PDA

View Full Version : Autodesk buys Alias!



Scott_Blinn
10-04-2005, 03:30 PM
This is big news in the CG world!

http://www.deathfall.com/article.php?sid=5782

dballesg
10-04-2005, 03:44 PM
Wow! :( One of the worst news I can read :(

What it is now Maya Max, Max Maya :( Mayax?

I was kidding with a friend yesterday about eclipses beign heralds of disgrace :)

I respect Alias Maya as a program, but never liked 3D Max. Have the worst interface in all history. In fact I bought LightWave 4.0 to left 3D Studio when still was a DOS program.

And never changed of program since then, but of course as a curious user I tried to look any other programs. Likes what I saw in Maya.

I think Newtek must think on buy XSI! :)

But with the news that they announced for LW 9 :) Who cares!! :) :lightwave

David.

spirit_of_stars
10-04-2005, 03:57 PM
We don't know what are their intentions. But 3DS Max have 80% of the market and Maya is the most universal (good cloths, good hairs, good fluids dynamic, rigid body dynamic, paint tool, animation system [Kaydara]... )

If they fuse Max and Maya (mayax...), Newtek, Softimage, and the others one, will have to be inovative...

Ok. People use Lightwave and Softimage because the they don't like Maya or Max... But both are really powerfull in many way. If they keep the forces of each one,... A new and powerfull aplication will raise.

Personnally I don't know how they can fuse. Max is very fast and simple to use because of is stack. And Maya is a node based software.

Maybe they will keep both applications...

somnambulance
10-04-2005, 03:59 PM
bad joke :D

hrgiger
10-04-2005, 04:01 PM
I'm not sure if this is good news, bad news, or neither.

Earl
10-04-2005, 04:04 PM
Sure makes me glad I'm a 'waver. :lwicon: I'd hate to have an investment in 3D be put into stress over a merger. Working at an engineering firm, I must admit I loath Autodesk. They're like the microspat of drafting. If I were a user of Maya I'd be quite depressed over this news. Thankfully, I'm not. :D

Here's a cheer to NewTek! :newtek:

somnambulance
10-04-2005, 04:38 PM
I dont like it...

archiea
10-04-2005, 04:46 PM
both products will continue on their own.. Autodesk bought discreet and not only kept the high end discreet products but continued to develope new ones.

Autodesk Maya.. HA!! I love it!!! AudoDesk Lightwave... Yikes...

triiko
10-04-2005, 04:52 PM
...that's it....I'm updating my Lightwave license!

Steve McRae
10-04-2005, 05:16 PM
[QUOTE=spirit_of_stars]. . . But 3DS Max have 80% of the market . . . [QUOTE]

???

Vision1
10-04-2005, 05:25 PM
Wel i think it is bad news for every other 3D app

why because they can do more research than others can do so it will harder for them to compete

kml12
10-04-2005, 05:53 PM
Interesting news, :screwy:

No matter what share they have lots of it will come down to marketing, and price point. Back when I first bought LW I was looking at both Maya & Max but the price point of LW blew them out of the water.

Back then I realized my final output is dependant on me, not just my app :thumbsup:

There will always be a Goliath, and there will always be a David :angel:

FONGOOL
10-04-2005, 05:57 PM
3DS Max have 80% of the market

:stumped: 80% of WHAT market? Not TV and movies. Videogames maybe.

WizCraker
10-04-2005, 06:00 PM
Autodesk will have Max for Games, Maya for Film and TV, Studio Tools for Automotive and the AutoCAD series for Civil, Mechanical, Landscape and Architectual design.

Sounds like the perfect solution company to me, now if they drop the price to compete with Lightwave users then it might get interesting.

Noticed that the aquisition was for $182 Million in Cash.

Kuzey
10-04-2005, 06:04 PM
Does that mean there won't be a Mac version of Maya...that could be great news for Lightwave.

Or will there be a Mac Max version...also good news for Lightwave as it will surely sux big time.

:)

Kuzey

hrgiger
10-04-2005, 06:11 PM
All I know is that the bigger a company gets, the less they're likely to focus on their individual customers and focus more on their bigger clients. Which is bad news for the individual users I think.

And yeah, I think that price is (one of) Max's weak points. They're about the only mid to high end 3D app that did not drop their prices to jive with the market. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised to see them lose some of their hobbyist/freelance base, especially when there are comparable apps out there for less money (i.e. Lightwave, Cinema4D, etc...)

Vision1
10-04-2005, 06:11 PM
i'am sneaking (gollum said that :P )

here are some FAQ
http://images.autodesk.com/adsk/files/Autodesk_Alias_External_FAQ.pdf

somnambulance
10-04-2005, 06:35 PM
Maya PLE...

I think there will be a bit of an opening after the the transaction is complete (6 months) and the next wave of versions, for other 3D apps to pickup Mayas former game studio clients.

Chris S. (Fez)
10-04-2005, 06:50 PM
As a Max user I can't help but be excited. I thought Polyboost 2.0 was the best news this month for Max users, but this is relatively mindblowing (for 3D industry news). I hope Autodesk guts Maya for all its worth.

spirit_of_stars
10-04-2005, 07:06 PM
Ok...

When I said 80% It's for all 3D purpose... Don't ask me were I have find this statistic... I don't remember.

I know, 3DS Max is mostly use in game but it is use every where. 3DS Max is certainly the most hacked. Just compare the ratio of picture made with Max on a plublic forum... (3DSMax and vray, 3DSAMax and MentalRay, 3DSMax and blabla...)

I see a lot of buisness switching to max or use it to complete there tool box.

Personnally I work with XSI, Lightwave and 3DS Max. I switch betwen them..

My heart is dedicated to Lightwave but I really like 3DS Max.

I hope a day the east part of Canada will discover LightWave. For the moment people split on it... ;o(

I apologize for my bad english....

KillMe
10-04-2005, 08:11 PM
seems motionbuilder changes ownership faster than hmm insert some witty thing in here if you can think of one - so what next whos gonna buy autodesk? i say microsoft =) they love monoplys and autodesk starting to get that way now so prime buy for them

cresshead
10-04-2005, 08:17 PM
this does fit into autodesk's vision of getting into all sectors of 3d being the main player in their too...maya was/is the king of the hill for film fx so makes sense to own it..also maya was taking away % of games houses from max so that sorts that out!....

i'm feeling okay about it...a little nervous yeah but not as nervous as many a maya owner i think! [i have max and lw btw...]

interesting times!

:)

Kuzey
10-04-2005, 08:38 PM
"Noticed that the aquisition was for $182 Million in Cash."

That seems way too cheap, considering all the hype about Maya and such.

Kuzey

Fausto
10-04-2005, 08:46 PM
All I know is that the bigger a company gets, the less they're likely to focus on their individual customers and focus more on their bigger clients. Which is bad news for the individual users I think.

And yeah, I think that price is (one of) Max's weak points. They're about the only mid to high end 3D app that did not drop their prices to jive with the market. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised to see them lose some of their hobbyist/freelance base, especially when there are comparable apps out there for less money (i.e. Lightwave, Cinema4D, etc...)

Personally I can't see how Alias are going to get any worse at customer service, they're the worst I've ever experienced. In my opinion, they can only improve.

Wade
10-04-2005, 08:55 PM
So maybe the sold out because they know when :lwicon: 9 hits the street that 182,000,000.00 would be a bit over priced. ?

cresshead
10-04-2005, 09:12 PM
maya owners should be pretty happy... :)
they'll have a huge corp with VERY deep pockets bankrolling them...
and 'maya subscription' if it's the same as 3dsmax subs will mean cheaper ownership of the latest version compared to what alias charge their customers currently.

and the price is about right for the company...if i remember rightly alias was bought for 70mill when sgi sold it....

who's next?
xsi buying cinema?

i'd also hazzard a guess that autodesk may try and buy pixol logic soon too.
say around xmas time! :i_agree:

Cman
10-04-2005, 09:14 PM
"Noticed that the aquisition was for $182 Million in Cash."

