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stevestrike
07-19-2005, 10:11 PM
Allow me share what I'd like to do, and then give the problems/limitations I've come up against in doing it. If anyone knows of a fix or workaround for this, I'd appreciate it.

I would like to have a live camera feeding the switcher for a shot going to a projector (basic IMAG), and then overlay a lower-third graphic of song lyrics for a church service. The song lyrics come from another computer running PowerPoint, with specially crafted slides to allow keying. This signal is fed to an input on the VT4. The slides aren't in the exact order that the singers will perform them in (eg: sometimes they may skip, add, or repeat a verse or chorus) so there is another person running the PowerPoint computer and keeping the lyrics synced with the music.

The problem is that when you enable the key, it's a hard cut which is very abrupt and looks bad. The same goes for turning it off. I know you can fade the DSK, but the DSK can only be a local input from a DVR or CG it seems.

I'd like to be able to fade the key in and out for smooth presentation of the song lyrics while keeping a steady camera shot on screen the whole time. Or if there's a way to make the DSK use another computer as the source, that would work too.

Am I stuck?

Ivan
07-19-2005, 10:39 PM
Can you fade to a blank page with the other computer?

Ivan

Mediaworx
07-20-2005, 04:54 AM
My thoughts exactly Ivan, I just tried this and it worked perfectly. By inserting a blank page between every slide in PP and using the "fade smoothly" transition, you get the effect of "fade DSK".

Mick Haensler
Mediaworx

wvp
07-20-2005, 06:39 AM
OR...
if i'm not mistaken, I think you could open up a TED & put a video source (input #) on the timeline. THe downstream keyer may (i dont remember) may allow you to select TED.
If not, try creating a project with nothing but the video input, saving it, load that project into DDR & see if it will recoginze the changes live.

billmi
07-21-2005, 07:34 AM
You might also consider doing the key downstream of the VT. A video capture card, and NTSC out card on the computer with the lyrics, and a package like EasyWorship will handle the keying with gentle dissolves, and very easily allows switching between choruses and lines of lyrics on the fly.

For live IMAG though, you'll be adding delay to your signal going that route.

jsanfilippo
07-21-2005, 07:41 AM
Steve,

Assuming you are using 4.0, how exactly are you doing this? The reason I ask is because I've been researching VT for quite awhile, in prep for our new control room in our new church facility, which will be done later this year. I've been asking these questions regarding keying lyrics over IMAG from an external computer, and the answer I always get is that it won't work well in version 4.0

I understand your concern about the cut in and out when enabling the DSK... but I think the suggestion of a blank slide first is a good idea.

Version 4.5 will have a VGA capture that you can key from, just like Tricaster has now. Apparently this will work well for this type of use.... capture the output screen from Easyworship, Mediashout, etc.... and key that internally.

However, 4.5 isn't out yet, and may not be by the time I'm ready for it.

So can you tell me what exactly you are doing to make this work for you in version 4.0 - in case I end up doing that for the time being?

I would welcome a direct email dialogue with you... [email protected]

Peace!

Paul Lara
07-21-2005, 11:26 AM
I've been asking these questions regarding keying lyrics over IMAG from an external computer, and the answer I always get is that it won't work well in version 4.0

Version 4.5 will have a VGA capture that you can key from, just like Tricaster has now. Apparently this will work well for this type of use.... capture the output screen from Easyworship, Mediashout, etc.... and key that internally.


That is correct!

jsanfilippo
07-21-2005, 11:35 AM
Thanks Paul for the confirmation on the VGA capture. But the question on everyone's mind is...

WHEN??????????????????????????

My new VT will need to be built in November for a December install. I really don't want to start with 4.0 and then go to 4.5 a few weeks later! :)

stevestrike
07-24-2005, 02:26 PM
Paul, will owners of the VT4 vs. 4.0 be able to use this new VGA input function? Can you give any details as to how it works or is hooked up? Wait... does the VGA capture external or internal sources?


Can you fade to a blank page with the other computer?
This seems like a good idea, thank you all.

So can you tell me what exactly you are doing to make this work for you in version 4.0 - in case I end up doing that for the time being? Our solution is a simple scan converter sending the output from the slide computer to an input on the switcher. Two people are needed to run it during a service. Are you looking for more detail than this?

Good scan converters are expensive (upwards of $1,000), and we need to purchase another one. This is why that new feature in 4.5 is so enticing, but only if it captures external sources.

jsanfilippo
07-24-2005, 03:34 PM
Paul, will owners of the VT4 vs. 4.0 be able to use this new VGA input function? Can you give any details as to how it works or is hooked up? Wait... does the VGA capture external or internal sources?


It's external sources only... unless it's different from Tricaster. That's what makes it so cool for us in the church market. You run Easyworship, Mediashout, etc. on one computer, set up the slides with a green (or whatever) background, then run the VGA capture utility. This captures over a network cable. You tell it to capture all of the secondary output, and then you chromakey out the background with the DSK. This is all heresay - I've never actually seen it... but this is exactly how I understand Tricaster does it, and 4.5 WILL do it.



Our solution is a simple scan converter sending the output from the slide computer to an input on the switcher. Two people are needed to run it during a service. Are you looking for more detail than this?

Good scan converters are expensive (upwards of $1,000), and we need to purchase another one. This is why that new feature in 4.5 is so enticing, but only if it captures external sources.

Really - that's all? I didn't know that you could key one video input over another. That's not using the DSK, is it? What feature are you using? Yeah - I would use a scan converter that Genlocks... unless your other cameras don't genlock.

TRCC
07-24-2005, 03:42 PM
We delt with the exact same situation, and the outcome was giving up powerpoint all together.

