PDA

View Full Version : Scene Detect



jedbarish
07-12-2005, 06:22 AM
I had been using Premiere Pro 1.5 along with VT4. I havent really use VT4 as much as I did with PPro :( I would like to see a new feature on VT4.5 with Scene Detect to make it better post production tool for us. I dont want to capture thru PPro into AVI but it doesnt capture same quality that VT4 will do without a better hardware to assist PPro.

Any idea for this feature into VT4.5 in the future? If it is going to be integrated then it ll be more popular to do post production instead only rely on batch capture.

I am stuck with Globecaster 8000 ever since bec of lack of features with AVID or PPro editing software. If anyone interested in GC8000. Contact me :)

Jim Capillo
07-12-2005, 07:06 AM
I am stuck with Globecaster 8000 ever since bec of lack of features with AVID or PPro editing software. If anyone interested in GC8000. Contact me :)

They're still in business ? :lol: Editing with that is like using an etch-a-sketch :bangwall:

Sorry, I couldn't resist..... :jester:

PS, I still have my Trinity box if you want to put both together and anchor a REALLY large boat ! :cursin:

Brian Peterson
07-12-2005, 08:40 AM
scene detect would be a fantastic feature for capture. I'll second this requrest!

And yes Jim, Globalcaster is still terrorizing people with warranties. Thank god a friend talked me into buying a T/F instead. :twak:

Ivan
07-12-2005, 09:12 AM
VT4 comes with DV Scene Detect, it's in DVDWS.

Ivan

Brian Peterson
07-12-2005, 09:51 AM
VT4 comes with DV Scene Detect, it's in DVDWS.

I don't believe what is being talked about here is scene change detection to chapter DVDs, but a nifty little feature PPro has where all you have to do to record a tape into the computer is hit play on the deck and record in the nle. PPro will then detect where the camera operator started and stopped each time and chop the video into individual clips on your hard drive. Then you go back and delete the clips you don't need from the hard drive. It's a great way to record in after hours while your away without doing batch capture.

Ivan
07-12-2005, 10:05 AM
Have you captured DV in DVDWS? What you describe is exactly what it is doing.


Ivan

ScorpioProd
07-12-2005, 12:02 PM
Yeah, but let's be honest here, using DVD WS to capture your video so a "high end" product like VT can use it is rather a tail wagging the dog way to do it. This is something the VT should be able to do, not needing a DVD authoring program to do it.

Ivan
07-12-2005, 12:24 PM
I agree but on the other hand I could give you a long list of other features I'd like to see first since it is possible in DVDWS. Near the top of the list is DV where the audio stays in sync when captured by this "High End" product the way it does when using virtually ANY other program. I mean IMovie on the Mac is FREE and the audio stays in sync. Or how about making Tool Shed useful by allowing us to sort or manage our presets instead of sorting them by date created. Maybe make the Spreadsheet more user friendly by being able to sort by column. Anyone interested in an HD Solution or a stable and more advanced CG program?

Sorry Eugene, didn't mean to go off on you, I do agree that it would be nice to have in VT but I doubt it is at the top of the development list esspecially since VT is being marketed not as an edit box but as a switcher.

Ivan

UnCommonGrafx
07-12-2005, 12:31 PM
While I might be inclined to agree with Eugene's assessment, the original poster wanted to do this off his VT screen.
As it's a tool in VT, seems it's a pretty good answer and solution. Mayhaps that's why they haven't invested much energy in this direction as they already have a solution in their suite.
There are a lot of tools in VT that people don't know or use. Getting use out of what you already own should be encouraged, not poo poo'ed.

ScorpioProd
07-12-2005, 01:14 PM
Robert, have you EVER heard anyone from Newtek suggest using DVD WS SE for capture of DV? That that is their intention? "Suite" implies integrated solution.

Doing exclusively DV/DVCAM editing, I have frankly lived WAY too long with the workarounds required of such users with VT[4]. VT[4], already how many generations out, simply doesn't have the tools expected in any cheap DV-only NLE, as in INSIDE the NLE.

Can anyone say "print-to-tape"? This is a normal, standard, expected feature of any DV NLE that simply does NOT exist in the limited DV suppport world of the VT[4]. I have to use an outside utility to send my DV files via firewire to tape! How riddiculus is that for a "studio-in-a-box???" And don't even mention the "DV utility" included with VT[4], what a piece of crap that is, Microsoft never intended that for real use, yet there it is as the actual "Newtek provided" way to do output of DV files? That's sad.