That seems way too cheap, considering all the hype about Maya and such.

Kuzey

yeah, that sure sounds low - but maybe not. Remember all their restructuring a little while back to cut costs - well maybe they cut it too low.

Fraust
10-04-2005, 10:10 PM
well... talk about trying to take some steam from the impending 8.5 release.... Autodesk seems serious and they have deep pockets.... I wonder where this will go.... everybody put the torches away! no talking about the demise of LW so soon again! I hope lw9 is on target

I wonder how many people will switch over to Lightwave to get away from Autodesk... the Maya users sound pretty pissed

Sande
10-05-2005, 12:07 AM
Like someone said in CGTalk - This is a bit like Sep 11 on the CG-industry...

I'm curious to see how long Autodesk will keep both products and when there will be only 3D Studio Maya, Mayax, or whatever. I think it will happen, only question is when...

It is also interesting to see how long Newtek keeps going solo - and when we see Adobe Lightwave or something similar... :question:

Now this would be a good time for Newtek to release 8.5 (and 9 very soon after) and let the industry know you are still here, going strong and being innovative... :)

dballesg
10-05-2005, 12:35 AM
Hey, I am going to register that Mayax name I said on my first post! :) After that Autodesk will have to pay me to use it! :devil:

I think are news that worry a few to ALL 3D users. One example it is the internationalization that Autodesk show with many of their apps. I mean they exist on several languages. For example MAX it is in spanish (my native country is spain) and other languages.

And in the faq provided by someone on a prior post, they state that Alias apps will benefit of this. Inteligent movement from their side.

I saw many users and students (I've been a Lightwave teacher before) complaining about the lack of translation in LightWave for manuals and interface as Max have.

I must agree, that not many people understand or speak well english beign from other country. And that it is a few people that Lightwave or any app only in one language lost as customers.

Aside the lack of publishing of Spanish material about LW. And I am not counting the horrible translations from Anaya (a spanish book publisher). Those are really bad adaptations of the manuals and quite incomplete.

I hope newtek take note in that area, and start thinking on internationalize their app.

And other side effect it is going to be the price, remeber how Alias and XSI dropped prices when LightWave did. But Max stayed over al them, beign pricie.

Well at least with the aquisition, Max users can say now that their company of choice products are beign used in movies :devil: they can“t do that before :tongue:

And look on how many technologies at this moment existing only in Maya, are going to be revamped for MAX.

Those are serious news, because we are going to have the Microsoft of the 3D on the horizont, and that it is not good, cuts off the competitivity on the 3D app develoment market.

Cheers, David.

Ade
10-05-2005, 12:42 AM
I wonder how this would affect Pixar?
I always thought if anyone bought maya out it would be Apple?

mav3rick
10-05-2005, 12:50 AM
hopefully we will not see single app on market one day called enlightmaxedmaya.xsi

Sande
10-05-2005, 01:00 AM
hopefully we will not see single app on market one day called enlightmaxedmaya.xsi

Don't worry, we don't have to - I'm sure some companies will also experience "natural death" when only the strongest and fittest survive... ;)

Puguglybonehead
10-05-2005, 02:19 AM
Well I just wonder if AutoDesk are going to shut down the Alias office in Toronto. I used to deliver there all the time when I was a bicycle courier in that city.Very nice folks there, I just don't like using their application. ;)

gatz
10-05-2005, 02:29 AM
I suspect it's the end for Maya on the Mac. Autodesk has has stated rather emphatically that Max would never run on the Mac. They have, what? one Mac app, Media Cleaner, and that was purchased from Terran, updated once (if you don't count the hundred dollar splash screen after it changed hands) and left to rot. Is Combustion still alive? Its at least a version behind.

Autodesk's questionable commitment to the Mac, Alias' preference for node locking Maya (you are dependent on the company if you want to move your software to a new machine) and the MacTel transition looming on the horizon would make me nervous as heck if I owned the basic setup, never mind the "unlimited" package and a couple of plugins.

Newtek can benefit from this. Especially if 8.5 and 9 kill bugs and offers performance gains.

colkai
10-05-2005, 02:31 AM
Have to say it - I love Lightwave! - Gawd only knows the impact this will have on the 3D community. Thank the gods for Newtek. :I_Love_Ne

doimus
10-05-2005, 04:11 AM
I couldn't be happier that I'm using Lightwave right now... considering Autodesk licencing/upgrading policy, this is the beginning of the feudal age for most 3D users. Not for NT users, though! :lightwave

Captain Obvious
10-05-2005, 04:22 AM
Well, what can you do except congratulate Newtek, Maxon and Luxology? Congratulations, the Mac market is yours!

Still, it's not entirely impossible they keep developing the Mac version.

ColinCohen
10-05-2005, 05:28 AM
"Noticed that the aquisition was for $182 Million in Cash."

That seems way too cheap, considering all the hype about Maya and such.

Kuzey

If I'm not mistaken, Alias was bought from SGI just a few years ago for a little over $50 million. So, that's a pretty nice turnover.

ibanezhead
10-05-2005, 05:30 AM
Personally I think this is exciting. Change is good. It could mean a stall in sales, though, for many users of any app. People may not want to lay down huge sums of money before they know what might be ahead.

I see the creation of a totally new autodesk app in the next few years. New name, new interface, new tools... The future for other programs like lw, modo, etc will be determined by their own innovation and any new app's price. Really, anything could happen, and it will be fun to see it play out. Whether Newtek lives or dies, I'll still be spending tons of cash on software sold by somebody...

operation
10-05-2005, 05:49 AM
I hope that all Alias people will keep their jobs.

But it's scary to imagine a MayaMAX product.( don't forget Kaydara is a propriety of Alias too) 8~
It hurts !


Maybe Avid, Newtek, Maxon, Luxology are going to take advantage of this deal ?
:hey: :neener:

mav3rick
10-05-2005, 06:27 AM
ok chuck SPEAKOUT :) did u have secret dinner with autodesk ppl in black?

3DBob
10-05-2005, 06:47 AM
Well this just shows capitalisms worst effects. What I don't get is how every other industry is prevented from being monopolised (at least here in the UK) except the software industry. Remember the stagnation of IE after it attained monopoly - M$ has only just now been encouraged to update it following the breakthrough of 10% barrier in firefox useage.

Also, I know it is a demand thing, but it seams so wrong that Super complex and progammer rich Alias is worth US$182m whilst Skype is worth US$2.6bn + future US$bns in bonuses.

For me this should be a call to action for the innovative independants out there.

What is certain is that some people see their life ebbing away and see a big fat paycheck and grab it - And others (notibly Steve Worley and Tim Jenison) have a loyalty come what may to their userbase, as their userbase has to them.

Now a worst case scenario may be that Pixologic gets bought buy Autodestruct and assimilated.

Assimilation takes a long time - It took many years for AD to assimilate a poor implimentation of Lightscapes GI - but they IMMIDIATELY ceased support for LW and specifically LWO2 format - this is where there could be issues. Lots of people switch between tools in their workflow and AD could make this difficult, as they have previously shown form to.

I think they will ultimately cease mac support, they are PC through and through and appear to take the attitude of join us or forget us. I believe mac users who stick with them will eventually be dissapointed.

On the plus side this creates opportunities for Newtek. I think there will be a number of key programmers that will be open to moving to another independant house, so some headhunting should be undertaken by Newtek. Not cast offs - but cream.

I also think there are a number of indepedants out there that should look at working closely together to provide an alternative solutions house. This need not be done in an obvious way through merger but by better import/export functionality. My solutions house would be:-

Newtek + maybe Maxon (core 3D)
Pixologic (ideally) or Nevercenter ( Sculpting/painting)
Rhino3D - Nurbs/Industrial design
Eon - Terrain

With the exception of Rhino, all of these tools are PC/MAC and most are to the best of my knowledge independant.

