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View Full Version : Are sub-projects stable in VT 4.5?



james_dmi
10-13-2005, 06:16 AM
I donít use VT edit that often as I spend most my time doing 3D CGI and after fx work and then at most stitching things together and adding audio in VT. I am now embarking on a project that has far more video and I will need to make much heaver use of VT edit. In the past I have always kept away from using sub-projects because of strange behaviour I experienced back in the VT[2] days. I would like to start using them again to manage the complexity of my timeline but I'm worried that if I do, at some point down the road I'm going to run in to problems again.

My question is that now we are on VT 4.5 are subprojects 100% stable? I must say that I have not had a single problem with VT4 or 4.5 since I upgraded from 2 (I skipped 3) so I am optimistic about sub-projects. I also donít see the subject continually coming up on the message boards. Is that because they are now good or because no one uses them any more.

Paul Lara
10-13-2005, 07:07 AM
There should be no problems with subprojects in version 4.5.

Jim Capillo
10-13-2005, 07:12 AM
My question is that now we are on VT 4.5 are subprojects 100% stable?

Fine here, too. :thumbsup:

Jim_C
10-13-2005, 07:20 AM
Hi James,


I have been a little leary of subprojects also.. all the way through VT3. I had some major disruptions and headaches very early on that scarred me badly.

I will now say, from all I can tell in VT 4.5 ... :thumbsup:

radams
10-13-2005, 12:03 PM
Sub projects are one of the most powerful and useful features of VT4.5.

Also note that with the new superscaling functions etc..within VT Edit...you no longer need to use AE for PIP or general image maniputation...you can now do it in realtime with VTEdit...You can also work with multiple subs to create smaller sequences then stitch them together...very quickly and simple.

I do not use AE much anymore for general work (I use it for DVD menus mostly now)...VTEdit does so much now.
If you need more advance stuff. I also love to work with Mirage and Digital Fusion (its a much more powerful compositer that AE and MUCH faster).

Cheers,

ScorpioProd
10-13-2005, 03:05 PM
Just to clarify something Ray said... He seemed to imply that subprojects can be used for PIPs and such, that is definately NOT the case. That is still a major limitiation to subprojects, they can't be overlaid and sized and moved over video. In no way can they be treated "just like any video clip."

inquisitive
10-13-2005, 04:07 PM
ok what was Ray referring to then? I have also stayed away from sub-projects mainly because i have had no need for them.

ScorpioProd
10-13-2005, 06:45 PM
He just meant about the superscaling being higher quality, and being able to do PIPs and moves and such in VT-Edit... At much higher quality than in the past, which is totally true.

But the way he said this wrapped in the subproject discussion I wanted to clarify that though all that is true of CLIPS in VT-Edit, it is NOT true of subprojects.

But just for organizing sections of projects, subprojects are great. But if you need to PIP or do any sizing or moves of a subproject, you're gonna have to render it out due to VT-Edit's limitations, so you might as well just render it, the subproject itself won't let you do that.

So honestly, due to this rather severe limitation, I don't personally find subprojects as powerful and useful as Ray does.

Jim_C
10-13-2005, 06:48 PM
And to clarify what I said. My subproject problem had nothing to do with stability or crashes. I had problems with in/out points and fade durations changing when I would sub project then expand.

But that was long, long ago and I have not seen any of those problems in VT4

wvp
10-14-2005, 07:15 AM
Subprojects can be useful, here a couple ways:
1) Photomontages - create a sub for a group of pictures to go with each song. In fact if you have the pictures in folder, just drag the folder into the timeline & viola! an instant subproject.
2) Music video - each song can be edited inside its own sub project & then you can stich them together.
3) As a way to break up parts of a bigger project, i.e. A complex into scene, a multicam interview, footage from a particular location, footage that goes with a certain time period.
This last one I currently using as I create a "behind the music" type of edit. Subs allow me to group clips, pics & interviews for a particular time block. Of course when you are finished editing this sub you can always "de-sub" if need be.

While I'm at it, don't forget VT has a colorizer. I use this when editing multicam. I colorize my different shots - i.e. red for singers, green, drums, yellow guitar, etc (or red for subject 1, green subject 2, yellow b-roll)

billmi
10-14-2005, 10:17 AM
But just for organizing sections of projects, subprojects are great. But if you need to PIP or do any sizing or moves of a subproject, you're gonna have to render it out due to VT-Edit's limitations, so you might as well just render it, the subproject itself won't let you do that.


Or, you could use the PIP DVE to bring up your sub-project in a PIP without the need to render, which is what I suspect radams was talking about.

