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Wickster
08-18-2005, 12:07 AM
Yeah, so now that LW9 is announced and ready to ship later this year, I have some questions about LWX(10)...well sort of.

According to the feature listing of LW9: "LW9 Brings 'Major Core Changes' to LW." Changes? Major? So does that mean that LWX will possibly the completion of the Core rewrite? Or is it ongoing?

I noticed that NT was talking about seperating the 'render core' from layout or about 'rewriting the raytracing engine' to be more faster without losing quality or retructuring the core or phase 1 of the rewrite...somewhere along those lines.

So, removing this core and rewriting that core and adding this here, could mean that NT might be planning and/or preparing something BIG for LWX...They've already touched some of the 'major' parts of LW so could that mean that NT will work on the other untouched parts of LW and rewrite/remove/add code/core to it and make it complete for LWX? But it's phase 1? How many phases are there?

"Lightwave X" sounds like a cool stage to do a major MAJOR update.

You all know I'm writing this cause I'm getting bored waiting for 8.5 to be released and my Vue 5 to arrive...Feel the same way? Then start writing your thoughts about LWX, its a good way to lose 5-10mins of waiting time. Gakt! It sucks having to wait! :cursin:

_________________________
"It's just my opinion, no need to get mad at me for it!" <-Wish it was this easy.

gjjackson
08-18-2005, 06:23 AM
They separated the render core in v8.

Nemoid
08-18-2005, 06:57 AM
i think the 8.x cycle was more on working under the hood, separating parts of the core , introducing and integrating cool plugins,actually making them become part of the toolset. and most important, addressing bugfixes and stability issues.
9.0 will be the result of these and other major changements, and the first result of a tighter integration between modeler and layout toolset and elements.

after 9.0, the work will continue, and so,at the end all the modeler features will be at layout disposal (for example edge selection) and vice versa. modeler and layout will become the way in which the app is displayed, for better organization of the workflow, but surely users will be able to show things in different ways if/when they want.

no more hub.

i think also major improvements will be made into the animation side, and on rendering speed and features : subpixel disp anyone? and what about full support for f prime rendering.

so Vx will be a big, big release.after the kick *** 9.0 BTW :)

jorbedo
08-18-2005, 06:28 PM
Sorry, Which Horizon are you talkin about?, I don't see any horizon for NT and LW after 2007, LW looks the same crappy old code covered by a GUI face lift.

NewTek needs to make something really radical, They are years behind of other companies that truly are making a lot of fuzz with their products.

They are investing a lot of money and now they will have to lower their prices to be competitive. I don't mean that LW is not good enough, is good enough for Zoic and other Grammy winners, but they got NT and a lot of programmers customizing LW to make it work, or do you really belive that they use LW out of the box? like everybody else on this forum?.

Don't be so naive guys, this is an industry, they don't care about the end user, they just want MONEY!.

Jb

jorbedo
08-18-2005, 06:30 PM
Sorry about the grammys

EMMY's

KillMe
08-18-2005, 06:42 PM
seems to be rather teh reverse taht we have new code hidden by the same old gui - renderer is had the raytracing core ripped out new one installed the whole thign has been isolated to make updating it easier

the mesh editing has likewise been ripped out of modlerer and now can be called on by either modeler or layout

sud's have had a complete overhaul

and proper edges with weighting have been introduced and all the toosl rewritten to use them

there si so much new stuff there i cant help but wonder at your motivation for your post

gjjackson
08-18-2005, 06:43 PM
Well, from what I've seen of v9 there'll be new features that No One else is doing at present. It looks like they'll be ahead of the curve again, as they were with HDRI. That was a fairly recent innovation for Maya. One thing that was interesting was the multiple rendering with different camera angles, along with a number of other features.

Wickster
08-18-2005, 07:44 PM
i think the 8.x cycle was more on working under the hood...
So Nemoid, if the 8.x cycle stated all the implementations and changes that would mean that phase one that Jay Roth was talking about has already started with 8 and we have no idea what phase of the change LW is at now? Which makes my theory of having Lightwave X being the end of rewrite cycle more likely. :D


no more hub.
That would be awesome. Though I don't mind having it if it can integrate other programs to it. Like say sending frshly rendered frames to photoshop without saving and opening it up again in photoshop. Or straight up sending objects and rigs to Animanium or Motionbuilder with one click. Then again having no hub is cooler (my opinion on it).


seems to be rather teh reverse taht we have new code hidden by the same old gui - renderer is had the raytracing core ripped out new one installed the whole thign has been isolated to make updating it easier
Yeah I've seen the renderer in action at siggraph...I'm not sure what Andy was talking about 2 to 4X faster but from what I saw it way more than that, it was fast. That's why right after exiting siggraph, went home and quickly ordered my copy of LW9.