NT will have the advantage of the VT - but could do with HD version before 3rd Q 2006.

Also now with the release of ARMs A8 processor, 70%+ of future mobile phones will be 3D capable - with 2bn phones in the world this is a collosal market to be tapped - and NT could steal a march.

my 2c

3DBob

mattclary
10-05-2005, 06:48 AM
[QUOTE=spirit_of_stars]. . . But 3DS Max have 80% of the market . . . [QUOTE]

???

That's if you include pirated copies. ;) Max is the most pirated software on the planet, I think.

AbnRanger
10-05-2005, 06:58 AM
It is also interesting to see how long Newtek keeps going solo - and when we see Adobe Lightwave or something similar... :question:

this would be a good time for Newtek to release 8.5 (and 9 very soon after) and let the industry know you are still here, going strong and being innovative...
I agree...perhaps now it's Adobe's turn to become Newtek's Sugar Daddy. Since they (Adobe) have such a HUGE footprint already within college campuses, it would allow Lightwave a means to vastly increase their number of training facilities (and subsequent user base). I think it would be a win-win situation for both if they created a "Visual Effects Collection" or just implement Lighwave into their popular Video Collection. You'd have an instant, "off-the-shelf" pipeline in a package (downright affordable one at that)....consisting of Lightwave, Photoshop CS, After Effects Professional, Premiere Pro, Audition, & Encore DVD. Think about it...studios would have an entire production pipeline for a good deal less than 3ds Max ($3500), and Maya & XSI at $7000
However, after recently acquiring Macromedia, buying another company might not be a good move right now.

As far as the Autodesk/Alias transaction...it certainly allows Autodesk to have a virtual chokehold on College Campuses, and now the film and game markets as well....not to even mention the pre-viz arena. I just wonder what they are going to do with 2 high-level character rigging/animation programs like Character Studio and Motion Builder. Will they end up selling one?
It's hard to imagine Autodesk maintaining 2 3D packages that are so different, yet so close in their capabilities and targeted market

Z_Render_8
10-05-2005, 06:59 AM
It is also interesting to see how long Newtek keeps going solo - and when we see Adobe Lightwave or something similar... :question:



Yeah, I was thinking of the same thing. :stumped:

AbnRanger
10-05-2005, 07:04 AM
Hey, I am going to register that Mayax name I said on my first post! :) After that Autodesk will have to pay me to use it! :devil:
Naaah... they aren't about to name it that. Think of it...Lightwave,XSI, and Cinema 4D users will always be able retort, "Autodesk can kiss.. Mayax!" :D

Red_Oddity
10-05-2005, 07:21 AM
I agree...now it's Adobe's turn to become Newtek's Sugar Daddy. Since they (Adobe)have such a huge footprint already within college campuses, it would be a win-win situation if they created a "Visual Effects Collection" or just implement Lighwave into their popular Video Collection. You'd have an instant pipeline in one package ....consisting of Lighwave, Photoshop CS, After Effects, Premiere Pro, Audition, & Encore DVD.

Please, heaven forbids...I would jump ship the same day

MooseDog
10-05-2005, 07:41 AM
And others (notibly Steve Worley and Tim Jenison) have a loyalty come what may to their userbase, as their userbase has to them.

to me this very fact will seperate and enhance lw's position in many different markets. it's my guess that nt is s#%t-happy with this transaction ( if only from the point of view that small, nimble and dedicated always triumphs over bloated and bueraucratic).

lw9 will be released in the next six months sometime, and i predict a tremendous response from the press and from buyers, mostly in terms of innovation, dedication and committment to the artist.

Captain Obvious
10-05-2005, 07:51 AM
That's if you include pirated copies. ;) Max is the most pirated software on the planet, I think.
Autodesk/Discreet did an Adobe. By more or less encouraging piracy (or at least not enforcing anything very stricktly), a lot of people started using it. Do you really think Photoshop would be so dominant if it wasn't for the fact that everyone and their grandmother pirated it and learned to use it?



Also now with the release of ARMs A8 processor, 70%+ of future mobile phones will be 3D capable - with 2bn phones in the world this is a collosal market to be tapped - and NT could steal a march.
Eh? How would you do 3D work on a cell phone, regardless of its computational power? 3D graphics, sure, but 3D work? Nah. Not until we get holographics or something.


As for "Adobe Lightwave," let me ask you this... When was the last time Adobe actually was innovative? Six or seven years ago? They only do enough to Photoshop to perpetuate their monopoly. "Adobe Photoshop CS2," what's up with that? "Adobe Photoshop 8" was already taken? They were a great graphics company, controlled by computer graphics nerds. Now they're a great money-making company, controlled by a business nerd. I'd hate to see NewTek go down that road.

CB_3D
10-05-2005, 07:57 AM
Expect to see some Maya technolgy running in Max as Modifiers and Plugins soon.

Bad times, mainly for Maya users, is uppose. And for once i am happy not to have chosen the maya route.

mattclary
10-05-2005, 08:06 AM
Long live (privately owned) Newtek!! :I_Love_Ne

spirit_of_stars
10-05-2005, 08:06 AM
News | Autodesk Acquires Alias - 3ds Maya?


Just got off the media "press" conference call. Some notes:
* timeline: 4 to 6 months until the deal closes
* Alias President and CEO, Doug Walker, will stay on in a transitionary roll, but expects to "leave Alias" some time after the aqcuision is finaled.
* the deal was for the aquision of Alias (Maya, StudioTools, etc.) for $186 million "cash"
* Alias made $86 million in revenues last year
* Alias currently has 600 employees in different locations (so.cal and toronto)
* The two companies will remain independant until the deal closes
* The deal does not impact any current product plans or release schedules
* Initial plans sound like the intention is to maintian Max and Maya as products and to focus development on inter-operability between the two (Workflow, pipeline, PLEASE!)
* audio of the press conference will be available at www.autodesk.com/press
* Alias personell and products will be integrated into the "proper" ADSK business divisions, with entertainment products falling under Autodeask Media and Entertainment division (montreal?), and design applications being moved to the ADSK design tools division (san francisco?)
* Rebranding? Alias has a "premier" name and ADSK plans to use that name "in any way possible" -- the Discreet name is currently tied to AME systems tools. No mention of changes/branding with regards to 3ds Max. No commitments to any final names

Autodesk's main acquisition info portal -- ooh! a powerpoint!
FAQ (see note on this here)
Investors Press Conference Webcast
links will be added as things become available.
[ more... ]

Signal to Noise
10-05-2005, 08:07 AM
. . . But 3DS Max have 80% of the market . . .
???


:stumped: 80% of WHAT market? Not TV and movies. Videogames maybe.

The Kazaa market. ;)

3DBob
10-05-2005, 08:41 AM
Hi Captain Obvious,

Of course I didn't mean application on a mobile - I would have thought that obvious. What I meant was real time 3Dcontent on a mobile - and that would need exporting tools to be developed for LW.

3DBob

Captain Obvious
10-05-2005, 08:54 AM
Long live (privately owned) Newtek!! :I_Love_Ne
That "a privately held developer of 3D graphics technology" bothered me. As opposed to what, exactly? The People's Democratic Republic of Someplace's Bureau of Computer Graphics, 3D Technologies Department?




Of course I didn't mean application on a mobile - I would have thought that obvious. What I meant was real time 3Dcontent on a mobile - and that would need exporting tools to be developed for LW.
Ahhh. Well, I don't think the market is that big. Honestly, what do you need 3D content on a cell phone for anyway? Games, sure, but you might as well just say "darnit, give us better game tools" or something such.

3DBob
10-05-2005, 09:08 AM
Captain Obvious - 3D realtime content can take meny forms. And the opposite of privately owned is Publicly owned (buy shareholders) - get enough shares, and the company is yours - terms such as "hostile takeover" may mean something.

