PDA

View Full Version : Why Black?



Surrealist.
09-27-2005, 06:33 PM
You can change shadow color.

You can't change shading color.

I want control of this.

Karmacop
09-27-2005, 08:35 PM
That would need to be a surface option, but I'm all for it. It will mean a change in Lightwave's shading though ...

Silkrooster
09-27-2005, 09:27 PM
:agree: There are times when lighting is not suppose to look natural at least on other planets or the cartoon world.
Silk

Surrealist.
09-27-2005, 10:18 PM
Bingo. Or even Art. And expecially in art or artistic looking animation.

In art you can mix color into black or visa versa. Or you can choose to have no black at all.

Pretty please. :)

BazC
09-28-2005, 02:12 AM
I'm not clear what you're requesting, do you mean the colour of the unilluminated side of objects? If so, surely that's what ambient lighting controls? - Baz

riki
09-28-2005, 05:02 AM
mmmmm shade colour??

BazC
09-28-2005, 05:07 AM
"Just change it in the Light Properties panel under the shadow tab"

Nope, shadow colour is not what's being discussed

"You can change shadow color.

You can't change shading color. "

Though I'm not clear what is meant by shading colour. :(

Dodgy
09-28-2005, 05:25 AM
http://www.andynicholas.com/thezone/index.php?area=getfile&app=LW&file=2

Try that :)

Celshader
09-28-2005, 10:52 AM
You can change shadow color.

You can't change shading color.

I want control of this.

I don't know if this will do exactly what you want...but...

...have you had a chance to try LightWave's built-in BESM shader? It's a "toon" shader, and I rarely use it myself, but I think you can use it to change the shading color. At least, you can put a soft overlay of color onto the lit areas of your surface with it.

I think the unReal shader can do the same thing.

BazC
09-28-2005, 11:10 AM
A gradient with light incidence as the input parameter would do the same thing too.

Surrealist.
09-28-2005, 11:10 PM
I don't know if this will do exactly what you want...but...

...have you had a chance to try LightWave's built-in BESM shader? It's a "toon" shader, and I rarely use it myself, but I think you can use it to change the shading color. At least, you can put a soft overlay of color onto the lit areas of your surface with it.

I think the unReal shader can do the same thing.

Thanks.

Yeah, a few months ago I asked this question - with about the same responces, though noone mentioned BESM. I was able to figure out the plugin pretty much with no docs through a lot of testing. Problem is, it is limited, though going in the right direction.

I have yet to play with unreal, so thanks for the reminder, I'll look into it.

Just don't understand why you can have access to this info on lights but not on surfaces. It seems like it should just be simple, right there next to the surface color - shading color.


With BSEM, incident gradients and all of the other things I tried I was not happy with the results. It is either too luminous or the settings I have to set to get the color the way I want it make an ugly or otherwise unusable surface. Seems it should just be a separate control.

But hey I am not a surface expert. In oil painting for example oif you don't want black, you just don't add it. Simple. You don;t have to add all kinds of precesses and so on just to not add a color you want.

This is oversimplified but what if it was green? What if everything defaulted to green? On the dark side of an object it's green. What are we to do? Well, you have to apply a shader for that. What? I just don't want green. Is there not somplace in the code that says. "default shadier color...green"

So with this rediculous over-simplified example, see what I mean? Why is it black? Because it's always been black. So I want to have control over what color that is. Somplace deep in the code probably since vierion 1 Alan typed in, 000,000,000, for the default shading color. Why in the world would anybody want to change that?

If anyone knows how to get the result of this atttached image let me know.


Thanks again Jen, you're the best. :)

Surrealist.
09-28-2005, 11:13 PM
http://www.andynicholas.com/thezone/index.php?area=getfile&app=LW&file=2

Try that :)

Thanks, Dodgy, I think you gave me this link before. Anyway I have it.

Will this do what I describe, and how?

Surrealist.
09-28-2005, 11:29 PM
"Just change it in the Light Properties panel under the shadow tab"

Nope, shadow colour is not what's being discussed

"You can change shadow color.

You can't change shading color. "

Though I'm not clear what is meant by shading colour. :(

I am sorry, maybe it is just my complete igonorace, but it seems so simple to me. Probably because I spent most of last year doing oil paintings. I made and sold a couple of hundred of them. Not a drop of black in the mixture, save for some backgrounds. But all the shading was with the base color which was dark. Thallo Blue, Thallo Green. The closest to black was Burnt Umber.

