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kirillrdy
09-28-2005, 12:43 AM
Hey Guys, I am a student myself, and its been over a year already since i am using/enjoying the power and ease of Lightwave. I always wanted to learn 3D CG, and I knew I will go for it when I get to Uni (yeah I am that young). I started with 3D Max, dissapointed, at the complicity of software. Then I forgot about that all 3D stuff, until one of my friends mentioned Lightwave. Love at first sight. (honesly how many ppl love the soft :lightwave ). Anyways, as i was saying i learned lots from LW, and would definalty want to use it :) alot. Then comes the guy from Uni, talking about 3d Animation course. And gues what he tells me. Maya all the way. And when I mentioned Lightwave he laughed at me. He said "Only startrack sad people use LW". ****.....(just for info, its in Australia, )
Meanwhile my programming roots took me to Linux, where Blender 3D, and 64 bit, and ofcourse the very same Maya.
What I am trying to say i guess, is that its hard to leave, but I want Newtek :newtek: To Work Harder :P. So Lightwave will rule the world. :) And I would have to use Maya for a while.
Bytheway, I know that it will be simply repeating other threads, and people already discussed this BUT, i will just state myself.
Linux IS rising up, and ITS ALREADY moving fast towards the standars. Just in Case guys check out Ubuntu Linux, you'll be plesantly surprised. And 64bit. Its been ages since Linux moved to 64 bit, and windows (even though they made final XP64) still green as a grass in my back yard.
Since I've been using Linux for quiate a while now, I DID manage to Run LW on Linux using wine emulator, with slight UI faults, And I have been learning Blender, which i must admit as for 4 mb Opensource package has more than a few advantages over my beloved LW. And ALREADY 64 bit, and I can even see the time difference between renders done in win32 and linux64 , and I am sure they didnt change code ay anyway, Simply recompliling it. Now, to port LW to Linux shouldnt be a big deal (please forgive me, since i m just assuming). But I think that most of LW code is Platform independent.

So, its kinda Good bye, But I will be keeping up with Newtek news, and hope for 64bit/Linux and Ruling the world Ofrourse

Thank you for reading this
Kirill R

colkai
09-28-2005, 02:37 AM
Guy, really, if you take the opinion of one person then abandon LW because of that, you are gonna suffer no matter where you go.
What happens when a guy comes along and says Maya sucks, true pros use XSI, you gonna switch again?
Then someone tells you 3DS Max is "da bomb" so what?
Oh, and by the way, "Only startrack sad people use LW". NOT a very professional stance.

Take a look at all the CURRENT features and TV work done by LW, check out folks like Zoic and EdenFX. Lightwave has been, is, and more than likely, will remain, one of the top software packages in the visual media industry.

mattclary
09-28-2005, 06:19 AM
Good bye. Have a nice life. :sleeping:

gjjackson
09-28-2005, 07:02 AM
Sometimes people think you have to spend the most to get the best. There are occasions where this is the case. Even with Some software this is the case. But LW is more than worth it's price.
As far as Linux, the problem there is the variety of different versions. It seems installers aren't the same for all versions. This may offend some but I haven't been that impressed with Linux. It may be viable when it grows up.

Cageman
09-28-2005, 07:25 AM
Well, when I told my teachers at school (we are learning Maya, and 3D in general) that I got an educational version of Lightwave they just shook their heads. :)

All I'm saying is that MANY times I have to actually defend myself when I say that I want do use LW for, lets say, modeling. My classmates thinks Lightwave is cool and that it looks so easy to use (yeah, have showed it to some people). But, the teachers... that's another story.

Just as a sidenote: Before I started studying here at School of Future Entertainment, learning Maya, I studied at another school where I picked up Lightwave and ended up doing some visual effects for an independent movie, all that as a schoolproject. That's why I feel that LW is a tool that I want to use for certain things, and I feel that I can take a shot from scratch to finish alot faster in LW than in Maya. This is something the teachers know about, but they insist that LW isn't a good enough software.