Here is what we did, tried to "chroma key" powerpoint out, gave up because of the limitations of the switch.

Easy solution it may sound difficult but really its not...
Create your song using the character generator in VT, I know, I know its not the greatest, but its fast and easy and you can make an easier presentation with powerpoint.

I created a folder in the directory Called "SONGS" like GC pages, Projects, Clips I also have a tab in the filebin for SONGS

Each time I create a new song I create a new folder named after the song, in this folder I save the project file and a .png of each page in the CG

We create the lyrics, approx four lines at at time most songs take from 6 to 9 pages in the CG, then save the project in its very own folder for easy location, then take each page and save them as "01 Your love is great.png" "02 Greatly to be praised.png" naming the song with the slide number first so it is in order and then the first line of each slide for reference.

When you save them as pngs, you can bring them into a DDR and if you save them in sequence they will be loaded in order and all have to do is key the DDR and click on the slide that you want. We finally got rid of the old powerpoint computer in our Control Room. It sounds like a hassel but with powerpoint you have to type the number slide you want, write a list or print one out, yada yada yada... by doing it this way we can see what the first line of each song is, jump between slides with the click of a button, and switch however we want to, and its EASY, my volunteers do most of this work now, leaving me with the bigger stuff.

Luke
Video Director
The Rock Church

Paul Lara
07-24-2005, 06:02 PM
WHEN??????????????????????????My new VT will need to be built in November

In that case, you'll be fine. We're on Release Candidate 2 now.

Paul Lara
07-24-2005, 06:04 PM
Paul, will owners of the VT4 vs. 4.0 be able to use this new VGA input function?

I'm assuming you meant VT4 vs. 4.5. ;)

Well, all VT[4] users have to upgrade to take advantage of this, but the 4.5 upgrade is free.

stevestrike
07-24-2005, 06:40 PM
by doing it this way we can see what the first line of each song is, jump between slides with the click of a button, and switch however we want to, and its EASY, my volunteers do most of this work now, leaving me with the bigger stuff.

Luke
Video Director
The Rock Church
Luke, I can only assume that you are not doing IMAG as part of your services? I don't see how our director could keep up with switching 3-4 live camera's AND changing the song lyrics slides at the same time. Otherwise, the method you describe seems like it would work.


I'm assuming you meant VT4 vs. 4.5. Actually I did mean 4.0, but my question was poorly worded. I didn't realize that the capture was done over a network cable, and not a new hardware device (to be purchased separately). Either way, I'm salivating at the thought of these new features!

jsanfilippo
07-24-2005, 07:04 PM
Paul,

Based on your work with Tricaster, and assuming that it's exactly the same engine that will drive the VGA capture in VT 4.5, can you comment on how well the key will look when dissolving from one external song lyric slide to another? Does the chromakey feature have some adjustments to fine tune?

The reason for the question is that I seem to recall in some older discussions on the topic, prior to the advent of the vga capture, that people trying to chromakey external sources and doing a dissolve from one slide to the next had problems with the dissolve looking clean.

I am going over to my local dealer this week - they just got their tricaster while i was away on holidays, and they say they have played a bit with the VGA capture. I can't wait to try doing exactly this with easyworship and see how it looks.

PIZAZZ
07-24-2005, 07:05 PM
Luke, I can only assume that you are not doing IMAG as part of your services? I don't see how our director could keep up with switching 3-4 live camera's AND changing the song lyrics slides at the same time. Otherwise, the method you describe seems like it would work.
!

If you have a RS8 and 2 operators then it is pretty easy. The Technical Director drives the RS8 and the 2nd operator plays clikety clik on the correct lyrics.

imagodei
07-24-2005, 10:38 PM
Okay, am I understanding this correctly... the new VGA capture that 4.5 will allow is:

1. Via a network cable (through a hub or crossover cable)

-and-

2. Able to be used in the DSK, thus freeing up my preview bus while I'm using the feature? (verses the scan conversion/Chromakey method).

I certainly hope so... though I will lament not needing the $1700 ScanDoo II that I bought... welcome to eBay...

Kevin

bradl
07-24-2005, 11:14 PM
...You run Easyworship, Mediashout, etc. on one computer, set up the slides with a green (or whatever) background, then run the VGA capture utility. This captures over a network cable. You tell it to capture all of the secondary output, and then you chromakey out the background with the DSK...
Chromakey in the DSK? Surely not. But maybe you can with Tricaster and the 4.5. Anybody know for sure?

imagodei
07-25-2005, 12:27 PM
Chromakey in the DSK? Surely not. But maybe you can with Tricaster and the 4.5. Anybody know for sure?

Well, if it works like it does with the current VT[4] VGA capture utility, you can set a color to chroma in that utility, and it sends the signal to the VT as video with alpha and then you use it in the DSK...

jsanfilippo
07-26-2005, 02:03 PM
Chromakey in the DSK? Surely not. But maybe you can with Tricaster and the 4.5. Anybody know for sure?

I just tried this with Tricaster about an hour ago. The VGA capture works great, and keys beautifully, but only when VGA is in preview! Can you not access this through the DSK? I was told that I would be able to do this.... ARG!

If that is the extent of the ability to chromakey with the VGA capture, and VT 4.5 will be the same limitation, then it's still not the solution that the church market needs. We need this in the DSK!!!

Newtek - can you please comment???

(Also cross-posting this in the Tricaster forum - forgive the duplication.)

J_Camp
07-26-2005, 03:13 PM
I just tried this with Tricaster about an hour ago. The VGA capture works great, and keys beautifully, but only when VGA is in preview! Can you not access this through the DSK? I was told that I would be able to do this.... ARG!

