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MusicPlusTV
08-15-2005, 11:21 PM
How come VT 4.5 is crashing more than even before? I thought it was supposed to be more stable? Crashes every 15 minutes when I add media to the DDR. Any reason for this?

Ivan
08-15-2005, 11:31 PM
So far it has been very stable here a few things I'd like to see fixed and a very strange Video Card message at one point but I have only been able to crash it twice since loading it. One time there was a very specific cause and I reported it to Paul.

What type of files are you using and what system are you running? Specific info helps determine the cause and fix the problem.

Ivan

MusicPlusTV
08-16-2005, 01:31 AM
Have a Dual Xeon 3.0 Processor, 2 Gigs of RAM, 256 MB Nvidia Video Card, SCSI RAID 0 Hard Drive. It crashes when adding media. The files are DV AVI clips. Crashes when adding clips to DDRs. Always get a "VT4.exe error" There's something wrong with the way it handles the files.

Ivan
08-16-2005, 06:11 AM
Type 2 DV seems to work ok here, are yours Type 1? Try to capture one of each for 30 seconds including the new Newtek AVI and see if it happens to all or just a certain type. You could also delete the Newtek Info folder for the clips that are giving you trouble. Not sure that would help, just offering ideas. Did you use VT to capture the DV files or another app?

Have you reset all your prefs after the upgrade? Did you change anythng or were you having the crashes every 15 minutes with SP1?

Ivan

Blaine Holm
08-16-2005, 08:01 AM
You might try deleting all your NewTek Info Folders. This can cause crashing if there is a corrupt clip.

Ivan
08-16-2005, 09:08 AM
Check the driver for your Nvidia card. Someone else here said that a different version of the driver solved some of the crashing they were experiencing.

Ivan

Jim Capillo
08-16-2005, 09:32 AM
Check the driver for your Nvidia card. Someone else here said that a different version of the driver solved some of the crashing they were experiencing.

Ivan

Anything above (later than) 66.93 causes problems.

Blaine Holm
08-16-2005, 10:03 AM
The NVIDIA driver issue casues a hard freeze, not really application crashes.

Harri Raisa
08-16-2005, 10:19 AM
I use now 66.93 and no more locking.

This is something that I didn't test with 77.72 drivers. Can anybody say that this is true. Put PAL or NTSC testpic to timeline (this is PAL75) and render image out, then put it back to timeline and look at your scope. Can you see the same thing? Or is that just me?

Harri

ScorpioProd
08-16-2005, 01:32 PM
Type 2 DV seems to work ok here, are yours Type 1? Try to capture one of each for 30 seconds including the new Newtek AVI and see if it happens to all or just a certain type. You could also delete the Newtek Info folder for the clips that are giving you trouble. Not sure that would help, just offering ideas. Did you use VT to capture the DV files or another app?

Ivan

Sadly, Type-2 doesn't hold A/V sync during firewire capture any better for me than it ever has in VT[4]. :thumbsdow

Blaine Holm
08-16-2005, 01:47 PM
Sadly, Type-2 doesn't hold A/V sync during firewire capture any better for me than it ever has in VT[4]. :thumbsdow

Are you running Win2K or XP?

sywitt
08-16-2005, 01:50 PM
I've been running for 2 days moving back and forth from 4 projects without a crash yet. I've used VTedit, Switcher, CGbuilder, Audio, Capture BUT I haven't used a DDR yet.

Ivan
08-16-2005, 02:41 PM
Eugene,

I haven't realy tried to capture Type 2 with it yet but the new Newtek Codec seems to stay in sync so far. I doubt that I will use Type 2 if you are not having any luck because I'm sure it will get me sooner or later as it has in the past. Why is it that most FREE applications can keep the audio in sync when capturing via firewire and VT cannot??

Ivan

ScorpioProd
08-16-2005, 02:42 PM
Are you running Win2K or XP?

Win2k.

But as has been stated before, people with XP had this problem as well.