And before anyone mentions the "real-time" firewire output from VT-Edit, HA! That's the only feature of any program that can BSOD my super-stable host system. You don't hear people talking about that feature much, perhaps with good reason. I certainly can't use that feature here.

Ivan, no offense taken at all, you are TOTALLY right on those features. What I wouldn't give to have Type-2 DV hold A/V sync when captured by me in VT[4], like EVERY other NLE or DV utility I've tried on this same system. If Type-1 didn't work for me, which it does, I would have had to leave the VT world years ago.

"I doubt it is at the top of the development list esspecially since VT is being marketed not as an edit box but as a switcher." -- Now THAT is the real problem for users that need the features I do. :mad:

In no way are these things that Newtek can't do if they wanted to, I have personally worked with a number of Newtek engineers on solving problems and bugs, and they are very smart and dedicated and certainly can do it, the problem is what they are told by managment to do.

UnCommonGrafx
07-12-2005, 01:40 PM
Well Eugene, yes, this was told to me by someone there.

Not interested in a fight, though the day has me primed for one; but it seems to me that you might be. ;)

I want other things in VT, too, but I find I can do what I want, or need to, with the tool set I have and any 'workarounds' are welcomed to get the job done. That is to say, barring buying other apps to truly 'workaround' to a useful solution, I'm willing to do the workarounds. And for gosh sakes, 'workarounds' are not evil; they are a creative mind getting the work done.

For all the other issues mentioned, those are not the thrust of this thread. I agree that the issues are real but not something I care to comment on, at the moment.

Ivan
07-12-2005, 02:22 PM
I didn't mean to open such a can of worms here but as long as it's open, might as well dig in. I really like VT as an edit suite but Newtek does not seem to be working on the edit bay as much as could be and though not ignoring it seems to be neglecting a large part of it's base. I know that even though I don't like FCP as much, my next major computer purchase will likely be a G5. I already have a dual G4 and with the added features that come in the FCP 5 production bundle ($1300) like Live Type, Motion, and DVDSP4 with distributed rendering not to mention the multicam feature in FCP, I think the writing is on the wall. I started and still run the TCVT User group but at the last meeting I found myself answering many of the questions about what system to purchase to meet all the needs including HD, with "buy a Mac". Now I am not a Mac fan but I want the best tool for the job. Without some significant changes soon VT will be losing that slot in favor of FCP.

Ivan

cholo
07-12-2005, 04:54 PM
I have used and enjoyed the real time firewire output in VT4 with no problems whatsoever. I use free scenalyzer to detect my DV scenes while I have a cup of coffee. And final cut pro? Try it, I dare you. Just don't upgrade your quicktime or you'll have a headache for a day or so. And where are final cut pro's curves or livetype's? Linear DVE motion is so 80's it just makes me weep.

ScorpioProd
07-12-2005, 10:24 PM
Well Eugene, yes, this was told to me by someone there.

OH, OK, I'm just surprised, I'd never heard them suggest that before. I know some users did use that method, but I never thought that was Newtek's intent. Interesting way to do it... Sort of like the meaning of "MPEG-2 encoding built-in" with VT[4]... ;)



Not interested in a fight, though the day has me primed for one; but it seems to me that you might be. ;)

Nah, not you man, I just do get sick of some of the missing things in VT[4] for editors, especially DV editors, especially when all that's being sung about is TriCaster, and all its live fun. And this method still feels like a workaround to me.



I want other things in VT, too, but I find I can do what I want, or need to, with the tool set I have and any 'workarounds' are welcomed to get the job done. That is to say, barring buying other apps to truly 'workaround' to a useful solution, I'm willing to do the workarounds. And for gosh sakes, 'workarounds' are not evil; they are a creative mind getting the work done.

It's just I love many features of VT[4], but there are significant things not there for what I do.



For all the other issues mentioned, those are not the thrust of this thread. I agree that the issues are real but not something I care to comment on, at the moment.

Agreed, so to the thread's point, yes, scene detection would be a cool feature inside VT[4].

ScorpioProd
07-12-2005, 10:29 PM
I have used and enjoyed the real time firewire output in VT4 with no problems whatsoever. I use free scenalyzer to detect my DV scenes while I have a cup of coffee. And final cut pro? Try it, I dare you. Just don't upgrade your quicktime or you'll have a headache for a day or so. And where are final cut pro's curves or livetype's? Linear DVE motion is so 80's it just makes me weep.

It might be due to you being on XP and me on Win2k, but for me, though I can play a project out the firewire live, if I'm super careful, if I do anything else, like scrub the project or blow on the computer too hard or something, it will start stuttering and then BSOD. So, I can't trust it to handle even straight playback based on those issues, it's not worth the risk.

