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archiea
10-06-2005, 02:09 PM
...because it ain't out yet!!! HA.. Just having some fun guys... Flame away.. :D

Wade
10-06-2005, 02:20 PM
:tsktsk: Made me look you did.

archiea
10-06-2005, 02:31 PM
:tsktsk: Made me look you did.

Not only that, I got you talking like Yoda!! :D

holeycow
10-06-2005, 02:42 PM
Got me too.

archiea
10-06-2005, 03:34 PM
I'm waiting for HR giger to post and then lose his top!!! =D

Rabbitroo
10-07-2005, 01:59 PM
Yayyy! A new 8.5 thread to replace the locked one!
-K

erikals
10-07-2005, 02:04 PM
:king: Thought of doing the same, didn't dare..

Radamanthys
10-07-2005, 02:14 PM
by he way, except the lock of the topic, we dont get any news bout when 8,5 will be out ... kinda long now

hrgiger
10-07-2005, 02:49 PM
Well, I dont' wouldn't want to disappiont you by not reminding you how old and lame this joke is.

There's no surprise anymore. I see your name on a thread about a new update to lightwave and I already know it's a lame joke. You should get a new username.

lightmax
10-07-2005, 02:50 PM
The suspense is killing me.............I hope it will last!

:D not!

Jockomo
10-07-2005, 03:20 PM
I wish they would just come in here and post "not today" so we could go about our business without checking the forums every 2 hours.

Chuck
10-07-2005, 03:51 PM
Apologies, we should have mentioned sooner that we don't expect to post today or during the weekend!

Stooch
10-07-2005, 04:23 PM
when do you expect to post it ?

MonroePoteet
10-07-2005, 04:46 PM
C'mon, Stooch. Even I can answer that one.

Q: when do you expect to post it ?
A: As soon as we possibly can.

Do you *really* think they're just sitting on it? Or goofing around? Do you *honestly* think they won't release it as soon as it's good to go? Or keep its release a secret?

Remember: "What goes around, comes around", and "Treat others as you'd have them treat you."

My hope is that justice is served, and the people who've been ruthless about harrassing Newtek for the release of LW V8.5 get *exactly* the same behavior from their clients on their next 10 projects. No, the next *20* projects! Calls every hour on the hour, or maybe even every half hour demanding status updates with a complete disregard of the technical complexities involved.

mTp

Bog
10-07-2005, 05:31 PM
Goram it, don't DO that to me! I thought I'd missed out on three hours of LightWave 8.5 goodness while I was commuting home!

Kronenbourg Goodness it is. Pop, fizz, gurgle gurgle.

*rocks on Chucks chair*

How much further is it?

Are we there, yet?

I feel sick.

Are we there yet?

(ad nauseam)

Jockomo
10-07-2005, 05:35 PM
Apologies, we should have mentioned sooner that we don't expect to post today or during the weekend!

Thanks Chuck.

Joking aside, you guys take all the time you need. I'm sure you are working hard on getting it out asap AND with as few bugs as possible and we greatly appreciate it. I doubt we tell you that enough.

Bog
10-07-2005, 05:38 PM
Gawd, Chuck, I value my weekends to the point of charging double to work during them - not through avarice, but to stop people asking me to work weekends.

And using it must be an order of magnitude easier than writing it. I get yelled at to go home and spend time with my family at weekends - don't make me visit the same on you! ;)

Rabbitroo
10-07-2005, 06:44 PM
My hope is that justice is served, and the people who've been ruthless about harrassing Newtek for the release of LW V8.5 get *exactly* the same behavior from their clients on their next 10 projects. No, the next *20* projects! Calls every hour on the hour, or maybe even every half hour demanding status updates with a complete disregard of the technical complexities involved.

If I handed a press release like this to *my* clients and started accepting orders based on those claims on August 1st, I wouldn't be suprised they'd be calling me up on October 7th asking where the promised stuff is.

http://www.newtek.com/news/releases/08-01-05b.html

-K

:lightwave

DragonFist
10-07-2005, 11:20 PM
You have a point Rabbitroo. But, for me at least, the fact of communication lessens the frustration of it. I am glad that Chuck is communicating AND apologizing for any belatedness. I think that we all have misjudged the time needed for a project at some time or another. As long as those affected are kept abreast, the annoyance of this is lessened. After all, 8.5 and indeed, 9.0 ARE coming. It isn't like one paid for vaporware or something of the like.

ChillWill Graphix
10-08-2005, 12:33 AM
Flame me if you must, but I would almost rather NOT know when an update is going to be out - or that is even in the works. Frankly, it just seems like people get really negative about it (reference that locked down thread). I'd rather know when there is a "FIRM" release date. Just my two cents. That being said, I am very happy with my decision to own LightWave and foresee being a loyal customer for years to come ;-)

Later - Mike

Radamanthys
10-08-2005, 01:39 AM
Flame me if you must, but I would almost rather NOT know when an update is going to be out - or that is even in the works. Frankly, it just seems like people get really negative about it (reference that locked down thread). I'd rather know when there is a "FIRM" release date. Just my two cents. That being said, I am very happy with my decision to own LightWave and foresee being a loyal customer for years to come ;-)

Later - Mike

completly agree, we woundt be so disapointed if they told us release in end of october AND its true. here the problem is they exagerate their announce for the siggraph event (yeah right, available just after the show ... ok, thats maybe just words in a show, and compared to the age of the univers its, right after) and then also announce Q3/05 more officialy...

