PDA

View Full Version : ██ Paint Paint Paint ! T___T██



zardrose
08-03-2005, 03:35 PM
LW Paint??? where?

Maya 7 Zbrush 2.5
plugin linking Projection Master to Photoshop. ██

Zbrush 2.5
that will really improve upon the outputting of normal maps ██ and the like. Really seemed to be feature rich.



Slio 2.0 ██ Sub+Displacement Painting ██
http://www.nevercenter.com/silo/silo_20/silo_20_arm.jpg
http://www.nevercenter.com/videos/index.php?vidclip=silo_20_displacement.mov


Modo 2D+3D Paint

http://www.luxology.com/modo/201/img/Paint3.jpg

http://www.luxology.com/modo/201/img/Paint1.jpg

http://www.luxology.com/modo/201/img/Paint2.jpg

hrgiger
08-03-2005, 04:03 PM
You give people 99 things out a 100 and yet they're still asking "yeah, but where is item #100?

You can't please anyone.

Make a feature request.

jan_muentinga
08-03-2005, 05:34 PM
I dont get your point.

cheers

harlan
08-03-2005, 07:19 PM
Ohhh MonkeyNuts!!! :)

archiea
08-03-2005, 07:41 PM
what.. you don't like the half *** implementation in Mirage? :tongue:
\

Try bodypaint2.5.... its worth a look-see..

Oh, and HRgiger, 99/100 by who's count? people wants these advanced features as i've stated before.. and you can get them in higher priced products because, well, you get what you pay for. Elitist not withstanding. I love the 9.0 announcement, yes its is great. And newtek has the wind on their backs for a change instead of an uphill battle. But yes, some of us want more.... :D

WizCraker
08-03-2005, 08:10 PM
And of course you are spaming the forums by cross posting. Your other post in General Support http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?t=39171

Shame on you.

You might want to read the features before you buy into a program if you are looking for certain things such as painting on objects. It appears that your only here to complain.

Dodgy
08-04-2005, 03:26 AM
what.. you don't like the half *** implementation in Mirage? :tongue:
\

Try bodypaint2.5.... its worth a look-see..

Oh, and HRgiger, 99/100 by who's count? people wants these advanced features as i've stated before.. and you can get them in higher priced products because, well, you get what you pay for. Elitist not withstanding. I love the 9.0 announcement, yes its is great. And newtek has the wind on their backs for a change instead of an uphill battle. But yes, some of us want more.... :D

Umm, I was looking at a m*y*'s feature page for 7 and it seemed that 80% of it's NEW features we've already had for a while. We're not the only ones catching up.... Each package has it's own strengths.

moc
08-04-2005, 03:51 AM
sorry,but I really like the silo's realtime displacement painting....look like Zbrush...and it seems our LW can handle complicate details at this way.....
and the real time map painting was cool and useful.both them are great to speed up the workflow........
If newtek can do anything,they should creat a suitable enviroment for the 3rd party programmer....such as faster OPENGL..... ...

Dodgy
08-04-2005, 05:11 AM
If newtek can do anything,they should creat a suitable enviroment for the 3rd party programmer....such as faster OPENGL..... ...

Aren't they doing that with 9?

paulrus
08-04-2005, 06:45 AM
Didn't Proton or someone else post a video where you could do something very similar to painting displacements in LW? I seem to recall creating a morph target of an object and then painting a weightmap to control the morph which simulated displacement painting.

I'm not saying it's the best solution, but if it's something you must have right now it's a method to explore.

Paul

hrgiger
08-04-2005, 08:43 AM
Oh, and HRgiger, 99/100 by who's count? people wants these advanced features as i've stated before.. and you can get them in higher priced products because, well, you get what you pay for. Elitist not withstanding. I love the 9.0 announcement, yes its is great. And newtek has the wind on their backs for a change instead of an uphill battle. But yes, some of us want more.... :D

I was just stating that Newtek has with version 9 brought a lot of the features that have been the most common requests of users in the last few years. Edges, edge weighting, a re-written core, faster and better renderer, ngons, faster SDS, better integration, modeling enhancements, true support for Open GL.....That list alone is worth the cost of the upgrade in itself. And if you had bothered to read the press release, you would have noticed a roadmap for the future. The program has now been redsigned to enable the developers at Newtek to bring these high end features faster and easier into Lightwave. So be a little patient...

