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vee
06-24-2005, 12:21 AM
Fellow Macers,

I need a new machine, simple question. Should I buy a boxx or a 2.7.

Before you give me !tihS, I've been a loyal mac user since Mac Plus.

Not trying to start trouble, but I just don't know if I should invest in what looks like a dead end G5 platform, or should I get a jump on the whole "intel inside thing"?

Any thoughts, anyone care to predict if this transition will be a light drizzle or a sunnami?

calico
06-24-2005, 05:34 AM
i did it [switch-mac to pc] two years ago.
i haven't turned on my pc last 18 months.
i'm working on my five years old g4.

that's my switch story

Darth Mole
06-24-2005, 05:52 AM
A dual 2.7 is hardly dead-end. As of today you can buy hundreds of programs and you'll still be able to sell it on for a decent sum in two years time when you feel like moving to a MacIntel. (Some may disagree on this last point, but I've never had problems selling my second-hand Macs, Power Macs, G3s or G4s.)

Bear in mind that for the majority of Mac users, this upcoming switch to Intel processors is neither of any interest or of any worry. Most users just don't care, many won't even know. And any developer who turns their back on an installed user base of some 20 million PowerPC-based Macs is just plain stupid. Macs are selling as well now as they have for ages:

http://www.forbes.com/markets/2005/06/23/0623automarketscan02.html?partner=yahootix&referrer=

Depending whose benchmarks you believe - and if you care - the Boxx is probably slightly faster at rendering. But it doesn't run OS X. Or iLife. You pays your money and you makes your choice...

vee
06-24-2005, 07:42 AM
Darth,

Tell me your gut instincs on this. If the mac is going to be basically a pc box, do you think that apple will force mac developers to taylor their software to OS X, or the other way round, Apple will be forced to taylor OS X to run pc Apps nativly.

Based on his past actions I'm thinking that, just maybe Jobs is going to sacrafice us 20 mill for the (20 mill is 2% of what?) hoards of potental pc custumers. If this senerio is any where correct, we will be left out in the cold with our aging OX S and OS 9 apps and forced to upgrade to there pc compatible versions? Or maybe run the OS X apps in some-kind of OS X emulator for the INTEL/Mac!

I'm just thinking if I'm going to be buying PC apps anyway why wait, anyway I look at it PC or IntelMac 2006 will be a year of constant hellish upgrading and tweeking. It took me 2 years to complete my switch from OS 9 to OS X (and I still can only run some Apps in OS 9).

I'm getting old and tired, I don't need another 2 years of search and replace all those little (and big, I don't see Quark doing anything fast, no matter how simple it is!) OS X apps that don't make the swift Intel/Mac change.

On the other hand I also dread having to buy everything from scratch for a PC (apps that just might run on an IntelMac?).

Jobs is looking out for the long-term well fare of Apple ( 2-3 yrs down the road), but I can't help but feel the short term is going to be nasty?

Which hhelll is worse Boxx box or Mac box? Tell me how you envision this 2006-2007 transition period.

eblu
06-24-2005, 07:49 AM
i just purchased a dual 2 Ghz G5. I am extremely happy with its performance. Most of thats is because I opted for Lots of ram, a 23" monitor, and the slightly higher end Graphics card.

Apple moving to intel is just an extension of what apple has been saying all along, MHZ doesn't matter. I know I know. it matters for rendering speed, but thats why they are moving to Intel. so that it doesn't matter for rendering speed, so you can get over it now. But thats not what I'm talking about. what I'm talking about is that Apple makes the product you use. You use it because it works the way you like it to work. They want you to have the fastest computer, they broke down and paid for IBMs new facility so that you can have the fastest, but you don't. They don't like that, but they primarily want to make the "BEST" not the fastest.

so moving to intel... negates the MHZ problem, but doesn't give apple an advantage... MHZ doesn't matter. Apple still makes an awesome machine that (in my opinion of course) is a better experience, and therefore a more productive machine.

if all you are concerned with is speed, buy a pc. its faster than an SGI, a mac, the venerable Amiga, etc... if you are concerned with being able to work, consider the other factors. each person has to figure it out for themselves. for me, its a mac.

the G5 may not be around too much longer, but its still a fantastic Processor, quite capable, and its not by any means "undermined" or "dead end" by the move to intel. You can safely assume at least 4-6 years of active dev and support for the G5, and lets face it, a computer in what we do, is only really worth keeping for 3-4 years.

Lamont
06-24-2005, 10:57 AM
It's really up to you. Look at what software you use, look at the OS and hardware, then decide. Both platforms have pros and cons. But the Boxx.. geeze, not really worth it price:power ratio. I'd make my own.

My personal take would be PC. I used to use Mac, but it turned into a $3000 50lbs MP3 player. That's my switch story.

You already posted in a Mac forum, might as well get the Mac. Your fate has been decided!!

Darth Mole
06-24-2005, 12:06 PM
I'm not a developer; no idea whether coders will write for Intel on PC and then recompile for Mac or vice versa (or if they even can). I do know a lot of developers like the Mac as a dev platform - maybe others can shed some light.

Frankly, I don't much care. As long as software comes out and runs on my machine I'll be happy.

Since you're in the LW forum, I figure you'll be mainly running LW - and as far as I know, LW will continue to be developed no matter what CPU the OS is running on. NewTek has stated that they're moving dev over to XCode from CodeWarrior (or whatever), which means that future versions can be compiled for both PPC and Intel. Eventually, I'm sure development houses will stop clicking on the 'Build for PPC' button, but this is years away.

