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WilliamVaughan
09-13-2005, 12:55 PM
MultiShift Demo
Modeler Tool

This demo shows off the new modeler tool, MultiShift. Learn some of the cool features like the ability to stor and re-use profiles.

Length: 3:37 min
Size: 16 mb


Click Here for Demo (ftp://ftp.newtek.com/pub/LightWave/Tutorials/Vidz/multishift.mov)

Lewis
09-13-2005, 01:51 PM
Hi proton !

I watched this video and i can say i LIKE this tool very much so far :). I just hope it's STABLE on hi-polycount objects :)?

Now we can forget about smoothshift tool but what about bevel tool ? Can we use multyshift for indivuidal polygons (like bevel works) or just as group as seen in this video ? I think that "multi shift mode" is for swiching on/off to work like current bevel (per single polygon) or whole polygon group at once but i'd still like confirmation :). If that's the case then we can forget about bevel also ;).

thanks for video.

philthorn
09-13-2005, 02:01 PM
Very cool!

Question: Is the stored macro using a percentage based shift or a numeric value? In other words, if I have a 10 mm quad and multi-shift it up 10 mm to make a cube, store it then apply this to a 30 mm quad will the shift be 10 mm up or 30 mm (100%)? Looking at the demo I would assume that it's storing the values we see cycling at the top of the form.

Keep 'em comin' Proton! Great Job!

-Phil

Kurtis
09-13-2005, 02:01 PM
Now we can forget about smoothshift tool but what about bevel tool ? Can we use multyshift for indivuidal polygons (like bevel works) or just as group as seen in this video ? I think that "multi shift mode" is for swiching on/off to work like current bevel (per single polygon) or whole polygon group at once but i'd still like confirmation :). If that's the case then we can forget about bevel also ;).

The new MultiShift tool will work on a single polygon, or a group of polygons,
whatever is selected.

Lewis
09-13-2005, 02:05 PM
Just one more question about this new tool :)

I notced those nice blue outlines/markers of current editing shift number but i wonder why is there always visible FIRST (#0) shift starting point ? Isn't that little confusing in certian rotating angles when they are on top of each other ? Why not just current editing outline visible ? I'm not complaining 'coz tool is looking extremly useful but since 8.5 is not out yet maybe programmers can change that or make option (if it somehow needs to be used in some situation what i can't reach now) on/off for first (#0) polygon/outline :).

Thanks

Kurtis
09-13-2005, 02:06 PM
Question: Is the stored macro using a percentage based shift or a numeric value? In other words, if I have a 10 mm quad and multi-shift it up 10 mm to make a cube, store it then apply this to a 30 mm quad will the shift be 10 mm up or 30 mm (100%)? Looking at the demo I would assume that it's storing the values we see cycling at the top of the form.

It is numeric based. A saved bevel of 1m is going to be 1m when loaded and applied to another surface, regardless of its size. However, you can change the dimensions once loaded.

Kurtis
09-13-2005, 02:16 PM
I notced those nice blue outlines/markers of current editing shift number but i wonder why is there always visible FIRST (#0) shift starting point ? Isn't that little confusing in certian rotating angles when they are on top of each other ? Why not just current editing outline visible ? I'm not complaining 'coz tool is looking extremly useful but since 8.5 is not out yet maybe programmers can change that or make option (if it somehow needs to be used in some situation what i can't reach now) on/off for first (#0) polygon/outline :).

Lewis,

I see what you're saying. This is the first implementation of this tool, and with all such tools, I'm sure it will be refined over time with suggestions such as yours. Please feel free to submit your idea as a feature request to [email protected]

Lewis
09-13-2005, 02:22 PM
The new MultiShift tool will work on a single polygon, or a group of polygons,
whatever is selected.

Thanks Kurtis for that confirmation :). I suspected that would be the case but proton was focused on multy option so he forgot to mention it can be used for single mode also - grat :).