Just may 2 cents...

mattclary
09-28-2005, 07:29 AM
Well, when I told my teachers at school (we are learning Maya, and 3D in general) that I got an educational version of Lightwave they just shook their heads. :)


There is a saying:
Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.

lardbros
09-28-2005, 09:44 AM
Ex-bloody-actly!!! My tutors at Uni also had exactly the same opinion about LW. I told them i was going to use it against their "better" judgement and they just said "Lightwave's old isn't it?" Even a tutor who has written stuff for 3dWorld magazine said "But how are you going to use HDRI in lightwave?"

Are these guys crazy? I had one tutor at uni who used Lightwave and was a LW nut. I did my dissertation using it and ended up getting a first for my short film. I didn't see anyone else in my year attempt AND complete a short film in the space of time we had. Goes to show, the others are much more expensive, and may have better cred with some people, but we have the best userbase i have ever seen!! YAY

Cageman
09-28-2005, 04:53 PM
I think this was the worst day, ever, at school. Well, one of the best also. Strange. Well, here it goes.

I was invited to another class, I think it could be translated to "Media Technicians" or something like that (they are not into 3D more than a couple of weeks or something). Well, I was invited to speak about the new In Flames musicvideo, a CGI-video that I and six others of my class did during four months, using Maya. This was fun and I had a great time talking and finaly I showed the video.

Later this day I sat down and continued on a model in Lightwave. It's a basedrum, and I was working on the pedal. My plan is to bring this model into Maya for some experiments with rigs and stuff like that (only animate the pedal, and the stick and chain moves accordingly, and stuff like that). Suddenly one of our teachers showed up and this is the conversation:

-Teacher: I see you are using Lightwave again.

-Me: Yes. I haven't touched modeling in almost 6 months (my tasks in almost every project has been the same; rigging, animation, technical direction, rendering and compositing) and I felt that now that I have Lightwave I wanted do be creative and do some modeling.

-Teacher: I see, but you should really use Maya.

-Me: Yeah, but... as I said, I wanted to do some modeling. It was a long time since I did that, and you know what I have done in Lightwave before I came here. I just want to produce something of my own, I will bring this model into Maya when it's finished. I've got some ideas I want to try out.

-Teacher (looking at the model): If I were you, I would probably use NURBS to model that.

-Me: Oh, ok.. well, I could check that out. Thanks for the tip.

-Teacher: You know, you loose out alot if you don't use Maya.

-Me: Well, I'm not following you now. I do use Maya alot. What do you meen?

-Teacher: You know, you can use animation tools to do modeling in Maya.

-Me (getting a bit nervous): Yeah, that's true..

-Teacher (almost preaching): And you can... (here he says alot of technical stuff that I can't remember, but it had alot to do with the ability to connect nodes, and the almost limitless possibilitys in Maya).

-Me (feeling very low, almost like I wanted to cry): Well, that's cool, but I just want to model this the way I feel confident to do it. As I said, I will bring it into Maya. I'm not against Maya or anything, I just want to do something that feels ok and I can model alot faster in Lightwave.


The teacher leaves. All the joy I had before he came by was lost. I was feeling awkward. Almost like I had commited a crime. I saved my object and just sat there. After about 10-15 minutes the teacher got back. He picked a chair and sat down beside me.

-Teacher: You know, Lightwave has a pretty good modeler. Massive Entertainment (this is a swedish gamecompany, for you that doesn't know, they made Ground Controll 1 and 2, amongst other things) are using Lightwave for all modeling. Actually, they even got Modo (now, this is very interresting, because when Modo was released, I asked if they would concider bringing copy to the school, because some other students were very interrested in it as well. The answer was short: NO).

Actually, you know.. alot of companies are using Lightwave in their pipeline. It's a good tool.

At this point I was feeling very confused and sad. What the **** was this about? First, he slander me for using Lightwave, and the next second he says that Lightwave is a good tool and is used alot in production. WTF?

My guess is that he saw in my face that he put me down alot, made my joy go away. This was his way to say: Ok, Im sorry, I went to far.

The next thing that happend was even more a surprise to me. He asked me to show how to do certain things in Lightwave. I showed him how to paint between morphtargets, using Airbrush and a morph as the falloff. He thought it was really cool, and also said that almost the same thing had been implemented in Maya 7. So we started Maya and he showed me how to do it. This went on, back and forth to actually show how to solve similar problems in both packages. It was great, and very productive.