More importantly, no other NLE or DV utility I have captured with (firewire transfer) on this system has had this problem, just VT capture. :cursin:

Blaine Holm
08-16-2005, 03:57 PM
Win2k.

But as has been stated before, people with XP had this problem as well.

More importantly, no other NLE or DV utility I have captured with (firewire transfer) on this system has had this problem, just VT capture. :cursin:

we have not seen the problem with our systems. Only one person has had it and that was with a Cannon XL-1, known to have a sync problem.

We do a 1 hour sync test that involves a time code clip, audio cue, and a strobe flash.

Ivan
08-16-2005, 04:17 PM
I have WXP and it happens here. I doubt I'll use it until I hear a confirmation that it is fixed. If you would like, I can copy a tape that is sure to hose your system and if you can make it work then you can brag. Don't expect it right away as I don't recall which tape it is but I can tell you that it has caused problems on my machine and it was always at the same point in the tape. Before you say it is a problem with the tape please note that ALL other applications on this machine and others including the Mac had no trouble with the tape. The real problem is that it does not always happen so it's hard to track down. I should have made a copy of that tape when I had it and sent it in to Newtek. It was recorded on a Sony VX2000 which I've never known to have sync problems.

Ivan

Blaine Holm
08-16-2005, 04:49 PM
I have WXP and it happens here. I doubt I'll use it until I hear a confirmation that it is fixed. If you would like, I can copy a tape that is sure to hose your system and if you can make it work then you can brag. Don't expect it right away as I don't recall which tape it is but I can tell you that it has caused problems on my machine and it was always at the same point in the tape. Before you say it is a problem with the tape please note that ALL other applications on this machine and others including the Mac had no trouble with the tape. The real problem is that it does not always happen so it's hard to track down. I should have made a copy of that tape when I had it and sent it in to Newtek. It was recorded on a Sony VX2000 which I've never known to have sync problems.

Ivan

Hey now, just trying to help. There may be an issue with dropout in your tape that VT could not handle (not blaiming the tape, or your system). Why don't you give me a chance to try the tape before you make your own assumptions about what I would say. I can sense your frustration, but don't shoot the people trying to help. We sell a lot of VT systems, and this is not a big complaint at all, and trust me, we answer every call, and try to solve every problem for our customers.

I'd like to find it out, and see if a tape that exhibits this issue on my demo system. I have heard of lots of people with this problem, so I'd like to see why it does not happen frequently on our systems (dozens sold so far this year).

And yes, you should have sent a tape to NewTek. I know they take every issue very seriously. Youcan send me a tape, and I'll return it to you. I'd really like to help.

Ivan
08-16-2005, 07:08 PM
Dont take my rant so seriously and I hope you didn't think I was picking on you. I have very few problems on my system and I can actually record hours and hours of DV and it will be in sync. The problem is that not EVERY clip will be in sync and it's not just the one tape. Out of 20 hours maybe one hour will have a problem. The problem is that 5% of the time is unacceptable when virtually every other application that I use has a problem 0% of the time. An hour doesn't seem so bad but when you are working till 2am and now you have to work till 3am it becomes a bother. I agree that there is likely a glitch on the tape and the drift always started at the same spot so it would be a great tape to get in the hands of Newtek. Problem is that no other application seemed to have a problem (FCP, RTX100, DVDWS on the same box as the VT) with it and it didn't drop any frames when bringing it in analog.

The other issue that I have with DV and now the Newtek compressed codec is that once you mess with the speed you cannot do anything else in Control Tree without the video strobing. Wanna see this? Throw a DV clip on the timeline and set the speed to 50%. Play it back and it looks great. Now do anything else (Crop, rotate, size, Colored Border) in Control Tree and it will strobe. This is not a playability issue, this is an issue with the way VT handles this footage. If you render it to an RTV it will still strobe. Thus if you want to change playback speed and do something else it needs to be RTV.