Oil paint is made from linseed oil and minerals as pigment. Just about the purest form of color there is I guess.

I guess RGB is just an approximation and in theory I guess all RGB color has some black. Sometimes I think I am spinning my wheels trying to explain something that ought to be so simple to see.

It took staring at my oilpaintings 12 hrs a day 5 days a week for a year to start looking at the world of color differently.

Most photos, art, graphics, whatever all have black. Things get shaded in the real world and get black. Simple. Then there is ambient reflections of surrounding colors that can mix in and so on.

All I am saying is in my artwork I wan't to say. No that';s not the way it is in this world. In this world when things get dark, they get dark to the color I specify. Simple.

It's sometimes refered to as monochrome.

Karmacop
09-29-2005, 01:44 AM
So with this rediculous over-simplified example, see what I mean? Why is it black? Because it's always been black. So I want to have control over what color that is. Somplace deep in the code probably since vierion 1 Alan typed in, 000,000,000, for the default shading color. Why in the world would anybody want to change that?


I think you'll that it's because black is the absence of light :p

BazC
09-29-2005, 02:39 AM
Well first off don't try and get 3d to work like paint (well I suppose you might find a NPR renderer that mimics paint) colour in 3d and computers in general work more like light than paint, RGB contains NO black! Just red, green and blue, turn all those off and you'll get black.

Now to your problem, firstly can you find a 3d generated image that shows what you want? That would give everyone a reference point to work from, a picture of a painting isn't that useful.

The black you are seeing is a total absense of light as Karmacop says so to change that you need to change the lighting not the material. Using a high level of strongly coloured ambient light may do what you want.

There are things you can do with surfaces too, like using BESM or a gradient linked to your light source. In Cinema you could also add coloured luminosity which I don't think is possible in Lightwave, maybe in 9 with it's new surface editor tree? - Baz

Surrealist.
09-29-2005, 02:51 AM
I think you'll that it's because black is the absence of light :p

Yeah of course man. OK I know you're just half kidding. That's the whole point. Fron the dark side of the moon to other specific places the sun don't shine, the absence of light is black. However we have a simple easy-to -render solution for shadows that are not black - shadow color.

Imagine if to have colored shadows you had to bounce rays off the green table top and all of the surroundings, calculate and mix all of that together just to get colored shadows?

This is what I am getting at. That would be rediculous. Right? All you have to do is change the shadow color.

Now to change what color a surface gets when it is not in the light, you have to jump all kinds of hoops, add a shader, do this do that - and I still have not been able to get it to work right.

Hasn't anyone asked themselves, Why is the back side of this object black yet the shadow is a deep green?

That is completely inconsistant. I am talking about artisic effects here not "the real world".

The possibilities would be endless without even the hit of render time due to ray calculation.

BazC
09-29-2005, 02:59 AM
There you go, is this the kind of thing you want? I acheived the effect using a light blue light and 100% ambient coloured mid blue. The surface is white.
Hope that helps! - Baz

http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/5282/blueboy7zt.jpg

Captain Obvious
09-29-2005, 03:40 AM
The problem with that method, BazC, is that you can't have different colours on different objects. Luminosity isn't an option either, since it only goes by the colour channel. You can't have a red object where the backside is getting green light, for example. It also doesn't respect the diffuse channel.

Dodgy
09-29-2005, 03:53 AM
Thanks, Dodgy, I think you gave me this link before. Anyway I have it.

Will this do what I describe, and how?


It will, and try it and see :)

BazC
09-29-2005, 04:09 AM
The problem with that method, BazC, is that you can't have different colours on different objects. Luminosity isn't an option either, since it only goes by the colour channel. You can't have a red object where the backside is getting green light, for example. It also doesn't respect the diffuse channel.


True! I'm not saying I've given one solution which will work in all situations but the ambient light method does recreate the effect of the painting Surrealist posted. Other than that using gradients linked to lights (or BESM etc) could acheive a similar effect. Using a combination of techniques should recreate just about any effect you can think of! (just how often would you want a different ambient light colour for each object anyway!)

It seems to me that Surrealist is asking for ambient light settings on a per surface basis, I don't know if that is practical, does any package offer that?

Captain Obvious
09-29-2005, 04:13 AM
It seems to me that Surrealist is asking for ambient light settings on a per surface basis, I don't know if that is practical, does any package offer that?
Yep. Pixels 3D's Shadermaker doesn't have a luminosity setting in the standard material shader. Instead, it has a setting for ambient light, complete with colour and all.