alvin_cgi
08-18-2005, 09:39 PM
hmmm... as far as I know(told by the sw dealer), LW8.5 IS last version of LW, the "END" of the LW!! LW9 is totally new program, has been rewritten and very aggressive, dropping price will create some pressure for other companies... but beware all of your plugins you have invested, might not compatible with the new LW!! :goodluck:

LWX... still too far away, but I am expect LW9 have a HUGE improve on render speed - specially for HV, new improve on dynamic, easier to use and more accurate, of cause BIG improve on character animation is a must!!! :dance:

CB_3D
08-18-2005, 09:51 PM
Sorry, Which Horizon are you talkin about?, I don't see any horizon for NT and LW after 2007, LW looks the same crappy old code covered by a GUI face lift.

NewTek needs to make something really radical, They are years behind of other companies that truly are making a lot of fuzz with their products.

They are investing a lot of money and now they will have to lower their prices to be competitive. I don't mean that LW is not good enough, is good enough for Zoic and other Grammy winners, but they got NT and a lot of programmers customizing LW to make it work, or do you really belive that they use LW out of the box? like everybody else on this forum?.


Jb

???
Wow...Zoic has a special version that NT holds back from the market to .... why again??

LOL

colkai
08-19-2005, 03:18 AM
Sorry, Which Horizon are you talkin about?, I don't see any horizon for NT and LW after 2007, LW looks the same crappy old code covered by a GUI face lift.
...
they don't care about the end user, they just want MONEY!
Jb

As opposed to "others" who are doing it for the love eh? So which marekting dept are you from exactly?

Ahh, where's me shotgun when I need it, sometimes ya just gotta do some gene pool cleaning. :p ;)

Captain Obvious
08-19-2005, 03:48 AM
Sorry, Which Horizon are you talkin about?, I don't see any horizon for NT and LW after 2007, LW looks the same crappy old code covered by a GUI face lift.
First of all, I hardly think Lightwave's code is "crappy." Sure, there are plenty of bugs, but judging from the competition, it's not really worse. It's old code, yes, but code doesn't go bad over time. As for the "GUI face lift," Lightwave looks about the same now as it did when I first tried it (version 6). For Lightwave 9 (from the preliminary features list), I sure as heck didn't see an entry that said "new high-resolution widgets giving Lightwave that lickable look" or anything even remotely similar. They will supposedly add a lot of colour options, but that is not really the same thing as a GUI face lift in an application like Lightwave. Colour coding is very important for a GUI as complex as Lightwave's. Being able to define your own colours can be quite nice. It's not quite the same thing as adding skins to it. ;)


NewTek needs to make something really radical, They are years behind of other companies that truly are making a lot of fuzz with their products.
No, they're not. I know this is hard to accept, but NewTek really *aren't* all that much behind. Behind who, for that matter? It all depends on what you're looking for, I'd say.


They are investing a lot of money and now they will have to lower their prices to be competitive. I don't mean that LW is not good enough, is good enough for Zoic and other Grammy winners, but they got NT and a lot of programmers customizing LW to make it work, or do you really belive that they use LW out of the box? like everybody else on this forum?.
They've already lowered the prices, in case you hadn't noticed.


Don't be so naive guys, this is an industry, they don't care about the end user, they just want MONEY!.
They may be slightly more capitalistic than the developers of Blender, but trust me when I say that the folk at NewTek probably are quite passionate about what they do. It's not Adobe, for crying out loud, and it's definitely not United Fruits. As far as I've noticed, NewTek is still run by a bunch of nerds interested in computer graphicsm. Just like it should be.

Worry about their wish to make money when they replace the CEO with someone who isn't the least interested in what they do. NewTek's current CEO has worked as the editor-in-chief of a video journal, for example. One can safely assume he cares at least a little about making a good and innovative product, and not just selling a lot of it.

Dodgy
08-19-2005, 04:12 AM
NewTek needs to make something really radical, They are years behind of other companies that truly are making a lot of fuzz with their products.


Like maya's new release, with it's NEW ability to edit meshes after being attached to bones? Something we've had all through maya's dev cycle? Or it's ability to apply MORE THAN ONE colour map to a mesh? Woo hoo! Don't get me wrong, Maya has some very cool features, but you pay $7000 for them and it seems to me it's latest release is playing catch up too.