The only way you can take over a private firm is by an owner agreed sale, or by crushing them through leveraging a monopoly. If the private firm develops kick-***** indespensable intellectual property, before the latter occurs - it doesn't matter how big the big fish is, the independant will be secure and may prevail.

3DBob

Bog
10-05-2005, 09:36 AM
Meh.

It's a shame that there's one less entity to compete in the marketplace, as competition does drive innovation in leading-edge technology markets, which Desktop 3D has been a major force in for years.

I think it's a bit early for Chicken Little stuff. Bad day for innovation, maybe - good day for AutoCrat ... uh... AutoDesk's shareholders.

Ho hum. Yay, as stated, for privately owned NewTek, and that warm safe feeling that I'm not gonna get turfed out anytime soon.

As long as AutoEro... *kofff* AutoDesk don't start getting all unpleasant and leaning on studios to exclusively use their products in return for "favourable" licence and support agreements, I don't think this'll immediately impact us 'Wavers.

mav3rick
10-05-2005, 09:42 AM
mmmmmmm... adobe lw sounds good for me... they got money and they didnt have 3d background ... so they'll not close lw develop like macromedia freehand....

Sande
10-05-2005, 09:51 AM
As for "Adobe Lightwave," let me ask you this... When was the last time Adobe actually was innovative? Six or seven years ago? They only do enough to Photoshop to perpetuate their monopoly. "Adobe Photoshop CS2," what's up with that? "Adobe Photoshop 8" was already taken? They were a great graphics company, controlled by computer graphics nerds. Now they're a great money-making company, controlled by a business nerd. I'd hate to see NewTek go down that road.

Adobe was just a first thought that came to my mind but even if there would be better partners for Newtek I really don't believe Adobe would be a bad choice...

Regardless of their recent innovations (or lack of them) they have the best (my personal opinion, yours may vary) product on market which keeps getting better. That is the very reason they have that monopoly, piracy has nothing to do with that. You can get illegal copies of Paint Shop Pro (or any other package) just as easily, Gimp is even free.
Even if the development seems slow, the competition is still behind...

Many of us (and the users of other 3D-software) already use Photoshop with Lightwave, and better integration would be welcome. Not to mention integration with their other software (After Effects and Illustrator for example). That could even bring new customers from other packages to Lightwave.

They have the money (I guess they have some left, even after Macromedia). Do you really think that they would order Newtek's current (very promising) development team to slow down the progress? I don't think so. More likely the current development team would have more resources and could be (even) more innovative than now.

Well, maybe I'm just too optimistic, but I'm pretty sure there are many options to choose from which are worse... ;)

EDIT: Just wanted to add that a newest Game Developer Magazine issue is focused on mobile games if you are interested...

mattclary
10-05-2005, 10:47 AM
That "a privately held developer of 3D graphics technology" bothered me. As opposed to what, exactly?

A publicly traded company, i.e. something you can find on the stock exchange. Newtek and Alias are privately owned. The benefit is, you don't do stupid sh*t trying to impress stock holders or increase stock value, you make money the old fashioned way by making a product people want to buy.

Captain Obvious
10-05-2005, 10:51 AM
Captain Obvious - 3D realtime content can take meny forms. And the opposite of privately owned is Publicly owned (buy shareholders) - get enough shares, and the company is yours - terms such as "hostile takeover" may mean something.

The only way you can take over a private firm is by an owner agreed sale, or by crushing them through leveraging a monopoly. If the private firm develops kick-***** indespensable intellectual property, before the latter occurs - it doesn't matter how big the big fish is, the independant will be secure and may prevail.

3DBob
Ahhhh. Still, you must admit that my option sounded cooler! ;)

badllarma
10-05-2005, 11:11 AM
I'm with you on that Matt private is good! I think every one forgets here Newtek have a **** of a history compaired to some of the other 3D software developers.

There are so many benfits for staying private and not jumping into bed with any one and I think this is not what Lightwave has ever been about anyway, Lightwave and VT were created to allow the average guy to produce the best work without the price tag.
An of course we all know it works :thumbsup:

I hope they, the competition does stop making software for Mac as it is just another plus point for Lightwave of course.
While these companies are merging running two products in the same line laying staff off (come on it just has to happen). etc etc etc.. Newtek is pushing the developemnt of Lightwave making it a stronger and stronger product.

It will not take long (maybe with the release of 9) for some of the largest production houses in the business to maybe suddenly glance over there shoulders and see Lightwave come flying past and think hummmm may be another look at that. (Even though most of them are using it on and off but just don't mention it that often) with all the noise the likes of Maya makes at every movie release and Max with the games industry.

So let the other get on with it and we can just carry on producing great work in Lightwave :agree:

colkai
10-05-2005, 11:17 AM
you make money the old fashioned way by making a product people want to buy.
Awww, now come on, who'd be daft enough to do that? :p ;)

Chris S. (Fez)
10-05-2005, 12:24 PM
Personally, I am impressed even if I am not an AME stockholder.

I think AME buying out Alias will benefit Max folks like myself. There are some pretty nifty patents that will now almost certainly make their way into Max in some form or another. Paint Effects, a sweet set of NURBS tools, IPR, Toonrendering, Hair, Fur, Dynamics, Particles etc. etc. etc.

anieves
10-05-2005, 12:25 PM
mmmmmmm... adobe lw sounds good for me... they got money and they didnt have 3d background ... so they'll not close lw develop like macromedia freehand....

you say that until adobe decides that LW's timeline is no good and replaces it with After Effects timeline because you know, more ppl use After Effects...

BTW adobe did have a 3d app a long time ago and failed miserably... "Adobe Dimensions"

all hail the small business owner!

hrgiger
10-05-2005, 12:42 PM
I think that this merger will be good for Lightwave at least in the short term. Right now, I wouldn't want to be a Maya owner just for the uncertainty of what is going to become of Maya, both in features and in pricing. From the absurdly long thread over at CGtalk, I don't think a lot of Maya users are happy about it either. Perhaps Newtek will get some new or returning customers from that group.
Also, correct me if I'm wrong but Max is still going for $3500. It's not even on the same level of Lightwave in that regard. This isn't a threat to Newtek/Lightwave. You will always have a very large group where price/value is a big issue when buying software and Ligtwave fills that niche nicely.
Now that Lightwave is being updated to fill some of it's major flaws (OpenGL/hardware shading, edges, ngons, faster rendering, etc...), when you look at the price, you would be crazy not to at least look over the software and see if it could meet your production needs at a fraction of the cost of Max (or any other elitest....er, I mean higher priced software). :lwicon:

KillMe
10-05-2005, 12:51 PM
i dont really see this affecting newtek much at all - though perhaps long term maya/max will be mroe competition since autodesk now has a huge programming and research staff and the money to fund new and wacky tech - though i wouldn't be surprised if they downsize and simply use 1 set of developers

probally a good time to be a max user - maya users well who knows could go either way - but what ever happens i'm happy with lightwave so unless the release something thats a productive to work with as lightwave i'm not about woory and frankly the chances of them doing that in anything but the extreme long term ( note i hate max and i hate maya then chances of liking maya/max ........... well lets jsut say the thought sends a cold shiver down my spine) are remote

tektonik
10-05-2005, 12:56 PM
the good thing about newtek is that it is not publicly traded they don't have to bend for merket pressure to output junk every 4 months or so

in montreal we lost discreet to Autodesk

and here softimage is still surviving tho it is in US hands (avid)

toronto just lost maya and yes autodesk will gut it and then blow it into a fat pig of an application

....

Chris S. (Fez)
10-05-2005, 01:04 PM
"Also, correct me if I'm wrong but Max is still going for $3500."

Street price of Max is around 2500 dollars. You just have to haggle.

I personally think it is pretty good value. The 2500 dollars up front is a killer but if you stay up to date on subscription you pay 440 dollars yearly and receive ALL feature upgrades. Much more reasonable than Maya Unlimited or XSI Advanced (these "Highend" versions are granted exclusive features like Hair, Fur, 64 bit support etc).