I think everybody here would prefere they announce for november and get it out end of october (= good news) then announce in august and release end of october.

inquisitive
10-08-2005, 02:47 AM
I was about to complain .. "where is the official email annoucement" hehe
:devil:

AbnRanger
10-08-2005, 02:48 AM
My hope is that justice is served, and the people who've been ruthless about harrassing Newtek for the release of LW V8.5 get *exactly* the same behavior from their clients on their next 10 projects. No, the next *20* projects! Calls every hour on the hour, or maybe even every half hour demanding status updates with a complete disregard of the technical complexities involved.

On top of that may they have dreams of clients popping out of nowhere...in the backseat of their vehicle...right in the middle of their doing the "Wild Thing"...on the John, everywhere..... occuring EVERY night until it's released.... "IS IT READY YET?!" :devil: mua..ha ha ha

ChillWill Graphix
10-08-2005, 07:31 AM
completly agree, we woundt be so disapointed if they told us release in end of october AND its true. here the problem is they exagerate their announce for the siggraph event (yeah right, available just after the show ... ok, thats maybe just words in a show, and compared to the age of the univers its, right after) and then also announce Q3/05 more officialy...

I think everybody here would prefere they announce for november and get it out end of october (= good news) then announce in august and release end of october.


Exactly my point - I was afraid that I was alone here LOL

Later - Mike

ChillWill Graphix
10-08-2005, 07:34 AM
On top of that may they have dreams of clients popping out of nowhere...in the backseat of their vehicle...right in the middle of their doing the "Wild Thing"...on the John, everywhere..... occuring EVERY night until it's released.... "IS IT READY YET?!" :devil: mua..ha ha ha


"Wild Thing"...on the John, everwhere..." EEEWWWWW and YUCK. To each there own, but... To do the "Wild Thing" on the John (Who's John? - odd words for sure) or on the John (as in the toilet) - nasty again~!

Later - Mike

Bog
10-08-2005, 07:41 AM
Are we there yet?




(No, no I don't think I'll get tired of doing this... ;) )

T-Light
10-08-2005, 08:43 AM
Are we there yet? no

Am I bored yet? NO NO NO, keep it up bog.
That sounds sarcastic, it isn't meant to. I've just realised that the update for 8.5 has probably been the most entertaining part of my life over these last few months.

JESUS H, WHAT KIND OF EF*ING LIFE AM I LEADING!!! :screwy:

Radamanthys
10-08-2005, 08:57 AM
here it is, no direct link but its there :

http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/updates/lw85/index.html (http://www.newtek.com/products/lightwave/downloads/updates/lw85/index.html)



















:jester: -->[ ]

Bog
10-08-2005, 09:17 AM
Are we there yet? no

How much further is it?

;)





JESUS H, WHAT KIND OF EF*ING LIFE AM I LEADING!!!

Lemme think. I'm commuting five hours a day on average, then laying down 10-12 hours of work, brown-bagging my lunches and forgetting what t'other half looks like.

And I'm still eager for 8.5, so I can do the exact same thing... but more so!

So yeah... yeah, I'm not sure what our problem is, mate, but I'm sure it's tricky to pronounce....

T-Light
10-08-2005, 10:10 AM
Bog-

So yeah... yeah, I'm not sure what our problem is, mate, but I'm sure it's tricky to pronounce....
Supercalifragilisticnewtekupdatitus :help:

Unfortunately, it's incurable. Once you get over one bout, there's another just around the corner. :D

Rabbitroo
10-08-2005, 10:43 AM
You have a point Rabbitroo. But, for me at least, the fact of communication lessens the frustration of it. I am glad that Chuck is communicating AND apologizing for any belatedness. I think that we all have misjudged the time needed for a project at some time or another. As long as those affected are kept abreast, the annoyance of this is lessened. After all, 8.5 and indeed, 9.0 ARE coming. It isn't like one paid for vaporware or something of the like.

I was reacting more to Monroe's tone of "justice" being served--to me it seems that NewTek bought and paid for the disappointment they're now reaping.

I, too, am glad Chuck is communicating but having worked in marketing a while myself, I am not at all suprised by the reactions.

To give you a personal picture of how badly NewTek miscommunicated, I placed my order for the 8.5 upgrade (I was still back on 7.5) priarily to get the promised "faster OpenGL performace." NewTek's sales rep tells me, "We'll send you 8 today and you'll be able to download the 8.5 patch in a couple of weeks."

Later, Chuck tells the Mac community not only will you *not* get OGL 2.0 support (some of us guessed that even though the press release is vague on that point) but rewriting the basic drawing routines was more difficult than they had planned, so that's slipped to LW 9.

Disappointed? Bought & Paid For. For NewTek (and it's apologists) to act all suprised is rediculous. To speak of "justice" is nonsense.

I've been on this ride for 7+ years through NewTek's ups & downs--I've lurked the forums quietly for more than 3. I've forgiven and worked around a lot as part of the LW Community. I've promoted LW where I work. I've made plugins freely avilable to the community. Yesterday, I lost the battle to do the next project on LW with my current employeer citing among other things, the poor support for the Mac platform.

It's time for NewTek to Wake Up.

Flame away!

-K

JML
10-08-2005, 12:14 PM
...Yesterday, I lost the battle to do the next project on LW with my current employeer citing among other things, the poor support for the Mac platform.
It's time for NewTek to Wake Up.