Why the **** didn't he do this from the beginning? I'm still pissed off because he made me feel bad about using Lightwave and taking all the joy away.

Does anyone have a clue to why a person acts like this?

Here is a link to the In Flames-video: http://sofe04.byh.bth.se/thtj04/

Here you can see some of the stuff I made in Lightwave when I was studying at Kantzowska Mediacenter: http://hangar18.campus.luth.se/~cageman/portfolio/

UnCommonGrafx
09-28-2005, 05:03 PM
I don't really care why the teacher started the way he did but the ending is a dissertation.

You should detail the differences in a blog or something paper-like as that seems to be something people are requesting as of late. It's also a way for you to better 'defend' yourself in these conversations.

Good luck and keep the joy!
:lwicon: :vticon:

Surrealist.
09-28-2005, 07:56 PM
Money, jobs, keeping money and jobs and positions and status in life is the answer here.

Don't take it to heart. Avid is not the only solution to editing. Protools is not the only solution in Audio production/editing and Maya (or insert any other highend package here) is not the only solution for 3D.

However is nome circles you'd think each one of these were the only solutions.

These packages are targeted at highend studios and users. They are top of the line products and they deserve the praise that they get.

However they also become the status quo. It becomes status quo for two reasons. 1) they are good and 2) they are targeted at people who's job depends on keeping the status quo.

In reality more and more production houses are using LW in the pipeline. However, this particular issue revoles around economics.

A studio can afford to have the best of special effects for the next Speilburg film. Where do they go? ILM why not? They have the reputation of the standard. Why would they go anyplace else?

Parents want to send thier kids to school. They are going to pay a good sum of money. They want assurance that their kids are going to get the bast education.

A school is bound by the economic necessity to be competitive and prove to discerning parents that they have the best faculty and most up to date facilities and are teaching kids programs that are being used by the best production houses.

You won't often see Vegas taught in universities along side Avid or FCP is the same reason you won't often see LW embraced in Universities.

This is all based around the concept of the status quo.

Converstation with a parent:

"We are going to spend 50 grand on our boy's education over the next 4 years. Where should we send him?"

"What is he going to be doing?"

"He want's to learn 3D"

"Well, you don't need to spend that kind of money, you can buy LW for under a grand, a nice computer workstation for a couple of grand a few thousand on all the training books and videos he'll ever need leave him alone for a couple of years your set."

"Oh, but we want to be sure he is able to get a job."

"Well, if he is good enough, there are lots of production houses using LW and if he sends them a good reel..."

Conversation with dean of CGI school:

"Well what is your job placement record?"

"Well, there are no guarantees of course but 90% of our students who graduate find work in industry jobs."

"Why is that?'

"Well for one, we teach all of the mainstream packages that are used in Hollywood production houses..."

'Oh, do you teach lightwave?"

(Dean Laughs)

"Oh no... we only use the top of the line programs that are used, Lightwave is for people who are into hobbies..."

"But his freind says they use it in lots of production houses..."

"Yes... but it is used along with Maya and other....

"Do you teach Maya?'

"Oh why of course..."

It is about economics. Don't expect a university to embrace something inovative even if useful - especially if you can buy it for on tenth the cost of a one year tuition.

It is part and parcel - they think, maybe even foolishly - to staying alive.

Newtek is an innovative company and from the intoduction of the Toaster has changed the face of TV and Feature film effects. It should not be at all surprising that this is a threat to the status quo.

Lottmedia
09-28-2005, 08:46 PM
When I was at Uni, same thing. The professor who tought "3D" there used Maya and thought it was the cat's meyow. I got the same chat about Lightwave, which I'd been using for a while. I'd used the other pachages, Max, Maya, Truspace, Blender, ****, I started with POVray back on an amiga in command line. No interface, write out the code for hours, tell it to render, go get a sandwich and come back after a nice nap to find you misplaced a number and the whole thing is nt even in front of the camera! The point is I didn't say "the teacher said Lightwave sucks so I should use Maya" Should I drive the same car as her and vote the same way? I ended up completing more and better projects than the people using Maya (even those who had been using it) I don't CARE which is "better" or which studios have what. The fact or the matter is, 3D skills translate. After learning the ins and outs of one package, you can stumble through any, and THAT's more valuable to an employer than someone married to one package. It's the same as the OS wars, PC, Linux, Mac who cares?!? Concentrate on your skills and you'll shine no matter what you're doing, or what you're using. Remember, YOU'RE the artist, not the software.