BazC
09-29-2005, 04:26 AM
Yep. Pixels 3D's Shadermaker doesn't have a luminosity setting in the standard material shader. Instead, it has a setting for ambient light, complete with colour and all.

Well that would do it! :)

Meanwhile here's another approach using surface settings. White light and no ambient. The colour is produced using a gradient linked to the light, I then copied the gradient to the luminosity channel and tweaked it a bit so it didn't burn out the highlight or look as though it's glowing. I reckon between these two techniques you could reproduce most effects. You could simulate diffuse effect by copying the diffuse channel to the luminosity chnnel and layering it with the gradient.

http://img345.imageshack.us/img345/6820/colouredshadow5rg.jpg

Captain Obvious
09-29-2005, 04:42 AM
What is it linked to? Distance to light? The problem then is that it's fairly hard to animate. Even if you just move the object or light, you'll have to re-tweak the settings.

Feature request: gradient input based on diffuse light recieved! That would be exceedlingly useful, since it would also allow you to do gamut changes and such.

Surrealist.
09-29-2005, 04:46 AM
There you go, is this the kind of thing you want? I acheived the effect using a light blue light and 100% ambient coloured mid blue. The surface is white.
Hope that helps! - Baz

http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/5282/blueboy7zt.jpg


Yeah. That was cool. Thanks.

You can get a similar look with luminosity on a per serface basis and then the incidence gradient you were talking about. This was about as far as I had gotten last time. I did not try ambient light though. Inovative idea.


The problem I have with these techniques is that you wind up compromizing other settings to achive this. You know what I mean?

Sounds like you have a good handle on stuff. Surfacing and lighting are my current weakest points. I am a great student though. :)

That was a hint in case you want to mess with it. I am looking to achive what Capt obvious is talkng about. Something where you can just change this color if it is possible without actually compromizing other attributes.

Well anyway the reason I posted this here was because it seems like it should just be a setting as Capt obv pointed out in pixel 3D.

Thanks for pitchin in. :)

BazC
09-29-2005, 04:46 AM
"What is it linked to? Distance to light?"

The gradient input is light incidence so it should behave just like real shadows, move the light and the shading changes to match, I don't think moving the light or object would make surface setting changes necessary. I'm not an animator though! :)

Surrealist.
09-29-2005, 04:51 AM
Well that would do it! :)

Meanwhile here's another approach using surface settings. White light and no ambient. The colour is produced using a gradient linked to the light, I then copied the gradient to the luminosity channel and tweaked it a bit so it didn't burn out the highlight or look as though it's glowing. I reckon between these two techniques you could reproduce most effects. You could simulate diffuse effect by copying the diffuse channel to the luminosity chnnel and layering it with the gradient.

http://img345.imageshack.us/img345/6820/colouredshadow5rg.jpg

Yeah, I see where you are going.

Would it not be easier to just set the color though and be done? See where I am heading?

BazC
09-29-2005, 04:53 AM
That was a hint in case you want to mess with it. I am looking to achive what Capt obvious is talkng about. Something where you can just change this color if it is possible without actually compromizing other attributes.

Well anyway the reason I posted this here was because it seems like it should just be a setting as Capt obv pointed out in pixel 3D.

Thanks for pitchin in. :)

My pleasure! You might want to try the technique in my other post with the coloured ball, it will work on a per object basis, ambient light will obviously affect everything in the scene. The gradient linked to a light incidence is more complex than your request but it's not really difficult to set up. :)

Surrealist.
09-29-2005, 04:53 AM
It will, and try it and see :)


Cool, I'll mess with it.

BazC
09-29-2005, 05:00 AM
Yeah, I see where you are going.

Would it not be easier to just set the color though and be done? See where I am heading?


Yeah I take your point! :) It's not an effect that many people will require frequently though so I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for Newtek to implement it. I mean the saturated lighting effects seen in Pixar films or sci-fi effects of alien environments can be acheived with coloured light, shadow and strong ambient light. More unusual, per surface effects can be acheived with a bit more effort too.

Who knows though, the renderer is being overhauled and the surface editor too so you may get your wish! :) - Baz

Mylenium
09-29-2005, 05:55 AM
"What is it linked to? Distance to light?"

The gradient input is light incidence so it should behave just like real shadows, move the light and the shading changes to match, I don't think moving the light or object would make surface setting changes necessary. I'm not an animator though! :)

Too bad LW does not allow to choose "All lights" as input, so this technique is still a lot of work if you want to use multiple light sources (create per light gradients and then blend their results). I'm beginning to think Surrealist might be onto something that could be useful (didn't see much sense in the initial request, i have to admit)...