Besides, didn't you say you bailed in 2002? Why are you concerned anyway?

beverins
08-04-2005, 08:50 AM
You know, while the Modo paint there looks fabulous, I can't comment on how it actually works. Painting on a 3D object to my mind is still klunky. To be honest, the best interface I've seen is Lightwave's humble Vertex Paint, even though it doesn't actually paint raster imagery or paint displacement.... so Newtek is playing it smart - sit and wait. Let Silo and Modo make the mistakes. :D

Lightwolf
08-04-2005, 09:04 AM
Painting on a 3D object to my mind is still klunky.
Actually, my first though was: Combine this with animation and you'd have the killer tool for matte paintings and set extension work. matchmove your camera, model basic blocks to extend the set, start painting on any frame, check your other animation frames for glitches, paint on those, render, done.

sweet.

Then again, I hardly need to paint on objects directly in my day to day work.

Cheers,
Mike

theo
08-04-2005, 09:16 AM
You give people 99 things out a 100 and yet they're still asking "yeah, but where is item #100?

Tell me about it....Sometimes folks seem to forget that we all exist in a very biased condition called reality which is the fuel in the engine of inertia. If ya ain't got the reality ya ain't got the inertia.

Frankly 3D just isn't 3D without Lightwave and this is the case even more so now.

wacom
08-04-2005, 10:08 AM
If Silo is so good with it then you should just BUY it. If you think putting out 110 bucks for something is too much then...well sorry. And I'm sorry, there is a reason that Zbrush is more than the price to upgrade LW- because it is the best at what it does. Just save you cents and get it- why would you want some half baked version like what's already in Maya anyway?

felix_man
08-04-2005, 10:17 AM
You give people 99 things out a 100 and yet they're still asking "yeah, but where is item #100?

You can't please anyone.

Make a feature request.

Ease up on him... he's right, anyone who has used zBrush knows this is the future of 3d. Newtek needs to get on the ball with this. I can model 5 times faster in zbrush then lightwave... FACT! Newtek really broke a barrier by introducing suD before the others.. but really barring Worleys fPrime contribution what has Newtek done except try to catch up with everyone else... oops sorry forgot Hyper voxels another amizing Newtek technology. I love LW and Newtek, but really since Brad left it hasn't been the same... maybe Brad helped motivate the team.

Come on no more excuses just because they have done great in the past. The dynamics system is rickety slow and unpredictable at best, Hypervoxels are so slow to render it's not very practical, even if you listen to the comments from the guys in the newtektv demo running now, the seem to talk alot about how simple LW is and what a great benefit it is with an easy learning curve... Bryce has an easy learning curve too.

Again, Love Newtek, can't live without LW but Modo is looking pretty good, and zBrush is the spit shine that LW needs. Really why can't Newtek give us what a program that used to be considered a toy can give us (zBrush).


Competiton is good for us, it forces the companies to keep upping the ante, but if Newtek doesn't keep up why should I keep paying for upgrades?

MY 2 cents

hrgiger
08-04-2005, 10:24 AM
I love LW and Newtek, but really since Brad left it hasn't been the same... maybe Brad helped motivate the team.


Brad and the others who left are exactly the reason that Newtek has to play catch up. Because they left the disjointed code that Newtek has had to spend the entire 8.X cycle trying to fix.

mattclary
08-04-2005, 12:33 PM
Brad and the others who left are exactly the reason that Newtek has to play catch up. Because they left the disjointed code that Newtek has had to spend the entire 8.X cycle trying to fix.


Word! :agree:

gerry_g
08-04-2005, 12:40 PM
Ease up on him... he's right, anyone who has used zBrush knows this is the future of 3d. Newtek needs to get on the ball with this. I can model 5 times faster in zbrush then lightwave... FACT!
Disagree, have ZBrush, would prefer to subpatch any day, 3D is dumbing down to make life easier for joe average but all these tools come at the cost of heavier and heavier meshes, you will never replace the economy and efficiency real polygon for polygon mesh generating, the tool set for which was written long ago.........I humbly suggest you go and learn how to use them and stop griping about just how much better life would be if only you had the latest fad.

UnCommonGrafx
08-04-2005, 01:41 PM
That makes me wonder which of you guys is Brad, himself! What a load of malarkey!


{Crap not written that ought to be!}

I say to all of the crap about the old, Long Live the [mostly] anonymous dev team!! Long live the President of 3D division that can actually PROGRAM!! Hype only goes so far...



In all seriousness, most of these painting tools ARE in LightWave. And they have been for almost two years. If you know where to look and how to use the tools, they are readily available. Subpixel displacement is coming. We really have been left behind. But it looks like $395.00 will get most of us RIGHT BACK IN THE GAME.

