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drc40
08-31-2005, 10:19 AM
We have just upgraded our outdated production truck with the new VT4 system. We primarily use this truck for sporting events and typically use 3 live cameras.

We are 100% newbies to VT so this question may have already been addressed elsewhere even though I searched the forums I couldnt find exactly what I was looking for.

What we want to do is record all 3 cameras at once so we may select the camera we desire for the replay footage. I understand that VT itself may not capable of this but is this scenario possible and if it is, we need to implement it with the most economical solution. Can we route all 3 cameras through 3 DVR's and then output that to the RS8? That way we can decide what camera footage we want to use for the replay instead of being limited to only replaying the main/program source.

This may be far to simplified a question but any feedback or pointers would be helpful. Thank you in advance.

mikkowilson
08-31-2005, 10:49 AM
Yes, to do a camera specific replay, you will need to record each camera's feed.
The VT can't do thisso you'll need DVRs, or (gasp) decks. - There's a couple of DVRs out there that shoudl work prety good.
Generally the Reversae angle camera, and a wide angle camera that woudl always have every peice of action are teh prioreties for instant replay.

- Best of all would be a replay system where you only have one controller for all the decks and they'd run in snc, that way you can shuttle back and forth and switch between cameras as you do. Though sometimes it's nicer to play one replay then cut to teh begingin of another.


- Mikko

vanderwielen
08-31-2005, 07:19 PM
multiple panasonic show stopper replay decks are the only, economical way to go. we have 5 on 5 live cameras. they dont require a subscription. search ebay for panasonic showstopper. one remote runs them all. you'll need video distribution amps ahead of the toaster.

kleima
08-31-2005, 09:15 PM
Many of Panasonic's DVD recorders also have a feature that allow you to play from what has been recorded while continuing to record. Such as the DMR-T2020. I have never used the feature for the use you suggest, so I don't know how well it would work, but I'm sure it could do it.

kltv
09-01-2005, 01:34 AM
We use a combination of Panasonic ShowStopper DVRs and DDR records. We have two ShowStoppers recording two of our four cameras as backups.

Our primary replay source has been a DDR recording "Main In" from the switcher. That will record whatever source you are on minus any downstream keys and effects. If you open a DDR and click the Rec button from there, it will open a capture window. If you start a record in that capture window, then stop or chop it, the clip will load into the DDR. Double click FF to jump to the end of the clip, then back roll it until you are cued and wipe to the DDR. You can also do pretty nice slow motion this way. You have to be fast and practice the DDR method if you want to do it that way. It is easier with VT[4], since it has preview windows in the DDR. That way you don't have to put it in preview while you are trying to cue it. You could also record "Preview In" at the same time giving you two possible DDR sources, but we found that to be a little too much to try and keep track of on one machine. We use this DDR method for probably 90% of our replays.

You can see an example of these replays in action at mms://streamer.newtek.com/VT%5B4%5D/Features/KLTV_World_Series.wmv and a longer sampling of clips at http://www.gurrad.com/kris/BabeRuthClips2.wmv

All those replays were done using the DDR method inside the VT. The video also looks a whole let better out of direct DDR record than it will from the ShowStopper.

Of course, you had to be on the right camera when the action happened to get that to work, so as a backup we sent our two primary action cameras to ShowStoppers. Those are wired as two seperate inputs on the VT switcher. We also found that for baseball we could basically leave the two ShowStoppers running about 10-15 seconds behind live video. Once the play was finished the ShowStoppers would be just be getting to the play, so we could just wipe to them, rather than fumbling with the remote to try and cue them. Basketball is a little tougher since they don't linger between any action for very long.

Both replay methods work well, but take some practice.

Kris

drc40
09-01-2005, 06:35 AM
Thanks for the replies everyone. I really appreciate it.

I've done a little more looking around and did find a couple other topics that pretty much echo'ed whats being said here. I find this feature as one that is lacking in VT though. Not being able to capture each camera feed independantly is a big draw back for our use which is why I need to find an alternate method. VT could make a huge improvment to their system with a feature like this.

It looks like the Panasonics are the only solution since I havent found a reasonably priced PVR that doesnt include subscription or phone line requirements.

vanderwielen: When you say one remote controls them all, how is that? Do you use the remote to pause live feed and rewind for the instant replay and all decks rewind at the same time? Someone has to be on the ball to pull that off time and time again I would think. :)

Kltv: The DDR method is what we are using now for replay. The biggest drawback is the fact we can not get replay from the secondary cameras and after our first production found that to be a big missing component of using VT. Many times we had great angles and footage from the secondary cams for another shot of the replay but no way to capture it and use them.

drc40
09-01-2005, 07:17 AM
vanderwielen: One more thing. You say if you use a showstopper you will need a DA before the toaster. I was thinking the connection chain would be something like this:

camera--->showstopper---->sx8 but instead you are saying I need a DA between the showstopper and the sx8?

PIZAZZ
09-01-2005, 08:46 AM
Best bet would be to use multiple VT systems.

One system to be the master with an SX84 and 3 or more systems to ISO the individual cameras.

Figure to budget around $12-15K for the primary system and $6500 for each ISO position.

Now before you all complain about the expense... Look at it this way.