I have a dual 2GHz machine and I was keen to buy a new Mac. Currently I have no plans to - not because of the Intel shift but because the move from dual 2 to dual 2.7 isn't enough to warrant the cost. However, if Jobs and co. surprise us all with a dual, dual-core PPC running at some scary speed, then I'll happily drop some cash on it tomorrow, knowing full-well that I've got years of life left in the machine, that the shift to Intel will actually take place last for desktop computers, that PPC development will still continue for the forseable, and that - given I switch Macs every 18 months to 3 years - this is a great timetable for me to upgrade to maybe a 2nd revision Intel machine in, say, 2008 or 9.

Thing is, if you buy a PC now and buy Wintel software, that software won't (to my knowledge) EVER run on a Mac - except in native Windows mode. So why ever bother buying an Intel Mac?

To be honest, I'm not sure I can really plan two years ahead, let alone be worried of what may or may not occur between now and then!

Ultimately (as it always does) it comes down to this simple question: do you want to work in OS X or Windows XP/Longwait? If you find Microsoft's painfully under-developed interface a joy, then go buy a cheap PC and join the throngs of barely-satisfied customers. If not... www.apple.com/store

:)

Darth Mole
06-24-2005, 12:17 PM
P.S. I am utterly biased. I have been forced to use PCs at work from lowly 286 to modern Media Centers. I loathe them. I hate the filing system, the hamfisted animated icons, the 'My First PC' GUI design, even the way the cursor moves. I won't even start on the security issues or Microsft's general demeanour towards the rest of the computing world.

When Apple stop making Macs is the day I stop using a computer. I dunno, I'll take up woodworking or painting or something.

(Please bear this in mind when taking any advice fom this person...)

parm
06-24-2005, 03:38 PM
I've just bought a heavily discounted dual 2.5 ghz G5, from the Apple refurb store. After adding 4 gigs of Ram from crucial, and costing in an ATI X800 card. Its still cheaper than the off the shelf 2.7 machine.

That should do me until all the inevitable teething problems with the switch to Intel settle down. I'm pretty sure 3 to 4 years use.

All the current software runs really well on the ppc, and for the next few years x- code will ensure that software performs on both.

Remember, What ever you buy today. Windows or Apple, they will probably both look pretty dated in 3 or 4 years time.

My advice, snap up a bargain basement 2.5 ghz machine if you can, and stick with the best OS around.

Parm

Darth Mole
06-24-2005, 04:48 PM
Pretty decent advice: in percentage terms the 2.7 is only an 8% increase in speed - which, in most cases, would correlate to a similar decrease in render times - ie, not much.

vee
06-26-2005, 05:29 PM
Hey,

Thanks for your thoughts. I have decided to build a pc in the short term.
I don't want to outlay a bunch of cash in such an unknowing mac evironment.
And I don't want to fully commit to a pc situation right now, either. So I think a 1500-2000 dollar build it yourself pc should do me fine until apple makes public it's intentions.

By christmas we should all know some (or all) of the following to be true/false concerning apple;

1) IntelMacs will run OS X apps AND pc apps
2) Pc's will run OS X
3) IntelMacs will be able to use any proccesor (intel or AMD)
4) Older G5's will be able to upgrade to Intel/AMD proccesors (like the ones the developers have now)
5) OS 9 apps will run on the IntelMac

Honestly a year or 2 from now I wouldn't mind having a dual core/dual proccesor machine running OS X, hope it's a Mac, but if not… screw it.

vee
06-26-2005, 05:34 PM
You already posted in a Mac forum, might as well get the Mac. Your fate has been decided!!

I only postd in the Mac forum becouse I'm a mac user and I am sure any long time Mac user that is in the market for a new machine would have some concerns given the current situation. Just wanted to see where the other Mac users are at on this.

eblu
06-30-2005, 07:31 AM
[QUOTE=vee]
...I don't want to outlay a bunch of cash in such an unknowing mac evironment....
...By christmas we should all know some (or all) of the following to be true/false concerning apple...

1) IntelMacs will run OS X apps AND pc apps
2) Pc's will run OS X
3) IntelMacs will be able to use any proccesor (intel or AMD)
4) Older G5's will be able to upgrade to Intel/AMD proccesors (like the ones the developers have now)
5) OS 9 apps will run on the IntelMac
QUOTE]

lets see, where to start with this one? The assumptions you've made here are based on misinformation.
for instance, we already know that
1. "intel macs" won't run PC apps Natively out of the box. go buy some sort of Windows emulation software
2. PCs WILL NOT RUN OSX! Apple feels they need to control the hardware to avoid sticking the user with a crappy experience. I happen to agree. You may get it to go, but the result will Not be a Mac, it will be a hobby.
3. Number three is a waste of time to even think about.
4. g5's upgrading to intel processors? Not gonna happen. Its crazy to even suggest it, and ALL of the information we have, makes this clear. For instance, pin outs on the G5... not even remotely compatible with the Intel processors.
5.read my Lips: NOTHING FROM OS 9 WILL RUN ON AN INTEL PROCESSOR, it must first be converted in some way, and if that was gonna happen at all, chances are it would have been done by now.

the biggest fallacy I see though is the "unknowing mac environment." You are misinterpreting rumors, and ignoring real hard facts. you want to believe that the G5 is end-of-lifed, that the current platform as is, is dead. This is not the case. True, Apple is moving to intel and the g5 WILL be gone, a footnote in technology history. But as of right now, Apple HAS Not Moved to Intel. And the G5 is the Only processor available in a mac. Its selling in volume. Theres nothing unknown, theres Nothing vague, and the value and performance of a G5 has not dropped one iota. The intel-mac switch is said to take 4 years to complete. after that, industry experts reasonably expect 10 MORE YEARS of support for G5s. It is generally accepted that a computer purchased today has a 4 year life expectancy at the outside. There is no thin ice, the sky is not falling, and your remarks are incredibly pre-mature.