Ivan

Again, don't take the rant to seriously, I really like VT and it has been working very well for me, I know most of the work arounds and have yet to find something that I can't accomplish with my VT suite. I like the new Codec and the fact that I can now use Batch capture reliably with Firewire. The DV issue is just one of my pet peaves. Don't get me started on not being able to sort Tool Shed Presets... :)

jcupp
08-16-2005, 07:19 PM
Sucks, compression does :yoda:

MusicPlusTV
08-16-2005, 08:04 PM
Using Windows XP, the DV AVI was exported from Premiere Pro. Do I have to convert all the files within the VT4? That would really suck since I have over 500 files.

ScorpioProd
08-16-2005, 08:09 PM
we have not seen the problem with our systems. Only one person has had it and that was with a Cannon XL-1, known to have a sync problem.

We do a 1 hour sync test that involves a time code clip, audio cue, and a strobe flash.

I know, I believe you. It's just a few of us do have the annoying problem. I am confident that if Newtek could reproduce the problem they would fix it, but unfortunately for some of us, it doesn't show the problem on Newtek's systems.

Luckily for me, Type-1 does hold sync, or else VT wouldn't be a solution for my needs.

ScorpioProd
08-16-2005, 08:17 PM
Dont take my rant so seriously and I hope you didn't think I was picking on you. I have very few problems on my system and I can actually record hours and hours of DV and it will be in sync. The problem is that not EVERY clip will be in sync and it's not just the one tape. Out of 20 hours maybe one hour will have a problem. The problem is that 5% of the time is unacceptable when virtually every other application that I use has a problem 0% of the time. An hour doesn't seem so bad but when you are working till 2am and now you have to work till 3am it becomes a bother. I agree that there is likely a glitch on the tape and the drift always started at the same spot so it would be a great tape to get in the hands of Newtek. Problem is that no other application seemed to have a problem (FCP, RTX100, DVDWS on the same box as the VT) with it and it didn't drop any frames when bringing it in analog.

For me it isn't a problem in the tape, it's every tape I try for Type-2 capture. And Type-1 doesn't have the problem, proving it's not the tape. Though what you describe does sound like one of your tapes may have a specific problem.



The other issue that I have with DV and now the Newtek compressed codec is that once you mess with the speed you cannot do anything else in Control Tree without the video strobing. Wanna see this? Throw a DV clip on the timeline and set the speed to 50%. Play it back and it looks great. Now do anything else (Crop, rotate, size, Colored Border) in Control Tree and it will strobe. This is not a playability issue, this is an issue with the way VT handles this footage. If you render it to an RTV it will still strobe. Thus if you want to change playback speed and do something else it needs to be RTV.


Does this happen if you set the speed for 75%? The reason I ask is ever since the beginning of the VT, we were always told that speeds below 51% should be avoided, since 50% is where it starts throwing away every other field, which I could see potentially playing into the problems you describe.

ScorpioProd
08-16-2005, 08:22 PM
Using Windows XP, the DV AVI was exported from Premiere Pro. Do I have to convert all the files within the VT4? That would really suck since I have over 500 files.

Barring any special DV codecs like the Canopus one, Premiere Pro normally uses Type-2 DV files, so they'll play fine in VT[4] 4.5.

The problem Ivan and I are talking about is ONLY on files captured via firewire INSIDE of VT[4] 4.5.

Playback and rendering of TYPE-2 DV in VT[4] 4.5 is fine.

Ivan
08-16-2005, 09:28 PM
Eugene, try the instructions I gave. It's not because you are at 50%. There is a distinct and noticable difference between playing an AVI clip at 50% speed with NO other Control Tree functions set and playing the same clip at 50% speed and any other Control Tree function such as size, position, cropping, border, etc. ANY chages in control tree to the above listed items no matter how small will cause the problem. This is not just my system, I have verified it on a number of systems and reported it to Newtek. The greater the motion in the clip the easier it will be to spot. Try it and let me know what you think.