That definately looks like real consodilation of tools (as promised for NextGen LW) and this really "merged" bevel, smoothisft AND super shift - AFAIK these all do similar things and this "multyshift" could be called Bevel PRO (like bandsaw pro ;)) and we can delete all other three from keyboard shortcuts and layout (atleast for me they won't have any usage after this baby lands on my HDD ;))

Thanks to NT team I really aplaude for this kind of work, now lets move on next batch of tools and UNIFY them on similar way ;) (CUT tool and Bandsaw tool could be unified in one smarter tool IMHO - BandsawPro 2 :) :) )

cheers

Lewis
09-13-2005, 02:26 PM
Lewis,

I see what you're saying. This is the first implementation of this tool, and with all such tools, I'm sure it will be refined over time with suggestions such as yours. Please feel free to submit your idea as a feature request to [email protected]

I will, as soon I test it on my machine. Maybe when I start to using it I'll get idea whay is it good to have it :). If I don't "reach" it's usability i'll definatelly send suggestion to NT for removing that first outline row for less cluttered work ;).

Thanks

Scott_Blinn
09-13-2005, 02:27 PM
Great little tool!

It would be cool if Rounder could get this type of thing. Then I could store things like different "pillar bases" that I like and use them in the future the same way as this tool.

Anyway, great work. I hope to see many more v8.5 videos, including v8.5 itself released, in the near future! :thumbsup:

--SB

WilliamVaughan
09-13-2005, 02:29 PM
Thanx for the quick feedback Kurtis....you beat me to it....I plan to do more demos with Multishift to show off more of it's features....as well as other cool items in 8.5

hrgiger
09-13-2005, 02:35 PM
This seems like it will be useful. Thanks for the demo.

Limbus
09-13-2005, 02:38 PM
Nice one. I also have a question: can I choose if the tools works like bevel or smooth shift if I select polys that share an edge?

Florian

Lewis
09-13-2005, 02:45 PM
Nice one. I also have a question: can I choose if the tools works like bevel or smooth shift if I select polys that share an edge?

Florian


Hmm - Isn't that SAME what I asked and Kurtis answered/confirmed :)?

Limbus
09-13-2005, 03:10 PM
I should read the whole thread before posting :-)

Meaty
09-13-2005, 03:26 PM
You all know what this means, right? [8.5] is JUST around the corner!!!!!
:lwicon:

Ztreem
09-13-2005, 03:39 PM
Nice video showing a great feature, thanks Proton! Now I want 8.5 even more...

DragonFist
09-13-2005, 04:39 PM
Hmm - Isn't that SAME what I asked and Kurtis answered/confirmed :)?

I am not so sure that Kurtis' answer really answered the question. Forgive me if I am wrong. But as I read his answer, it means that if I select one poly, it will work on one poly. If I select two, it will work on two. It doesn't say whether it will treat the polies as seperate(bevel) or as one whole(smooth shift).

Kurtis, could you clarify what you meant by "The new MultiShift tool will work on a single polygon, or a group of polygons, whatever is selected."

I am not trying to bust chops here. I just think that your answer may be being misinterpreted. Of course, if I am wrong, great, this tool is even more powerful than I thought.

Kurtis
09-13-2005, 04:47 PM
Just to be safe, I'll answer this two ways.

First, the tool can be used to bevel/shift one polygon at a time, or multiple polygons at a time, as a group of adjacent polygons, or as a group of non-adjacent polygons.

Second, the tool will treat an individually MultiShifted polygon as the Bevel tool currently does, as one polygon. It will treat a group of MultiShifted polygons as a group, as the SmoothShift tool does, as a group.

DragonFist
09-13-2005, 04:57 PM
So, if I select three polygons that share edges, Multi-shift will shift them as smoothshift does. I would have to select them individually to affect them like a bevel. Am I on the right track?

In fact, just realized, makes little difference. If I got it right, it isn't a problem because you can always save a shift and repeat it on the other polies individually with little extra time.

maxxwv
09-13-2005, 05:00 PM
So Kurtis - not to belabor the point, but just to make sure - If I select two adjacent polygons and use the MultiShift tool, I don't have an option to treat each of the adjacent polygons as a separate entity (bevel) - it simply works on both polys as a group (smooth shift). Correct?