The Intel based Mac will have less in common with a IBM PC CLONE than you seem to hope, and it will Still be a relatively closed platform. You will not be able to just assemble one from spare parts, and it will not become the rough equivalent to a low end PC Clone.

vee
06-30-2005, 07:44 PM
Eblu,

Here are some of your previous thoughts on the subject. I got them from one of your earlier postings


"Now Apple is moving to Intel? the megahertz wars are over apparently because everybody is switching sides. now Macs are gonna ship with the same, not comparable... the SAME processors that Clones use. MS is noncommittal about EVERYTHING. and Now Michael Dell is saying he'd Love to sell Mac os X (an obvious "you don't scare me." shot at MS).

its very likely that Apple moving to intel will knock the legs out of a few cloners. I'm not saying Apple will eat those sales, just that the effectiveness of the various business plans, marketing, product timing, and price points will be thrown into flux. Many of the cloners keep No money at hand, and with the crazy body language the computer market is giving off right now, consumers may not be at a loss to actually understand whats going on, screwing up spreadsheets and balances from here to the ends of the earth.

it certainly is going to be a crazy transition, even if the hardware/software part of it works perfectly."

I have to say Ebu, I do agree with a lot of what you are saying, ecspecially the part about "it certainly is going to be a crazy transition". I ordered a BOXX today, I for one have decided I can't wait 1-2 years for a Dual/Core Dual/Proccessor IntelMac that's basically a pc running OS X.

Throughout this "crazy transition" I will be using a pc, and most likely in a year or two I'll be able to load OS XI on it.

eblu
07-01-2005, 07:29 AM
except that the transition won't start for a year... from now.

and it won't affect the behavior of g5s... at all, for at least 5 years, and most likely 10.

BOXX hardware will never run Os X... at all.

and a mac is a mac. Which happens to be a machine from the Very first company to Design, build and ship a PC to the masses. PC stands for "personal computer". Somehow the industry has forgotten that. the Woz made it possible to make a "personal" computer. Apple formed around that. Apple makes "personal computers" and the ipod.

a BOXX is an IBM Clone PC running Windows. So when you said "that's basically a pc running OS X" you can have that right this moment. the G5 fits that description perfectly. What you meant was: ...basically an IBM Clone running os X... And that just not what a Mac is. Apple is using generic parts, things that you find in IBM clones, to build something else... a Mac, and they have no intention of becoming Microsoft. Why? well first off, MS wouldn't take too kindly to real competition, second Apple sees flaws in that business plan (which begets driver problems, inherently bad design, spam, and virri). So its in Apple's interest, ie: written in stone for the foreseeable future... to Not allow you to install OSX on BOXX. And say what you like about Apple... they have some crazy big eggheads over there, that can indeed make installing OSX on a Non-apple machine impossible.

so in short, get used to windows.

vee
07-01-2005, 11:02 AM
and it won't affect the behavior of g5s... at all, for at least 5 years, and most likely 10.
Are you saying that developers will be making software for my dual 2k OS X 10.3.7 machine in 5-10 years? I challenge you to find anyone that is still developing for System 6 through 9 (they were all systems that were abandoned during the last 5-10 years (and still used by some). If your theory is valid that should not be a problem.


BOXX hardware will never run Os X... at all.
You may be right, but if you look at apples historical progress, you would see that every step that was made since the se30 on brought the mac closer not further to the mainstream pc box, no more scsi, nubus, adc, the list goes on and on but I'm bad with acronyms, I don't think the mac box uses hardly any proprietary hardware anymore (I remember when everything from the hardrive to the ram and all cables were proprietary).

And you would have me to believe that the executives at Apple would say to their shareholders

"We are going to pass on selling our OS to pc users, we really aren't interested in potentially increasing our market share by some 4800%, We are more concerned with maintaing the integrity of our product"

This is supposed to come from a man that doesn't even use Macs in his "Other" company. I think Job's can't wait to License OS X to Dell, Box, Alienware and any other Large pc distributor that has a small and consistant list of hardware in there boxes.


and a mac is a mac. Which happens to be a machine from the Very first company to Design, build and ship a PC to the masses. PC stands for "personal computer". Somehow the industry has forgotten that. the Woz made it possible to make a "personal" computer. Apple formed around that. Apple makes "personal computers" and the ipod.
http://www.cedmagic.com/history/three-computers-1977.html
I had the TRS-80

Maxkraft
07-01-2005, 11:27 AM
If apple was going to release there software on base line Intel hard ware then it wouldn't take 2 years to do it. Apple already has the dev systems out but the first real intel mac wont ship for a year. This suggest that apple is really working on some new hardware and not just re-banding parts. Don't forget dell make more money off of every pc it sells then Microsoft so don't be to so confident that apple will license it's software. The Ipod proved to apple that hardware is still king. As for Boxx, there overpriced and under specced.

vee
07-01-2005, 01:52 PM
If apple was going to release there software on base line Intel hard ware then it wouldn't take 2 years to do it. Apple already has the dev systems out but the first real intel mac wont ship for a year. This suggest that apple is really working on some new hardware and not just re-banding parts. Don't forget dell make more money off of every pc it sells then Microsoft so don't be to so confident that apple will license it's software. The Ipod proved to apple that hardware is still king. As for Boxx, there overpriced and under specced.