If that is the extent of the ability to chromakey with the VGA capture, and VT 4.5 will be the same limitation, then it's still not the solution that the church market needs. We need this in the DSK!!!

Newtek - can you please comment???

(Also cross-posting this in the Tricaster forum - forgive the duplication.)Boy, I hope not...if that's the truth, I'm glad my money is still in my pocket (where it will stay if this is true) and not in Newtek's.
I was really hoping that this was not the case.

I've been lurking around the boards for some time now reading, and I know there is a lot of confusion on this particular sticking point about VGA capture and NO ONE of official ilk really wants to spend many words actually explaining stuff. The Newtek info on the web site has been sorely lacking in clear explanation on this point (I'm sure I'll bring the wrath of the Newtek shills down on me for making this post -- another thing I've noticed...)

I think it's strange how everyone keeps asking the same question and NO ONE official wants to spend very many official words on a definite explanation.

No offense, jsanfilippo, but I hope you were making a mistake...I really do.

Paul Lara
07-26-2005, 03:21 PM
The VGA capture works great, and keys beautifully, but only when VGA is in preview! Can you not access this through the DSK?

There is no selectable Downstream Key bus on TriCaster.

Paul Lara
07-26-2005, 03:23 PM
I think it's strange how everyone keeps asking the same question and NO ONE official wants to spend very many official words on a definite explanation.

My apologies if I have left questions go unanswered.

What specific questions would you like answered? I will answer them.

jsanfilippo
07-26-2005, 03:27 PM
My question, which you haven't left unanswered specifically, but which I'm trying to find out, is HOW EXACTLY will VGA Capture and the ability to Chromakey it work in VT 4.5??? Will it work in the DSK, so that we can do live cuts and transitions between program and preview, and chromakey over it - like a TRUE DSK!!!!!

Paul - you guys have a large and growing base of church users, and the ability to DSK song lyrics over IMAG, using both program and preview buses AND STILL DSK OVER IT is a must-have!

Please let us know how this will work, or IF it will work.

The VGA capture in Tricaster Chroma's nicely, but it's worthless right now. VT 4.5 needs to deliver more to win me over!

Thanks for your help in this!

J_Camp
07-26-2005, 03:28 PM
There IS no selectable downstream bus on TriCaster.
So does this mean that you can use VGA capture in VT[4.5] can be selected as an option from the DSK drop-down box?

If so, does this mean that I can use PowerPoint or Media Shout from another computer as the DSK source? For example, make a solid color background on all the slides, input text on them, have the background taken out, and lay that over a live video feed. (also being able to use transitions with DVEs between video sources without losing the key).

Paul Lara
07-26-2005, 03:33 PM
So does this mean that you can use VGA capture in VT[4.5] can be selected as an option from the DSK drop-down box?

My VT[4] system is on a truck for SIGGRAPH, but I"m trying to get an answer for your question.

jsanfilippo
07-26-2005, 04:23 PM
Thank you Paul! I am waiting with eager anticipation for this answer! I think a number of us are waiting for it, Paul. Honestly, if I can't use VGA Capture in the DSK, I'm gonna have to buy ANOTHER piece of gear in addition to the VT 4.5, which will be very disappointing!

jcupp
07-26-2005, 04:24 PM
Let me try to explain this. You have a normal video switcher that will switch between eight sources i.e three cameras, the "VCR" (DDR), a still store, bkg generator, "VGA" capture and black. Over the top of this you have a CG overlay. Over all of that you can key the "VGA" capture. This is a seperate key from the CG overlay. Note that the "VGA" input can be used either as a normal input OR a chroma keyed overlay.

Part of the confusion is NewTek's choice of non-standard nomenclature for the TriCaster - The VGA input has nothing to do with 15 pin VGA connectors, the VCR can't Record, and you display a picture with Picture which is an annoying 'who's on first' phone support routine -
Tech: Now load your picture in Picture.
User: I don't want to do picture in picture I want to just show my slide!
Tech No, I mean, load your slide into Picture...
User: I already have a picture of my slide I just want to show it.
Tech: <sound of head banging on desk>...

jsanfilippo
07-26-2005, 04:31 PM
Let me try to explain this. You have a normal video switcher that will switch between eight sources i.e three cameras, the "VCR" (DDR), a still store, bkg generator, "VGA" capture and black. Over the top of this you have a CG overlay. Over all of that you can key the "VGA" capture. This is a seperate key from the CG overlay. Note that the "VGA" input can be used either as a normal input OR a chroma keyed overlay.


Jeff, are you referring to Tricaster, or VT4? Are you speaking hypothetically, or about the CURRENT functionality of the VT4.5 which is yet to be released?

Thanks for clarifying nomenclature, which is appreciated. But I think those of us asking the question understand the signal path... it's just whether or not it actually works this way or not - that's the question!


Note that the "VGA" input can be used either as a normal input OR a chroma keyed overlay.

Unless I missed something on Tricaster today, you could not do this unless VGA Capture was selected in Preview (well, Tricaster's term is "Next"). That's useless except if you only want to cut from source to source on the PGM buss. I want to use the Preview as just that - a preview, and to be able to dissolve to. Hence I cannot have VGA selected in it all the time.

VT4.5 NEEDS to be able to do this completely downstream (hence DSK term)of the prgm and prvw busses.
:)

stevestrike
07-26-2005, 07:38 PM
VT4.5 NEEDS to be able to do this completely downstream (hence DSK term)of the prgm and prvw busses.
:)Exactly, and I sure do hope so.

jcupp
07-27-2005, 10:02 AM
To clarify my previous post.

I was describing how the TriCaster actually works (I'm a dealer and I have two of them). Presumably the 4.5 software will work in a similar fashion.