*oops... DragonFist beat me to it! What he said, basically... :D *

KillMe
09-13-2005, 05:33 PM
yeaha toggle for grouped adn invidual polys would be great - throw in an anti overlap and your really in buisness - bevel ++ has nice implimentation of these features

anyway looks lieka great tool cant wait

Silkrooster
09-13-2005, 05:37 PM
Excellent tool, I beleive this will be a great advantage to most if not all users. One quick question though, the quick save/restore is that a temporary save/restore meaning once lightwave has been shut down the save results are no longer available or can be they be used the next time lightwave starts?
Silk

DragonFist
09-13-2005, 05:43 PM
I can answer that one. I played with it at siggraph. quick saves are lost when LW closes.

Lewis
09-13-2005, 05:58 PM
Proton SAID that Quick save is only TEMP in memory (so it's lost after closing LW or saving new temp) but i don't see a problem 'coz you can SAVE to FILE also for later use if you find it useful :).

And yes DragonFist - Kurtis did answered to my question and your basically but maybe i didn't ask it right so you thought that answer could be confusing :). If you look video AGAIN you'll see that multishift button - that's what i was asking about and from what I understand if you turn it off you have BEVEL like tool and if you turn it on you have Super Shift/smooth shift way and it works on all selections (with shared edges and without)

To make it short - IT can replace Bevel, Smothsift and Supershift and adds extra functionality ;).

cheers

KillMe
09-13-2005, 06:00 PM
if it can replace them all why not do so? woudl help the cluttered interface some to be down to 1 bevel tool

Lewis
09-13-2005, 06:07 PM
if it can replace them all why not do so? woudl help the cluttered interface some to be down to 1 bevel tool

Nobody says we can't change interface and shotrcuts - RIGHT :)

I definately wouldn't "kill "old tools , I'd just make new shortcuts and put old tools under "more" at modeler interface :). Easy and simple.

cheers

DragonFist
09-13-2005, 06:08 PM
To make it short - IT can replace Bevel, Smothsift and Supershift and adds extra functionality ;).

This is the part that is unclear to me. And my understanding of it is that it is NOT a direct replacement for bevel because it does not operate like bevel. I may be wrong. And I am sorry if I am making a big deal out of nothing. But my understanding of what has been said, is not the way you are looking at it.

I am happy to be wrong on this. It looks to me to be a direct replacement of Supershift with a multi history and history save. As I said earlier though, even if this is the case, it is fine with me because one can always select one poly, do your shifts and then quick save. Then quick restore on the other polies that one would want to "bevel" individually.

Anyhow, this is all I want to clear up. For two reasons: 1) So that I am sure that I understand it correctly. 2) So that, if I am right, noone is later upset because "Kurtis said...." when he really didn't.

Best,

Shawn

Lewis
09-13-2005, 06:17 PM
I didn't said It replaces Bevel on interface or tool wise ('coz i don't know so i can't say for sure) but i don't see what's not celar :). I sad it will replace them FOR ME and it will replace all three tools i mentioned. From what i saw it can do all what can do bevel or supershift (smootshift is only weaker version of supershift anway) so i don't see what's not celar ? Bevel also works with LMB and RMB clicks but it can't bevel multiple polys as SINGLE group (it bevels each poly on it's own while multyshift can do both).

But please don't make big fuss about this. Lw 8.5 should be finsihed soon (NT said by end of Q3) so let's we all see how it works and then we can discuss all options of this "multishift" tool.

cheers and sorry if i said something wrong what is confusing you or anyone else.

DragonFist
09-13-2005, 06:24 PM
(it bevels each poly on it's own while multyshift can do both).

This is what is not clear to me from the answer. His answer does NOT seem to say this to me. I know that you didn't mean it will replace it on the menu. It is whether or not Multi-shift will function in the way that bevel does on multiple, shared edge polygons. From what I understand of Kurtis' answers, it does not. But it does seem clear that you believe it does.

I am not saying that you are wrong. I am only being very cautious about it as it SEEMS to me that you might be on this point. Which ever way it is, I just want to make sure it is clear. Because, at least to me, it is not. And I am truly sorry for wasting thread space if I am completely off on this. As I may be.

fyrissian
09-13-2005, 07:06 PM
Thanks for the demo, Proton. Multi-Shift looks great! :thumbsup: Want it NOW!!!!

digital verve
09-13-2005, 07:17 PM
I am impressed. :)

Kurtis
09-13-2005, 08:07 PM
I'm going to try this one more time. If it's still not clear, I guess I need to leave it until v8.5 is released, because I seem to be making the issue less clear, rather than more.