BazC
08-13-2005, 01:03 PM
Why hit on the guy so hard? I bet you Newtek are working on adding painting to Lightwave and I'd love to see texturing capabilities in LW, as has already been said most of the tools are already there. I don't care much about painting displacement but projection painting of textures? Oh yes!

SplineGod
08-13-2005, 05:37 PM
Robert you said it. How thick do these people think we are? :twak:

GregMalick
08-13-2005, 07:36 PM
Well I'm going to add my support to anyone who requests 3D painting in LW. This was in one of those polls about a year ago and I again am casting my vote for NewTek integrating this into LW.

Although we indeed have Vertex Paint & FI's UVchalk, I personally look forward to the day that a BodyPaint type function is integrated into LW. Although I actually enjoy working in PhotoShop - I would enjoy it much better if many of those tools were in Modeler/Layout. Especially since even saving the UV's texture image in PS does not automatically display in Layout. In my two monitor setup - that situation would be work almost ideally.

Of course, if someone else feels this is a worthless addition to LW - expressing that opinion is OK with me, too.

Finally, I think the LW9 release is ABSOLUTELY FABULOUS and kudos to the new development team. Since it is obvious that NewTek listens to what we users want - I'll sing out loudly : "3D painting is important to me too!"

private
08-14-2005, 02:59 AM
In all seriousness, most of these painting tools ARE in LightWave. And they have been for almost two years. If you know where to look and how to use the tools, they are readily available. Subpixel displacement is coming. We really have been left behind. But it looks like $395.00 will get most of us RIGHT BACK IN THE GAME.

I don't understand where your anger resides from towards another product. 201's painting system or something close to it isn't in Lightwave now, let alone almost 2 years.

$395 to get back into the game? Your sentence some how refers you were out of the game. Products can co-exist. However, look at it from this point of view, 201 has the painting system, edges, rewritten core, a renderer that's looks pretty smoking, UVs unwrapping and a Fprime like view/preview renderer for $695. That comes around the same time as LW9. So, it's either 102 and the free 201, or it's LW9 and VUE for $795. Add another $400 for Fprime. Even MORE expensive if you live in a VAT country, as those prices are in USD, not reflective of pricing outside the United States.

For a non animator, it's a very competitive deal.

private
08-14-2005, 03:01 AM
Finally, I think the LW9 release is ABSOLUTELY FABULOUS and kudos to the new development team. Since it is obvious that NewTek listens to what we users want - I'll sing out loudly : "3D painting is important to me too!"

I agree. Good things are coming to Lightwave, but they are coming/are already there in other packages. I look forward to seeing what's going to be shown/released in Q4, from all software vendors.

UnCommonGrafx
08-14-2005, 06:43 AM
Chuckle,
This sounds SO familiar...

hehe

You sound like an Alive Plugin.

If you read that as angry I can only think that you are their friend or a Marketeer from them attempting to make another sale. Their web page is pretty but I think LW[9] will kick butt.

And the choices aren't 'either or'; zbrush is probably a better bet if such a thing is needed TODAY. And that's been ready for some time.

The term "sophomoric" comes to mind with the 201 name. I guess that's how I see it, as well.

Back to topic: [9] isn't done; neither is sophomoric. ;) When they both are done, then it will matter. Today, I'm in agreement that we need more in LW. I'm sure the devvers are in agreement, as well. We shall see.

'Angry as he11',

private
08-14-2005, 08:41 AM
but I think LW[9] will kick butt...snip...And the choices aren't 'either or'


:agree:


sophomoric

:bangwall: I think you need to get out more. This, marketeer, attempting to make another sale....:rolleyes:

Gui Lo
08-14-2005, 09:06 AM
I fail to see how LW could be seen as needing to 'catch up'. It has a great history in terms of the functions invented and the content it has produced. It seems to be used in every genre of imagery from 2d to movies.

The on-going content is created for big names to the point where LW seems to own TV sfx and it looks to be making inroads into the big movies as well.

So I think it is the content history that defines the capability of the software not just the feature list.

Today I can switch on the TV, look at a mag, watch and movie or play a game and see what others are doing with the same app as I use.

Gui Lo

UnCommonGrafx
08-14-2005, 12:05 PM
Right on, Gui Lo!!

My phrasing of 'catch up' is in regards to forums and requests that we have the magic buttons that the other softs have.