They are investing a lot of money and now they will have to lower their prices to be competitive. I don't mean that LW is not good enough, is good enough for Zoic and other Grammy winners, but they got NT and a lot of programmers customizing LW to make it work, or do you really belive that they use LW out of the box? like everybody else on this forum?.
Jb

If you read any of the interviews with FX guys using any other soft, they always mention how such and such an effect was custom written, usually by their in house dev team. No software does everything people want it to, this is true the larger the production. That's why we have plugins!

We've seen some major additions to LW now, and I can only see we're going to get more not less.

Aegis
08-19-2005, 04:45 AM
do you really belive that they use LW out of the box? like everybody else on this forum?

Whilst I can't comment on how Zoic use LightWave, I can assure you on New Captain Scarlet, we were using "out-of-the-box" LightWave 3D all the way - 110 seats of it to be precise on what was the largest LightWave production ever undertaken in Europe.

Sure, we had a few plugins (FPrime, G2, Sasquatch, Polk, Taft, HD Instance, EdgeFX, MicroWave, Beaver Project, Point Oven) which expanded what we could do and/or streamlined pipeline issues for us but generally speaking, almost everything we rendered could be done with LightWave [8] "out-of-the-box".

Nemoid
08-19-2005, 05:36 AM
So Nemoid, if the 8.x cycle stated all the implementations and changes that would mean that phase one that Jay Roth was talking about has already started with 8 and we have no idea what phase of the change LW is at now? Which makes my theory of having Lightwave X being the end of rewrite cycle more likely. :D

yap that phase i think started out with 8.0. the work they mainly did was also work on plugs dlls a nd structure. something has changed at this level. they also bought and integrated some important plugs especially in modeler, but also in layour with bone tools. its not the same of adding them to lw as we usually do with free or commercial plugs as someone may think at a first glance.
they also obviously started to work on all these things even more, actually improving them. and started to separate parts of the code like mesh editing toolset and rendering. this was surely made at 8.3 time.

8.5 will present some enhancements as well, and whats more important is that this work will allow 9.0 to reach a tighter integration between modeler and Layout.

but i guess there will be more, if not at 9.0 in later releases, to follow the path and do a seamless integration, with no need of hub.



That would be awesome. Though I don't mind having it if it can integrate other programs to it. Like say sending frshly rendered frames to photoshop without saving and opening it up again in photoshop. Or straight up sending objects and rigs to Animanium or Motionbuilder with one click. Then again having no hub is cooler (my opinion on it).

i'm never been a hub fan, just because what i actually think is that it's a third program to make 2 other apps communicate. this will not be the same once the core will point to different compartments, like mesh editing, rendering, animation , from a center point. which could be called the core seed. actually this "seed" could be also changed in something managing items into a nodal fashion. that would be actually gread allowing a famntastic amount of flexibility.



Yeah I've seen the renderer in action at siggraph...I'm not sure what Andy was talking about 2 to 4X faster but from what I saw it way more than that, it was fast. That's why right after exiting siggraph, went home and quickly ordered my copy of LW9.

teh main thing that matters to me is rendering speedness coupled with accuracy. this seems to be in Lw dev team chords, because they started to implement things like adaptive subdivision based on distance from camera, and camera view too, which is a very clever way to think.this amazed me. i did't expected that from them now at all.
built in renderer will become faster, and coupled with the f prime possibilities we'll have 2 renderes at our disposal :)

this means alo that , differently from other companies working only through support of other products, Nt believes in their rendering engine possibilities. while still a bit behind in some features like subpixrel displacement, the quality of lw rendering is good in terms of beliavability and also in ease of use. :)

Wonderpup
08-19-2005, 05:38 AM
Don't be so naive guys, this is an industry, they don't care about the end user, they just want MONEY!.

There really is no conflict between wanting to make money and caring about the end user. In fact any company that stops caring about its customers needs and desires will rapidly cease to make money.

The most important thing for me about the 9 feature list was that it proved Newtek are serious about Lightwave's future and commited to it's development- that's the signal I was waiting (and hoping) for.

Matt
08-19-2005, 09:10 AM
Personally, I think NT should do what thingy-olgy did and re-write everything from the ground up with cutting edge toolset and technology and no limitations with legacy code and ideals.

ibanezhead
08-19-2005, 09:31 AM
One of the main things that would change people's opinions about LW would be a new innovative interface. Something well organized and pleasing to the eye. Just looking at Modo makes you realize the potential LW has in this area. For the most part that's all Modo is, LW/Modeler with a new interface...

The current dated interface just confirms people's opinions that LW is behind. It looks behind, therefore it is. Even though it can do many things better than other programs... It's all superficial, but it does affect opinions, and sales...

Cobalt
08-19-2005, 10:03 AM
I hardly ever look at the the left and top menu interfaces in LW Modeler. It's all short-cut keys for me.