"It's not even on the same level of Lightwave in that regard. This isn't a threat to Newtek/Lightwave. You will always have a very large group where price/value is a big issue when buying software and Ligtwave fills that niche nicely."

I agree. Especially, with Lightwave's new pricing scheme. 3 seats of Lightwave for every one seat of MAX.

If Newtek actually succeeds in releasing a stable and FAST Lightwave 9 before the end of the year, I think they will be in a great position to capitalize on all the industry confusion this Max/Maya merger has created.

lardbros
10-05-2005, 01:05 PM
I too don't think it will directly affect Newtek or Lightwave at all. Obviously some change within the 3d industry is bound to happen, but in my opinion Autodesk will just make Maya and MAX talk to each other perfectly. Model in Maya, and then rig on Maya and then open everything back in MAX and render using Brazil or Mental Ray and the scene files and models will be the same. Lets just hope that scene and object file types can't be copyrighted in the sense that autodesk can stop other companies utilising them at all. This would be an odd move to make, but if Maya and MAX wanted to stop people even thinking of using other software to model with, this would be a possibility. Although, it's just not really fair business. Like when Atari or was it Sega tried to copyright side-scrolling video-games. They didn't pull it off for obvious reasons.

Sorry, my mind is running wild with different things that could happen. Most likely MAX and Maya will continue along and merge within a few years.

cresshead
10-05-2005, 03:54 PM
regarding autodesk not wanting to create for anything but windows...err combustion is on max osx and there's a huge sway of apps that only run on linux and sgi os........go have a look at their products!

re open gl....microsoft want to kill open gl as it doesn't fit into their security needs for next versions of windows..this is according to the europe ati man i was talking to at the 3dsmax 8.0 roadshow today...that's why ati has the best viewport display for max when using direct x 9.0 with their shaders etc..so lightwave and it's immentent open gl 2.0 tweeks may onlybe around for video cards on windows till microsft end open gl and only emulate it!...newtek need direct x 9.0 in lightwave9.0...go on with the dev please!

in some more news that's render related..at the max roadshow they announced [they finalised it only last week] that max8.0 will have UNLIMITED render nodes for MENTAL RAY 3.4 and this ships in 2 weeks........

now go and have a look at xsi's site and you see that xsi has a maximum of only 12 render nodes for the fully spammed up xsi advance for over $6000!

so autodesk has one over with xsi as well....they're really pushing!

along with the new features in max 8.0 like pelt mapping i don't see max being dumped anytime soon...same with maya..and talking to the europe product manager today [nick manning] we wont's see anyhting for 6 months at all and then really only see/hear real signs at nab nxt year or more likley siggraph in 2006.........

i see the main losersin this could well be xsi and not maya or max....

it wouldn't surprise me to hear that autodesk now owns mental ray in a few weeks time...where would that leave xsi?.....no renderer..... :thumbsdow

mav3rick
10-05-2005, 04:00 PM
i fi have to choose from all evil people around i will choose adobe.....
and... eaven if after effect is my 1st choice i think theyr timeline can be improved too...

Bog
10-05-2005, 04:23 PM
*glare*

NewTek, the company of the half-dozen free updates when things aren't working right, or they're just feeling generous merged with Adobe, the sluggard leviathan of zero innovation, cruft, bletch and "Oh, we *might* fix this bug if you give us £200 for the new version, but it might still not work?"

Do, please, forget it. If Adobe bought NewTek... I would consider that to be 33% of my life wasted. Not from here on in, but post-dated to 1993. I really would. Innovation would cease. Tools for the power-user would evapourate. Does nobody here realise that Adobe are to visual tools what Microsoft are to operating systems? I'm not talking about hate-riddled invective, I'm merely talking about Marketshare for the Least Common Denomenator.

LightWave is what it is because it is immediately accessable to the newbie, but has tonnes of power in her heart that the power-user can touch with four keystrokes. For the love of Gh0d, you lot!

3D is NOT a Solved Solution like Photoshop! It's not Incremental Uprgradeware like After Effects! We ARE the Leading Edge, where Art hits Science in the synchrotron collider of the studio! We're working artists and reasearchers both, we are Artist and we are Scientist and are Mathemagician. This isn't an "Evolving Finished Product", we are explorers on the churning, boiling frontier of the interface between Dream and Science, between Math and Magic.

*sighs*

Adobe ship product.

NewTek probe the frontier.

There can be no happy union between those, because I do not beleive George Lucas' statement that 3D is a Done Deal, and that all there is to do is Bells and Whistles.

Look to your hearts, you curmudgeons. Are you ready to declare the whole 'Verse already explored and mapped? Are you ready to say that all there is to be learned has been learned? Are you done learning?

If so... I wish you well. But I've got a big, wide, fascinating horizon out there that I haven't frelling touched yet. And I plan to grab it with both hands. So far, it looks like NewTek's still willing to help me down that path. I'm perfectly happy with the command crew of this particular ship, and shan't jump it anytime soon. Unless some numptie with interest in only buying Porsches for his shareholders buys it.

In which case... it's been a blast, and I still love you.

Selah.

Lightwolf
10-05-2005, 04:56 PM
regarding autodesk not wanting to create for anything but windows...err combustion is on max osx and there's a huge sway of apps that only run on linux and sgi os........go have a look at their products!
Combustion 3 is the latest release available for OSX, while compustion 4 is PC only... That doesn't look promising. And their new kid on the block toxic is not available for OSX either. So the only current products left by autodesk for OSX are the ones from Alias. I doubt that they'll kill the Maya ports though.


re open gl....microsoft want to kill open gl as it doesn't fit into their security needs for next versions of windows..this is according to the europe ati man i was talking to at the 3dsmax 8.0 roadshow today...that's why ati has the best viewport display for max when using direct x 9.0 with their shaders etc..so lightwave and it's immentent open gl 2.0 tweeks may onlybe around for video cards on windows till microsft end open gl and only emulate it!...newtek need direct x 9.0 in lightwave9.0...go on with the dev please!

That has been discussed before. openGL 2.0 is up to the hardware vendors (and looking at ATIs **** openGL support I can see where their Rep is coming from ;) ). You will loose the Areo desktop and might not be able to play back hi-def DRM protected video while running an openGL 2.0 app, but that's about it as long as the hardware vendor supplies decent drivers.
The copy protection is _only_ concerning video ... and that is a whole different ballpark ... and nothing pretty to look at. Apparently MS is only including this because of Hollywood, future HD players, or basically anything that play back HD DVD/Blueray will be affected the same way as far as security is concerned. ...and if you think DRM for audio is restrictive...


in some more news that's render related..at the max roadshow they announced [they finalised it only last week] that max8.0 will have UNLIMITED render nodes for MENTAL RAY 3.4 and this ships in 2 weeks........

Now that would be a killer argument for MAx for some people... I assume those will be limited mr licenses that only render max generated files and not generic mr files.


i see the main losersin this could well be xsi and not maya or max....

That I doubt... autodesk/discreet have annoyed (i.e. p***ed off) too many people in the past ;)


it wouldn't surprise me to hear that autodesk now owns mental ray in a few weeks time...where would that leave xsi?.....no renderer..... :thumbsdow
As somebody else mentioned they surely have a solid contract with mental images that would at least covery everything up to 4.0 or so ... and currently there are plenty or rendering options on the market. It would hurt, but it wouldn't kill them.
I also think that mental images is probably harder to buy than Alias since it is privately held and very likely to be a "labour of love" company like NT. (Which is why I don't see LW being sold off to anybody either). The terms to agree upon would not only concern money (as with Alias) but a lot more...

Cheers,
Mike

Scott_Blinn
10-05-2005, 05:10 PM
Adobe was just a first thought that came to my mind but even if there would be better partners for Newtek I really don't believe Adobe would be a bad choice...


