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ScorpioProd
10-02-2005, 11:18 PM
OK, here's a challange for the potential third-party developers out there...

Can anyone make a utility program to capture (transfer) HDV2 1080i from Sony camcorders and HDV1 720p from JVC ones into a computer via firewire, and then render it out in its native resolution to the NT25 codec?

The NT25 codec will support these resolutions and VT[4] 4.5 will load in the NT25 codec with those resolutions.

And NT25 is an AVI codec, so I figure the rendering to it shouldn't be complicated, but I have no idea how complicated the M2T capture is. There are a ton of DV utilities out there, but none for HDV that I know of.

Newtek doesn't seem to have any interest in doing this, even though I sent them the results from my poll conducted months ago showing the user desire for this ability, even if we are still limited to SD out.

To recap, pan and scan is a useful reason for it. Not to mention simply being able to use HDV footage inside a VT[4]!

So, anyone up for the challange?

MBeck
10-03-2005, 06:14 AM
Man, I sure hope so! I am getting ready to get a Sony HD cam and would love to see this!

John Perkins
10-03-2005, 08:42 AM
CapDVHS works. If you Google for it, you can find it and related utilities. The DVHS guys have had the problem for a while. Then you could use something like EO video to transcode.

I know it isn't exactly what you are trying to get, but that is as close and as cheap as I know.

Unfortunately I haven't seen anything with source to understand how it works. There is Linux support, but the 1394 on Linux is WAY different from DirectShow.

lstask
10-10-2005, 07:25 AM
To recap, pan and scan is a useful reason for it. Not to mention simply being able to use HDV footage inside a VT[4]!

So, anyone up for the challange?[/QUOTE]

This should work for 2-4

While you use the capture tool that JVC provided with your HD camera purchase. You start to capture an mpeg2-ts stream. The utility makes a temporary file as it captures.

Now before the utility finishes that means during the capture copy that temp file to a new location name it ??.MPG
Load it into your toaster and now you have HD video in your toaster?.

It's a little big but what a great pan and scan utility!!

This works for aftereffects and any other program that can read and playback an MPG file......


Good luck

kirkmorger
10-10-2005, 11:02 AM
Here's a painless way, download these two tools:

HDTV to MPEG2 (http://www.eecs.umich.edu/~balazer/HDTVtoMPEG2/HDTVtoMPEG2_1.11-Beta3.zip)
VirtualDub-MPEG2 (http://fcchandler.home.comcast.net/stable/VirtualDub-MPEG2.zip)

(they are both very small, free, and require no installer. Just put them in their own directories).

Launch HDTVtoMPEG2 and drag your .m2t files into it.
Select the channel checkbox near the upper right.
Exclude any regions you don't want converted, click process.

To convert the resulting MPEG2's into an AVI for frame accurate editing:
Launch VirtualDub-MPEG2 and drag the MPEG into it.
Select full processing, select NT25 in the compression menu.
Select a quality of 90.
File -> Save As AVI.

I've included a couple pics.

nevmoor
10-10-2005, 11:36 AM
KIRK!!!COOL!!
How long is this conversion process? (per minute of video)
List your processor speeds so I'll have an idea what it will take for me!!

kirkmorger
10-10-2005, 12:11 PM
The conversion from transport to program stream is Very fast, and if you have direct show configured correctly, that may be all you need.

However, VirtualDub Conversion from mpeg to avi is about 20 fps on my machine.

There are obviously alternatives, but this method is fairly fool proof and will work even if direct show isn't configured correctly or there aren't any MPEG-2 decoders installed.

Jim_C
10-10-2005, 12:14 PM
You should know this is coming Kirk..but......


and if you have direct show configured correctly


Is it a quick explanation as to how to make sure it is? Or a link?

Thanks

Jim

ScorpioProd
10-10-2005, 02:53 PM
That's our Kirk, still acting like a third-party developer! :)

That's two-thirds of the solution, but unfortunately I still don't know of a way to get the HDV into the computer. Unlike JVC's early efforts, Sony doesn't include any utility software to do this. :(

I'll have to look for that CapDVHS thing, is that the best way?

kirkmorger
10-10-2005, 03:10 PM
CapDVHS can be found at CapDVHS (http://www.yamabe.org/soft/CapDVHS0306.zip)
I haven't personally tried it yet. It looks very simple, though.
edit: Tried it, seems to work fine on Sony's. I'm fairly certain it handles JVC's as well.