Ivan

Blaine Holm
08-17-2005, 06:39 AM
Dont take my rant so seriously and I hope you didn't think I was picking on you. I have very few problems on my system and I can actually record hours and hours of DV and it will be in sync. The problem is that not EVERY clip will be in sync and it's not just the one tape. Out of 20 hours maybe one hour will have a problem. The problem is that 5% of the time is unacceptable when virtually every other application that I use has a problem 0% of the time. An hour doesn't seem so bad but when you are working till 2am and now you have to work till 3am it becomes a bother. I agree that there is likely a glitch on the tape and the drift always started at the same spot so it would be a great tape to get in the hands of Newtek. Problem is that no other application seemed to have a problem (FCP, RTX100, DVDWS on the same box as the VT) with it and it didn't drop any frames when bringing it in analog.

The other issue that I have with DV and now the Newtek compressed codec is that once you mess with the speed you cannot do anything else in Control Tree without the video strobing. Wanna see this? Throw a DV clip on the timeline and set the speed to 50%. Play it back and it looks great. Now do anything else (Crop, rotate, size, Colored Border) in Control Tree and it will strobe. This is not a playability issue, this is an issue with the way VT handles this footage. If you render it to an RTV it will still strobe. Thus if you want to change playback speed and do something else it needs to be RTV.

Ivan

Again, don't take the rant to seriously, I really like VT and it has been working very well for me, I know most of the work arounds and have yet to find something that I can't accomplish with my VT suite. I like the new Codec and the fact that I can now use Batch capture reliably with Firewire. The DV issue is just one of my pet peaves. Don't get me started on not being able to sort Tool Shed Presets... :)

OK< I won't get you started....... :) I really just want to see this for myself, so I can try it across different demo systems and firewire cards. If you have a tape that does it everytime, that would really help.

tonsofpcs
08-17-2005, 01:33 PM
This is something that I didn't test with 77.72 drivers. Can anybody say that this is true. Put PAL or NTSC testpic to timeline (this is PAL75) and render image out, then put it back to timeline and look at your scope. Can you see the same thing? Or is that just me?
This has to do with the PLUGE pattern. The left 'black' bar is really superblack, and falls below zero; the middle one is black, the right one is grey. This is why the one bar is cut off.
For the parts that look 'blue and purple', these are -I and +Q, and are bursts of I and Q for tests of I/Q equipment [as opposed to R-Y/B-Y]. If you search around the internet, you should be able to find a more indepth explanation if -I/Q and why they are on the test pattern, but that is a bit beyond the scope of this forum, suffice it to say, a still digital image file format cannot contain the full data that an analog system can.

MusicPlusTV
08-20-2005, 11:41 PM
I still don't know why it keeps crashing when adding media. My system specs are a monster, yet it crashes for no reason.

ScorpioProd
08-20-2005, 11:53 PM
suffice it to say, a still digital image file format cannot contain the full data that an analog system can.

Well, that's not quite correct. If it is the correct color space and luma and chroma ranges it certainly can.

I have no problem storing test patterns in the RTV format, including the full PLUGE. Some codecs force a legalize on the video, which would cut off things outside the normal NTSC range, but not all digital video formats do this.

Harri Raisa
08-21-2005, 02:11 AM
This has to do with the PLUGE pattern. ... suffice it to say, a still digital image file format cannot contain the full data that an analog system can.

I did test output from Mirage and Combustion. VT still image output is same, so it's OK, nothing to fix. :thumbsup:

Harri

mnbear
08-22-2005, 07:12 AM
Ivan,

I have the same problem on my system (VT 4.5 w/a VT4 card).

My system has been VERY stable on 4.5 (unlike 4.0) with the exception, as I mentioned before, that it really hates particular codecs (the worst is the intermediary HD codec). These work fine on other systems like Vegas 6. Its not really a deal breaker for me, but it would be nice to be able to use ONE codec that worked reliably so I could move video back and forth between my Mac and my toaster without having to re-encode it.

Jim

(tee-minus 1 day or so until I get my new dual Xeon Toaster system, Yippee!)



Eugene, try the instructions I gave. It's not because you are at 50%. There is a distinct and noticable difference between playing an AVI clip at 50% speed with NO other Control Tree functions set and playing the same clip at 50% speed and any other Control Tree function such as size, position, cropping, border, etc. ANY chages in control tree to the above listed items no matter how small will cause the problem. This is not just my system, I have verified it on a number of systems and reported it to Newtek. The greater the motion in the clip the easier it will be to spot. Try it and let me know what you think.