I just can't agree that there is going to be some new surprise hardware, the only proccessor we will see in upcoming macs is what intel (AMD) has on there shelves now and in the very near future. They will not devote the time and resources to develop a super chip just for the mac market. They are not stupid and neither are we. Apple is plainly and simply going to use the chips that intel has already spent billions to develop and manufacture, If they didn't, the IntelMac would probably cost 50-60 grand to offset the cost of proprietary chip design. The G5 chip was not developed specifically for the mac, isn't it the same chip thats in the IBM blade servers among other things (automobiles, boats and tractors)?

Let's think about this 1-2 year waiting period for a moment, Firstly let's assume Apple has a IntelMac ready to go out the door tomorrow, OK. My question is who would buy it. If it could run pc apps then maybe pc users. I do know that not one of us would waist our money on a machine that effectivly has no software to run. I think that would be a huge slap in the face of loyal mac customers, and apple knows that too. And let's face the facts here, ANY software that will run on the machine will have to be re-compiled/re-developed (whatever the term is) for the IntelMac platform.


You tell me how long (realistically, not theoretically) it will take to "re configure" the thousands of programs and plugins that run on OS X today, then I will tell you when we will see the IntelMac hit the streets, it's got little to do with hardware, in my opinion.


As for Boxx, there overpriced and under specced.
Here is the machine I bought, granted it may be slightly over-priced in pc land but compared to the 2.7 I don't think it is. And it can be upgraded to a dualcore machine (not that i would do that at this point), and we have all been to http://www.blanos.com/ we all know what proccesors are consitenlty at the top of the page. I am a mac user and a realist, I'm niether a Mac or pc zeleot, I just simply want to by the best machine for the right reasons at the right time, and for that in this environment you need opinions, becouse I darnded sure can't go to the apple web sight and get any facts, thats why I started this thread.

Darrell
07-01-2005, 03:37 PM
If anyone watch the apple keynote (its on the website so check it out) you will learn that apple made the switch to intel 5 years ago...as a matter of fact the G5 that steve used at the developers conference was an intel machine. So basically they had a 5 year head start...its not like they started yesterday lol

Apple is a hardware company so now PC's will not run OS X....apple will loose business which will lead to layoffs. Microsoft don't make hardware...thats why PC's are cheap...you will however need to buy new software to run on those machines though :(

vee
07-01-2005, 05:48 PM
Apple is a hardware company so now PC's will not run OS X....apple will loose business which will lead to layoffs. Microsoft don't make hardware...thats why PC's are cheap...you will however need to buy new software to run on those machines though :(

Will someone please tell me again that this company called apple is somehow not a software company. This company that over the last few years has brilliantly managed to corner the marked on most of the leading edge software in, let me see, the recording, the video and music industries (let us not forget that Apple is one if not the leader in online music sells, if you don't believe me go here http://www.apple.com/itunes/ ), now I am not the smartest man around but I'm no dummy either, and I would bet that apple sure would love to sell all this stuff to the millions of pc users that can't buy it right now.

Let me see they can't buy it if they're using pc's, so maybe we have to get them all to buy macs! Wait a minute tried that, and you know what nobody wanted to "Think Different". Wait… i'ts coming to me, Iv'e got it, if I can some how make a few simple tweeks to my already wildly popular OS, change it just enough so that it works on most major brand pc's, dell with those intel chips would be a great start. Then maybe, just maybe we can unload some of this software we have been aquiring over the last 6 years. And maybe, who knows, we just might make a few extra dollars selling a couple copies of our OS (kinda like MS, didn't they become the worlds largest software company based, on what was it windows and word?)

Darrell
07-02-2005, 12:12 AM
no one said they were not a software company...well all know they made software...we also know they make their own hardware;)....if you want a PC you can go to dell, HP, BOXX, Alienware, etc...Microsoft won't make PC's, just the Operating system, office applications, & other stuff...& since Apple is about making hardware they are not gonna make their OS run on a PC...otherwise people would just buy a PC & install OS X...Apple ain't stupid lol

vee
07-02-2005, 06:19 AM
no one said they were not a software company...well all know they made software...we also know they make their own hardware;)....if you want a PC you can go to dell, HP, BOXX, Alienware, etc...Microsoft won't make PC's, just the Operating system, office applications, & other stuff...& since Apple is about making hardware they are not gonna make their OS run on a PC...otherwise people would just buy a PC & install OS X...Apple ain't stupid lol

You know, when I think about this a little deeper, every thing about apple points to the direction of full market penatration (pc users) of all there products, both hardware and software. Apple has to be one of the most swiftly malleable technology companies out there. I mean, I would totally agree that apple, during their first ten years of existance, was purlely a hardware company, they only made computers and at that time they also made dot matrix and laser/inkjet printers. The only real software they made was MacPaint, MacWrite, MacDraw and of course their operating system.

But after their first ten years, what do you have? You have a company that began radical change of their core structure and direction. They become a software company with the introduction of all that software listed above, the most telling of their future direction would be the cross platform industry standard stuff quicktime for example (with these cross platform software they begin their shift to attract pc users).

