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View Full Version : Procedurals in OpenGL- 8.5 Demo



WilliamVaughan
09-14-2005, 11:35 AM
Procedurals in OpenGL- 8.5 Demo

In this demo you can see procedural textures being displayed in openGL taking advantage of the new openGL 2 features in 8.5

Length: 3 minutes
Size:21 MB

Click here to view (ftp://ftp.newtek.com/pub/LightWave/Tutorials/Vidz/opengl.mov)

Stooch
09-14-2005, 12:08 PM
OH MY GOD! when will the update be available?

Lamont
09-14-2005, 12:18 PM
Nice. Will GLSL also support normal maps?

KillMe
09-14-2005, 12:26 PM
will they show in modeler too?

lw3d23
09-14-2005, 12:53 PM
THANKS proton! A very cool feature, and good demo, it is lw8.5 though. However, I believe the new dev team will give us some big impact when LW 9 released.
can't wait any demo of LW 9!!! especially rendering engine-related video.

papou
09-14-2005, 01:11 PM
okay! that's nice!
the Opengl procedurals are shown fast!
You just forget to scrub at the end of the video! hehe!

That's a real improvement.

mattclary
09-14-2005, 01:12 PM
However, I believe the new dev team will give us some big impact when LW 9 released.


We will be getting a HUGE impact with 8.5, let alone 9!

Matt
09-14-2005, 01:25 PM
Wait a sec! OpenGL 2? I have a GeForce 6800 ULTRA, looking on the box it says full OpenGL 1.5 support, does this mean I'm screwed and won't have any of these features?

Please tell it's not so!

:(

KillMe
09-14-2005, 01:29 PM
argh i'm only on 5950 ultra =/

Matt
09-14-2005, 01:31 PM
Hmmmmm, looking at nVidia's website it says that 6800 ULTRA cards have full OpenGL support including v2.0.

Not sure if they're refering to the newer PCI-Express cards or whether this includes the AGPx8 card which I have.

Now I'm confused!

:confused:

Stooch
09-14-2005, 01:31 PM
argh i'm only on 5950 ultra =/OH NO! scrap the new ogl shading then!

WilliamVaughan
09-14-2005, 01:32 PM
I was confused about this as well but it works great on my Nvidia M1400 in my GoBoxx. Contact Nvidia and they will be able to tell you.

Ztreem
09-14-2005, 01:54 PM
Proton : Great video, as always.
I want to see more new features, like if the viewport updates faster with the new OpenGl rewrite? Maybe you can make a scene in 8.3 that LW only manage to play at 12 fps, then play the same scene in 8.5 and see if it's any difference.

Thanks again for the videos.

connerh
09-14-2005, 01:59 PM
Very nice, really looking forward to this release!

OGL 2.0 support is mainly driver side. I can't remember the exact version of GeForce cards that started having the shader support hardware wise, but I want to say... 5400? I know all 6x and 7x series NVidia cards support 2.0 as long as your drivers are up to date.

Intuition
09-14-2005, 02:05 PM
Pearl Harbor Sucked .....almost as much as I need 8.5.

:D

MiniFireDragon
09-14-2005, 02:10 PM
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

This will make playing with gradients and surfaces soooo much easier and funner!! I hate the old way, and can't wait for this release. I can never get the look I want having to change>render>change>render>SCREAM!>render>still no change. :(

Did I forget to say Thank You!

umstitch
09-14-2005, 02:12 PM
any card from fx5200 and up (nvidia cards that is) should be ok with the newest drivers, nvidia have only just begun supporting opengl2 in their drivers, watch for ogl v2.01 in the 80 series drivers (not recommended tho, go for the the 77.77s and youll be fine), no other ogl2 apps to test on that i know of!

MiniFireDragon
09-14-2005, 02:19 PM
Your answers to what Supports OpenGL 2.0 and the drivers u need:

http://download.nvidia.com/developer/Papers/2005/OpenGL_2.0/NVIDIA_OpenGL_2.0_Support.pdf

Direct from the source, found on their website. :) So it's lying, don't shoot the messenger!

lw3d23
09-14-2005, 02:23 PM
I just checked the opengl version by Sissoft sandra, my geforce is Fx5900XT, and sissoft sandra shows the verion is 2.0 :D

Matt
09-14-2005, 02:50 PM
Pearl Harbor Sucked .....almost as much as I need 8.5.

:D

LOL!

'Always fade out in a montage . . . . . it will seem like more time has passed if you fade out in a montage ....'

:D

RedBull
09-14-2005, 03:46 PM
Yes does it preview the procedurals stuff in Modeler too?

Kurtis
09-14-2005, 04:15 PM
Yes does it preview the procedurals stuff in Modeler too?

In this first implementation, OpenGL shaders work in Layout to display procedural textures.