Would be interesting.

I think that a merger between Lightwave and Softimage would be a good move to "shore up" against the Maya/Max future powerhouse. Softimage is also working hard to break into game development more and NewTek could really leverage that.

Kuzey
10-05-2005, 06:53 PM
If they do kill the Mac version of Maya, hopefully Newtek will be there to catch some of the coders...you can never have too many :)

Kuzey

anieves
10-05-2005, 08:34 PM
you know what would be a good merger? If Burger King bought out Wendy's!then there would be a super ultra mega burger that could eliminate the powerhouse that is McDonald's.

SplineGod
10-05-2005, 09:33 PM
The VAST majority of Autodesks income is from AutoCAD and related products.
They brought in 1.3 BILLION from their products and I dont think Max factors in very much in all that. Discreet was downsizing bigtime and so was Alias which was sold how many times over the past year or so? The teachers union in canada was the last to own them. Alias brought in a total of 83 million from ALL their products. Autodesk bought Alias with what amounts to pocket change. I dont think Maya was primarily what they were interested in but the CAD and design products Alias has. What Max and Maya bring in is a drop in the bucket compared to the CAD market which is Autodesks real cash cow.
When Maya and Max were owned by separate companies there stood a greater chance of seeing price drops. I dont think youll see that now. I dont think Autodesk will put much money (relatively speaking) into 2 apps that do essentially the same thing. I expect them to either roll maya into max or sell maya off. It doesnt make sense to pay two different dev teams to compete with themselves.
As far as Newtek goes I dont think this will make much of a difference. It doesnt change the fact that they will always need to be innovative and deliver a great product at a great price. I dont expect that this will change much in the short term. :)

BeeVee
10-06-2005, 02:00 AM
*glare*

3D is NOT a Solved Solution like Photoshop! It's not Incremental Uprgradeware like After Effects! We ARE the Leading Edge, where Art hits Science in the synchrotron collider of the studio! We're working artists and reasearchers both, we are Artist and we are Scientist and are Mathemagician. This isn't an "Evolving Finished Product", we are explorers on the churning, boiling frontier of the interface between Dream and Science, between Math and Magic.

Look to your hearts, you curmudgeons. Are you ready to declare the whole 'Verse already explored and mapped? Are you ready to say that all there is to be learned has been learned? Are you done learning?

If so... I wish you well. But I've got a big, wide, fascinating horizon out there that I haven't frelling touched yet. And I plan to grab it with both hands. So far, it looks like NewTek's still willing to help me down that path. I'm perfectly happy with the command crew of this particular ship, and shan't jump it anytime soon. Unless some numptie with interest in only buying Porsches for his shareholders buys it.

In which case... it's been a blast, and I still love you.

Selah.

<Lots of snippage went on> Wow! You sure speak purty for a guy from Reading... ;)

B

Bog
10-06-2005, 02:45 AM
Wow! You sure speak purty for a guy from Reading...

I got all passionate and stuff. I blame long hours and cold beer ;)

colkai
10-06-2005, 02:55 AM
You sure you weren't a poet in a former life? ;)
Can see you now, sitting on a stool in black polo neck jumper and shades, is some bar in a forgotten corner of town, reciting "3D Artists - the juxtaposition" :p ;)

lardbros
10-06-2005, 03:43 AM
Bog, that was a great speech. If only George Bush had you as his speech writer rather than having his dog (which is probably dead) write them.

Nemoid
10-06-2005, 04:28 AM
Newtek should go ahead with their cool work, and after the great 9.0 release keep on working on Lw making it even more modern, efficient and solid. in a few words : fully integrated and streamlined. :thumbsup:

Maybe also some Alias fugitive will land in Nt team to join them.

Newtek just have to think with artist in mind, and this could become a great positive period for Lw,if well exploited as it is a cheap and complete good 3D app .Don't forget Modo tho.No fear, but it seems it's becoming a great app as well.

Develop, Innovate, Conquer :lwicon:

BeeVee
10-06-2005, 04:31 AM
At the risk of being truly off-topic (and cross-posting from the Jokes thread), I don't think you do:

http://www.badmash.org/videos/videos_flv.php?v=george_bush_512K_Stream

B

Bog
10-06-2005, 05:56 AM
That's brilliant! I'm not as bad as that... am I? :eek:

Sorry, it was just all the "Oh, we're doomed" and "NewTek should join with $company" stuff made me snap, and caused a bit of drool to appear at the corner of my mouth.

Good thing I never got religious, I'd be running a cult by now ;)

hrgiger
10-06-2005, 09:07 AM
At the risk of being truly off-topic (and cross-posting from the Jokes thread), I don't think you do:

http://www.badmash.org/videos/videos_flv.php?v=george_bush_512K_Stream

B

Brilliant.

And believe me, that's the last time you'll ever see me refer to anything about bush being brilliant.

vee
10-06-2005, 09:37 AM
I think we should be prepared for a lot more of this big fish little fish thing. The reality is that the software that these companies are making is being sold to a very small market.

If you do quick and very rough math, $180,000,000 divided by $4000 equals about 45,000 seats of maya being the selling price of the company.

Imagine GM being sold for the price of 45,000 SUV's?

Point is there really aren't that many people using these 3d apps, the competition is fierce, and the market isn't expanding (fact is it takes a person of well above average intellect to even open most of the packages, and thats not your general pc/mac user)

PS, why do some of you bust on Adobe? Can you tell me the last time Photoshop crashed, or the last time you cursed "If only PS could do this"!? Photoshop has to be one of the most utilized and functional programs ever designed, honestly. As far as inovation goes, the only thing I can image PS doing that it doesn't do already is take the darn picture.

Captain Obvious
10-06-2005, 10:26 AM
Can you tell me the last time Photoshop crashed
Yesterday. Despite being available for OS X for several years, they still haven't made it function like a proper OS X application. I wanted to run it on my iBook, so I just copied the application's folder. When Photoshop started, it started looking for plugins at the hard drive I moved it from. This resulted in a crash. I can't start Photoshop on my iBook. I have to install it manually from disk. Information like where to look for plugins should be saved in the application preferences, in either your own Library, or the system-wide Library. Even Lightwave can be moved freely from computer to computer without a complete reinstall! Just bring the dongel and it works! Only problem is that it can't find the content catalogue, but that's easily fixed. It doesn't cause a crash.
</rant>

Bog
10-06-2005, 10:35 AM
PS, why do some of you bust on Adobe?

I could rattle on about instability and busted functionality, then being asked for hundreds of pounds for a point-five upgrade that still doesn't fix the broken functions that should have worked in the first place.

Oh, hold on... just did. ;)

Adobe apps, yeah, all well and OK, I guess, kinda, ish, for the money. I could quietly bankrupt myself keeping everything upgraded all the time, but I've sort of shrugged and accepted that Premiere Pro and so on are broken.

<edit> I just like the way NewTek do business, and would be less happy under Adobe's upgrade policies. And the fact that I can't imagine a discussion like this going on at Adobe's official forum.

ibanezhead
10-06-2005, 10:35 AM
Can you tell me the last time Photoshop crashed

CS crashes on me all the time. Mostly happens when selecting small areas in the alpha. But I still love Photoshop, and your post is right on...

coremi
10-06-2005, 11:05 AM
i have never had a crush with Photoshop, not even with 650 MB files, regarding stability is the best there is.

mattclary
10-06-2005, 11:12 AM
Even Lightwave can be moved freely from computer to computer without a complete reinstall!

LightWave is the exception, not the rule. You are speaking of Macs, so it's not apples to apples (pardon the pun ;) ) but VERY few Windows apps can be utilized by copying them directly. Most are very dependant on the system registry.