Which "free scenealyzer" is this?

mgrusin
07-12-2005, 10:30 PM
Another workaround (does that make me codependent?) is WinDV (http://windv.mourek.cz/) , a tiny capture/export utility that will split incoming DV files into separate takes if desired.

I wish Newtek would hire 100 more programmers, AND lower the price of VT. :rolleyes:

-MG.

ScorpioProd
07-12-2005, 10:40 PM
I didn't mean to open such a can of worms here but as long as it's open, might as well dig in. I really like VT as an edit suite but Newtek does not seem to be working on the edit bay as much as could be and though not ignoring it seems to be neglecting a large part of it's base. I know that even though I don't like FCP as much, my next major computer purchase will likely be a G5. I already have a dual G4 and with the added features that come in the FCP 5 production bundle ($1300) like Live Type, Motion, and DVDSP4 with distributed rendering not to mention the multicam feature in FCP, I think the writing is on the wall. I started and still run the TCVT User group but at the last meeting I found myself answering many of the questions about what system to purchase to meet all the needs including HD, with "buy a Mac". Now I am not a Mac fan but I want the best tool for the job. Without some significant changes soon VT will be losing that slot in favor of FCP.

Ivan

Nah, no can of worms here, HDV hasn't even been mentioned! ;)

Newtek's in a typical business situation, they have to do what's best for Newtek, as they should, I don't begrudge them that.

Thing is, the only way more R&D for any part of the VT to happen is to get more cash coming in. Newtek's strength has ALWAYS been live production. Remember the infamous statement to the press a year ago at NAB about "not being able to compete" with the big boys in NLEing. Well, TriCaster is the low hanging fruit that is a perfect market for Newtek to go after, and they are doing it quite well.

As for the "large base" of NLE users... Well, that is the old base of VT users, at least as represented by a large portion of the active on-line people, but I would say over the last year the influx of new users are all the LIVE people. So because of all that, that's where the development has been.

This isn't a knock against VT[4] 4.5, but in all honesty, I don't see any new feature in it that's useful for me, beyond bug fixes, which are NOT features. That's just the way it is for someone who's a DV editor on the VT. TriCaster features ported to VT[4] don't excite me.

BTW, I am so happy that my India Pro CG still works! :)

But anyway, back to topic of thread, scene detection would be cool! :)

ScorpioProd
07-12-2005, 10:44 PM
Another workaround (does that make me codependent?) is WinDV (http://windv.mourek.cz/) , a tiny capture/export utility that will split incoming DV files into separate takes if desired.

I wish Newtek would hire 100 more programmers, AND lower the price of VT. :rolleyes:

-MG.

Hmmh... Well, WinDV actually is my DV utility that I use for all my outputing to tape of DV files, but I've never tried it for input. Is it actually scene detection or is it using time code breaks or something else?

Actually, for DV output, WinDV is a rock solid program for me.

mgrusin
07-12-2005, 10:48 PM
I believe it detects timecode breaks. If you stop and start the camera, WinDV will create a new clip. Nice pattern-based file naming capability as well.

-MG.

ScorpioProd
07-12-2005, 11:16 PM
Cool, I'll give it a try. But technically with regenerative time code, there shouldn't actually be time code breaks.

What settings do you have set in it for the "discontinuity threashold", cause again, I don't see how I would have discontinuities, unless it's not actually in the "time code" but some hidden real "time" values in the data stream somewhere...

mgrusin
07-12-2005, 11:57 PM
I have Discontinuity Threshold set to 1 sec, max AVI at 117000 (1h 5m), every Nth frame at 1, and I capture as Type-2. You are probably right that it is detecting a day/time timestamp rather than the linear timecode for breaks. It is able to put this data into the filename if desired, so I can only assume it's a normal part of the data stream.

-MG.

Randall Chesbro
07-13-2005, 06:30 AM
just get sceanalizer. I paid i think $40 for it many years ago.
works great. it will do sceen detection from time breaks or you can set it up for sceen changes. and you can get it to capture second audio for those that use Xl1 cameras. Ill use it on a second computer a lot to capture to a firewire drive while im working on another project. then pull it onto my video drive when i need it. works great with the VT system.
I dont see this as a work around. it save me time by letting me work while capturing hours of new footage if im doing a wedding it could be 3 to 6 hours. thats a lot of time to tie up the vt machine just for capturing.

I think the reason vt4 is not working good with firerwire is those that are still useing Win2000. I used that and had nothing but truoble with firewire. they didnt support that too well. with xp pro no problems (with that).