New and improved interfaces is not that important to me.

ibanezhead
08-19-2005, 10:46 AM
New and improved interfaces is not that important to me.

That's great. But for many others, it is. So no matter what the interface looks like, you can be happy, cause you can turn everything off. But for others who choose to work with everything on, the interface may be a big deal...

Imatk
08-19-2005, 11:26 AM
Zoic uses the same version of LW that everyone here uses.

Generally Zoic has THE latest beta build of the program and Newtek and Zoic work very closely with all of the artists to try and resolve problems and help out with feature requests... but it's not some special Zoic version of Lightwave.

There are some really great programmers at Zoic who do amazing things with Lightwave and write special plugins and LScripts that do all sorts of great things so in that respect, yes Zoic has proprietary software that does cool stuff, but it's not like Newtek is holding out on everyone or anything.

KillMe
08-19-2005, 11:41 AM
you know everyone goes on about how great modo's interface is - its possible thte thing i hated most about it - it cluttered up the screen by default and the tools refused to just activate - and to undo something took about 3 hits of the undo button - was frustraiting - so please newtek dont emulate modo interface

hrgiger
08-19-2005, 12:54 PM
Sorry, Which Horizon are you talkin about?, I don't see any horizon for NT and LW after 2007, LW looks the same crappy old code covered by a GUI face lift.

NewTek needs to make something really radical, They are years behind of other companies that truly are making a lot of fuzz with their products.

They are investing a lot of money and now they will have to lower their prices to be competitive. I don't mean that LW is not good enough, is good enough for Zoic and other Grammy winners, but they got NT and a lot of programmers customizing LW to make it work, or do you really belive that they use LW out of the box? like everybody else on this forum?.

Don't be so naive guys, this is an industry, they don't care about the end user, they just want MONEY!.

Jb

Good to see CIM is back. Or his clone.

jorbedo
08-20-2005, 01:15 AM
The most important thing for me about the 9 feature list was that it proved Newtek are serious about Lightwave's future and commited to it's development- that's the signal I was waiting (and hoping) for.

I agree a 100% with you wonderpop, I only hope that this time is for real and not a neat press-release.

Sorry guys but I'm tired to see a lot of people switching to Maya and Max, even on the company that I'm working for they bought a lot of Cinema 4D licenses, And tired of workarounds, crashes, etc.

JB

cresshead
08-20-2005, 06:29 AM
and you actually belive that 3dsmax, maya and cinema do NOT crash or need workarounds?

all the above programs will crash...depends on what your trying to do and how stable YOUR pc is...

ALL progams metioned above need workarounds...not EVERYTHING you'll ever need in a 3d project will be doable 'out of the box'...some will need scripts, some will need plugins [free or commercial] and some will need a bit of creative thought by yourself or your technical director......

same goes for lightwave btw :lwicon:

madjester
08-20-2005, 06:41 AM
Don't get me started on the Maya seats at my school... Wow, they crash, nevermind...

LW 7.5 was really unstable for me. When I heard so many others praising its reliability, I got even more frusterated and that was the first true animation package I used. But having stayed with LW up until 8.3 I can say it was worth it. I have found that LW used to be far less stable by default but now it depends much more on the configuration of the computer.

Also there seem to be fewer and fewer workarounds and more actual fixes, the opening up of the SDK is a good example even though its not complete yet.

Captain Obvious
08-21-2005, 01:11 AM
Personally, I think NT should do what thingy-olgy did and re-write everything from the ground up with cutting edge toolset and technology and no limitations with legacy code and ideals.
Rewrite the whole thing, spending millions of dollars on developing the new one, while losing all the customers to the competition... Doesn't seem like a good plan, if you ask me. ;)

SplineGod
08-21-2005, 01:23 AM
I have a hard time believing anything was rewritten from the ground up. It looks a lot like the same modeler code with improvements. Regardless...my moneys on Newtek. :)

cresshead
08-21-2005, 02:27 AM
bottom line?
:I_Love_Ne :lightwave
:newtek: are cool

Chuck
08-21-2005, 08:41 AM
Personally, I think NT should do what thingy-olgy did and re-write everything from the ground up with cutting edge toolset and technology and no limitations with legacy code and ideals.

You really need to take a much closer look at things, Matt. In addition, please consider that one element of effective marketing is to find ways to make virtues out of your necessities, especially if you think they can be turned into a way to damage a competitor whose marketshare you particularly want to target. Even better if you can get their user community to think the notion was their idea.