You could build a HDV/Component format setup for under 100K that does much of the same as a 1+ million dollar OB truck from ESPN. Then charge accordingly and make some real money with it.

drc40
09-01-2005, 09:30 AM
Unfortunately thats isnt an option for us Jef. We are a free TV community group with no income and dont have any prospects in the future to generate income. All our resources are drawn from donations and we just spent 25K redoing the truck and adding VT4. We dont have another 10K laying around to spend.

mikkowilson
09-01-2005, 12:47 PM
Aah again the fact that VT only has a 2 channel Frame sync and A/D ..there's never more than 2 cameras in teh VT (the busses) so it'd be imposisbel to capture anything else.

As for teh DA:in.. you'd want to avoid having the normal live feed go through the DVR.. you run teh risk of getting OSD data there..
You'd DA the camera signal and send one feed direct to the SX1 (say input 1) and the other feed to the DVR, then the SX8 (say input 5) this woudl give you cam1 live on 1 and cam1 replay on 5. - simple, flexible and effective.

- Mikko

PIZAZZ
09-01-2005, 02:47 PM
Aah again the fact that VT only has a 2 channel Frame sync and A/D ..there's never more than 2 cameras in teh VT (the busses) so it'd be imposisbel to capture anything else.


True but not exactly. VT can also capture a DV stream at the same time as the 2 input channels in Main and Pre. Some adventuresome people have put multiple firewire cards into a system and captured multiple firewire DV streams at a time. Actually I think 3 or 4 streams.

It can be done but not the most elegant way. No one in a live production wants to count on those crazy small 4 pin firewire connectors and cables staying put. (Much less over 150' runs)


One other solution would be to use the Focus Enhancements Firestore systems. I am not sure about their slo mo quality but it would be easy to implement.

mikkowilson
09-02-2005, 03:13 PM
Good point about DV Pizazz... My bad.

..Don't go firestore, they are more trouble then they are worth. ..and actually they are dooign the exact same thign as DV record in VT.. but with nothign but Firewire connectorrs for I/O

- Mikko

vanderwielen
09-03-2005, 08:42 PM
Here's more about using the panasonic replay showstoppers, but first let me clarify the DA issue. you need the DA ahead of the toaster and the panasonic decks to split your video feed. we use a combination of Y/C and camplex (which is composite) so we have a rack of various types of DA. the output of the showstopper is simply a composite input to the toaster.

now for the hardware configuration, which i think others using showstoppers will find interesting.

we use 6 - 9" JVC color monitors that have remote A/B video inputs on the back. control of the inputs is via a foot switch. don't press the foot switch and you see 6 live cameras. press the foot switch and you see the output of the 6 show stopper replay decks. why we do this is explained later.

We've also installed an IR receiver and repeater system that has 1 IR eye into a distribution block and 4 IR emitters out of it. i think we got it from smarthome.com. the emitters are taped directly over the IR eye on the front of 4 of the showstoppers. no big trick here, but since our decks are located around the trailer, it simplifies where to shoot the remote. (at the single receiver)

we've designed a relay switching system with 4 momentary pushbuttons on it. if no button is pressed, the IR is sent to all the decks. if ANY ONE pushbutton is pressed, the IR is sent to ONLY THAT showstopper. (this is also a handy way of selecting inputs and controlling just one deck's menu system)

Let me tie this all together using football as an example:

The quarterback walks up to the line. We've got the footswitch down so we're watching the showstopper's output which is inherently delayed about 1 second. As the quarterback reaches up under the center we press 'pause'. All the showstoppers freeze. We release the footswitch and all 6 monitors revert to LIVE camera feeds. The play occurs. The Replay tech and director decide which of the 6 cameras has the best replay. The replay tech presses the footswitch again reverting to seeing the frozen picture on the decks, then, using the remote releases the best camera shot, slips it into slight slow motion, calls out replay on 14, the director cues 14 and transitions the replay to air. (just a side-note: these 6 monitors are not the directors primary preview monitors. He has 6 - 4" LCD rack mounts about his VT monitor.)

Often, there are 2 replays from 2 cameras which was want to bring back to air. The replay tech presses on of the buttons on the 4 channel corresponding to the first replay deck to control, he does his thing... calls out replay on 14...release the pushbutton of that camera .... presses the button corresponding to the next replay deck...delays ever-so-slightly and then releases that deck's shot. BACK to BACK replays all before the teams break huddle. Remember press no button and all decks are controlled. press any one button and only that deck is controlled. why 6 decks? we shoot 6 live cameras. camera 1: wide high and handsome / Camera 2: Hero Cam, follows the ball / 3: dedicate isolation camera... best guess / 4: field low left / 5: field low right / 6: end zone.

as for leaving the showstoppers running 10-15 seconds behind the action, we've tried that, but you have to bring back the replay in real time....can't easily do slow motion... but one value of bringing the replay back in real time is that you audio will be replayed. so you can record crowd to the deck and when the hit occurs, you can have that pot'd in slightly for ambiance. show stoppers have slow-mo, slo-slo-mo and slo-slo-slo motion. But, alas, they are MPEG1 and the quality is eversoslightly less than perfect broadcast quality. :thumbsup:

the deck and the use of replays varies greatly from sport to sport. football is essentially a game of replays. in basketball, you can only bring back a replay on a foul, time-out, or extended dead ball. In soccer, only injuries or goals... in baseball, each hit, close call, homer and such. On all sports but football, we let the deck run 'live' and use the 10 second rewind to 'recue' or hit it twice, 3 times for 20 or 30 seconds.

good luck.

mikkowilson
09-04-2005, 03:06 AM
vanderwielen,
A very imprsive, and well thought out system!

..That's the most creative use of the remote inputs on a monitor I've heard yet. :-)

..nice little buggers those TM9's arn't they?


- Mikko