I understand you are pissed because you paid for the upgrade already and won't get the openGL speed.
it's newtek fault for not saying before that the fast openGL will be for PC only.

but as chuck said 50 times, it's not their fault they could not add openGL2 and 64 bit LW to OSx.
of course, they would have prefer to have LW64 and openGL2 on OSX too,
because they don't want to lose OSX customers.
But in that case, they could not add it because of osx limitation.
And I'm sure that as soon as apple work on that, they will bring LW64 to mac just like other software companies will.. (and ogl2)

you complained about bugs on mac, but the pc version have bugs too.
in our company, we use pc and mac. (mostly mac). and I don't hear
people complaining too much. and when they do , they complain
about things which affect LW on PC too.
so when they complain, they don't complain on LWmac they complain on LW itself, pc or mac.
I know it depends on what tools you use, but if you are having problems with LW on mac, I think it would not be better on pc.

I'm waiting 8.5 and mostly 9 and hoping LW will be better than right now.
and closer to competition.

JML
10-08-2005, 12:31 PM
Herve on maxwell forums said he was beta testing LW8.5 with maxwell n wednesday (and no problems). so hopefully it should come out really soon..

Rabbitroo
10-08-2005, 01:03 PM
I understand you are pissed because you paid for the upgrade already and won't get the openGL speed.
it's newtek fault for not saying before that the fast openGL will be for PC only.




OGL 2.0 has nothing to do with LW's poor perfromance with OGL 1.5. Yes, we knew we weren't getting 64-bit. Yes, we all knew we wouldn't get HW shader support, but the oft promised improvements in OGL 1.5 speed aren't comming in 8.5 either--they'll be in LW9 (I assume for both PC and MAC.) I'm not pissed about what my platfrom can't do, I'm pissed about what they're not taking advantage of that's already there and wasting their valuable dev cycles on things that they *know* only benefit the XP64 and those folks with OGL 2.0 complian Vid cards.

To quote Chuck from post #35 of this thread: http://vbulletin.newtek.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=305835


As for overall OpenGL performance, LightWave uses custom drawing routines that at one time were advantageous for broader compatibility on a variety of cards including older ones, and for cards with lower RAM than would otherwise be required. They've lost that advantage long since, with the result that for some time now on both platforms LightWave's display performance has not kept up, and the problem is considerably more aggravated on the Mac. I think the dev team had hoped to include some of the changes that have been worked on in that regard in 8.5, but it looks like that work was not sufficiently complete to include in 8.5, while the hardware shader first generation implementation was. So as nearly as I can tell, at least the majority of the performance improvements on OpenGL due to replacement of our older routines with newer state-of-the-art approaches that gain the advantages of the current hardware will be part of the 9.0 update. All elements of those changes that apply to whatever level of support is current in OS X at the time v9 is released will apply to both platforms. We do expect that LightWave OpenGL performance on the Mac will be equal to other applications on the Mac at that point.

It's all a matter of priorities. They should have been fixing the OGL 1.5 implementation that *all* their users could benefit from rather than ephasizing these other projects. That's why my boss dumped NewTek yesterday--they don't get it.

Hopefully on Monday, we'll get another defensive post from Chuck as to why they claimed things that weren't true in the press release, why they used the verb "released" when they clearly hadn't, etc.

It just makes my blood boil when people use the word "justice" when I turned over my hard-earned money for my own system as an personal expression of faith in NewTek and they have so severly let me down.

I loved LW. I've fought for LW when other's lost faith. But I'm not going to endorse NT's deceptive business and communications practices and call it "Justice."

Cheers!
-K

DragonFist
10-08-2005, 01:32 PM
I understand.

Rabbitroo
10-08-2005, 01:53 PM
I understand.

Thanks. I needed that. :)

:lightwave

MonroePoteet
10-08-2005, 03:17 PM
It just makes my blood boil when people use the word "justice" when I turned over my hard-earned money for my own system as an personal expression of faith in NewTek and they have so severly let me down.

I loved LW. I've fought for LW when other's lost faith. But I'm not going to endorse NT's deceptive business and communications practices and call it "Justice."


Did you read my post? I'm not trying to justify what Newtek said, or didn't say, nor am I trying to justify the late shipping of LW V8.5. I'm saying that ruthlessly harrassing them does more harm than help. The locked thread devolved into ruthless harrassment, IMO, and this one looked like it was headed the same direction.

Each of us has to decide for ourself whether we think Newtek is honest or dishonest, responsible or irresponsible. I think they are honest and responsible. They took a risk, and the risk blew up in their face. Having been in the same position, perhaps I have more sympathy for their point of view. My guess is they feel bad enough without having the user community rub salt in the wound.

mTp

DragonFist
10-08-2005, 03:33 PM
I agree there too.

Not to sound "on the fence". I understand how Rabbit feels. But I know that Newtek is working on it. And as long as they keep me abreast of things so I don't go waiting all day for a release that isn't going to happen, I can wait. In other words, I can wait as long as I know that I should be waiting and not expecting it any moment.

Lottmedia
10-08-2005, 03:47 PM
IMPORTANT-This is not an invitation to flame or start an argument but to discuss real issues about NT. I'm not intrested in arguments and they arn't needed on these forums.