With multiple adjoining polygons selected, using the MultiShift tool, you can both inset and shift the polygons as a group. This works in the same manner as the bevel tool, as far as being able to expand or contract and extrude or depress, but it also works in the same manner as the SuperShift tool in that it treats all the selected poygons as a group, rather than individual polygons.

If multiple non-adjoining polygons are selected, each individual polygon will be treated the same way as if you were using the bevel tool, but with the addition of multiple operations in one session, and saveable/loadable histories.

Silkrooster
09-13-2005, 08:23 PM
I still see this as a great start at making the tools more interactive. Keep up the excellent work everyone.
Silk

DragonFist
09-13-2005, 08:26 PM
"as far as being able to expand or contract and extrude or depress"

I am sorry Kurtis; but this is the point that is unclear.
The simple question is, if you select 2 or 3 polygons that share edges, can this tool bevel each polygon seperately just like bevel does?

Edit: I added some screens. Would Multishift handle polygons as in Option A, Option B, or both?

Chuck
09-13-2005, 08:29 PM
Clearly, we're going to need a few more videos, Proton... :D

Seriously speaking, I just got my first whack at using this tool today, so I'm not fully familiar with it by any means, but from what I have seen so far I suspect there's a reason that it's called MultiShift, and that the v8.5 version of MultiShift is going to treat a selection of adjacent polys as one unit rather than as three separate units. Further developments are planned for down the line, so who knows what the future may hold...but for now I think the answer is option B...(I may find out differently tomorrow, though! :) )

DragonFist
09-13-2005, 08:33 PM
Chuck beat my edit. :)

Kurtis
09-13-2005, 08:40 PM
At this time, option B, not option A.

Feel free to send that in as a feature request ([email protected]).

DragonFist
09-13-2005, 08:54 PM
Thanks, Kurtis. That totally clears it up for me. Once again, sorry for the dragged out Q&A, but I think it was being taken as being option A and B. Better to have it clear now.

Kurtis
09-13-2005, 08:56 PM
Just glad I was finally able to answer your question. :thumbsup:

toma
09-14-2005, 04:55 AM
Will it be possible to apply a new material to the inset polygons like with the bevel tool ? (I use that a lot) ;)

toma.

WilliamVaughan
09-14-2005, 05:46 AM
I hope this new video helps clear up someof the confusion as well as show off just how powerful it is to be able to save and reuse profiles.

MultiShift Profile Examples (ftp://ftp.newtek.com/pub/LightWave/Tutorials/Vidz/Profiles.mov)

Side Note: I'm still trying to get my new system to have the best audio as possible....sooo many settings to adjust...any feedback on audio quality would be appreciated.

-EsHrA-
09-14-2005, 05:57 AM
thnx 4 tha vidz, proton!

multishift.mov : the audio is pretty good although very saturated and loud, so i suggest decreasing incoming mic volume and your ready to go ! :)

profiles.mov : yup, much beter, maybe a bitt hissy but thats nitpicking coz volume and loudness is ok now.

Kurtis
09-14-2005, 06:10 AM
Will it be possible to apply a new material to the inset polygons like with the bevel tool ? (I use that a lot) ;)

Not at this time.

WilliamVaughan
09-14-2005, 06:44 AM
thnx 4 tha vidz, proton!

multishift.mov : the audio is pretty good although very saturated and loud, so i suggest decreasing incoming mic volume and your ready to go ! :)

profiles.mov : yup, much beter, maybe a bitt hissy but thats nitpicking coz volume and loudness is ok now.


Thanx for feedback...trying to perfect it soon so I can spend more time making movies andless time playing with audio settings :)

Dodgy
09-14-2005, 07:47 AM
Why is the profile saved as a separate file? Why not use the Presets shelf? This is what Bevel++ does, and it works very well...

Karmacop
09-14-2005, 09:24 AM
I'm with Dodgy, using the preset panel would be much faster than loading and saving, and you'd also be able to see what the shift looked like.

WilliamVaughan
09-14-2005, 10:01 AM
That was top of my list when I first use dthe tool...