As for our own efforts, using parallel changeover as discussed here:

LightWave's Future (http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/lwfuturedev.php)

...LightWave will most certainly reach the point where there has been a complete rewrite to a cutting edge toolset with no limitations with legacy code and ideals. It is already the case that the bulk of the code would no longer be recognized by the original programmers. This is a smart, terrific team, one that I feel is in many ways the best we have ever had, and they will bring LightWave into the future as a greater leader in capability and innovation than it's ever been before.

Earl
08-21-2005, 08:51 AM
As for our own efforts, using parallel changeover as discussed here:
I still don't know what IP stands for in that text. Any chance of getting it defined by the author of that text? Pleeease? It bugs me to no end. :bangwall:


NewTek's approach to the model is to implement innovative structures that allow both the rapid advancement of a given product, but also easy application of IP across multiple products.

Chuck
08-21-2005, 08:54 AM
Intellectual Property...in this case, proprietary source code.

Karmacop
08-21-2005, 09:06 AM
Sometimes I'm annoyed that Newtek's marketing isn't as good as other companies, but I'm always happy it's not complete bulls**t ;)

Earl
08-21-2005, 09:12 AM
Intellectual Property...in this case, proprietary source code.
Thanks Chuck! Good to have ya back. These forums just aren't the same when you're on vacation. :newtek:

Chuck
08-21-2005, 09:39 AM
Oddly enough, I'm replying while on vacation, on a Sunday morning, no less. Some habits are just hard to break! :)

Chuck
08-21-2005, 10:04 AM
Sometimes I'm annoyed that Newtek's marketing isn't as good as other companies, but I'm always happy it's not complete bulls**t ;)

:)

....................

Nemoid
08-21-2005, 01:54 PM
...LightWave will most certainly reach the point where there has been a complete rewrite to a cutting edge toolset with no limitations with legacy code and ideals. It is already the case that the bulk of the code would no longer be recognized by the original programmers. .

yeah that. i think is only a matter of some little time, to get finally rid of old limitations Lightwave inherited from its past age. once this will be achieved the whole Lw power will have the possibitity to burst out in its full potential, especially if innovation will be madse with animator in mind.


This is a smart, terrific team, one that I feel is in many ways the best we have ever had, and they will bring LightWave into the future as a greater leader in capability and innovation than it's ever been before.

agree. i totally didn't expect 9.0 so soon, nor features like adaptive subdivision , camera tools and other.
i also didn't expect modelling tools at my disposal in layout , and weight maps too.
Nt really listened to its customers in this case.

I really think the team is doing a good job. addressing major core problems for more efficiency, and also addressing strange implementations like weight maps in modeler only.
I perfectly know that working on old Lw code is not easy so kudos to Nt!! :lwicon:

Wickster
08-21-2005, 02:58 PM
Oddly enough, I'm replying while on vacation, on a Sunday morning, no less. Some habits are just hard to break! :)
Are you sure you're not in the office right now, waiting for that moment where everyone is not of the Downloads section refreshing the page for 8.5, so you can drop the file on to the server? :hey:

Anyway, I think the new dev team is doing a terrific job. I love the fact that they have added so much onto Lightwave 9 without changing the interface I've grown accustomed to. I hate to see programs focus on changing the look and not add anything new and call it a workflow improvement or the next build.


Don't get me started on the Maya seats at my school... Wow, they crash, nevermind...
:jester: Your school too? My professor always knew I'm a Lightwave user and when everytime maya crashes he'd look at me and I just look down, smile and just go tsk, tsk tsk! It was funny.


...Nt really listened to its customers in this case.
I also agree that this particular release of LW was a culmination of its user requests. Just shows that NT cares.

colkai
08-22-2005, 03:43 AM
It is already the case that the bulk of the code would no longer be recognized by the original programmers. This is a smart, terrific team
Chuck, there is no doubt that there are many of us out there who totally agree with this statement. :thumbsup:

starbase1
08-22-2005, 05:21 AM
Actually I find the user interface fine most of the time...

When things moved in V8 it was confusing, and I still sometimes go to the wrong place. But now I find if I pause and think about where it should be logically, its mostly there...

Simple example - the multiply tab in modeller, which previously did not have everything that increased poly or point count, and had a couple of things that did not in there.

(Only real pain is that edit copy cut paste are a level down now...)

I particularly like buttons labelled with text!

Now I'm only using v4 of Vue at the moment, but I abolutely hate the 'blobs on knobs' approach. I look at a bank of those, and I have no clue what most of them do!

Maybe it gets more controls on screen, but its about as user friendly as a cormnered rat when you are learning...

I don't really want to customise to a major degree, it will make tutorials (and manuals) much harder to follow.

Nick