Well, I have to say this is not the first (or third) time this has happened. Yes, we've all missed deadlines, but in the past year or 2, I have never seen a NT timeframe met. This update is just another example. If this was a singular event I don't think there would be nearly the reaction there is but the fact of the matter is that it is not. It is a consistant-to-the-point-of-being-constant occurance. I don't know of another software company with that kind of record. This is not about checking for bugs or coding faster, it's not even about this particular update, this is not a technology issue, it's a business practices issue. I'm not slamming anyone here but again it's an issue that needs to be addressed and one that I think can do serious harm if it isn't. The big problem is that I don't see what can be done. These forums don't seem to be the answer, people have been raising the issue here for years and it dosen't appear to be affecting it at all.

Bog
10-08-2005, 04:05 PM
..... are we there yet?

Rabbitroo
10-08-2005, 04:07 PM
Did you read my post?
A bit off topic, but yes, I did read your post. It appeared to wish significant ill on those who are a little t-offed at NewTek at this point and suggested that this "ill" would be justice.

I apologize if I've misunderstood your intent. No doubt I misunderstood the swipe at Mac users that closed down the last thead. (After Chuck got the last word, of course.)

-T

Bill Carey
10-08-2005, 04:10 PM
To give you a personal picture of how badly NewTek miscommunicated, I placed my order for the 8.5 upgrade (I was still back on 7.5) priarily to get the promised "faster OpenGL performace." NewTek's sales rep tells me, "We'll send you 8 today and you'll be able to download the 8.5 patch in a couple of weeks."

Later, Chuck tells the Mac community not only will you *not* get OGL 2.0 support (some of us guessed that even though the press release is vague on that point) but rewriting the basic drawing routines was more difficult than they had planned, so that's slipped to LW 9.


I'm just curious, after you found out you weren't going to get what you paid for, did you go to newtek, explain the situation and get your money back? That's what you'd do if it was anything you bought from a store, why is this different? Ranting and raving for months until v9 comes out and hopefully solves the issue seems pointless.

It seems unlikely Newtek had this situation in mind when they made the original announcements, they were optimistic and exuberant with a new development team, things didn't go as planned. If you don't feel 8.0-8.5 is worth the money without the OGL improvements, call them up and work it out, then get over it.

And have a nice day. (Sorry, couldn't help myself)

Bill

Bog
10-08-2005, 04:16 PM
Hum.

New version of LightWave is later than advertised. That's something that happens - last minute "Oh **** We Can't Release It Like This" bugs rear their ugly heads. Microsoft call 'em Features, Adobe charge Ģ200 for the .5 upgrade patch that may or may not fix your bug.... NewTek release late sometimes, and then shower us with free upgrades between Point Oh versions.

I'd rather it was a bit late. We all remember LightWave 6.0, right?

None of us want that again.

*shudder*

I can see your point if you've paid for an upgrade for this very thing, yeah, but given the treatment other software manufacturers give us, I'm happy with how NewTek do things. It's frustrating sometimes, but at least they're not giving us something broken.

Good things happen to those who wait.

Rabbitroo
10-08-2005, 04:18 PM
I'm just curious, after you found out you weren't going to get what you paid for, did you go to newtek, explain the situation and get your money back? That's what you'd do if it was anything you bought from a store, why is this different? Ranting and raving for months until v9 comes out and hopefully solves the issue seems pointless.

It seems unlikely Newtek had this situation in mind when they made the original announcements, they were optimistic and exuberant with a new development team, things didn't go as planned. If you don't feel 8.0-8.5 is worth the money without the OGL improvements, call them up and work it out, then get over it.

And have a nice day. (Sorry, couldn't help myself)

Bill

I've been strung along on promises to this point--I had to give NT every chance until yesterday's meeting to decide our platform decisions for our next big project since I was sole person arguing for a LW outcome. Fortunately, my company's decision to take another path solved this for me. I'll probably ask for my money back on Monday.

I'll be over it once my money is returned.

You have a nice day, too. :neener:

-K

swpspce
10-08-2005, 06:39 PM
I don't know of another software company with that kind of record.

really ??? Then you may not have had the pleasure of dealing with other such "innovative" companies. I can think of several instances (In the Audio Software Industry) where I had/have been awaiting eagerly for a promised update - only which arrived much later than announced on their progress page.

And this was not for one product but for three...oh, this is my favourite approach.

< Imagine this >
Go onto Audio Software Developer page, look at the product you intend to purchase. Product page states "New mac OS X Ready...", download here.
You can only access the download if you have registered the product and in the public forum there are no issues regarding the update. Sweet.

So, now I happily go to the nearest reseller and purchase the software. Get home - register the product online - login to my newly created account and discover that the said update is not availble. To my horror - I discover that the "public forum" for the software company is monitored and any mention to the update not being available are deleted from the public forum.

Lets just say - I bought the product September 2003 and the Mac OS X update arrived December 2003. Although I was led to believe it was ready to download - immediately.
<Imagine This>

guess - what I am trying to say is you could be treated a lot worse!!!!
sorry for being so loong winded - excuse my lengthy explanation

Lottmedia
10-08-2005, 07:08 PM
Yes you could be treated a lot worse, but that's not an excuse for ill treatment. You could be killed on the street at night, that's no reason to be happy you were only mugged. That logic just dosen't work with me.

Dangerman
10-08-2005, 08:14 PM
Lightwave 8.5 is judged the spunkiest release in over a decade
Robust and dangerous, LW 8.5 broke through 17 inches of solid brick, dodged a barrage of bullets and made good it's escape into the Texas night.