J-Rod

Lottmedia
09-28-2005, 08:48 PM
BTW, those "*"s look kinda menacing there. It was just a place, rhymes with "well". You know, where politicians go when they die? :) Don't think me uncooth :)

Surrealist.
09-28-2005, 10:35 PM
Intersting points. You'd think that a professor of a university would be interested in something that would make someone a better artist.

Unfortunately that has nothing to do with it. That's the sad part.

Cageman
09-29-2005, 02:19 AM
Hi again, and thanks for the posts.

Today, I feel alot of joy again. :) This morning I played around with Lightwave, and I was thinking about what my teacher said about using animation-tools to aid in modeling. Now, I found that there are plenty of ways doing that in LW as well. You can always bring a model into Layout and apply whatever deformation you like and then save the transformed object. Also, and this is something I did not know about at all, is that you can save the transformed object as an endomorph. Really, really cool stuff.

Now, it may not be as intuitive and "dynamic" as in Maya, but it's pretty clear to me that I can use animation-tools to aid modeling.

Overall, I think that what happened yesterday was a good thing, because it trigged me to do something I may not have done, and I actually discovered some things about Lightwave that I did not know about before. I also got to see some nice and cool stuff in Maya.

I WILL keep the joy! :jam:

Surrealist.
09-29-2005, 02:57 AM
Awesome. And this is where LW is headed. What Maya has been doing has been cutting edge - I think. This is a good thing. I am glad LW is headed in this direction so be looking forward to it. I know I will. I am a huge LW supporter from the first version and an owner/user since version 2. It was just the solution I needed for a low budget production and without it I would have never finished. I have never forgotton that. But I also look to the future and it is very bright indeed.

kirillrdy
09-29-2005, 06:40 PM
Hey, Thanks guys for your opinions,
When I get to Uni (if i will, lets not forget about exams) we'll see. Lightwave is still my faivourite tool, despite that I would still have to learn Maya.

lardbros
09-30-2005, 06:25 AM
You don't HAVE to use it. My uni had a module where we "HAD" to use XSI to create an advert. I gave it a shot... but just got fed up when i was trying to look for a weld point tool... or a build polygon tool. Couldn't find them anywhere, and someone on my course even said that XSI (whatever version it was 4 yrs ago) didn't have a weld point tool!!!?? I just thought bugger this, and modelled everything in Lightwave. The tutors didn't know any different. I should really have 'opened my mind' as my university slogan goes, but XSI just didn't do it for me.

But, on the other hand, learning Maya is probably a very good idea anyway. The more you know the better.

spec24
09-30-2005, 09:26 AM
[QUOTE=Surrealist.]Intersting points. You'd think that a professor of a university would be interested in something that would make someone a better artist.QUOTE]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. That's a good one Surrealist (the professor part)! Your statement though is a little off-base. As we all should know, there's no tool that will make you a better artist. Be it LW, Maya, 3DSM, or some pen and a paper. Someone, somewhere, got the cock-a-maymee (sp) idea that the more expensive your tools the better an artist you'll be. This mind set is now ingrained in so many people's heads! The end user, be it tv veiwer, movie watcher, game player, doesn't give a rat's behind what you used to create it as long as it looks cool. A lot of money changes hands, especially in a university, and you can rest assured that that has something to do with the pressure to ram one program down student's throats. However, that being said, it is also understandable that in the world outside of school there are a great many people using Maya, 3DS and XSI. Not sure which came first, the chicken or the egg - whether university's started teaching these programs so more people graduated knowing them or more productions houses required it - but it does seem to be that these packages are leading the mainstream, and universities want their students to get the best, highest paying jobs. LW is most definitely used in a lot of production houses, and certainly these "professor's" shouldn't chastise their students by making fun of the tools they choose to use. I use LW and hope to continue using it long into the future. We'll have to see if Newtek can up the ante' by taking the clunk out LW. I hope so.