Intuition
09-14-2005, 04:34 PM
LOL!

'Always fade out in a montage . . . . . it will seem like more time has passed if you fade out in a montage ....'

:D


Yeh, we need a montage right now of the beta test and gone gold process so we can have 8.5 :thumbsup:

Matt
09-14-2005, 04:36 PM
Just checked the NVIDIA_OpenGL_2.0_Support PDF and SiSoft Sandra, both say I'm OpenGL 2 compliant!

Phew! I was worried for a second there!

KillMe
09-14-2005, 05:07 PM
has the viewports in modeler seen any work? as when modeling hgh poly objects the slow down can become more tahn an annoyance - frankly proceurals in modeler would be nice but a speed imporvement is vital

Silkrooster
09-14-2005, 05:31 PM
Wow, this is so cool. I just had a chance to view the demo. This should make texturing much easier. BTW, does anyone happen to know if the ati 7500 all in wonder is gl 2 compliant?
Silk

GregMalick
09-14-2005, 06:45 PM
This is kinda cool to test your cards 2.0 GL compliance.

download site (http://www.realtech-vr.com/glview/download.html)

And of course it goes without saying that the 8.5 implementation is cool.

Gui Lo
09-14-2005, 07:15 PM
Looks great!
Is this first implementation restricted to showing the colour channel only?
i.e. no bump or shadows

Kurtis
09-14-2005, 07:25 PM
Looks great!
Is this first implementation restricted to showing the colour channel only?
i.e. no bump or shadows

At this time, yes.

DragonFist
09-14-2005, 07:41 PM
Still useful. Apply your "bumps" to the color channel to get get the size, etc. all set and bring to bump channel, tweak as needed. Still a time saver over, change, render, change, render.

ACLOBO
09-14-2005, 07:43 PM
still useful, but it kinda has the smoke and mirrors feel. I have been using lightwave for a long time and it seems we get our share of partially complete, but overhyped tools and improvements. Honestly, I was hoping for a little more open GL implementation - not just limited to the color channel.... Oh well, I guess some improvement is better than none...

-Adrian

IgnusFast
09-14-2005, 08:48 PM
In this first implementation, OpenGL shaders work in Layout to display procedural textures.

<sarcasm>Great. Because I do *all* my texturing in Layout.</sarcasm>

connerh
09-14-2005, 09:11 PM
The only texturing that really makes sense to do in modeller is UV mapping, and you can already see that in modeller... I don't see why you need to make a sarcastic statement like that. Is it such a pain in the *** and so limiting to you to have to do your texturing in the same environment that you do your animating? I mean really, it would be nice to be able to view textures in Modeller, but it isn't critical.

I also would really like to see bumps etc implemented, but still, first step in the right direction!

Titus
09-14-2005, 09:11 PM
This is a "basic" feature LW should have, good job!

DragonFist
09-14-2005, 09:26 PM
The thing to keep in mind is that this is the initial implementation. Changes to the basic nature of the two apps are coming with 9.0 and (speculation here) maybe it didn't make sense to make changes to modeler that would go out with the bath water.

Snosrap
09-14-2005, 09:31 PM
Not to sound negative, but this is not exactly what I thought the new OpenGL improvements would be all about. While this is nice, especially for users without FPrime, I was hoping for three things--- speed improvements with interactivity while animating (making previews can get old), speed improvements with SDS in modeler and better polygon selection when zoomed in to objects. Hopefully these are things that will get worked out, if not for this release than at least for 9.

Snos

IgnusFast
09-14-2005, 09:55 PM
The only texturing that really makes sense to do in modeller is UV mapping, and you can already see that in modeller... I don't see why you need to make a sarcastic statement like that. Is it such a pain in the *** and so limiting to you to have to do your texturing in the same environment that you do your animating? I mean really, it would be nice to be able to view textures in Modeller, but it isn't critical.

I also would really like to see bumps etc implemented, but still, first step in the right direction!


To be perfectly frank, yes, it is that big a pain. Would you build a model spaceship for Star Trek, then drag it to the stage before painting and detailing it? Especially a stage that's already been darkened for filming? With radiosity, you might not even have scene lights, which leaves you either guessing a lot, creating OpenGL-only lights, or creating dummy scenes just to be able to finish a model.

Sorry that I'm letting my preference for modeling show, but I would have rathered this little feature appear in Modeler *before* Layout. I still see it as a continued step in the wrong direction. More modeling ability moving to Layout, but I can't even make real lights or bones a part of my actual models.

Lude
09-15-2005, 01:43 AM
Well im dam happy it's in there, think it will save loads of time. And again might be nice in modeler but by no means a show stoper that it isn't.