Karmacop
09-14-2005, 10:13 AM
Well we obviously need to get you a whip that is long enough to reach the developers from your workspace :D

T-Light
09-14-2005, 01:22 PM
Thanks for the videos Proton:)

and on another note...
Proton

I plan to do more demos with Multishift to show off more of it's features....as well as other cool items in 8.5
More cool items please :thumbsup:

WilliamVaughan
09-14-2005, 01:39 PM
http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?t=40609

mav3rick
09-14-2005, 03:12 PM
proton just a tip
what will happen if u select HAND FINGER POLIGONS and instead store and restore for each finger u actually select polygons hit unveld (ctrl +u) to unveld them throw load preset on them and if plugin work as i think should work you should get each finger as own group rather than all together as one:) what i mean you could save time of sore restore if unveld makes unconnected polygons

man i hacked your tool without eaven used it:P lol i hope so

WilliamVaughan
09-14-2005, 05:06 PM
That would work but I thought by repeating the steps everyone would walk away knowing how it all works ;)

Snosrap
09-14-2005, 09:08 PM
This looks like a nice bevel/smooth shift tool Proton, but why not add a button to treat selected polys as a group (Smooth Shift/Super Shift) or individually (Bevel). If this were the case it looks like this tool could replace 3 current tools. Even though the finger demo showed how nice it is to have stored profiles for repeating steps, it still would be a better tool if it could have done all 4 individual fingers at once.

Keep up the good work.
Snos

WilliamVaughan
09-14-2005, 09:26 PM
I'm all for it!

colkai
09-15-2005, 03:32 AM
I'm going to try this one more time. If it's still not clear, I guess I need to leave it until v8.5 is released, because I seem to be making the issue less clear, rather than more.
Seems pretty clear to me Kurtis, though a cool checkbox on the numeric interface would be to allow the user to choose either 'group as one' or 'group as individuals' in a similar manner to Vertibevel. Of course, if it already has that and I missed it, apologies. :foreheads
edit: Arrgghhh, serves ne right for not reading the whole thread before replying. Well, at least we are all thinking the same :p

Limbus
09-15-2005, 05:13 AM
A bevel from curve function would be a nice addition. Just look at how Vertibevel and Bevel++ work.

Emmanuel
09-16-2005, 03:30 AM
Well, since the future is bright and open, and NT stated that they intend to clean up modeler to provide less tools with more functionality, I guess the question is: should shift and bevel operations be integrated into one all-purpose-tool, similiar to what is available for move and rotate as the "Rove" tool ?
Is it GUI and workflow-wise better to have two dedicated tools for specific tasks or to have one tool You need to configure one way for that specific task and the other for another task ?

spigolo
09-16-2005, 06:05 AM
Very nice tool! And with some sort of history too..

Anyway there is an interface improvements that will speed up workflow very much that I don't understand why no one mentions it, I'had been asking it since a long time.

I make an example related to this tool: After I saved a Profile in the quick store it could happen that I have to close that tool for some reason, few step later I need to reapply the same profile to another polygon (or the same settings if it was onother tool) and here we are:

In lw I have to click the button related to this tool and then after that the interface opens I clik again to reaply the modeling operation.

Why it is not possible that every modeling operation stores it's latest settings so that I can reapply them just recalling them for ex. clikking with the middle mouse button over their button??(like in XSI?)

Tipical example:
In Lw if I have to subdivide many times an object I have to clik to subdive than answer to what kind of subdivision I need and then If I want to reapply another subdivision I have to do the same process, this is crazy!!
It' s always embarassing when I show this to my friends who uses other applications...

I hope that in version 9 we will see also this kind of little improvements that makes software usability and workflow apleasure...

Sorry maybe this wasn't the right thread but It's years that I wait for this little but worthless details...

Anyway I'm very happy for what I'm seeing from the new developement stuff..

Nemoid
09-16-2005, 08:10 AM
i think the feature you're asking for is more a core feature which requires for commands to be stored into a stack that memorizes last command. this for every action done in lw.
i don't think this is impossible to implement, only tha's a core - general feature. so, for this tool some improvement could be used with a drop down list of recent profiles, or the ability for some shortcut assign af commands , but not a repeat last command feature.

I could be wrong tho, since Nt dev teams do marvels recently.but as i sai i see this feature as a core general one