robk
09-30-2005, 09:55 AM
Lightwave, Maya, XSi Blender etc. WHO CARES!!
I don't care how good you get with these tools a DaVinci or Picasso will run circles around you with a hunk of charcoal.
So repeat again class. It's not the software it's the Artist.
I have run a rendering business for 7 years using Imagine (talk about no respect) on the Amiga and PC before switching to Lightwave. I never had any clients complain about the quality of my renders because of using second rate (in some peoples minds) software. I use many programs to produce renders (just about all my modelling is done in Autocad) and most people in 3d will do that. I couldn't even imagine modelling a building in lightwave, I barely know how to make a polygon.
So just use the tools you are comfortable with and don't fall to peer pressure.
I you are happy and your clients are happy who cares. 98% of my clients don't know or care what software I use.

paulrus
09-30-2005, 10:13 AM
My uni had a module where we "HAD" to use XSI to create an advert. I gave it a shot... but just got fed up when i was trying to look for a weld point tool...
M for move, hold the alt key and points weld together.



or a build polygon tool.

N key and then draw out a polygon

Sorry you had such a bad experience, but I'm not sure why nobody could help you figure those 2 things out. Both packages are excellent and each have strengths and weaknesses.

Paul

lardbros
09-30-2005, 10:29 AM
M for move, hold the alt key and points weld together.


N key and then draw out a polygon

Sorry you had such a bad experience, but I'm not sure why nobody could help you figure those 2 things out. Both packages are excellent and each have strengths and weaknesses.

Paul

I figured out the polygon one by myself... but what is the interface equivalent? What is it called to weld some points when not using keyboard shortcuts? It CERTAINLY wasn't 'weld points' or 'merge points' or 'join the dots' back when i was using it.

Surrealist.
09-30-2005, 07:11 PM
[QUOTE=Surrealist.]Intersting points. You'd think that a professor of a university would be interested in something that would make someone a better artist.QUOTE]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. That's a good one Surrealist (the professor part)! Your statement though is a little off-base. As we all should know, there's no tool that will make you a better artist. .

What in gods name are you talking about my man? :D

I think you are confused, that has nothing to do with what I was saying, but that's cool.

Anyway. I agree with everything else you said as it was pretty much what I said in my earler post. So I'll have to humbly say those are good obeservations. :)

spec24
10-01-2005, 04:02 PM
[QUOTE=spec24]

What in gods name are you talking about my man? :D

I think you are confused, that has nothing to do with what I was saying, ...

Hmm. It doesn't? I was just laughing, for one, because, imo, professor's care very little about the student and what will make them better, and two, we both know it's not the tool that makes them a better artist. That's all I was saying. I didn't think I was confused... maybe I am :D

Surrealist.
10-01-2005, 06:27 PM
[QUOTE=Surrealist.]

Hmm. It doesn't? I was just laughing, for one, because, imo, professor's care very little about the student and what will make them better, and two, we both know it's not the tool that makes them a better artist. That's all I was saying. I didn't think I was confused... maybe I am :D

Well you are only confused because the second part was not my statement - nor anyone's. I was only commenting on this guy who was doing well with lightwave and it was helping him in his workflow and the professor wanted nothing to do with that. So his choice of tools was an artistic choice because a) he was confortable using the tool and b) becuse it was fast and easy and thus helped his workflow. I don't know how you extrapolated out of that that it is the tool that makes the artist. It's a valid point of course but no one was saying anything like that at all. In fact he was ranting on about how it has nothing to do with a particular package. Skill is skill:


I ended up completing more and better projects than the people using Maya (even those who had been using it) I don't CARE which is "better" or which studios have what. The fact or the matter is, 3D skills translate. After learning the ins and outs of one package, you can stumble through any, and THAT's more valuable to an employer than someone married to one package. It's the same as the OS wars, PC, Linux, Mac who cares?!? Concentrate on your skills and you'll shine no matter what you're doing, or what you're using. Remember, YOU'RE the artist, not the software.


I am still trying to find where yo got that idea from. Oh well. All is good. :)