After they introduce all this groundbreaking software, specifically targeted to huge industries traditionally dominated by pc programs and users. Legendary software like Final-Cut, Platinum and Shake ect. They, at this time want to lock users into using their software/hardware killer solutions. They of course already had the publishing industry completly dominated, they wanted to do the same for the recording studios, film and video editing studios. They also were seeking to be the computer/software solution for the casual user (imacs/appleworks ect…). They were very succeess with the recording industry (platinum) but not so successful with the film/video (Final Cut is great but Adobe and others don't roll-over so easy). They also entered other industries at this time. Online music sells and I believe they wanted to get a foothold in the 3d/animation industry. We all recall the rumours "apple to buy 3dstudio max" ect…

Anyway, what do we have now? You have a technology company that thinks it has the ultimate Hardware/Software solutions for a multitude of bedrock industries (and they do). How do you sell it to the masses? Simple, Apple being the nimble genius of a company that it is, incarnates into the biggest propriatery technology RETAILER on the planet. They open the Apple Stores.
At this point, with the solutions, the wonderful stores, and award wining Chiat/Day Ad campaigns (Ali was my favorite), Apple has no doubt that thrones of pc users would be dumping their wintel boxes and beating a path down to the local Apple Store. They didn't, even when he told them the G5 was the fastest PC on the planet. And don't be fooled, the apple stores were not for the already initiated (we didn't really mind buying macs wherever, even in the dingy mac corner of CompUsa or whatever) they were for the soon to be converted.

So where are we at now. You know what they say "If you can't bring Moses to the mountain, Bring the mountain to moses" and Apple being the nimble genius of a Hardware/Software/Retailer that it is will do just that. The mountain of course being OS X. This is the only way for Apple to do what it has been trying to do, and has spent millions to do over, all these years. Attract all those millions of potential mac users.

Apple has no other choice. From this point on it will NEVER be about the hardware. Once an intel chip (the SAME heart of a pc) goes into a Mac, the only marketable difference between a Mac and a pc will be a pretty silver box. The only thing left for apple to attract a pc user will be the OS and the SOFTWARE and between those two the OS wins hands down (the pc user already has too much software to chose from).

So Apple will sell the OS and it's wonderful user experience. Buy it now, "coming to a pc near you soon" Chiat will probably come up with a more clever slogan.

dmg3d
07-02-2005, 09:16 AM
First, drop that Mac price by $250 - get the extra memory from OWC.

"On the other hand I also dread having to buy everything from scratch for a PC..."

Well, now you can add that to the price of your system... unless you're only running LW. What about a monitor? You never mentioned what Mac you currently use...

Your original question:
"I need a new machine, simple question. Should I buy a boxx or a 2.7.

Before you give me !tihS, I've been a loyal mac user since Mac Plus.

Not trying to start trouble, but I just don't know if I should invest in what looks like a dead end G5 platform, or should I get a jump on the whole "intel inside thing"? "

Since I've been a Mac user since the Plus also, for me to switch now, just when things are getting interesting, would be an extremely tough decision... and would likely take a LOT longer than the 6 days it took you between the "should I" and the "I ordered" statements. If you were just looking at getting a second system to run LW, I guess then it would be more understandable.

"Which hhelll is worse Boxx box or Mac box? Tell me how you envision this 2006-2007 transition period."

The Boxx box. That coming from someone who would have to "re-purchase" all my current software... as opposed to buying upgrades when and if they're needed... and I bet for most of the major software titles, it'll be a free ".01"-version upgrade during the tranisiton period. I betcha a company like Adobe will take their apps, click on the "Intel-Mac" checkbox, recompile, and post the update on their site...

I think Apple has learned from the OS9 to X transition... and by starting the transition 5 years ago (every version of OSX has been ready for Intel) they'll be making the next transition that much smoother.

My take on the whole OSX on a pc is this: Apple wants to be in control. Apple wants people to come to them. If they haven't made their OS to run on Boxx, Dell, etc by now, it won't happen anytime soon... at least not in the lifetime of your new Boxx. I think it's more likely that the new Macs will be able to run Windows... and like we now have "Fast User Switching", we'll be able to pop over to the Windows "account".

But no matter what logo is on the front of your computer, you'll still be needing software upgrades during the next 3-4 years. And in 3-4 years the Boxx and the G5 2.7 will need to be replaced.

"You know, when I think about this a little deeper..."
... with your last post, you've convinced me to stick with the Mac... :) to stick with a company that keeps moving forward and doesn't sit still.

JML
07-02-2005, 10:27 AM
boxx is only another PC builder, there are lots of other builders that can create the same computer for a lot less.

a friend was looking at buying a dual xeon 3.2, and looked on dell and boxx,
he bought it from another company and it was a lot cheaper.
(he could not built it himself.
If he would have built it himself, he could have saved around between 500-800$ , it's incredible how much builders charges for dual xeons setup.)

it might be hard to have OSx on pc, the main reasons are drivers. it took a while to have windows stable with all these PC hardware (thanks winXP)
if they would release OSx on pc, it would probably become very unstable on some pc depending on what hardware they have.
it's a lot more easier to make a OS stable with 5 different hardware component than 10,000.
still possible, it would just require a lot of work.

having windows on MacIntel would be a lot more possible since it would not need so many drivers because of the hardware being pretty much the same.
so more chance to be stable in the begining..