Ivan
07-13-2005, 09:20 AM
The firewire problem is not limited to W2k.

Ivan

cholo
07-13-2005, 11:41 AM
Free scenalyzer is hidden somewhere in the scenalyzer page :) It's a very rudimentary version but it works for me.

bradl
07-16-2005, 02:25 AM
...Just don't upgrade your quicktime or you'll have a headache for a day or so. QT 7 is reported as fixed with Tiger. Will find out in a week or so.
And where are final cut pro's curves or livetype's? Linear DVE motion is so 80's it just makes me weep.Well FCP does have ease in/out on the positioner and bezier on the scale, but when you are changing both it is nearly impossible to match the 'curve' of the two without the wiggles. Why they didn't allow bezier on position I don't know.

Eugene, if you love India, you would freak on how much better LiveType is, although it still has room for improvement. Timeline integration is sweet!

Randall Chesbro
07-16-2005, 06:47 AM
I thought india was live type looks the same to me you just dont get all the templates in live type.?

Tod Cole
07-16-2005, 11:50 AM
Robert, have you EVER heard anyone from Newtek suggest using DVD WS SE for capture of DV? That that is their intention? "Suite" implies integrated solution.

Doing exclusively DV/DVCAM editing, I have frankly lived WAY too long with the workarounds required of such users with VT[4]. VT[4], already how many generations out, simply doesn't have the tools expected in any cheap DV-only NLE, as in INSIDE the NLE.

Can anyone say "print-to-tape"? This is a normal, standard, expected feature of any DV NLE that simply does NOT exist in the limited DV suppport world of the VT[4]. I have to use an outside utility to send my DV files via firewire to tape! How riddiculus is that for a "studio-in-a-box???" And don't even mention the "DV utility" included with VT[4], what a piece of crap that is, Microsoft never intended that for real use, yet there it is as the actual "Newtek provided" way to do output of DV files? That's sad.

And before anyone mentions the "real-time" firewire output from VT-Edit, HA! That's the only feature of any program that can BSOD my super-stable host system. You don't hear people talking about that feature much, perhaps with good reason. I certainly can't use that feature here.

Ivan, no offense taken at all, you are TOTALLY right on those features. What I wouldn't give to have Type-2 DV hold A/V sync when captured by me in VT[4], like EVERY other NLE or DV utility I've tried on this same system. If Type-1 didn't work for me, which it does, I would have had to leave the VT world years ago.

"I doubt it is at the top of the development list esspecially since VT is being marketed not as an edit box but as a switcher." -- Now THAT is the real problem for users that need the features I do. :mad:

In no way are these things that Newtek can't do if they wanted to, I have personally worked with a number of Newtek engineers on solving problems and bugs, and they are very smart and dedicated and certainly can do it, the problem is what they are told by managment to do.


OMG Eugene just vented for the first time, I printed out this thread. LOL Sorry couldnt resist. :thumbsup:

ScorpioProd
07-16-2005, 03:33 PM
Hehehe... Oh, I vent occassionally, just search the archives. :p

What I really want is VT to keep up with me as I move to 16:9 work and HDV work... I really think this is more important than people realize, IF Newtek wants to keep the NLE part of the market.

There are currently NO NLEs that I know of on the market that don't support HDV, except for the VT.

And I assure you, I LOVE the results I'm currently getting with my Z1. Once I find out what's holding up the HDV version of the FireStore FS-4 Pro, which I'll find out next week at DV Expo, I'll be ready to start doing my long form work in HDV.

In all honesty, some of the things Newtek's developed are just happening too late. For instance, the live firewire out, if it worked right for me, would have been VERY useful to me a couple years ago, but frankly, since 95% of my work goes to DVD since about when VT[4] came out, it doesn't have much use anymore.

Timing is everything.

UnCommonGrafx
07-16-2005, 08:09 PM
Stick around, my friend.

Eugene vents often and it's why we appreciate him. He expressess what ought to be with technical prowess that I couldn't approach. Nor other 'normal' users. He understands the VT from a perspective most of us have no ideal: the electrical perspective.

Eugene ought to be taken into the vt fold and just USED for all he's worth.;)

Inebriated, I admit and state, but Eugene has ... knowledge.

He vents often. HDV is a waste, I say, and thus we disagree. HD, though, must come to VT. On that, we agree: sooner than later. Particularly on the NewTek innovation dime.


OMG Eugene just vented for the first time, I printed out this thread. LOL Sorry couldnt resist. :thumbsup: