers took much longer too.

Silo was a bit better with one layer ( 331776 poly's ), but not much faster then Modeler with dragnet when trying to do some modeling with softselections. Though viewport navigation was faster then Modeler, but no huge difference.

But with the same one layered object loaded Modo beat both. Moving with element or screen falloff was quite fast compared to Silo in Fast Shaded and and Modeler in Flat Shaded mode.

So Modeler is not so bad after all.

mkiii
10-25-2005, 07:32 AM
My problem was not so much the speed, which as I said isn't great...... but with the fact that it got to a point where the object wouldn't load at all until I used 7.5 to break it up.

I wouldn't expect to smoothly rotate a million polys in modeler. No layer had more than maybe 100k polys.

Just for a laugh, try loading that mesh into XSI... it barely notices the difference.

nemac4
10-25-2005, 11:09 AM
Well MKiii ,.. I don't know what to tell you. I tried the test also and it works fine for me. I loaded up a large Sub-d mesh and froze it and copied to 10 layers for over 1.3 million polys. Each layer with 67 surfaces most with at least 4 UV textures ranging from 512 to 2500 rez. 156 images total for each layer. Setting the display to smooth or flat shade with all layers on still allows me to rotate the model well enough to work on it. I also saved and reloaded and it still worked fine. I even played in the surface editor too,.. and no issues. I'm wondering if you have a corrupt install or something.

mkiii
10-25-2005, 07:13 PM
Ahem! I said it worked in 8.5. it didn't work in 8.3 If you re-read my post, the point was that just because 8.5 is more stable than 8.3, it doesn't make it ''robust'', it just makes it less crash prone than the last version.

However, there are still big problems with 8.5, modeler, some of which have been carried over from previous versions, though It seems I am the only one who has a problem with modeler, so we better just ignore it then.

I don't have a corrupt install, I have more than one machine with LW, 2 different types of processor, and 2 different makes of GFX Card, and they both act the same btw. I just have an install of an app (modeler), that is progressively getting more & more broken as time goes on, with a promise that if I just hang on & buy an upgrade to 9.0, then all will be hunky dory.

I've been hearing that since 6.0beta force issue, and modeler just doesn't get fixed properly, it just has new stuff bolted on, which sometimes just introduces new bugs.

RedBull
10-26-2005, 01:05 AM
Unfortunately no.

The last big ish model I made that killed modeler 8.3 without fal is not mine to give out - It is a fairly detailed mesh made in layers, and hitting about 1.5 million polys. Modeler refused to load it one day, so I had to revert to v7.5 to get the job done, needing to save each layer as a separate smaller object before 8.3 modeler would load it.

I have a 2.4million subD procedurally built city, made in Layout and save transformed, it loads in Modeler in a few seconds, and is suprisingly good to work with.... (Quemmloss3) will run out of memory when i try and half the polys though, but it's hardly a surprise with a 2Ghz CPU with 1Gb ram, running a 128mb videocard... Modo on the otherhand will NOT load this object at ALL... (Have not tried 103) And let's not even talk about Maya7, which is also on this machine.

Like any program, Modeler and LW are not perfect, but they do work well
and are quite production ready for most things, i suggest if you can find a more suitable modeler, to use it.....

But if you have a legit problem, with repeatable bugs or good Modeler suggestions that NT are ignoring, you may have our sympathies...
But many of us use LW for many reasons, for many years.. And we are still here with a fair bit of stability to boot!

videobear
10-26-2005, 07:47 AM
I understand your frustration, MKIII, but the problem simply is not in Modeler. If it were, a lot more people would be seeing what you are seeing.

I don't know what to tell you; I have a similar graphics card (Radeon 9700 Pro) and both 8.3 and 8.5 are incredibly stable and reliable on my system. But SOMETHING that you have there, or are doing, that is common to both your systems, is causing the problem.

nick2k
01-13-2006, 07:14 PM
I have found on every machine i have used that 8.5s modeler is about 20 times slower then 8.3 when it comes to any semi heavy subpatched models i have tested this on about 4 computers. all with diffrent hardware. 8.5 struggles with anything remotely heavy that gets sub patched. During non subpatched objects it has no problem what so ever speed seems pretty much the same in both apps. it really sucks since many object i have made in 8.5 uses then new blending modes i cant go back to using 8.3 to edit them. Its just impossible to use as the models grow.

I even tried uping my subdivisions to 15 in 8.3 and on the same object in 8.5 with the divisions set to 1 is still slower!!!!!!!!

nemac4
01-13-2006, 07:24 PM
I was not having any slowdown troubles in 8.5 at all untill after updating my drivers for my nvidia video card. I've now switched back to older drivers and all is good again.

nick2k
01-14-2006, 04:59 PM
thing is its slow on a geforce a 3d wildcat and a professional version of the card with 756 mb of video ram??????? which also has dual opteron and 4 gigs of ram so whats the deal with 8.5 being so slow compared to 8.3?? try comparing it your selves try loading in a sub patched object that has many parts in the 1 layer. even hiding the rest of teh objects does not help.

BazC
01-15-2006, 07:03 AM
That's a shame, modeler is painfully slow in comparison to Silo or Cinema on my eMac! :thumbsdow

-EsHrA-
01-15-2006, 08:31 AM
On Spinquad, Chuck mentioned the team might not be able to make modeler's opengl any faster by the initial 9 release. Hopefully we will see a serious speed boost sometime in the 9.x series.

not able??!!

then get some more or new staff on it, sjeezz...
last thing i heard was sales skyrocketing...

sorry for getting fed up here...


mlon

Chris S. (Fez)
01-15-2006, 09:24 AM
Maybe the reason 9 is late is because Newtek decided that they must improve Modeler's performance to stay competitive. That would be worth waiting for...

Cageman
01-15-2006, 09:49 AM
I've got a GeForce FX5700, 256MB which I patched to GeForce Quadro 1100 (using RIVATuner). I´ve got an object with 952.080 polygons and it is not at all doable to work with. If I rotate I can take a coffiebreak for each time I want to rotate 360 degerees in Perspective view. Using wireframe...!

Modeler 8.3.

habañero
01-20-2006, 12:07 PM
Seemingly not getting this error, either with my old 5900XT/softquadro or a new 6600GT. A million subpatched polys with texture workable on both. I think I would encourage people with these problems at least on nvidia cards to experiment with driver versions, maybe using special tools to clean entirely the old ones. Guru3d.com have an assortment of such tools, drivers and discussion forums.

A 5700 is not a very musculous card and I am not sure that you can get a clean quadro fix on that, I am not sure that the result there is erroneous.

Cageman
01-20-2006, 12:45 PM
A 5700 is not a very musculous card and I am not sure that you can get a clean quadro fix on that, I am not sure that the result there is erroneous.

Thanks for the tip! What do you mean with "a clean quadrofix"? I´m using RivaTuner and Windows sees the card as a Quadro FX 1100.

Exception
01-20-2006, 03:29 PM
Mkiii, I know you don;t want to hear this, but I've been working with laightwave since 5.6, on a daily basis, with large models mostly. Although still not 100% crashproof, modeler 8.3 is definately one of the most stable modelers to date.

I know you don;t want to hear this either, but I had a 9700 pro and it would just not play nice in the sandbox with lightwave. Now wether or not this is ATi's fault or lightwave's, I know that 90% of the time it was the opengl drivers of the ati card that crashed modeler (ogldll.exe or something), or otherwise ati related.

Do you have the anti aliasing or anisotropic settings on? This causes immediate hardware crashes on most ati video cards with modeler. Especially if you move the center of the viewports around.