I guess it would be good to have MacIntel be able to run both OS , these
way Macusers would be able to use some pc only-software, without the need of emulation software or going to another computer.
(autocad,polytrans,etc..)

vee
07-02-2005, 10:59 AM
Well, now you can add that to the price of your system... unless you're only running LW. What about a monitor? You never mentioned what Mac you currently use...
Right now I have a Dual 2k, Dual 1K G4, and a motley bunch of retired to the email farm older macs around the house. Got the 23" lcd so I plan on getting a 2-4 system KVM switch, won't need a monitor.


Since I've been a Mac user since the Plus also, for me to switch now, just when things are getting interesting, would be an extremely tough decision... and would likely take a LOT longer than the 6 days it took you between the "should I" and the "I ordered" statements. If you were just looking at getting a second system to run LW, I guess then it would be more understandable.
dmg3d, don't get me wrong this is nobodys "switch" story. I plan on using my existing mac as my main box. This second box (even if it would have been the 2.7) is simply to handle round the clock rendering task and other 3d related stuff. So far I'm pretty good on the duo program front (LW, F-prime?, Modo and Maxwell all provide duo platform options). The option of being able to buy other 3d pc apps also swayed my decision (the "what system will run what apps on what machine and how" seems to be what we are discussing on this thread). For the new machine these are the only apps it will be running. Helll, if it wasn't for 3d I'd probably still be using my 400 G4.


I think Apple has learned from the OS9 to X transition... and by starting the transition 5 years ago (every version of OSX has been ready for Intel) they'll be making the next transition that much smoother.
Three transitions and I'm out, until the dust settles that is. You forgot to mention the "System 7 ready" (or not fiascal). Back when I was just using 2d apps I could live through a transition, but with these coompllicatted aassss 3d apps I have enough trouble figuring things out in a non-transitional enviroment, I think I'd go nuts tracking problems in a transitional one. And it's not really Apple that has to transition anything (sounds like they have allready done it) it's the all the big and small software developers that have to 1) First choose to re-compile 2) Then do it. Their "5 years" starts now.


"You know, when I think about this a little deeper..." with your last post, you've convinced me to stick with the Mac... :) to stick with a company that keeps moving forward and doesn't sit still.
No arguments here.

vee
07-02-2005, 11:21 AM
it might be hard to have OSx on pc, the main reasons are drivers. it took a while to have windows stable with all these PC hardware (thanks winXP)
if they would release OSx on pc, it would probably become very unstable on some pc depending on what hardware they have.
it's a lot more easier to make a OS stable with 5 different hardware component than 10,000.
still possible, it would just require a lot of work.


JML, that's why I think apple will do this with a major like dell. dell has a very limited amount of hardware it uses in there boxes compared to the build it your selfers. Perfect for apple they only have to worry about the drivers for a very limited amount of hardware (dells) nowhere near the 10,000 unkowns. And for apple, it would be far cheaper to build drivers for all the major devices that could go in a pc than it is for them too run just a few superbowl "Think Different" Ads. I think they have at least a 200-300 million annual ad buget. If apple could get just 2-3% of dell customers to hit that OS X check box, Apple would quadrouple they're user base overnight. Giving them many more potential customers for there apps, and of course once someone actually uses OS X there next computer purchase is much more likley to be a Mac.

dmg3d
07-02-2005, 11:57 AM
I plan on using my existing mac as my main box. This second box (even if it would have been the 2.7) is simply to handle round the clock rendering task and other 3d related stuff. So far I'm pretty good on the duo program front (LW, F-prime?, Modo and Maxwell all provide duo platform options).

Gotcha... that's understandable. And having the KVM switch would be cool. I got the impression that you were dumping years of experience and investment because of the "possiblity" of major problems in the transition.



Three transitions and I'm out...

Either I have just been lucky, or I'm too easy going... but I never really had any problems with any transition (from the 1-floppy OS to the DVD OS). Some inconveniences... but I never felt like switching. Not until Lightwave... when I kept feeling like Newtek treated Macs like a second-class citizen. And I looked into the KVM idea too (and still might do something about it - just to have both worlds).



...it's the all the big and small software developers that have to 1) First choose to re-compile 2) Then do it. Their "5 years" starts now.

From what I've seen and read, Xcode is what this all hinges on. If I remember correctly, it was something like 90% of developers were either on-board or getting on-board with Xcode... the other 10% need to use it "or die"... basically not moving forward to the IntelMac. They would end up being one of those apps you were still running in OS9. And I would bet a lot of the plug-in makers are not using Xcode.

I would love to see a list of the developers that are using or moving to Xcode... I thought I read awhile back that Newtek was... but haven't heard anything on this in a while.

BTW, JML mentioned building your own... this probably would have been an even cheaper route - and you'd get the biggest bang for your buck... although it's much more of an investment in time.

Anyway - good luck.

vee
07-02-2005, 12:13 PM
BTW, JML mentioned building your own... this probably would have been an even cheaper route - and you'd get the biggest bang for your buck... although it's much more of an investment in time.