Me...? I'm just thrilled to see Relativity in there. That, ALONE, tells me they are serious about the next revision: no more recreating the wheel while one exists. All the other stuff is gravy. ;)

Working on a Sunday so I can afford the update,

js33
08-14-2005, 01:55 PM
Well Robert I've been a LW user since version 3.1 and have bought every upgrade. I also recently purchased Modo 102 and the 201 upgrade. To me you can sit around here and cheer your tool on to incorporate painting which may or may not ever happen or you can just buy the tools that have them.

The way I see it I will have 3d painting by Q4 2005 just by purchasing Modo 201 and if I buy LW 9 upgrade I will have a redesigned core app that is playing catchup and no 3d paint.

You decide. I made my choice. :)

Cheers,
JS

UnCommonGrafx
08-14-2005, 02:53 PM
Appreciate the permission. I had, indeed, already made this decision. Glad to see you, too, have upgraded to [9]. Have you gotten Vue yet?

Actually, I made the decision NOT to buy ZBrush; it is the only painting application I would have at the moment. And I don't want it because I've been able to do what I've needed with what I have.

I do believe this thread was/is about painting on 3D objects in LW for [9]. I watched a few vids and it seems we are getting just that, in Layout. I believe the request was/is to make sure we have it in the next incarnation of [9], and to make sure the devvers for [9] know that we want this to work with the APS system, as well.


It really isn't about you or I, JS, so let's get our focus straight: NewTek, kick those other guy's butts with great features in implementing what your users have expressed they'd like to see in the future of LightWave 3D.

T-Light
08-14-2005, 06:55 PM
UncommonGrafx-

I do believe this thread was/is about painting on 3D objects in LW for [9]. I watched a few vids and it seems we are getting just that, in Layout. I believe the request was/is to make sure we have it in the next incarnation of [9],
Could be getting the wrong end of the stick here but aren't they talking about 'Vertex Paint' in the videos? Don't need to ask for Vertex Paint for 9, I believe from what they're saying it'll definitely be within Layout in 9. :)

I thought the thread was about detailed painting directly onto your models surface ala the new modo, zbrush etc, unfortunately poor old Vertex Paint doesn't come close. :(

I'm with anyone championing the cause to get direct painting/depth painting into layout and/or modeller, The competition have this and it's such a powerfull way to work and such a whopping time saver, Newtek ought to be looking to do the same.

This may be pure fantasy on my part (no idea on Newteks plans) but has anyone seen the 'Angler' movie for zbrush 2? Having that sort of 'paint on depth' within LW would be truly amazing! :lwicon: :thumbsup:

hrgiger
08-14-2005, 07:35 PM
Christ, that angler movie almost made me put $500 down on Zbrush. I just love the idea of painting a shape onto a model and then extruding those brush strokes into actual geometry. I would love to see somethng like that in Lightwave.

T-Light
08-14-2005, 07:41 PM
Warning, wreckless statement coming up...

Just been having a think about this. Painting in 3D is essentially calculating the point of your model directly behind the cursor, translating that to the UV coord of your texture and altering the RGBA within a (hopefully contiguous) area of memmory correleting to that texture. Anything you wanted to paint (disregarding normal mapping) can be painted in this way, specular, bump, colour etc. If this area of memmory can be linked (directly or indirectly) in real time to the OpenGL display routines...your almost there, offer a saving/conversion routine for the texture in memmory and... JOB DONE.

The best people in the world to calculate an accurate coordinate within a LW UV from any given point in 3D space has to be the very people who wrote the 3D software in the first place. Who better than Newtek to come up with a quick routine that can easily achieve this? especially with the new faster OpenGL routines coming in 8.5 and beyond.

Come on Newtek, doesn't have to be anything over the top, just give us a quick and dirty painting app in LW 9.0 :D

ColinCohen
08-14-2005, 08:01 PM
I haven't tried it yet, but some guy was saying that he was getting good results using UV chalk in combination with PS.

T-Light
08-14-2005, 08:02 PM
HRGiger-

Christ, that angler movie almost made me put $500 down on Zbrush. I just love the idea of painting a shape onto a model and then extruding those brush strokes into actual geometry. I would love to see somethng like that in Lightwave.
Un-bl**dy-believable isn't it!

If Newtek can give us a paint on bump mapping routine added to the 'Adaptive Mesh subdivision' coming in 9.0, we would pretty much have it. :thumbsup:

UnCommonGrafx
08-14-2005, 08:12 PM
Since everyone's talking to me...