Zoom Player (http://www.inmatrix.com/zplayer/formats/mpeg2.shtml) has some interesting info on configuring direct show for MPEG-2. Not for the faint of heart, though.

kleima
10-10-2005, 11:06 PM
Can't the HDV just be "copied" via firewire?

kleima
10-10-2005, 11:08 PM
And, if not, then capture with Vegas. (Most of us have it anyway, right??) :)

ScorpioProd
10-11-2005, 01:49 AM
It can only be "copied" if you have a program to copy it with.

Well, though it is true I will probably be getting Vegas, I think it's important for VT to have a way to input HDV without ANY other NLEs needing to be present.

Personally, I am going to be doing my first HDV wedding shoot end of this month, so I need some way to edit it, either in VT or in Vegas.

Believe me, I would rather stick with VT for my HDV editing, and this type of workaround will help, but really VT needs real HDV support sooner rather than later.

But again, even needing to go through three different programs before editing it in VT is better than not being able to edit it in VT at all! :)

kleima
10-11-2005, 11:51 AM
I agree that VT needs the capability itself. Soon. But, we were talking about workarounds.
I have Vegas, but I would also probably rather go through those three programs to get it into VT than actually edit in Vegas!
Although Vegas would allow you to actually output the HDV, and with this workaround, you could edit in VT, but couldn't output the HDV.

ScorpioProd
10-11-2005, 03:34 PM
Although Vegas would allow you to actually output the HDV, and with this workaround, you could edit in VT, but couldn't output the HDV.

Which is a big limitation. See, thing is, I only see the value of bringing HDV resolution into VT with SD output for pan and zoom uses. If you're only outputting SD, then you might as well input SD, for other uses.

Vegas is different, I don't think it's really that bad, I'm learning it...

Bobt
10-11-2005, 07:23 PM
Kirk is their source code somewhere for a HD capture app
that can be modified to write out to AVI?

Seems like it would be pretty straight forward of the
decompression/compression is fast enough.

Bob

inquisitive
10-11-2005, 09:02 PM
sure would be nice if VT could handle HDV, i mean if Vegas can.. why cant VT?

Maybe the :alien: are working with Sony.

ScorpioProd
10-11-2005, 09:12 PM
I see it more like:

If Vegas, FCP, Premiere Pro, EDIUS, Matrox, Pinnacle, Avid, and even Ulead can work with HDV, why can't VT! :stumped:

inquisitive
10-11-2005, 09:26 PM
well yes, i was referring to the context of this one post...

What puzzles me is that it seems NT doesnt recognize that there is another segement of customers outhere that could purchase VT.

With more and more fancy video cameras at cheaper prices, and an increase acceptance of movies created with videocameras, you would think VT would capitalize on that.

Vegas 3.0 can read mpeg2 files, VT cannot, maybe it can after you buy a codec but i didnt have to buy one for Vegas, it just works.

and to put some NT loyalty into this post, I had my first Video Toaster back in Amiga days - installed on the all powerful A3000 w/ 16MB of RAM hehe

would be nice if one could edit a movie if one so desired in whatever format without having to rely on other applications.

kleima
10-11-2005, 11:04 PM
I bet they are just about to release HDV support... (maybe in the upcoming free release!) :vticon: :)

nevmoor
10-12-2005, 07:51 AM
Eugene and others, am I reading correctly??
Was it stated that the NT25 codec can handle HDV resolution files? Meaning that the above CapDVHS/coversion process can put a full HDV stream onto VT via the NT25 codec? If so doesnt this really mean that this codec could be a precursor the the frame rate/rez issues that VT has. Or does it just address the resolution stuff.
Thanks just trying to understand the VT workarounds for HDV.

ScorpioProd
10-12-2005, 12:50 PM
Eugene and others, am I reading correctly??
Was it stated that the NT25 codec can handle HDV resolution files? Meaning that the above CapDVHS/coversion process can put a full HDV stream onto VT via the NT25 codec? If so doesnt this really mean that this codec could be a precursor the the frame rate/rez issues that VT has. Or does it just address the resolution stuff.
Thanks just trying to understand the VT workarounds for HDV.