To use the VGA input as a key go to the VGA tab and click the "Send To VGA Out" button, adjust your keyer settings (on the same panel) and you are good to go. You can then switch using both busses and use the CG overlay as normal under the VGA key.

J_Camp
07-27-2005, 10:16 AM
...You can then switch using both busses and use the CG overlay as normal under the VGA key.
To clarify for my purposes, you are saying that you are able to use transitions/DVEs to go back and forth between sources without losing the VGA key from the other computer. (I'm assuming that you don't lose the CG overlay either...correct?)

I'm just dense (and I want to be absolutely clear because what I'm asking about is pretty much the MAIN {if not the only} reason that I would upgrade to 4.5)...the CG overlay that you talk about is from the CG inside Tri-Caster and it is actually behind the output from the other computer as the VGA key.

Video source -->CG overlay-->VGA key

If this is so, are you able to run a motion lower third in the CG overlay and then put text over the top of that with the VGA key? Does this allow you to have a motion lower third with no text and the ability to quickly switch text back and forth on top of that lower third?

Thanks for any info.

TRCC
07-27-2005, 04:33 PM
At the time being we ONLY do IMAG, but what you will probably need to do is get a volunteer or someone with minimal computer knowledge to help with switching. We switch 4 cameras usually and more for big events. It is possible to switch and change the lyrics at the same time but it is difficult and the director must quickly learn to multitask.
As far as what we do, I have volunteers for each of our services who have taken 20 min to learn how to click and go for the services.

Hope that helps!

You can email if you have any questions or want to see samples @ [email protected]

J_Camp
07-27-2005, 04:37 PM
...sounds like you guys are doing well, but I'm more interested in what the features of VT[4.5] will do in the area of VGA keying.

I'm not really interested in having two people share the same computer, (in fact, that's exactly what I'm trying to avoid). I have plenty of volunteers to put in place, I'm just trying to get a handle on what VT[4.5] will do.

Thanks, again.

jsanfilippo
07-27-2005, 09:14 PM
At the time being we ONLY do IMAG, but what you will probably need to do is get a volunteer or someone with minimal computer knowledge to help with switching. We switch 4 cameras usually and more for big events. It is possible to switch and change the lyrics at the same time but it is difficult and the director must quickly learn to multitask.
As far as what we do, I have volunteers for each of our services who have taken 20 min to learn how to click and go for the services.


This is a bit of a diversion from the main topic at hand, but it's a fun rabbit trail. You are suggesting that you are switching at least four cameras live, and that you found that you needed a SECOND person to help out, so the director wasn't calling the shots, switching AND runnings cg's (computer graphics) at the same time?!?!?! You do this with ONLY 2 PEOPLE?!?!?!?

Man - we run only three cameras for IMAG, and we have a director, a technical director (to run the switcher), a production assistant (to cue clips, count down segments, call out transitions in music, etc), and a CG operator. In a few months when I have space in our new facility, we'll be adding a shader to run the CCUs, too.

How in the world would you manage with only 2 people? :eek:

TRCC
07-28-2005, 09:56 AM
NO NO NO NO NO... I can't do all of that, well if need be I could but I would rather not. We have pretty much the same set up, at any given time during a service there is about 5 people in our control room. Director, TD, CG, Engineer (adjusting the cameras and creating graphics) and the usually a Producer or someone to Oversee and ensure all is well.

There have been times where I have had to try and tackle all things at once, thank God you can switch directly from the Keyboard or I would be pulling my hair out... HAha

Paul Lara
07-28-2005, 09:56 AM
So does this mean that you can use VGA capture in VT[4.5] can be selected as an option from the DSK drop-down box?

version 4.5 actually has a second keyer just for the incoming VGA signal, but you cannot choose that as a DSK source.

jsanfilippo
07-28-2005, 10:25 AM
Thanks for explaining, but more explanation is needed, Paul.

If it isn't selectable in the DSK, but is a 2nd keyer, what does that mean. Where does it fall in the signal path? Does it key over transitions? How do you turn it on and off from the RS-8? Does it take up your preview bus?

J_Camp
07-28-2005, 01:24 PM
...I too would like to know the answer to jsanfilippo's questions.

Sounds like a great feature, but I'm just trying to figure out if this feature will do what I need it to or if it's just going to get me almost there.

For example, it could be exactly what I need for this application. If the VGA is always on "top", then I assume (dangerous, huh?) that I could run a motion lower third loop in a DDR set to be the DSK and key the words from the VGA keyed source over the top of the lower third. If this can be done while using transitions between video sources, you guys will have truly done the big thing and I'll dance at your wedding and sing at your funeral. That would be exactly what I needed to a "T". Even if there wasn't a smooth transition between the turning on of the VGA key, I could put "blank" slides in the show and use that.

Now, if you guys did all that and if you made the keying look good from the VGA source even when using the slide transitions between slides from that software (keeping the background keyed out), then you are in line for a steak from Texas Land & Cattle (best I could do).

Paul Lara
07-28-2005, 01:40 PM
It operates in much the same way the VT[4] video keyer works: it's on preview bus, and you can cut between Program sources while its active.

jsanfilippo
07-28-2005, 01:53 PM
Paul,

Is this a hardware limitation of the VT card that can't be overcome?

Is there NO WAY to change the software so that this can be in the DSK??

As I've said before, and I think those following this thread indicate too, this is such a basic feature that the church community, at least, needs!!!

I would be willing to wait several months to purchase my VT if it meant that this would work in the DSK.