Captain Obvious
10-06-2005, 11:13 AM
<edit> I just like the way NewTek do business, and would be less happy under Adobe's upgrade policies. And the fact that I can't imagine a discussion like this going on at Adobe's official forum.
Do they even have public forums? I keep getting the vision of moderators yelling "UNSOLICITED!" no matter what you said, and just delete the thread and ban you. :screwy: Kind of like Blizzard does if you report bugs!

Captain Obvious
10-06-2005, 11:19 AM
LightWave is the exception, not the rule. You are speaking of Macs, so it's not apples to apples (pardon the pun ;) ) but VERY few Windows apps can be utilized by copying them directly. Most are very dependant on the system registry.
Well, I was talking about the Mac version of both Photoshop and Lightwave. My only functional PC at the moment isn't really functioning. Besides, it's running Ubuntu Linux... :p

DogBoy
10-06-2005, 11:34 AM
*removed off-topic rant*

cresshead
10-06-2005, 11:57 AM
topic:-Autodesk buys Alias! :thumbsup:
off topic:- 'abdoby do bloatoslop running on oxo' :thumbsdow

:D

Lightwolf
10-06-2005, 12:00 PM
topic:-Autodesk buys Alias! :thumbsup:
off topic:- 'abdoby do bloatoslop running on oxo' :thumbsdow

:lol: :dance: :hijack:
Cheers,
Mike - back to sign language...

art
10-06-2005, 12:23 PM
I wonder if bookstores will remove all those max and maya books from their shelves at some point in the future (after it is clear what happens to those two applications)

cresshead
10-06-2005, 12:28 PM
after talking to the autodesk product manager at the max 8.0 roadshow on this subject in some depth [nick manning] his view is that we will not see anything different for at least 4-6 months until the deal is done and dusted fully.

then you may see some price/product news around april 2006 and possibly a much larger announcment at next year's siggraph...

currently the thinging is that max, maya complete, maya unlimited and motion builder all have development roadmaps for the next 1-2 years so nothing is slated to change drasticly anytime soon.

with that...no one knew about the alias buy out til yesterday! [late tuesday]
so we may see news much earlier......

also you have to ask why they bought it?

max was the dominant 3d app for the last 9 years outselling all the other apps put together...inc maya, xsi, cinema, trusepce,modo and lightwave...

yet in the last 3 years they were losing there dominant position in the games industry over to maya ever since alias wavefront dropped the price of maya down from £6000 to £1999...that hurt autodesk's image as the dominant force in games and also max never really got a hold in the film market.......which is the eye candy of 3d.....

alias in the meantime gained more commercial users but lost revenue due to their price slashing and that was most evident when they were sold for only $50million to an investement company recently [last year]....sgi did have alias as a cash cow that turned into a low yeld cow once they slashed the price........

so now once again autodesk has the dominant market shre in games...they bought it with pocket change they have...and into the bargin they [autdesk] also is now the dominant force in film which neatly ties into their plan when they disolved the discreet brand name and created the new media division with flame, inferno, toxic and lustre heading the way of best of the bunch for film...they now also have maya which is top 3dapp for film....fills the hole cheaply..much better than trying to get studios to dump maya in favour of MAX......

makes perfect sense for all their board members and share holders

you have to remember this is a business and not just pretty pictures!

a intersting history lesson here maybe that slashing prices doesn't mean that the future will be brighter in the long run and also may increase market share but at what cost?....alias [ maya ] has been sold twice in the last 18 months.....

what of xsi and their huge price slashing?
who will own them in 18 months?....avid?....
not apple for sure as they don't run on osx.
microsoft?....they already were owned by microsoft a long time back so don't think so!....
interesting to see what happens to xsi as well....
any predictions?
maxon may buy xsi???
would really boost maxon's standing in 3d at a stroke.

as for lightwave...well newtek is a private company so they do what they want and not what shareholders demand.........

as for books...well how many softimage books do you see on the shelves?
...none nowdays and only a coule of xsi books....

Stooch
10-06-2005, 12:41 PM
Yesterday. Despite being available for OS X for several years, they still haven't made it function like a proper OS X application. I wanted to run it on my iBook, so I just copied the application's folder. When Photoshop started, it started looking for plugins at the hard drive I moved it from. This resulted in a crash. I can't start Photoshop on my iBook. I have to install it manually from disk. Information like where to look for plugins should be saved in the application preferences, in either your own Library, or the system-wide Library. Even Lightwave can be moved freely from computer to computer without a complete reinstall! Just bring the dongel and it works! Only problem is that it can't find the content catalogue, but that's easily fixed. It doesn't cause a crash.
</rant>
sounds like user error.

a typical mac user...

Captain Obvious
10-06-2005, 12:55 PM
sounds like user error.

a typical mac user...
:confused:
Are you being sarcastic, or are you trying to insult me?


Edit in reply to cresshead's long post:
I agree. It makes perfect sense for Autodesk to buy Alias. However, what I'm interested in is how it effects the 3D graphics market as a whole.

cresshead
10-06-2005, 01:02 PM
topic:-Autodesk buys Alias!
off topic:- 'abdoby do bloatoslop running on oxo'

cresshead
10-06-2005, 01:12 PM
as yet don't really know if it's a good or bad move for the '3d artists' out
there, and i mean all artists be they max, maya, xsi lightwave or cinema4d
for example
if the market leader in film gets shoved about like a unwanted toy for
peanuts in sell-a-thon's that can't be good....
maybe , just maybe this unwanted baby has landed on a kind hearted doorstep
and good old aunt autodesk will take her [maya and alias] in and bring her
up to be a good little girl
and not simply passed onto the next orhanage!

paulrus
10-06-2005, 01:18 PM
any predictions?
maxon may buy xsi???
would really boost maxon's standing in 3d at a stroke.


You're joking, right?

Have you ever been to Avid's offices in MA? They're a huge company. They could buy and sell Maxon 10X over and still have tons of cash in the bank. XSI fits too well into Avid's product line to dump. If anything they'll start pushing their new Maya transition tools even harder to try to snag Maya users who are unhappy with the buyout.

cresshead
10-06-2005, 01:23 PM
a week ago autodesk buying alias would have been a joke...
my prediction is not to joke!... :D

also if you read it right i speculated on maxon buying xsi....NOT avid...

and how big was/is silicon graphics..have you been to there HQ's around the world?...i 've been to their UK hQ in 1999...very impressive...and they sold alias...all of it not just one app called maya.

never say never.......... :question:

cresshead
10-06-2005, 01:34 PM
also note that avid is driven by shareholders and board members..with what they witnessed this week with the two biggest players combining their forces this will put a squeeze on xsi and others which have had to decide that to gain a slice of the pie of 3d left on the table after MAYA and 3DSMAX they cut their price from £1800 down to £350...i bigger cut than maya
and looked what happended to maya.....

yep, it could if handled well be the making of xsi...that's really upto avid and to how maya users and the film industry feel about maya more than xsi...if they feel avid will handle their needs in future film production better, then xsi could get the opportunity it needs...

though you need to remember that colleges teach maya and max not xsi or lightwave on the whole........you need people to run the apps and re train those who have used maya since 1998........ie ILM and pixar for example.

intersting isn't it!

...hey just waiting to see the lightwave 8.5 release arrive ! :lwicon:

ingo
10-06-2005, 01:37 PM
a week ago autodesk buying alias would have been a joke...


Isn't it still a joke, or not ? And isn't Maxon a daughter-company of the CAD software house Nemetschek ? Now when do the Bentley brothers buy Softimage as addition for Microstation ?

So many questions, so little beer.....

Chris S. (Fez)
10-06-2005, 01:39 PM
I am super excited about Lightwave 9.

paulrus
10-06-2005, 01:43 PM
also if you read it right i speculated on maxon buying xsi....NOT avid...



Ah... then this is a useless argument because you need to do more research.

The official title of XSI is "Avid Softimage|XSI" because it's already owned by Avid. Thus the reason I argued that Avid could buy and sell Maxon 10X over.