NT25 can handle the HDV or HD resolutions fine, and VT can read 1920X1080 fine, but this isn't anything new for the VT. I've used PicVideo's M-JPEG codec to experiment with 1080i in VT-Edit years ago and it mostly worked for getting stuff into VT.

NT25 would be a great HD codec, but as for frame rate stuff and such, no way to know until the VT can actually support full frame rate and resolution independance for output. Getting HD in without getting HD out is only really useful for pan and zoom type stuff. Which again, is useful for specific purposes, but not nirvana for general use.

Some people like to think that the VT is internally resolution independant and oh, just a little change is needed to let that come out the other end. Well, that is plainly not the case. If it was, Newtek would have done it by now. Why not? Well, even if you could flip a switch and have HD on the output, what about all the supporting things? Things like DVEs, CG, etc.? Most of these are functions that aren't even 16:9 capable yet alone HD capable.

So, no, I don't see HDV support coming in a "real" form from Newtek for a while, and certainly not as a free upgrade. The main reason is no way are just "minor" changes needed to make this happen.

But, to conclude this thread, it's great to find that there is a workaround method that can get HDV into VT at least for now, for the pan and zoom purposes I described.

DefcomDMC
10-13-2005, 01:31 PM
I tried Kirk's method of HDVtoMPEG and then VirtualDub. Although HDVtoMPEG will do multiple files at once, VirtualDub seems to only handle one at a time. Is there another alternative?

edmellnik
10-19-2005, 06:14 PM
Eugene and others,,,keep in touch. I also have a Sony Z1U and Vegas.
I have only done preliminary tests with vegas. I am finding it a bit clunkie.
Unfortuneatly it does not use standard time code. And the HDV capture is absolutely bare bones.
Then you have to convert your HDV files to what they call intermediate files which are much bigger to do any kind of frame accurate editing...
Thinking of FCP for a better solution.

ed

ScorpioProd
10-19-2005, 08:27 PM
For HDV with Vegas, I would recommend the GearShift 1.5 plug-in. This is a proxy system that uses DV proxies of your HDV for frame accurate and quick response editing on systems that would be slow with HDV otherwise. Then in your final render it goes back and uses the native HDV footage, no intermediate used for this method.

But if you want FCP 5, the new Quad PowerPC G5 systems were announced today! :)

edmellnik
10-20-2005, 10:25 AM
So I take it you are using Gearshift successfully and find it a good solution.?
ed

ScorpioProd
10-21-2005, 03:33 PM
I saw GearShift 1.5 demoed, but I haven't actually used it myself yet.

mnbear
10-27-2005, 11:43 AM
Currently What I do is export from my Sony HDR-FX1 to Final Cut Pro, then export that via network to my VT4 and then import that into Lightwave and export it as an NT25 file.... alot of work, but the resulting file is easy enough to work with. None of the solutions on the PEECEE really seem to handle HDV very well (even vegas and and programs like HDLINK) arent nearly as easy as capturing using Final Cut Pro.... Even Final Cut Express now allows you to capture HD footage, so you dont have to spend $1000 on a program to do it, if you happen to have a mac. Frankly, the *ONLY* thing keeping me going completely to a Mac environment at this point is the VT4 and how much I love the interface, and the fact that Lightwave on the PEECEE works better, and now with the 64-bit version, it rules. When and if Lightwave 64-bit comes to OS X and fully supports Open GL 2, I will have to make a tough decision as to whether to stick with the VT-4 or just go completely Mac. I wish, wish wish... that Newtek would release the NT25 codec for Mac Lightwave.

Bobt
10-27-2005, 12:39 PM
Thats actually good news. The more expensive things are on the Mac
leaves some space on the PC for solutions.

Bob

Terrence
11-23-2005, 01:52 PM
When editing HDV in Vegas i bring in footage via the utility in mt2 format then re render it to a avi format.

The Rerendered format is viewable and editable in ted.

Performance however sucks and you would be better off editing with a washing maschine...

I Did some editing with Vegas (hate it) www.kensjogren.com it works tho.....

HDV please we need we shoot we want HDV