Yea, I started a thread in the pc section on that very topic. Spent about 2-3 days just to see and educate myself on the build it yourself topic. Ater all was said and done I didn't feel that I was familiar enough with all the nuances that go into it. The taking it apart and throwing it back together, not a problem. Just to many variables from various venders that stopped me. I managed to assemble a comparable sytem to the 2.7/boxx above for about 2600, just could not press the order button, I decided to spend the extra 800 bucks and at least have a customer service dept I could call.

ackees
07-04-2005, 10:18 AM
I have halted all mac purchases, software and hardware, effectively everything mac is dead in the water until the new machines come out. Imagine trying to run LW in emulation, that would be like running LW in OS 9 as opposed to OS X, madness. And why should any developer support a dead format, apple doesn't even support the old versions of OS X? Think about it, when OS x 10.3 came out the new safari would not run on OX 10.2.8. Just as You will not get all the hot OS X software available for System 9 anymore you will not get software available for PowerPC anymore, not even from apple.
Apple's decision belies awesome confidence, a fearless belief in being better than the competition, I would wait and see (I have a few old macs knocking about, they become just that, old obsolete machines).

dmg3d
07-04-2005, 01:42 PM
I have halted all mac purchases...

Oy ve! Dead in the water?? Emulation?? Dead format?? Come on... I think you need to do a LITTLE reading on the IBM to Intel transition before spewing irrational statements like that.

We're in a technology driven field... things keep moving, and faster than we want them to. Why do I need more megapixels in my camera? Why would I want a dual processor? Why would I want a dual core system? Why do I need a 2, 3, 4Mhz processor? Why can't they come out with just one good graphics card? I don't want to get another Lightwave upgrade... why do they keep coming out with them? What's wrong with Worley? Wasn't the Lightwave renderer good enough? And Luxology... what were those guys thinking? Another modeler? I can't keep up with more Photoshop upgrades... I wanna just use MacDraw and MacPaint. I wanna play Doom3. Now writeable dual-layer dvds? Why is gas so expensive? It costs a lot to fill up my Humvee.

The only thing dead in the water are the people waiting for the technology cruise ship to stop so they can climb on board and sip Baham Mamas poolside... ain't gonna happen. We'll always be sailing a few knots behind... trying to keep up.

My friend was sick and tired of the constant computer upgrades, software upgrades, & peripheral upgrades. Now he's a landscaper. Pick, shovel, hose. Things don't change as fast. He can buy a shovel today and in three years the next shovel he buys will be exactly the same.

End rant.

ackees
07-04-2005, 02:10 PM
The shovel is itself a form of technology. There is nothing wrong with wanting to stay where you are, there are many good reasons not to join the technology bandwagon if you do not need to. Personally I find the acceleration thrilling, but the idea of putting your foot down on a piece of technology when it has run out of gas doesn't excite me.

dmg3d
07-04-2005, 04:11 PM
there are many good reasons not to join the technology bandwagon if you do not need to.

That's true... if you're doing something other than 3d, video, music or hard core gaming... or doing any of the first three just for fun. But if it's your livelyhood, then you can't sit still.

The person that stays current with their software and replaces their computer every 3-4 or even 5 years... they could buy the currently available "out of gas" Mac today and by the time they're ready for a new Mac, the transition by all involved will be over with, and that person would have gotten 4-5 years of productivity out of it... Whether or not Apple would have continued business as usual (G5, G6, G7), the software you're running today (on Mac or any other pc) in 3 years will probably be upgraded 4-5 times and have greater hardware requirements anyway...

Whatever your purchase is today, be it Boxx, Mac, whatever... it's not gonna cut in 4 years. It's a fact of life in this field.

I could use a 400 year old shovel for digging... but I wouldn't want to use a 4 year old computer for Lightwave. Some technology just has a longer shelf life. :)

naldopr
07-06-2005, 10:00 AM
mac or pc you will do the same!
is just a tool to work!
does ford or gms change their design and performanse on their veicles everry year?
a faster car than yours or not you will go to the same place :p
I do know from some friend that are student of dave school a visual effect and animation school in fl that say mac are not good for animation just for video editing. verified

I use mac and if I have to use pc it will not be a problem ;)

dmg3d
07-06-2005, 01:27 PM
a faster car than yours or not you will go to the same place :p

Yup. As long as you enjoy the drive!

sjon
07-11-2005, 12:08 AM
The only way to know (when the day comes) that you're running a MacTel, rather than a PPC is by clicking on "About this Mac," Some legacy software (OSX will run a little slower if it has to access the Rosetta translator) may slow down, but by the time MacTel shows up, developers (using a cross-compiler program furnished by Apple) will be able to recode all the software you want for the MacTel (with the execption of Metrowerks, which, BTW, was just folded back into Motorola (remember the old 680X0's?). The reason for the change is simple, based on two reasons, chip availability (how long did you wait for your new G5?) and power consumption (my 2.5 Ghz chips need to be water cooled, f'krikey's sake!). By the time MacTel's come out (with Leopard), Intel will be into dual-core high speed chips that will make the Mac just roar. And besides, it's not about PPC (IBM) vs. Intel (anymore than it was between IBM and Motorola), it's which platform offers the best OS (Mac OS vs. Windows), and I don't even think there's a question. Deciding to go to Wintel is a frightening proposition. Yea, Leopard vs. Longhorn - guess who eats who.

Sjon

vee
07-12-2005, 07:21 AM
By the time MacTel's come out (with Leopard), Intel will be into dual-core high speed chips that will make the Mac just roar.