Ivan

ScorpioProd
08-22-2005, 12:06 PM
I just tried what you guys said and I'm not seeing strobing on TVision or on my real outputs. VT[4] 4.5 with old VT card.

As for intermediate HD codecs, I've never heard any recommended as reliably working with VT.

mnbear
08-22-2005, 12:14 PM
Eugene,

The intermediary codec used in AspectHD worked fine with VT 4.0, but it causes a spontaneous reboot in 4.5, very bizarre, I didnt think software could do that.

I'm chomping at the bit to get a mac version of the NT25 codec, so I can add f/x in Motion 2. I am starting to test using Motion 2 and Lightwave motion paths.

For those of you who haven't checked out Motion 2, I can not even begin to describe how it has changed how I do stuff. The program is incredible and I'm beside myself that Apple is selling it for $299 instead of what its worth($1000 or more).

Jim




I just tried what you guys said and I'm not seeing strobing on TVision or on my real outputs. VT[4] 4.5 with old VT card.

As for intermediate HD codecs, I've never heard any recommended as reliably working with VT.

Jim_C
08-22-2005, 12:27 PM
I'm beside myself that Apple is selling it for $299 instead of what its worth($1000 or more).



Well for most of us , we'll have to pay for the dongle.
...A Mac..

;)

mnbear
08-22-2005, 12:32 PM
LOL! Pretty hefty dongle! My partner uses a Mac Mini with it, and while its not a powerhouse like my Dual G5, it seems to work well for smaller projects.

Now, let me know if you decide to order a mac so that I can get my kick back from apple... I need a new pair of shoes. (grin)

Jim




Well for most of us , we'll have to pay for the dongle.
...A Mac..

;)

ScorpioProd
08-22-2005, 12:40 PM
Eugene,

The intermediary codec used in AspectHD worked fine with VT 4.0, but it causes a spontaneous reboot in 4.5, very bizarre, I didnt think software could do that.

I'm chomping at the bit to get a mac version of the NT25 codec, so I can add f/x in Motion 2. I am starting to test using Motion 2 and Lightwave motion paths.

For those of you who haven't checked out Motion 2, I can not even begin to describe how it has changed how I do stuff. The program is incredible and I'm beside myself that Apple is selling it for $299 instead of what its worth($1000 or more).

Jim

Weird... Well, software can do strange things, I never thought a program could cause my rock stable Win2k system to BSOD, but I discovered when VT[4] came out that using the real-time DV out could do just that! Andrew told me it's not really a feature that will work with Win2k.

Motion 2 does look like a sweet program... I'm looking at a job where I may need to buy a laptop, and I am strongly considering a PowerBook to have access to Motion 2 and LiveType... FCP, well, I can get FCP Express HD for about $299... Might be good to have the Mac capability as well as my PC side...BTW, FCP Express HD comes with the full LiveType... And I paid $499 for the old India Pro CG as I recall...

Ivan
08-22-2005, 12:46 PM
Eugene,

You really don't see any strobing? Every machine I've tried this on it happens. I'm not talking about a luminance strobe, I am talking about the motion. Try a clip with motion in it and you should see what I am talking about. If you don't I want to know your secret. Maybe when Jim comes to the next VTUser Group I can show him on Alan's system.

Ivan

mnbear
08-22-2005, 12:56 PM
Eugene,

Apple is *REALLY* gonna owe me after this message. LOL

I can't recommend Motion 2 enough. If you havent had the opportunity to check it out, you should run down to your local Apple Store and run it on one of their demo systems (Its installed on all of them). Normally, I'd tell you to have a sales person show you a little about it, but motion is honestly easy enough to use that you'll be making cool stuff inside of a minute or two. The ironic thing is that Motion 2 is SO easy to use you are likely to not delve deeply into it and learn just how cool it REALLY is. Just about every feature of Motion2 is user-definable and you arent limited to just using the stock particles, f/x, and motions. Additionally, if you are lazy, Motion licensed the technology used in Particle Illusion, btw, and while you unfortunately cant use the Particle Illusion libraries, Wondertouch does sell compatible library packs that work with motion.