Please comment. I am very disappointed. I have been led to believe by everything said up to this point that it would work as I, and jcamp, have been explaining. And it's taken ALOT of poking and prodding to realize that I was misinformed up to this point. What gives? :confused:

Like jcamp, if you can make it work like this, I will provide steaks from Omaha Steaks - and that's not to be sneered at either! (Yes, I'm a Nebraskan, where the steaks are amazing, not a native Torontonian). Now the beer that I send along with that - Alexender Keith's Pale Ale from Novia Scotia - the BEST that Canada has to offer! :)

Paul Lara
07-28-2005, 03:16 PM
Is this a hardware limitation of the VT card that can't be overcome? Is there NO WAY to change the software so that this can be in the DSK?

I'm not a programmer, so I can't comment if there is no way; it is just not implemented that way in 4.5.


I have been led to believe by everything said up to this point that it would work as I, and jcamp, have been explaining. And it's taken ALOT of poking and prodding to realize that I was misinformed up to this point. What gives? :confused:

I don't know. I don't think I said anything that would have mislead you, did I?

imagodei
07-28-2005, 05:41 PM
Paul,

I think the question needs to be asked then, why did the functionality of the VGA capture change? In VT4, when VGA capture is running, it is selectable in the DSK. But, in VT4.5, you're saying that you're adding networkability to the VGA capture (ie: another computer networked to the VT4), but you're taking away the ability to pipe it into to the DSK? That doesn't make any sense to me at all... Why in the world would you "update" a software, and take away some of it's capabilities?

I severely hope that you're wrong in this manner, though I'm sure you're not. It just doesn't make any sense to me that your company would take away something that's already there.

kirkmorger
07-28-2005, 06:02 PM
Same computer VGA capture is still there and has not changed (and it can still be a DSK source).

imagodei
07-28-2005, 07:37 PM
I'm aware that it's still there on VT4... I'm asking about 4.5--why would they add (in the same utility, ie: VGA capture) the ability to use other computers, but make it so that they're unselectable in the DSK, as Paul stated thus:


It operates in much the same way the VT[4] video keyer works: it's on preview bus, and you can cut between Program sources while its active.

That to me says that they're adding the ability to use other computers, but taking away the DSK possibility.

J_Camp
07-28-2005, 08:19 PM
It operates in much the same way the VT[4] video keyer works: it's on preview bus, and you can cut between Program sources while its active.Thanks for the answers. I appreciate it.

GeorgeMiller
07-29-2005, 12:17 PM
We are currently moving into a much larger church in the Toronto Area and also would be buying a VT4.X system to go along with our VT3 system IF you could put the VGA in the DSK. We too would NEED that. (It is a must)

my two cents worth...

Jim_C
07-29-2005, 02:10 PM
Same computer VGA capture is still there and has not changed (and it can still be a DSK source).


There is the answer.

Kirk is now a NT guy.

jsanfilippo
07-29-2005, 05:30 PM
We are currently moving into a much larger church in the Toronto Area and also would be buying a VT4.X system to go along with our VT3 system IF you could put the VGA in the DSK. We too would NEED that. (It is a must)

my two cents worth...

George, considering we are both in Toronto, I would be interested in talking/meeting with you personally regarding your Newtek system, how you utilize it, etc.

Would you be willing to drop me an email and have some discussion?

stevestrike
08-15-2005, 06:44 PM
Paul,

Is this a hardware limitation of the VT card that can't be overcome?

Is there NO WAY to change the software so that this can be in the DSK??

As I've said before, and I think those following this thread indicate too, this is such a basic feature that the church community, at least, needs!!!

I would be willing to wait several months to purchase my VT if it meant that this would work in the DSK.

Please comment. I am very disappointed. I have been led to believe by everything said up to this point that it would work as I, and jcamp, have been explaining. And it's taken ALOT of poking and prodding to realize that I was misinformed up to this point. What gives? :confused:

Sorry to revive my old thread, but count me in that same camp as the others. Not by anyone here, but I was led to believe that the VT4 could use any input as a DSK--hence our purchase of the product to do exactly what others have been talking about. I don't believe Newtek has been forthright about this limitation in it's advertising, and I'd venture a guess that there are more than a few misinformed dealers as well.

I want to put song lyrics over live camera shots. The song lyrics come from a 2nd computer running MediaShout/PowerPoint/Other presentation software. It looks like the 4.5 update won't do what we need either.

mikkowilson
08-15-2005, 07:52 PM
Unfortunatly the Video Switcher in the VT is barly any more advanced than that in a Pansonic AVE-5 or MX-30/50 video mixer.

It's still only a 2 input card to the TBC. so the DSK can only be an internal souce.

..If only the VT could use the Genlock input as a 3rd input for DSK or proper KEY transitions!

- Mikko

jsanfilippo
08-15-2005, 08:27 PM
Unfortunatly the Video Switcher in the VT is barly any more advanced than that in a Pansonic AVE-5 or MX-30/50 video mixer.

It's still only a 2 input card to the TBC. so the DSK can only be an internal souce.

..If only the VT could use the Genlock input as a 3rd input for DSK or proper KEY transitions!

- Mikko

Thanks Mikko, for your input on this. I had my suspicions. I find it ironic, if this is true, that it took someone OUTSIDE of Newtek to finally offer an explanation. Paul - I must say that I'm a bit disappointed - this would seem like a pretty basic piece of information and explanation... why could this not be passed on directly from Newtek?

mikkowilson
08-15-2005, 11:32 PM
Now don't get me wrong.. The VT is very impressive in what it does, and to most of the problems there are workarounds.
And hey, for the price it can't be beat.

Also, the 2 inputs to the TBC, also expand into the 2 inputs ot the digitizers.. each signal that is digitized will then need more processor power to handle.. and this gets prohibativly CPU intensive very quickly.