After stealing a Jaguar and picking up a few virgins, LW8.5 jolted across town to rescue the first of many endangered kittens.

"We'll be back!", they were heard to shout above the din of of the screaming jag (kittens in full harmony).

It's unknown where they will next be spotted, but know this:
They are gaining strength.
They will not be stopped.
They are coming for you!

Meowwwww.

Dangerman
10-08-2005, 08:30 PM
I love the comical nature of this thread, LW users just having fun.
There's a lot of people taking it a bit too serious perhaps (Chuck, don't kill the threads .... play along, let's all have some fun here).

Newtek is blessed to have such a loyal bunch of fans waiting for the next heartbeat.

Let Newtek take the necessary time.

If you really love Lightwave...
*Really* love Lightwave.
You should be encouraging Newtek to delay, delay delay. Find your favorite flaw and offer it up as the first virgin.

Have a poll for your favorite 8.5 expectation, and then realize that if you rush 8.5, you might end up with exactly the opposite of your dream.

Let's work together.

Let's shoot for the best rather than the immediate.

But whatever you think, let's keep this kind of fun silliness alive and spurn the "Evil Chuck, killer of the virgin kitten thread."

(And I'm only kidding Chuck, you're batting 400 in my book).

Go Newtek. Go Newtek Customers. Go Newtek Distractors. Go Lightwave!!!

Jockomo
10-08-2005, 08:44 PM
Roflmao Dangerman

I feel your pain Rabbitroo, or at least I felt it last time around. Now I won't send Newtek my money until it is shipping and some reviews are in, regardless of what software they are giving away with it. It makes it easier to take this stuff in stride.

It is great to announce the point when people who purchase a new seat will get a free upgrade.
I think it is fine to announce the point when whoever upgrades now will get a free bit of software.
I think it is super for them to drop info about what they are working on and for proton to give some demonstrations before the release,(along with a big fat disclaimer everytime saying that -this is in beta and may or not make it into the next release.)
But beyond that I think they should go back to their policy of saying: it will be released when it is ready. No more soon, no more dates, just when it is ready.

As far as marketing goes - I think making sure a demo version is available and easy to find would be a thousand times more effective than any of the marketing hype they have come out with in the last few years.
Really, all that stuff is pointless if the person you get excited can't download something to play with. They're just going to wander over to Alias and download their demo and guess what, you just lost another user. It really makes no sense to me. Point releases should not release unless there is a demo version to release the same day.

All of that being said, I do think the direction NewTek is headed with the software is right on track. I love the direction they are going with dynamics. I love that they realised the dynamics needed to be more robust and are making efforts to improve it. I love that they are listening to the users more now and it shows in the releases.

monfoodoo
10-08-2005, 09:04 PM
That is not EVEN funny.

Rabbitroo
10-08-2005, 09:24 PM
That is not EVEN funny.

How about Kittens again?

Here's Charlton Heston's Kitten:

kcole
10-08-2005, 09:26 PM
Little known fact of software development. Fixing non-critical bugs right before release is scientifically proven to create critical bugs. :) So I'm sure they're fixing the criticals and working hard to get it out to us. Plus working on v9.0 ofc! I heard a rumor it will be out next week!

Well not really, but someone had to start the rumor!

Karmacop
10-08-2005, 09:42 PM
Little known fact of software development. Fixing non-critical bugs right before release is scientifically proven to create critical bugs. :)

I was making an online forum once and one of my last "fixes" was to change the way that user logins were processed. I tested it and I logged in alright so I thought everything was fine. The next day I was showing a friend and to my surprise they managed to login to my account with the incorrect password. It turns out when I changed the login procedure (maybe 2 lines different) I managed to change the logins to not test the password for the user. Luckily this was only an assignment for school, but it backs up your fact ;)

Bill Carey
10-08-2005, 10:39 PM
I'll be over it once my money is returned.

You have a nice day, too. :neener:

-K

LOL, love that icon!

You were trying to get LW picked for a project based on a new release? You've got guts, I'll give you that. :bowdown:

Dangerman
10-08-2005, 10:50 PM
Here's Charlton Heston's Kitten:
Laughed so hard I broke a rib!!!

Rabbitroo
10-08-2005, 11:18 PM
LOL, love that icon!

You were trying to get LW picked for a project based on a new release? You've got guts, I'll give you that. :bowdown:

I was actually trying to save LW in our pipeline--the main gripe we've been hitting is GL performance--most of the rest we've worked around and we *love* Fprime! I use LW for pre-Viz work, so I'm already an odd-duck compared to the others. Unfortunately the argument, "it'll get better" withered in the face of straight-on competition. (Also, we've picked up to many guys schooled in Maya. :/)

Oh well, at least we're not flushing our dongles down the toilet. I get another shot at it next spring--I should be able to make LW 9's dynamics sing by then. I just know how these decisions go--once people get comfortable with a pipeline, it'll be ten-times harder to take us back to LW.

Now I gotta waste my time learning enough Maya to keep myself looking useful. (I can find my way around, but the leaning curve seems to be near verticle.) Using Maya it feels like I'm doing everything the long-way around. Heigh-ho, life in sili-valley. :p

Rabbitroo
10-08-2005, 11:28 PM
Laughed so hard I broke a rib!!!

Here's another one--pick your own caption.