Now what else you got for us :D

Roundpixel
09-15-2005, 01:58 AM
Hi,

Excellent news, canīt wait for 8.5. :beerchug:

Just a question. Will this allow to see procedurals from external sources, i mean things like Simbiont or IFW Textures?

thanks
JC

Gui Lo
09-15-2005, 03:32 AM
For in camera surfacing I use fprime and this only works in Layout.

This is a great addition because it updates so quickly and(I hope) shows in previews. I guess there will be more channels added in future, as Kurt hinted.

I certainly prefer this channel by channel, app by app approach rather than having to wait a long time for the whole thing.

digital verve
09-15-2005, 05:49 AM
It is good that Newtek are giving us these opengl improvements now (a taste of the future). Allows us to give them constructive feedback for them to consider, as they prepare the enhanced versions for LW9.

Will we see significant speed improvements in Modeler OGL viewports in 8.5???

mattclary
09-15-2005, 06:15 AM
You poor b*stards at Newtek. No matter what you do, it's just never quite good enough, is it?

All you dillweeds :devil: who are complaining, just be freaking patient. Rome was not built in a day. Seriously, just give it a rest.

JML
09-15-2005, 07:16 AM
:eek: I'm really impress,

I knew it could show the procedural , but I did not know you could use it with the gradient tool and use more than one.. (I thought it was going to preview only the selected procedural)
really great !

we are near the end of Q3 2005, so 8.5 should come out soon :)

excelent job newtek ! :thumbsup:

Emmanuel
09-15-2005, 08:25 AM
@mattclary:
This is LW 8.5, and basically the first real update to LW OpenGL since 4 or 5 years, while other apps had these features for a long, long time (for DirectX, too).
No need to cheer or anything, its not like NT has invented openGL 2 or something, its rather an important area to catch up, and if You wtch demos for graphics cards and behold what has been possible 2 years ago (realtime HDRI for example, shadows, normal maps etc...), then NT has a long, long way to go.
Besides that I would rather see VIPER be updated so that it supports everything You can render (transparency for example), because I am not using the OpenGL as apreviewer other than for the most basic things.
VIPER's the way to go, not OpenGL.
I wouldn't even consider this something to advertise with at this point.
But as I said, to me this is one of the minor improvements to LW.
If You try to playbakc the MM_Martian scene that comes with LW, You'll see where the true problem is....;)

mattclary
09-15-2005, 08:38 AM
@mattclary:
This is LW 8.5, and basically the first real update to LW OpenGL since 4 or 5 years, while other apps had these features for a long, long time (for DirectX, too).
No need to cheer or anything, its not like NT has invented openGL 2 or something, its rather an important area to catch up, and if You wtch demos for graphics cards and behold what has been possible 2 years ago (realtime HDRI for example, shadows, normal maps etc...), then NT has a long, long way to go.
Besides that I would rather see VIPER be updated so that it supports everything You can render (transparency for example), because I am not using the OpenGL as apreviewer other than for the most basic things.
VIPER's the way to go, not OpenGL.
I wouldn't even consider this something to advertise with at this point.
But as I said, to me this is one of the minor improvements to LW.
If You try to playbakc the MM_Martian scene that comes with LW, You'll see where the true problem is....;)


Dude, I will be the FIRST person to complain about how much OpenGL sucks in LightWave, I fully acknowledge they are behind most other companies. The thing is, there is a REASON they are behind, and they are doing EVERYTHING in their power to catch up.

IMO, they are doing a very good job of catching up. I have every confidence that Newtek will once again be a true leader in the field. I just get tired of everyone complaining about how these improvements are not good enough.

If it's not enough or soon enough, go buy another app. It's just that simple.

<insert response about how pipeline is geared to LightWave and you can't switch easily>

Yeah, it really is, because whining about the state of affairs is not going to speed up anyone's production any more that switching apps, and that doesn't seem to be a stumbling block for them.

Earl
09-15-2005, 08:51 AM
You know guys, this demo video was only supposed to show the procedural color channels showing up in OGL. Just because Proton didn't go out and say "oh and another cool new feature is the raw speed increase" doesn't mean that the speed increases with 8.5's OGL isn't there. NewTek has already stated that drawing performance in 8.5 will be much faster than it was previously. So, given that they rewrote the display code to take advantage of modern video cards, if procedurals only show up in color channel in layout for this first public appearance I think that's perfectly acceptable (especially for a free update). It only means that they'll be building more into it for version 9. :lwicon: :cool:


For the 8.5 release, the older internal drawing routines were replaced with a new OpenGL system that supports the OpenGL 2 standard and uses the functions now available in hardware to provide much faster performance.

Matt
09-15-2005, 09:16 AM
Well I think it's cool Proton!

;)

Kurtis
09-15-2005, 09:21 AM
This is a great addition because it updates so quickly and(I hope) shows in previews. I guess there will be more channels added in future, as Kurt hinted.