But it would be nice to see things like this exaplined a little better in the product litriture.
Then again it is about sales, and really, Everyone else's video mixer will do chroma keying, and so you say yours does. If you said that it couldn't properly do chroma key in a live environment, then people would go elsewhere to gear that didn't say that. (Even though for most of them [in the same category] it's the same thing anyway.

Just like notice how EVERY editing system is "Real time" now?

If you want it to work like the real thing.. then unfortunatly you must get the real thing. Especially when we are talking about million dollar studios.

Ok, enough about the rant, I need to go so I can put a proposal in to buy a VT[4] for a high school who need it for a small studio with a green screen.

- Mikko

Paul Lara
08-16-2005, 09:14 AM
I was led to believe that the VT4 could use any input as a DSK

I apologize for any misunderstanding, but VT has only allowed internally-generated sources (CG, DDR, Aura, etc) as DSK. It's always been that way.


I want to put song lyrics over live camera shots. The song lyrics come from a 2nd computer running MediaShout/PowerPoint/Other presentation software. It looks like the 4.5 update won't do what we need either.

Sure it will!

You can key those lyrics over live cameras as they sent to the projector.
Note on the VGA tab there are keyer controls just for the projector

J_Camp
08-16-2005, 11:06 AM
Sure it will!

You can key those lyrics over live cameras as they sent to the projector.
Note on the VGA tab there are keyer controls just for the projector
But you can't use transitions between cameras, you can only cut, but hot punching across the program bus, correct?

What is this projector out?

imagodei
08-16-2005, 11:09 AM
No, with the new iVGA, you have complete control of your preview and program bus, as long as you use your secondary display on a dual head card to send it out over VGA to the projector...

Under preferences, when you tell it span which monitors, you now have new choices like Monitor 1, VGA out on Monitor 2. When you choose those and open up the VGA window in VT, you now have keying options... key as you like and click the Send to Projector click box....

The VGA signal is keyed over the program out, but only on your VGA send...

It works great, I ran it through it's paces a little earlier...

Randy Rouse
08-16-2005, 12:13 PM
Is it possible to add an additional display adaptor to restore the dual display set-up that many of us use for live work while retaining the advantage of VGA out.

Thanks

imagodei
08-16-2005, 12:18 PM
Yeah, I currently run a dual head 256 MB Radeon 9600 XT and have a secondary PCI card with about 64 MB that I run a third monitor on. I only get the VT background on the one monitor, but I can drag modules over onto the 3rd monitor with no problem...

stevestrike
08-18-2005, 06:18 PM
Yeah, I currently run a dual head 256 MB Radeon 9600 XT and have a secondary PCI card with about 64 MB that I run a third monitor on. I only get the VT background on the one monitor, but I can drag modules over onto the 3rd monitor with no problem...
So it's not possible to designate the 3rd monitor as the Projector out, and keep a true dual-display going?

imagodei
08-18-2005, 06:33 PM
Not that I saw on the options. I only saw that you could use Monitors 1 or 2... but it still has the same functionality...

marzenta
08-22-2005, 06:46 AM
And what about iVGA keying options? I noticed that in the VGA capture application (the one running in the VT machine) there are various keying options that make possible to build an alpha-channel image selectable and fully funcional in DSK. Why not in the new iVGA module executable in separate PC's?

P.S. I've seen that there is a parameter in the .cfg file (newtekrtme.cfg if I remember well) that if modified from the default value, permits to make all sources selectable in DSK, obvious that if the source doesn't have an alpha channel the result is unuseful.

(forgive my poor english)

Bye!

stevestrike
08-22-2005, 10:03 AM
P.S. I've seen that there is a parameter in the .cfg file (newtekrtme.cfg if I remember well) that if modified from the default value, permits to make all sources selectable in DSK, obvious that if the source doesn't have an alpha channel the result is unuseful.What? What what what?!?!

This would be great, but sounds impossible.

Martin Dolbear
08-22-2005, 10:45 PM
We use an outboard computer running powerpoint to key in words over background footage running on a DDR (or any other source). If all your powerpoint lyric screens are full white letters on a full black background, set your default transition to "smooth fade" on the pp computer and use the keyer on your VT set to linear black, the words come and go nicely. Better yet, we find that if you set your "null" screen (let's say screen #1 of your powerpoint lineup) to just a notch above black (R=20, G=20, B=20) and carefully set your linear black key on the VT to just key out full black (R=0, G=0, B=0) then you can use pp screen #1 to mask over the background by hitting 1 (then enter) from anywhere in the pp lineup and fade out the words and the background simultaneously.

This bit would be even sharper using iVGA but, sadly, the iVGA application "underscans" the outboard computer signal and will not cover the background completely when projected. It leaves a rather large "border" of the background image on all four sides. A little better math figuring the final screen size from the iVGA app would make this a very usable feature.

Martin Dolbear

JasonC
08-24-2005, 12:55 PM
I'll add in my own 2 cents on this issue. I VERY MUCH need to be able to DSK from the IVGA utility. I really thought that that feature was a part of the new upgrade. Like others here the ability to DSK words from another computer onto live images via the standard program out is a huge bonus. I realize that we can use an additional VGA output to our projectors but in our case that doesn't help us as all our systems are setup to use the program out. Considering we send the program out to a variety of places, using the VGA out and converting to SD video would be a pretty big hassle.

It seems to me that this should be something that is possible since you can send the output to a VGA card why not to the program out.

Help us please NT!

mikkowilson
08-24-2005, 07:11 PM
I think (read: fear) the way that iVGA keys over the VGA output is by using the alpha keying allready included in every video card!

When you play a video clip on a computer, it is actually creating a windown in the normal desktop (using the Alpha channel) and then sqeezin the video into that hole. - Notice when you move a media player window how the actual video lags behind a bit.. sometimes even untill you un-click!