-K

AbnRanger
10-09-2005, 01:44 AM
Here's Charlton Heston's Kitten
"The Milk-man is late AGAIN!" :2guns:

AbnRanger
10-09-2005, 02:05 AM
"Wild Thing"... on the John, everwhere..." EEEWWWWW and YUCK. To each there own, but... To do the "Wild Thing" on the John (Who's John? - odd words for sure) or on the John (as in the toilet) - nasty again~!

Let me rephrase it, to make it a little clearer.... "when doing the Wild Thing OR when you are on the John (toilet), etc...every place you go...Bam! your clients pop up, "Is it Ready Yet?!!"

Sorry, just having a little fun. :D

T-Light
10-09-2005, 07:46 AM
Rabbitroo-

Now I gotta waste my time learning enough Maya to keep myself looking useful.
Ouch!
Sorry to hear that Rabbitroo, last few times I've read your posts I just thought you were been anti for anti's sake, I appologise.

ps Love the Heston Kitten. :D

hrgiger
10-09-2005, 08:23 AM
I'm not pissed about what my platfrom can't do, I'm pissed about what they're not taking advantage of that's already there and wasting their valuable dev cycles on things that they *know* only benefit the XP64 and those folks with OGL 2.0 complian Vid cards.


Hmmm, wasting their development cycles on things that will only benefit.... I have to say I take issue with that. Why should they not take advantage of new technologies just because certain users who use certain platforms can't take advantage of them right away? It's not Newtek's fault you won't be able to use them, it's Apples. I think it's Apple you should be criticizing here, not Newtek. Why should I have to wait around for some OpenGL support just because Apple can't get with the program?[pun intended] Perhaps, I'm reading into your post wrong and if I am, my apologies but that stance seems a bit selfish.

Nemoid
10-09-2005, 08:24 AM
I think NewTek should be a bit more careful with these announcements.

I know perfectly that during development unknown problems can pop up, but its also about a company's reputation on the market to respect deadlines.

Adding maybe a month to the estimate date as someone's said could be a real benefit. users will not complain about a product released before the date it was announced :)

this being said , we know 8.5 will come soon. maybe 9.0 will come a bit later.. but i personally have no prob with that.
the prob is, other users could.

CB_3D
10-09-2005, 08:42 AM
I donīt get You guys.

Ours installed just fine, no problem here??!

Dangerman
10-09-2005, 08:50 AM
Here's another one--pick your own caption.

-K
Jojo and Clarissa, after swearing they heard the Lightwave truck go by.

FlynnWAVE
10-09-2005, 08:53 AM
Managers shake with fury when they hear those words. This is just how modern American business is run. Schedules, deadlines, and political CYA. All part of the super silliness businesses use to make money. Personally, I like the more laid back approach, but being an engineer, I can afford that point of view.

I have found that software release schedules are more about managing expectations than most anything else. The technical part is pretty cut and dry, other than engineering mishaps/miracles not much is going to change it. The project managers have the hardest job explaining what the features will do at the user level and why the user won't get "my favorite feature" yesterday.

This is just part and parcel of the process. Sometimes the team gets lucky and has a rare 'zone' moment and delivers on time, but most times things just start falling apart. Then the pressure is on. I find when I am under this kind of development pressure, blocking everything out and concentrating on my one task (get the feature to work) is pretty much the only way for me to remain sane.

Seeing as how my involvment with LW is still on a 'semi-serious hobby' level, I can easily empathise with the dev team and just wait for the dev cycle to run its course. Others aren't so lucky. Business pressures don't wait very well. I hope LW gets back on track for you Rabbitroo and you can convince your people to come back. Till then, have fun creating and knowing that whatever your tool of choice, it's always harder than it should be.

-FlynnWAVE

Rabbitroo
10-09-2005, 09:18 AM
Rabbitroo-

Ouch!
Sorry to hear that Rabbitroo, last few times I've read your posts I just thought you were been anti for anti's sake, I appologise.

ps Love the Heston Kitten. :D

No problemmo. ;) I still get to use LW for my personal projects.
-K

Bog
10-09-2005, 09:29 AM
One thing to bear in mind with 3D software release dates is that we're on the bleeding edge of research and development. Prancing around in experimental territory, if you will - or perhaps doing the Bolero through a minefield. Release dates aren't rock-solid because the math is spooky and the code mind-nurgling. NewTek are generally pretty good about not promising the moon on a stick - or at least giving themselves wiggle-room for release schedules.

Maybe it's because I used to be a physicist, and grok the whole "It's experimental, it's not set in stone, we're exploring new territories" thing that I'm generally (but not always (ooooh, the strop I threw over HyperVoxels 2.0! Gawd!)) more understanding. That, and the tools mainly do what I need 'em to do, and when they don't, I can normally find a work-around that I'm not too upset about Late Point Five.

I guess it's a whole different kettle of fish if it's not doing what you need, and you can't find a workaround.

Rabbitroo
10-09-2005, 09:30 AM
Why should I have to wait around for some OpenGL support just because Apple can't get with the program?[pun intended] Perhaps, I'm reading into your post wrong and if I am, my apologies but that stance seems a bit selfish.

I'm glad NT's dev priorities worked out for you. It's not Apple's fault that LW can push half the polys Modo can, it's NT's old drawing routines. (Check Chuck's post again.) It's all a matter of priority--you'll get your bells and whistles sooner (OGL 2.0 shaders for a some PC machines with recent Vid Cards and XP64 for those brave souls), but all platforms (PC & Mac) won't get substantially improved handling of turning a basic wireframe any sooner than I. I just think handling high-poly models is probably a higher priority to than OGL 2.0 for a lot of us, PC & Mac.