Maybe my understanding is incorrect but painting on an object, in detail, is possible now. The problem is that one has to have a heavily divided object to really get the detail in the map. Few want to do this because of the weighty-ness of such objects when actually working with them in layout.

As I understand of what they are developing for [9], the APS system ought to be able to be tied into the painting (i.e., Vmap) system such that painting in detail, through render time subdivisions, ought to give us the painted detail we desire.

Again, this is possible now through the paint (vmap) system we have today, with the exception of the render time subdividing.

Just finished watching the 'Angler' movie and this is exactly what I foresee us being able to do in [9], to some extent. However, this IS ZBrushes' forte and I don't necessarily see us getting the full monty, as it were, when it comes to their toolset as it would have us back to my above scenario of heavily subdivided meshes to work with when animating. But being able to use their maps will be nice.

On this topic, ZBrush is the leader and that to strive for. And it's available TODAY for ANYONE that needs such a tool. Other apps, particularly those not on the market, have only ZBrush to aim for when it comes to painting about an object. Beyond that, I'm looking forward to what LightWave 3D [9] will have to offer. So far, what's to come looks as impressive as what's here or others are promising.



A side note: Imagine 3d had the first system of objects holding many models in one. (Correct me if you'd like) It was called the "States" system. With it, you could hold poses, textures, positions and morph betwixt any of the different states. No other system does it to this level, still, but Maya just added such an ability this year. My point is 3D apps, as they go forward, go back in efforts to satisfy both the devvers sense of what's possible and user requests as regards the advances of the day. With the abandonment of LW by her 'parents' she is in full swing toward being loved again by her stewards.

:lwicon: :newtek: :vticon:

T-Light
08-14-2005, 08:22 PM
ColinCohen-

some guy was saying that he was getting good results using UV chalk in combination with PS

Tried UV chalk some time ago and it crashed. :(

UnCommonGrafx
08-14-2005, 08:22 PM
That's what I was saying: it is the DE FACTO tool of this nature. It would have to be the most coveted program on my wishlist. No sophomoric attempt could hope to achieve what they have. Seems the closest we'll get is at render time. I hope we get more, of course...


Christ, that angler movie almost made me put $500 down on Zbrush. I just love the idea of painting a shape onto a model and then extruding those brush strokes into actual geometry. I would love to see somethng like that in Lightwave.

:agree:

T-Light
08-14-2005, 09:13 PM
UncommonGrafx-

As I understand of what they are developing for [9], the APS system ought to be able to be tied into the painting (i.e., Vmap) system such that painting in detail, through render time subdivisions, ought to give us the painted detail we desire.
Not sure I'm reading you right here, the way I read the videos was that you could opt for the high res version of your model to be placed in layout after the initial render. You would only have a portion of this model in high res, leaving vpaint without an accurate way to paint the entire model (imagine trying to draw text in vpaint on the low res stuff)
+VPaint is really slow with low poly stuff, never mind high poly.
+VPaint can't readily (as far as I'm aware) be input output to other image programs
+In the demos, they were using image bump maps and procedurals rather than vmaps to create the high definition models.

On a lighter note, started my first 3D head in Imagine 2 on the Amiga and finished her on Imagine 4 on the PC, nothing like putting together several thousand tri's, vertex by vertex and only being able to see where you going with a full render. Those where the days.:)

Gui Lo
08-14-2005, 09:47 PM
LW is moving things from the vertex to the pixel in OpenGl and displacements. I think we will see a similair transition in Vertex paint.

Silkrooster
08-14-2005, 10:41 PM
I think there are two different conversations going on here. 3d painting and object displacements. Both are very desirable, but I do not see the point of arguing about them at least not yet. The feature list of 9 is not complete. For all you know, they could be added to the list.(fingers crossed)
Silk

SplineGod
08-14-2005, 11:20 PM
LW can already do displacement painting using endomorphs. I dont see it as a big leap to be able to extend the idea :)

mav3rick
08-15-2005, 12:06 AM
btw. vertex paint is solid base to become full scale 3d painter in future. they need to throw paint brushes and bump brushes.....

Intuition
08-15-2005, 05:20 PM
I posted this render of a z-brush model in Lightwave a month or so ago.

I luv using Z-Brush. Getting the stuff back into Lightwave is not perfect.

I wish we could do it directly in Lwave so I wouldn't have to mess with the UV's and such. Plus we could probably do direct painting of not only color and bump but spec, reflection, transparencey, etc.

It would be cool. This render was a just a doodle I did. Z-brush rox. LW can do better I bet. :thumbsup: C,mon Newtek.