My theory is that the VGA output of video toaster is actually playing a RTV (or some other proprietery format) stream back on the fly in full screen. And then iVGA just outputs on the same monitor, with user selectabel controls for keying - to control where iVGA then cuts the hole for the video with the Alpha channel.
This way it doesn't actually ever have the signals keyed untill they leave your video card.

This would require nothing new from the VT[4] hardware, which would make sence as it was created as a software upgrade. It's just controlling your video card, not your VT hardware.
It could also explain why iVGA keying is underscanned on the VGA output.

To do a DSK from iVGA, one woudl have to figure out a way of turning that (raw) iVGA stream into a video stream that coudl be available as a DDR is, not just as another source that can be routed into one of the 2 channels of the TBC.


It's just a theory, but I think that's preaty much how it's done.


- Mikko

marzenta
08-25-2005, 01:08 AM
The theory seems good, but my hope that one day will be possible to do a DSK from a keyed iVGA comes from the fact that it's already possible to do that with the internal VGA captured image: the VGA capture utility (the one executable in the VT machine) has already the keying options; I don't uderstand why they haven't just copied that functionality in iVGA utility, in order to transmit to the VT machine an already keyed image. I don't think it's a problem of transfer rate if a Gigabit link is used.

Daniele

Martin Dolbear
08-25-2005, 12:31 PM
It could also explain why iVGA keying is underscanned on the VGA output.

- Mikko

The iVGA source is NOT only underscanned on the iVGA output. If you assign any iVGA input to a switcher channel you will see that it's underscanned on your VTvision monitor (set VTvision to see the whole screen by selecting the underscan button on the VTvision control panel). It's the output from the client iVGA app that's setting the too small screen. It seems like a small math adjustment would solve the underscan issue and allow this fantastic idea to be a usable reality.

Martin Dolbear

mikkowilson
08-25-2005, 05:11 PM
"The iVGA source is NOT only underscanned on the iVGA output."

Aah.. that just sounds like a assumption in the design then. If you where for example videotapign someone presenting with poerpoint and you wanted to cut away to their slides with iVGA, then this is exactly what you'd want so as not to crop the slides.

But alas, as a new feature beacomes available, so do new uses.. and new requests. I think it woudl be very usefull if there was a setting to choose over or under -scan based on the production's needs.

- Mikko

Paul Lara
08-26-2005, 08:32 AM
...as a new feature beacomes available, so do new uses.. and new requests. I think it woudl be very usefull if there was a setting to choose over or under -scan based on the production's needs.

You're quite right, Mikko.
You may send feature requests here ([email protected])

Martin Dolbear
08-31-2005, 10:07 PM
" I think it woudl be very usefull if there was a setting to choose over or under -scan based on the production's needs."

- Mikko

Since this seems like a small change of numerical values on what amounts to a tiny application (the iVGA client app), how long does this kind of adjustment usually take, Paul?

Martin Dolbear

jsanfilippo
08-31-2005, 11:43 PM
The theory seems good, but my hope that one day will be possible to do a DSK from a keyed iVGA comes from the fact that it's already possible to do that with the internal VGA captured image: the VGA capture utility (the one executable in the VT machine) has already the keying options;

I've heard about this vaguely throughout this thread - that the INTERNAL VGA Capture utility running on the VT machine is selectable in the DSK... but I've not heard much in the way of specifics about this. i don't yet have my VT 4 (or 4.5) machine... but will soon... so i can't test this out.

Can someone please comment on this feature, and how it can be used in the DSK? Is it a selectable chroma-key? Is it adjustable? Does it work well? For all of us who want to key lyrics over IMAG, how well would it work to run a lyrics program (ie mediashout) ON THE VT machine to a secondary display on the VT machine and capture that - suppose you were to setup the text to be white, with a black outline, and then a green bg.... could you then chromakey out that bg and run it to the DSK, keying it live over cuts, dissolves, DVEs, etc. How about the transitions from the lyrics program - if you fade from one screen to another, how well does that fade chromakey?

Since it's apparent that iVGA will not do for me what I need (even considering that it can key over video if running to the VGA out - I need program out!!!)... I'm hoping that I can use a little computer overhead on the VT machine and run the lyric app there, and do what so many of us in the church market at needing to do.

Martin Dolbear
09-02-2005, 08:49 AM
Here’s how we implement the iVGA feature at out church.

The iVGA app has to be installed and run on a client machine that has LAN access (direct crossover cable, or through a hub, or through a switch) to your toaster host machine. The client app can run on one or more LAN connected machines but the host can only select one at a time to be active. On the host there is an interface with a drop down menu for selecting which of the client machines will have active regard. That iVGA input is selectable to a switcher bus and can then be keyed over video using the normal keyer function and qualifications. When set up in this fashion, however, you cannot change the background key source except by direct cut which, due to buffer loading issues, is not recommended.

The better method is to use a dual head video card and set your toaster preferences condition to limiting your program to one monitor and your iVGA output to the second monitor. Feed your projector its signal from that second monitor VGA out on your video card. Now check the box for “send to VGA out” on the host iVGA app and you will allow the iVGA source to feed directly to your projector. If you have set your second monitor’s desktop to match the native resolution of your projector and also set the client computer’s resolution the same, you should see a fantastically sharp representation from that client iVGA. The host computer’s iVGA app has a separate keyer and using that allows you a high-res DSK that can still have the full function of the switcher behind it (changing camera sources, changing DDR sources, etc.).