Anyhow, it's over for me. I'm not going to take the "It's Apple's fault" bait.

Cheers!
-K

Oh, and guess which kitten had his Prozac today?

Radamanthys
10-09-2005, 09:43 AM
being a mac and PC user, my point is mitigate, for sure a fastest drawing speed would be great on Mac, but at the same time i'm sure that being able to preview many things in OpenGL will speed up alot the workflow.

And as openGl is concerned, the fault is also on Apple as i can see from benchmark:
Cinebench HardWare OpenGL test:

Mac Dual G5 2 GHz, 6800 GT 256 Mo : 1432
PC 4600+, 6800 GT 256 Mo: 2781

so, as for now i use the PC for Lightwave and vue 5, and the Mac for Video/compositing

JML
10-09-2005, 10:30 AM
being a pc user, and having coworker working on osx,
there is something else between pc and mac,
my coworker can make a scene with 6-7 million polys and render fine on osx, but on my winXP, my maximum is like 3-4million depending on image files, and at this point, my 'RenderDisplay ImageViewer' might not work while render high rez images because of lack of memory..

I'm just saying that not everything is better on pc.. and that LW on osX has some advantages over pc..

having this memory limit on pc is annoying sometimes, hopefully, LW9 will have better memory management with its new rendering engine.
(I'm using 32bit XP, don't want to switch to 64bit XP and don't want to spend money on 6gigs of ram ;) )

nthused
10-09-2005, 11:13 AM
...having this memory limit on pc is annoying sometimes, hopefully, LW9 will have better memory management with its new rendering engine.
(I'm using 32bit XP, don't want to switch to 64bit XP and don't want to spend money on 6gigs of ram ;) )

Actually you'll need Win64 and LightWave 64 to take advantage of the RAM. I've got 4GB - but can only use 2 with Lightwave. Be patient...LW64 is just around the corner...

Rabbitroo
10-09-2005, 11:21 AM
And as openGl is concerned, the fault is also on Apple as i can see from benchmark:
Cinebench HardWare OpenGL test:

Mac Dual G5 2 GHz, 6800 GT 256 Mo : 1432
PC 4600+, 6800 GT 256 Mo: 2781


Cinebench 2003 uses Maxon's OGL implementation of draw routines, which is more performant on PCs than Macs. It'll tell you how well C4D will do, but regrettably it won't predict how well Lightwave, Modo, or Maya (which all seem to use different implementations of draw routines.)

In my experiments for my team (testing with various size objects ranging from 2M down to 250K polygons) and measuring frame rates of simple rotation (e.g. a matrix-driven revolution of the object in an 800 x 600 viewport), I found that rotating the exact same model:

1. Modo 102 (was by far faster)
2. Maya (? Seems high, but that's how it measured)
3. C4D 9.1
4. LW 8.3

All these sample tests were carried out on the platform below (e.g. my personal system.)

Not the most scientific set of tests, but it did give us a picture of what the user experience of performance would be on Macs similar to mine. Overall PCs did better on OGL rotations & moves, but the benchmarking tools to measure frame rates gave us more trouble. (On XP, it seems some programs really disliked our tool probing the OGL buffer.) It isn't easy to give a similar ranking for PCs, but Modo seemed to do better than most on the same XP box I borrowed from work.

Food for thought: Why is Modo faster (e.g. higher frame-rates for moving OGL objects) than LW on the same platform, with the same OS, with the graphics card? My suspecion is it's in the drawing routines--Chuck's own posts seem to bear this out.

-K

Rabbitroo
10-09-2005, 11:27 AM
being a pc user, and having coworker working on osx,
there is something else between pc and mac,
my coworker can make a scene with 6-7 million polys and render fine on osx, but on my winXP, my maximum is like 3-4million depending on image files, and at this point, my 'RenderDisplay ImageViewer' might not work while render high rez images because of lack of memory..

I'm just saying that not everything is better on pc.. and that LW on osX has some advantages over pc..

having this memory limit on pc is annoying sometimes, hopefully, LW9 will have better memory management with its new rendering engine.
(I'm using 32bit XP, don't want to switch to 64bit XP and don't want to spend money on 6gigs of ram ;) )

You ran into some of the differences in memory management between Windows-based OS's and OSX flavors. We've noticed the same effect across many applications between our XP and OSX machines. Our plan is to switch our Intel-based machines to XP64 as soon as the platform and all the apps in our pipeline settle down. Once we move those to XP64, we expect Windows machines will far outstrip Macs in the size of a scene they can effectively process. Our best guess is that we'll be "pipeline stable" in 6-12 months for XP64. (We're also following Linux closely, but our pipeline isn't there yet--maybe as studios like Disney push Linux, we'll see stable 64-bit pipelines on Linux, maybe SuSE or RedHat.)

-K

kcole
10-09-2005, 02:18 PM
8.5 running just fine here! Indisputable proof:
http://static.intervocative.com/kcole/LW85.jpg

Rabbitroo
10-09-2005, 02:21 PM
Wow! . . . . . .

mav3rick
10-09-2005, 02:40 PM
lol hahhaha

hrgiger
10-09-2005, 03:56 PM
I'm glad NT's dev priorities worked out for you. It's not Apple's fault that LW can push half the polys Modo can, it's NT's old drawing routines. (Check Chuck's post again.) It's all a matter of priority--you'll get your bells and whistles sooner (OGL 2.0 shaders for a some PC machines with recent Vid Cards and XP64 for those brave souls), but all platforms (PC & Mac) won't get substantially improved handling of turning a basic wireframe any sooner than I. I just think handling high-poly models is probably a higher priority to than OGL 2.0 for a lot of us, PC & Mac.