I'll give you an example of something I did in 10 Minutes... over the weekend, I saw the trailer for a remake of "The Fog" and I was VERY underwhelmed by the FX they showed in the trailer and the title F/X, so Saturday evening, bored out of my mind, I lauched Motion and inside of 10 minutes, I had a Black Screen, Fog roll in from the left and from inside the fog the title comes out, lingers on the screen for a good 10 seconds then gets blown away. It was 1,000 times better than the one in the trailer and took me just a few minutes to complete. Stuff that I wouldn't even consider touching before is now quick and fun. (Ack, I sound like I haven't been doing this for 15 years) :)






Weird... Well, software can do strange things, I never thought a program could cause my rock stable Win2k system to BSOD, but I discovered when VT[4] came out that using the real-time DV out could do just that! Andrew told me it's not really a feature that will work with Win2k.

Motion 2 does look like a sweet program... I'm looking at a job where I may need to buy a laptop, and I am strongly considering a PowerBook to have access to Motion 2 and LiveType... FCP, well, I can get FCP Express HD for about $299... Might be good to have the Mac capability as well as my PC side...BTW, FCP Express HD comes with the full LiveType... And I paid $499 for the old India Pro CG as I recall...

ScorpioProd
08-22-2005, 03:27 PM
Eugene,

You really don't see any strobing? Every machine I've tried this on it happens. I'm not talking about a luminance strobe, I am talking about the motion. Try a clip with motion in it and you should see what I am talking about. If you don't I want to know your secret. Maybe when Jim comes to the next VTUser Group I can show him on Alan's system.

Ivan

I believe you, you and I tend to hit the same problems in the VT! ;)

But I didn't see strobing... Was this on TVision, analog out, firewire out, all of the above?

There was motion in the video I tested, but it wasn't "fast" motion.

I'll look again.

Ivan
08-22-2005, 04:16 PM
You will see it on analog out and it will be much more pronounced with more motion. It's not so bad that you can't use it but it looks more like Progressive than fielded video. I'm not sure how else to explain it, it just looks jerky. Try this and you should be able to see it more clearly.

Duplicate the clip after you have set it to 50% speed. Set the lower clip to Overlay and Crop it so you see half of it and half of the other. The cropping will cause that half of the video to strobe on your Analog monitor.

Ivan

Ivan
08-22-2005, 04:26 PM
I never actually tried doing what I just described before but now that I have I can tell you what to look for. You will see the center line where the two clips meet up. Because they are timed exactly it should be seamless, try it with an RTV to prove this. By stepping through the clip frame by frame you will continue to see the center line when the motion is occurring in the middle further proving that this is not a hardware issue but rather a problem with the way VT is handling the video once something other than Speed control is changed.

Ivan

Ivan
08-22-2005, 04:39 PM
Ok, now that I've done this and looked at it frame by frame I think I can tell you what's happening. If you run a DV clip at 50% speed VT plays each field for one frame. If you crop the video VT will play both fields together for 2 frames. Again this happens with anything else you do in control tree like positioning, border, size, etc.

Ivan

Tod Cole
08-22-2005, 04:47 PM
How come VT 4.5 is crashing more than even before? I thought it was supposed to be more stable? Crashes every 15 minutes when I add media to the DDR. Any reason for this?
What happened to this thread?

MusicPlusTV
08-22-2005, 05:28 PM
Thats why I started a new thread. Since it went off topic.

Ivan
08-22-2005, 05:49 PM
Oops, sorry, wanna go ride bikes?

Ivan

mnbear
08-23-2005, 07:26 AM
Mine was way more off topic than Ivan's. I have such a linear train of thought that sometimes it gets in the way of all this "non-linear" talk, sorry folks.

Jim