If you then set your client computer screens to a full black background (R=0, G=0, B=0) and the host iVGA keyer to just knock out that full black, then you can set another screen (screen #1 perhaps) to just above black (R=20, G=20, B=20). If you’ve set the host iVGA keyer to just key out full black, then this screen (screen #1) can be faded to on your client app (Media Shout, PowerPoint, etc.) and it will block everything (motion background from a DDR, IMAG from a camera, etc.) from the toaster at the same time that it fades out your lyrics.

Once they fix the “underscan” screen issue for the client iVGA app the usefulness will be tremendous.

Martin Dolbear :thumbsup:

billmi
09-09-2005, 09:49 AM
Edit...
D'Oh! Should have read the whole thread before replying, I was reinventing the wheel...

jsanfilippo
12-12-2005, 07:03 PM
Time to bring this one up again.... for those that want a success story.

Here I was moaning and complaining because IVGA wouldn't do what we were asking to do.

But the solution is really quite simple, and I'm doing it now with great success.

Run Easyworship, or Mediashout, or any other similar program (even PPT - yuck!) ON THE NEWTEK computer. I've added a second graphics card (Matrox G550 PCI card) so I can do up to 4 monitors.

Set VT to only use 1 monitor. Drag some of the modules (ie DDRs or VT Visions) onto another screen - yes you can do this even though VT is only on 1 screen.

Put Easyworship (or other) control screen on a monitor (I share it with the monitor my DDRs are on), and set the Easyworship program out for a third monitor. I found 4 monitors got a bit overkill for this.

Run VGA Capture utility and select the screen you've put Easyworship program to. Set a solid colour background. Pick that colour in the chromakey colour box.

You can now select that as a DSK source.

Caution - don't try to use a transition between slides on your Easyworship program. They don't key so nicely. You can certainly use transitions between Cameras in VT, though!

This was my theory for some time, and now it's nice to see theory play out successfully!

J_Camp
12-13-2005, 12:29 PM
...what do you do with the problem that really plagues most of us: two people trying to share the same keyboard and mouse for two different purposes in a fast moving live situation???

With the way you are doing it, why not just load PNGs in a DDR and don't even fool with another program running at the same time?

jsanfilippo
12-13-2005, 04:50 PM
...what do you do with the problem that really plagues most of us: two people trying to share the same keyboard and mouse for two different purposes in a fast moving live situation???

I don't have two people trying to use it. Here's how my control room works...

CG (comp. graphics) - Has three LCD monitors, keyboard, mouse
Runs Easyworship, cues up clips for playback in DDR, fires lower thirds in another DDR, changes DSK source from Easyworship to DDR.

Director - Calls the shots

Switcher - Uses the RS-8 for all cuts and transitions

PA - Calls out cues for everyone to follow, calls countdowns to segments, records on DVCam deck, rolls anything on CD or DVD

Shader - Adusts CCUs

The only reason I could see for multiple people using the keyboard and mouse is if you don't use an RS-8.


...
With the way you are doing it, why not just load PNGs in a DDR and don't even fool with another program running at the same time?

NOT A CHANCE! Before we moved and started using VT4, we had a digital switcher and braodcast CG'er called Inscriber. It had no database to manage songs, so I had to setup every song every week. If that isn't a pain in the butt and major waste of time, I don't know what is! And the "linear" layout of Inscriber, Powerpoint, or a DDR is much more of a pain in a music environment. All of my volunteers agree - 5 minutes with Easyworship and they will never want to go back to a linear format!

J_Camp
12-13-2005, 05:14 PM
...what about those of us who have no CCUs?

JVC GY-DV500s...no CCUs. The color corrections are done on the fly with VT...there's the rub, man.

That's another reason that we need a separate machine for the CG that you would put over llive shots or pre-recorded backs.

jsanfilippo
12-13-2005, 06:19 PM
Hmmm... that IS a problem.

How about this....

See this thread... http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?t=43736

Can you assign some keyboard shortcuts to control the Proc Amp on each individual camera source? I assume you are just adjusting contrast live??

So let's say you are running 3 cameras..... that's six shortcuts....
1 - Cam 1 contrast up
2 - Cam 1 contrast down
3 - Cam 2 contrast up
etc

Then assign each of those six to a shuttlepro or some other USB programmable device.

Create a new "shader" position and just give them the shuttlepro, and give the keyboard and mouse to your CG'er and let them run Easyworship.

Would that work?

jamie

kltv
12-14-2005, 01:09 AM
Hmmm... that IS a problem.
Can you assign some keyboard shortcuts to control the Proc Amp on each individual camera source? I assume you are just adjusting contrast live??


I'm not sure you can. The documentation for the ProcAmp doesn't seem to have ToasterScript functions for adjusting those settings. Unless I am missing something...

Proc Amp
Regular Proc Amp
AdvancedSettings()
GetDefaultValueMode()
RestoreDefaults()
RestoreFactoryDefaults()
SetFollowPreview()
UpdateUserAdvancedSettings()
AutoCal75()
AutoCal100()
AutoCalAll()

Advanced Proc Amp
GetDefaultValueMode() // See note below
GlobalAll()
GlobalJustChanges()
SetFollowPreview (value)

Note: GetDefaultValueMode()
we only have defaults for the first 4 of these.

enum BobControl_Type
{ BobControl_Type_Composite,
BobControl_Type_Component,
BobControl_Type_SVideo,
BobControl_Type_ComputerSource,
BobControl_Type_Unknown,
BobControl_Audio_Type_Live,
BobControl_Audio_Type_ComputerSource,
BobControl_Audio_Type_Unknown,
BobControl_Audio_Type_Error
};

It could be you can pass values to some of those functions, but I'm not sure. Maybe AdvancedSettings() with some values for each property... I'd have to see an example or a little more info to know.

Kris