Well, I agree with you that the drawing routines should be a higher priority then the OGL shaders but if you note, both were originally supposed to be in the 8.5 update. It's unfortunate for all that they've been pushed back to 9 or beyond. But I still find having OGL shaders very useful and am glad they are going to be a part of 8.5.

Stooch
10-09-2005, 03:57 PM
You should be encouraging Newtek to delay, delay delay.

my god, all this time! you are right, delay newtek, delay delay! thats the ultimate and the simplest solution of all time. all clients love that too! such genius!

[image removed due to user complaint]
another one bites the dust.

hrgiger
10-09-2005, 04:13 PM
stuffonmycat.com is a wonderful site.

Rabbitroo
10-09-2005, 04:59 PM
Well, I agree with you that the drawing routines should be a higher priority then the OGL shaders but if you note, both were originally supposed to be in the 8.5 update. It's unfortunate for all that they've been pushed back to 9 or beyond. But I still find having OGL shaders very useful and am glad they are going to be a part of 8.5.

Well good, we agree on something at least. I also conceed the utility of OGL 2 HW shaders--just not our priority. ;)

-K

:lightwave

Rabbitroo
10-09-2005, 05:10 PM
Being a Mac guy in 3D can sometimes feel very lonely . . .

Dangerman
10-09-2005, 09:14 PM
my god, all this time! you are right, delay newtek, delay delay! thats the ultimate and the simplest solution of all time. all clients love that too! such genius!
[Image removed due to user complaint]
another one bites the dust.

I'd love to have the best software already installed, but after some of the trash that got released just a few weeks before it was ready, I'm in no rush.

I've actually decided not to delete my current install ever, or tell my clients that I refuse to work and that it's all Newtek's fault.

Instant gratification or stable software? Let me think about that for ... as long as it takes.

mav3rick
10-10-2005, 06:00 AM
speakin of mac..... well... they are compatible only with themself and we ( 80% of normal computer world) have to acomodate them to be able to run all those stupid formats, not to mention FONTS and FONT conversions....

Bog
10-10-2005, 07:36 AM
*kicks back of driver's seat again and again and again*

How much further is it?

Are we there yet?

I need a wee.

JML
10-10-2005, 08:09 AM
yeah, I think it would be nice of them to let us know roughly when it will be out.
if it's days or weeks or month, at least just let us know.

JML
10-10-2005, 08:24 AM
also, I thought 8.5 openGL improvement was because newtek bought
"poetry in motion" but now, the guy said that he did not sell it to newtek..

so now, I'm wondering, openGL in 8.5 seems to look nice but is it going to as fast as poetry in motion... I hope so..
I guess we will see..



"poetry in motion"
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=248382&page=1&pp=15

Bog
10-10-2005, 08:27 AM
Yeah, a ballpark figure of when it might be out would be sweet. Nonessential... but sweet.

hrgiger
10-10-2005, 10:13 AM
also, I thought 8.5 openGL improvement was because newtek bought
"poetry in motion" but now, the guy said that he did not sell it to newtek..

so now, I'm wondering, openGL in 8.5 seems to look nice but is it going to as fast as poetry in motion... I hope so..
I guess we will see..
"poetry in motion"
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=248382&page=1&pp=15

Why would you think Newtek bought Poetry in Motion?

As far as I know, OGL is going to be as slow as ever in Lightwave 8.5. Hopefully though, the new OGL shaders are relying more on the video card so that it doesn't bog down Lightwave any further than it already is.

I have heard that new drawing routines are coming in the 9.0 release or beyond which should address Lightwave's crippling tortoise like interface. And it's long overdue.

Wickster
10-10-2005, 10:33 AM
I'm both a MAC and PC user, both have their respective strength and weaknesses and I use my LW on both. Could we just stop that there. I'd hate to have this thread locked again because of that.

I mean Iknow people have to voice their opinions on that but don't dis each other out. I'm most proud of the Lightwave community being a tight knit group helping each other out. Don't let that go to waste by dissing their platform of choice.


*kicks back of driver's seat again and again and again*

How much further is it?

Are we there yet?

I need a wee.
Aww geez bog how many times do you have to go? I told you to stop drinking those Ultimate XXXXXL soda pops. I'm stopping the LW 8.5 Bus but you're going to have to go on the bushes. :D

fabmedia
10-10-2005, 10:50 AM
Waste of a post.... sorry

Radamanthys
10-10-2005, 11:02 AM
its ouuuuuuuuuuuuuttttttttttttttttttt :) :) :) :)

http://www.newtek-europe.com/fr/support/downloads/lw85_update_info.html



:D :D :D

Brian Arndt
10-10-2005, 11:40 AM
for US:
http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/downloads/lightwave85.php

Bog
10-10-2005, 02:34 PM
Aww geez bog how many times do you have to go? I told you to stop drinking those Ultimate XXXXXL soda pops. I'm stopping the LW 8.5 Bus but you're going to have to go on the bushes.

Actually, I'm going to take a wee off the top of the world 'CAUSE WE'RE THERE, BABY!!!!!!