That said, I certainly would like a to have more control tree function over a subproject.

I like the sub-projects because I can have multiple layers going in a subproject (an interview with introductory CG already onscreen, or segment title overlayed) and use a DVE to transition to it, so the DVE applies to all the layers of the subproject. Also, from an organizational standpoint they are nifty - an interview or other show segment as a subproject means editing of a magazine format show is just editing the subprojects together.

And no, I haven't had problems with sub-projects losing in or out points.

radams
10-14-2005, 10:23 AM
Well for those confused...

1) SUBS are VERY stable in VT4.5

2) that in VTEdit...now has a superscaling function so that you can do PIPs without having to go to AE...now you can still NOT overlay a sub BUT you can create a full sequence with overlays and bkg in a sub....

Just now understand that the stability and quality of VTEdit has shot way up..it still has the same limitations in regards to subs and DVEs etc...but no longer does it have the drag and drop stability issues and with superscaling allows you to do interactively in REALTIME what could only be done with a compositer before...

I hope that clarifies things ;)

FYI, I did seperate the two comments in my original statement ;)

Cheers,

radams
10-14-2005, 10:31 AM
I should also mention that Subs don't have to be just for editing..

For you LIVE guys... You can setup a sequence of Utilities that can control the switcher, keyer, etc... and you can preset or switch a show with them...so you can setup fairly complex setups and with a click on a sub or TED project have them execute... CAll it emem on steriods guys.

Cheers,

Ivan
10-14-2005, 11:13 AM
Although subprojects cannot be set to overlay in VTEdit, you can overlay them on live video from DDRs. Hmm, I thought that one of the things on the wish list for VT4 was to be able to control subprojects from the Control Tree the way we can control individual clips. Maybe in 5 or 6 or 20...

Ivan

ScorpioProd
10-14-2005, 05:14 PM
Yeah, I had the problems Jim described long ago, but not since around VT[4].

Ivan, how exactly do you mean you can overlay subprojects playing in a DDR over live video? You mean like chroma keying them? Not a real alpha key, right?

Bill, I hadn't tried the PIP DVE before, and though limited, yeah, that can work... But it's a shame that it forces a DVE to be uses as an Effect Filter, and therefore marks your clips with the BAM! like there's a problem with them when there really isn't. But it's better than nothing. :)

Ivan
10-14-2005, 05:49 PM
I did this once about six months ago and it worked. Try this:

Set up a lower third with text over an animated graphic, you can even use full frame video and just crop it.

Either save it as a project or select both clips and click create subproject.

Now open a DDR and either drag the project into it which will show up as a subproject or just drag the subproject into it from VTEdit.

Load up the switcher and select an input and use the DDR as you DSK.

If you forget to turn on overlay for a layer nothing above that layer will appear. The top layer on the timeline does not need overlay turned on for this to work.

Hmm, strange that it maintains transparency here but not in VTEdit. It even maintains transparency for the background of resized video used as overlay in the subproject.

Ivan

billmi
10-15-2005, 07:27 AM
Set up a lower third with text over an animated graphic, you can even use full frame video and just crop it.

Either save it as a project or select both clips and click create subproject.

Now open a DDR and either drag the project into it which will show up as a subproject or just drag the subproject into it from VTEdit.

Load up the switcher and select an input and use the DDR as you DSK.

If you forget to turn on overlay for a layer nothing above that layer will appear. The top layer on the timeline does not need overlay turned on for this to work.


I'm not in front of my VT at the moment to check, and it's not a feature I normally use, but isn't it possible to bring up a camera input into VTEdit? I seem to recal reading something about this somewhere. If that is possible, can it chroma-key in control tree?

If these two things are possible, then it should be possible to create a subproject for each of multiple cameras that keys the subproject, then overlay it on a DDR, and VIOLA - multiple camera virtual sets.

Jim_C
10-15-2005, 08:57 AM
I believe the camera icon in VTEdit just triggers a switch on the switcher to that camera. It doesnt feed the camera feed thru the VTEdit interface.

ScorpioProd
10-15-2005, 02:21 PM
As Jim said, the live stuff that you can put in VT-Edit is only for switcher triggering.

radams
10-15-2005, 04:19 PM
That is the point it is for setups and triggering...like an enhanced emem.

It does not put live footage into TED...just setups the switcher...
But that along with the other Utilities are a POWERFUL macro system for LIVE production and setups using a DDR....with a click on a sub made of Utilities you now have a whole new switcher setup...there are still some things missing but it is still VERY POWERFUL.

For many you could setup a whole show as events being switched just thru a DDR and subs of Utilities...

Try it you might like it ;)

Cheers,