Yes, procedural textrues will show in a preview through OpenGL shaders.

pauland
09-15-2005, 09:59 AM
"Thumbs up" Proton - keep up the good work.

Newtek can advertise this stuff to me all they like, thank you very much.

Paul

Kurtis
09-15-2005, 01:51 PM
Just a question. Will this allow to see procedurals from external sources, i mean things like Simbiont or IFW Textures?

Third-party procedurals will need to be reconfigured to work with the OpenGL shaders, but publishers will be able to get the information they need to do this from us.

Kurtis
09-15-2005, 01:53 PM
In addition to the OpenGL shaders in Layout, version 8.5 will introduce general speed and display improvements with OpenGL in Layout.

Improvements in Modeler, in both OpenGL speed and display, are being worked on for the future as well.

KillMe
09-15-2005, 02:36 PM
does that mean that 8.5 wont see any change in teh opengl in modeler?? :cry:

Kurtis
09-15-2005, 03:03 PM
Not in 8.5.

Modeler has not been ignored. We needed to start somewhere, and customer feedback told us it should start in Layout.

Like I said earlier, this is the first implementation, not the final one. We want to get you as much as we can as soon as we can.

Emmanuel
09-15-2005, 03:10 PM
That's for me the proof that NT is serious about it, they promised shorter update cycles, they deliver shorter update cycles.
I just hope that eventually Layout and Modeler will use the same OpenGL base and be uniform throughout.
It just doesn't make sense to have different display options for either.

Kurtis
09-15-2005, 03:18 PM
I just hope that eventually Layout and Modeler will use the same OpenGL base and be uniform throughout.

That's the plan. :thumbsup:

Earl
09-15-2005, 09:26 PM
Thanks for all the great info Kurtis! It's really nice that you guys are so candid about LW and the plans you have for it. :newtek: :thumbsup:

T-Light
09-16-2005, 02:59 AM
Earl-

Thanks for all the great info Kurtis! It's really nice that you guys are so candid about LW and the plans you have for it.
Agreed.
These last few days have been amazing, Proton's posted new videos, Kurtis has been there to explain the finer the points and Chuck has been popping in for a cup of tea, a biscuit and a chat.
Brilliant, great work guys. :)

gerry_g
09-16-2005, 06:25 AM
Rats!!..........can play all the other streams but this one obstinately refuses to load/download, anyone else getting this.......

mattclary
09-16-2005, 06:48 AM
Right Click > Save Target As doesn't work for you? If that isn't working, it's just a connection issue.

gerry_g
09-16-2005, 08:29 AM
Right Click > Save Target As doesn't work for you? If that isn't working, it's just a connection issue.

Yeah, I kind o’ figured this, but then I thought what the ****'s the point in having posting privileges if you don't abuse them every once in a while..........................feed the rabble within!!

Kurtis
09-16-2005, 03:01 PM
This is one of those times when I enjoy needing to correct myself.

In version 8.5, in Layout, OpenGL shaders will assist in the following surface channels:

Color
Luminosity
Diffuse
Specular
Transparency

Thought you all might like to know. :D

Earl
09-16-2005, 03:06 PM
Ooooh! Ahhhh!

:bowdown:

JML
09-16-2005, 03:10 PM
very nice, and just to make sure I understood,
the other surface channel (bump for example) will come in lw9 ?

Kurtis
09-16-2005, 03:29 PM
I'm not going to make any timeframe guarantees on behalf of Development at this time, but I can tell you that Bump in Layout and all in Modeler are on their "To Do" list.

JML
09-16-2005, 04:05 PM
that's fine,

I just asked because I was wondering after seeing the LW9 features list,
it says "LightWave 9.0 fully supports the Open GL 2.0 specification, leveraging the power of the...."

and now I see 8.5 will have openGL 2 support, I was just wondering what will LW9 have more than 8.5 in openGL features..

Knight Chat X
10-03-2005, 12:28 AM
That is pretty cool. :thumbsup:

I think NewTek is definately heading in the right direction now, taking advantage of the new capabilities to make development simpler and quicker, weither OpenGL and/or DirectX whatever works and brings out the results.

Starting to get excited about the next versions.

ACLOBO
10-03-2005, 01:16 AM
now this has me a little excited! When it was first posted that the new openGL implementation would only take advantage of the Color channel, I thought, well.. At least it is a start, but not terribly useful. With these other channels in there, we are all but there! :-) Congrats to the dev team on getting this into 8.5.

Now I am really looking forward to this new week. :thumbsup:

-Adrian

Captain Obvious
10-03-2005, 04:30 AM
Will texture mapped things require GLSL? I would love to see bump and specular in Modeler, even if it was just UV mapped textures.