Stooch
10-06-2005, 03:23 PM
i have never had a crush with Photoshop, not even with 650 MB files, regarding stability is the best there is.

im working with 35,000 pixel images that are 3gigs in size and 13gigs expanded. this is on a pc and i havent crashed yet with all of my 40+ layers and masks and scaling a marquee selection. etc.

swpspce
10-06-2005, 03:42 PM
a week ago autodesk buying alias would have been a joke...
my prediction is not to joke!... :D

also if you read it right i speculated on maxon buying xsi....NOT avid...

and how big was/is silicon graphics..have you been to there HQ's around the world?...i 've been to their UK hQ in 1999...very impressive...and they sold alias...all of it not just one app called maya.

never say never.......... :question:

wasn't SGI in Soho Square? are they still there - we got a lot of good thing from them back in '98...

Lightwolf
10-06-2005, 04:49 PM
You're joking, right?

Have you ever been to Avid's offices in MA? They're a huge company. They could buy and sell Maxon 10X over and still have tons of cash in the bank.
Not quite, since Maxon is in turn owned by Nemetschek, one of the larger CAD companies (no match for autodesk though). They do have more decisive freedom than the Max department though. The ties to the the mother parent are there, but they don't interfere.

Cheers,
Mike - who's had a lengthy talk with a product manager this year

edit: d'oh, I should've known that Ingo would be first on the Nemetschek topic, home turf for us I guess ;)

vee
10-06-2005, 05:16 PM
im working with 35,000 pixel images that are 3gigs in size and 13gigs expanded. this is on a pc and i havent crashed yet with all of my 40+ layers and masks and scaling a marquee selection. etc.

You must be using CS2, couse I have never been able to save a file larger than 2gigs.

(Max and Maya though, no problem with the 2gig images, hope that doesn't change with the buy-out), Sorry creeshead. :)

cresshead
10-06-2005, 05:34 PM
no problemo Vee :thumbsup:

just as long as people don't have to sift thru pages of photoshop chat rather than the title of the thread if you see what i mean :agree:

and yeah Pplop is quite stable...a note that it's only pushing pixels around though so what's to break most of the time?

3d is waaaay more complex and it'self involved calculating pixels as well as xyz co ords and forces such as wind, gravity and ik..no wonder 3d apps are more prone to frezzing/falling over than a pixel filter appsuch as bloato flop :hammer:

cresshead
10-06-2005, 05:42 PM
not one to flame or whatever but on xsi name.....
well my softimage|xsi is called 'softimage|xsi' on the box and all manuals including the tutorial manualseven the cd/dvd discs are softimage|xsi and not
as you state 'Avid Softimage|XSI' :)

still i'm only on version 4.2 so this may have changed with version 5.0 or you maybe talking about version 1,2 or 3.....i only came on board with xsi on version 4.0.........

hey btw, best of luck to xsi carving out a sizable niche of the pie in the 3d arena as it's well priced for the enrty level version and V5.0 may just tempt some maya users to have a look now there's some help in transition to xsi from maya, though maya users will lament on some of what they will leave behind if they go 100% xsi with some of maya's unique tools they own.

vee
10-06-2005, 06:16 PM
http://www.avid.com/company/releases/2005/050926_xsi_soft.html

vee
10-06-2005, 06:39 PM
For what it's worth,

AbnRanger
10-07-2005, 01:20 AM
max was the dominant 3d app for the last 9 years outselling all the other apps put together...inc maya, xsi, cinema, trusepce,modo and lightwave...

yet in the last 3 years they were losing there dominant position in the games industry over to maya ever since alias wavefront dropped the price of maya down from £6000 to £1999...that hurt autodesk's image as the dominant force in games and also max never really got a hold in the film market.......which is the eye candy of 3d.....

alias in the meantime gained more commercial users but lost revenue due to their price slashing and that was most evident when they were sold for only $50million to an investement company recently [last year]....sgi did have alias as a cash cow that turned into a low yeld cow once they slashed the price
With all due respect...What are you talking about? Price slash what? So what if Maya and XSI offer castrated and crippled versions at greatly reduced prices? How does that affect the market?... it's a ploy to sucker folks into eventually buying a few more features for the full $7000 pop? Like luring someone with candy, to stick their head into a guilotine, then.... :eek:

Roundpixel
10-07-2005, 03:31 AM
My humble 2 cents (is opinion in Nasdaq? it could be more than 2 cents today then)

If the whole thing was motivated to get Studio Tools (as it seems) then the 3d parts (MB and Maya) were just added value to the operation (as it also seems).
I think Autodesk won“t keep two competing 3d apps, even when those are not really aimed at the same market, but the fact is that both apps, Max and Maya are really quite similar in features, i won“t say anything on quality.
Now they“re saying they“ll keep the two developing teams and that both apps will go on, something i don“t think it“s a smart business move, so either they“ll drop one of them (after taking the parts they like from the departing one) or they“ll sell it to someone else (after doing the same i said before).
If now they“d say one of the 2 apps is to be dropped, all users from that one will flee to a new app, and so that app will loose value in the market and there will be many difficulties to find someone wanting to buy.
I might be wrong, but i think i know how big companies do business, and AD is no exception to those rules.

There“s a saying in Spain that goes something like this (rough translation, though): When the river goes wild, the fishermen benefit from it.

I can see Newtek in fishing outfit these coming days. :newtek:

JC

digital verve
10-07-2005, 03:50 AM
Looks like Max and Maya will be continued and developed as separate products, but made better at talking to each other. At least for the next 3 years.

http://www.highend3d.com/articles/columns/4.html

cresshead
10-07-2005, 01:30 PM
autodesk revenues for last 6 months $728 million
avid revenues for the last 6 months $326million
adobe revenues for the last 6 months $1460million

autodesk net income for the last six months $151.4million
avid net income for the last six months $33.3million
adobe net income for the last six months $33.3million

seems avid is 3rd in all sectors above.....
autodesk and adobe swap top place in net income as autodesk have nr 5 times as much as adobe.
yet adobe has double the revenues of autodesk.


thing is adobe are NOT in the 3d market...so it's like comparing apples to oranges.

ibanezhead
10-07-2005, 01:39 PM
Looks like Max and Maya will be continued and developed as separate products, but made better at talking to each other. At least for the next 3 years.

http://www.highend3d.com/articles/columns/4.html

Seems like damage control to me. They don't want everyone to jump ship on the Maya side. I imagine we will be seeing major changes in the next few years...

cresshead
10-07-2005, 01:52 PM
actually to me it looks more akin to 'taking control' than damage control.....

with max and maya in one camp autodesk now has total control over the games market and the film market with both max and maya...

i'd guess that autodesk realistically has some where like 85% of the film market and 95% of the games market.....

just look thru the job pages in that market to guage the depth of MAYA and MAX re jobs.

film leftovers are lightwave, xsi and houdini
game scraps are xsi and lightwave!

of course tv is still belongs to lightwave with some maya in there and a wee bit of 3dsmax and xsi.......

cresshead
10-07-2005, 01:55 PM
with that it look obvious that newtek should fous on the tv market and get ready for that to ramp upto HD res [hd has been around in production for a while] where newtek need to actually get film like tools and capabilites inthere to maintain and grow their position and not let maya in there thru the back door of film where it came from!

steve g

vee
10-07-2005, 11:31 PM
autodesk revenues for last 6 months $728 million
avid revenues for the last 6 months $326million
adobe revenues for the last 6 months $1460million
.

cresshead, believe me I know very little about financial matters, so don't think i'm trying to come off as some wallstreet wizard, i'm not. But i think the main thing in determinig the worth of a publicly traded company is by their Market Capitalization (or the number of stocks they have on the market times the value of the stocks).

Adobe 14.4 billion
Autodesk 10.3 billion
Avid 1.6 billion

As what the heck reference

Apple 42 billion
MicroSoft 264.9 billion
Intel 144.7 billion
AMD 9.4 billion