Mylenium

Celshader
09-29-2005, 07:01 AM
If anyone knows how to get the result of this atttached image let me know.


Thanks again Jen, you're the best. :)

Glad to be of some help. :^) Have you toyed with front-projected diffuse/bump/color maps for that paper texture?

Another thought is what BazC already mentioned: Light Incidence gradients. You will not get ray-traced shadows from a Light Incidence gradient, but you can use it in the color channel to "shade" your character.

Also...seriously consider a compositing package for the ultimate 2D control over your render output. That way you can render out each element seperately and tweak the color results to your heart's content. You can even experiment with adding different paper textures in the compositing stage, instead of committing to a single paper texture in the 3D stage.

If you're just rendering stills, you don't need a compositing package. For still images, you can get away with using your favorite image editor to composite/color seperate elements.

Karmacop
09-29-2005, 08:27 AM
Yeah of course man. OK I know you're just half kidding. That's the whole point. Fron the dark side of the moon to other specific places the sun don't shine, the absence of light is black. However we have a simple easy-to -render solution for shadows that are not black - shadow color.

Yep, I know. The reason Lightwave doesn't have this is because of Lightwave's shading system. Will they change the shading system for 9? Probably not. But, with the new nodal shading system you should be able to change the shading system to do exactly what you want.

Surrealist.
09-29-2005, 04:19 PM
Yep, I know. The reason Lightwave doesn't have this is because of Lightwave's shading system. Will they change the shading system for 9? Probably not. But, with the new nodal shading system you should be able to change the shading system to do exactly what you want.

Cool. Thanks...looking forward to nine.

Surrealist.
09-29-2005, 04:28 PM
Glad to be of some help. :^) Have you toyed with front-projected diffuse/bump/color maps for that paper texture?

Another thought is what BazC already mentioned: Light Incidence gradients. You will not get ray-traced shadows from a Light Incidence gradient, but you can use it in the color channel to "shade" your character.

Also...seriously consider a compositing package for the ultimate 2D control over your render output. That way you can render out each element seperately and tweak the color results to your heart's content. You can even experiment with adding different paper textures in the compositing stage, instead of committing to a single paper texture in the 3D stage.

If you're just rendering stills, you don't need a compositing package. For still images, you can get away with using your favorite image editor to composite/color seperate elements.


Thanks for the tips. Paper I tried and liked textured envornment but did not try front projection. That's interesting. Not even sure I want to go for the paper ot even the oil painted look in the end but thanks for those tips anyway. :)

Thanks for all the tips. I have been trying to avoid having to use a comp software. I could do that fairly well with my current NLE, it has plenty of real time compositing options - like PS layers, the newest version even has animatable vector masks with soft edges so no need for a separate app. Problem is time. I don't necessarily want to add time to the project. I want to reduce render times and post time. But we'll see how it shakes out so very much appreciate you taking the time to inspire.

Thanks again.:)

Surrealist.
09-29-2005, 04:33 PM
BTW thanks to Baz and Milllinium for the earlier posts there I missed. :)

We'll see what happens I guess huh? LW9 is going to be a boon either way!


My pleasure! You might want to try the technique in my other post with the coloured ball, it will work on a per object basis, ambient light will obviously affect everything in the scene. The gradient linked to a light incidence is more complex than your request but it's not really difficult to set up. :)

OK, I now have some more info to work on anyway in the mean time. Thanks. :)

Dodgy
09-29-2005, 05:25 PM
The plugin I linked to will do the shading aspect. The paper could be done in a compositor, or Photoshop easily, or render out a paper texture and use texture filter.

Surrealist.
09-29-2005, 08:12 PM
The plugin I linked to will do the shading aspect. The paper could be done in a compositor, or Photoshop easily, or render out a paper texture and use texture filter.

Thanks. Paper is the easy part. Still trying to figure out the plugin.

erikals
10-04-2005, 04:17 PM
... But, with the new nodal shading system you should be able to change the shading system to do exactly what you want.

Cool, I've always thought LW lacked easy adjustments as far as colors go.
(Thanks everyone for hints, my renderes will look much better now :))

erikals
10-04-2005, 05:43 PM
Only problem with this is that it requires that you tweak each surface, which can be time-consuming.
Below is a 5.5 sec rendertime test. (Using AmbiColor plugin)

http://erikalstad.com/cgtemp/AmbiColorAndShadowColor2.jpg