In a year or two, I'll also be on the list to buy that machine. In fairness, sjon Intel and AMD have dual-core high speed chips that roar today (they are crazy pricey, though http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103544 ). I just think that, like Job's, we all should unbiasedly look at all the options when it comes to buying a machine that is an integral part of our livelyhood.

eblu
07-12-2005, 08:06 AM
In a year or two, I'll also be on the list to buy that machine. In fairness, sjon Intel and AMD have dual-core high speed chips that roar today (they are crazy pricey, though http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103544 ). I just think that, like Job's, we all should unbiasedly look at all the options when it comes to buying a machine that is an integral part of our livelyhood.



thats all well and good. But don't jump to conclusions. You seem to be assuming a lot of things that JUST_WONT_HAPPEN, and from past experience I KNOW that people that expect things that won't happen, always take it as a personal attack from the company when they find out that they were wrong.

for the foreseeable future Apple makes Macs. Not Gaming Pcs. Not generic PCs, and they have No way of surviving if they stop making/selling Hardware. So, you will not be buying a BOXX and installing os X. They will make it prohibitively painful or expensive to do so.

the intel transition, is Big because of what happens behind the scenes, not so much about how it changes the user's experience.

vee
07-12-2005, 01:27 PM
thats all well and good. But don't jump to conclusions. You seem to be assuming a lot of things that JUST_WONT_HAPPEN, and from past experience I KNOW that people that expect things that won't happen, always take it as a personal attack from the company when they find out that they were wrong.

for the foreseeable future Apple makes Macs. Not Gaming Pcs. Not generic PCs, and they have No way of surviving if they stop making/selling Hardware. So, you will not be buying a BOXX and installing os X. They will make it prohibitively painful or expensive to do so.

the intel transition, is Big because of what happens behind the scenes, not so much about how it changes the user's experience.

I don't expect anything, and really have no idea what will happen. All I can do , like you is to guess. I have heard very little by way of official statements from apple to help people like myself make informed decisions. At this point the only thing I know for sure is that Developers have $999 IntelMacs to play with, that's it. What? When? How? TimeLine? Roadmap? not a word. I do know that LW, Modo and Maxwell run on the PC, everything else gets vague real quick.

cresshead
07-12-2005, 02:26 PM
I dipped my tow into theMAc market this year and bought a mac mini DVDR so far my take on mac Vs pc is this....

if you want to edit video then a mac is very neat even with only imovie & idvd
but adding something like final cut [express or full] then you have a great video editor and dvd creator.....

garage band whilst it is somewhat restrictive compared to cubasis is waaaaaaaay ahead in user friendlyness..got me back on to write some music..not done that for a few years!...and it's FUN!

if you want a mac/pc for 3d...get a pc.......
pc's have more plugins and have ZERO issues...somehting that a mac lightwave still really struggles with...poor graphic cards and no pci express slots [mac]

personally i've found a good balance in having "a mac" and a couple of pc's..that way i literally get the best of both camps!

pc's..i don't spend a huge wod on them...last one i bought was from e-bay for £85!........an SGI 230 with a quadro graphics card...stunning performance for modeling/animating.....just add a boring cheap dell for rendering!

simple.......get both! :lwicon:

dablan
07-12-2005, 10:38 PM
Well, I'll have to comment -

I've used Macs for a lot of years, we have three in the studio. But, these were not the main systems. We've always really run LightWave seriously on our PC boxes.

Well, even though I have friends at Boxx and think their stuff is great, I sold off our GoBoxx laptop this year and bought a 17" G4 Powerbook. I love it. It's fast, light, and powerful. I run LightWave on it, and do my training, client projects (remotely) as well as web sites. What's also great about a Mac is Motion, DVD Studio Pro, and the other integrated tools. It's so easy to record and burn - easier than it every was on the PC. Now, we still have our PC boxes, but we're looking to add a G5 dual for faster processing.

One reason we never went into Macs too much before was because of the lack of video support and video cards. Now nVidia cards are powerful and available for OSX. Tiger is a fantastic operating system, and i am happy to say there is never a crash or an un-needed reboot like the PC.

For LightWave, other than some available plug-ins, there's nothing missing.

sjon
07-12-2005, 11:41 PM
The master speaks. And if you've ever gone through Dan's training courses, you know that I kid you not.

Back in my G3 & 4 days, I used to fret when I saw a Wintel user showing how fast LW was. Now, I don't.

And I agree, it's not just Lightwave, it's the whole shebang - LW, Photoshop, After Effects, FCP Studio (including Motion). They're all open on my machine and I bounce back and forth between all of them. I build something in LW, render out to LiveType, composite it in either AE or Motion and do final edit in FCP, with a great soundtrack and voiceover. And burn it all onto a DVD or DV Videotape. All without hauling my butt out of the chair. And they all run scrumptiously under Tiger (with 4GB RAM). So maybe it takes a minute or so longer to render a LW scene, but by the time I finish everthing, I bet I've cut my time in half.

Sjon

Wait a minute…weren't we talking about Jobs move to MacTel? Oh well, don't Boxx yourself in. (Uh, that's like thinking outside the boxx.)

:boogiedow

Darth Mole
07-13-2005, 01:31 AM
Blimey - that's quite some vote of confidence from Jedi Master D' Anablan. Not very often you hear pro's move to the World's Best Computing Platform™ with such vigour. Makes me all warm and fuzzy...

Ah, no - that's the drink.

vee
07-13-2005, 02:27 AM
Ok deacon sjon,

Before you get too fiery in your "Mac Is God" sermon remember your preaching to a member of the congregation. Been on the Mac since Illustrator 88. I already know the virtues of the system. But "how great" is Mac is really not why I posted. I posted as an attempt to gain info concerning the future transition, and how that affects my current computer purchases.

Granted, I being a Mac user myself, understand that the mention of any heathenness, Un-Macly things while in the church of Mac will undoubtedly bring the eventual wrath of deacons not unlike yourself. Wait a minute… what have I done!:help:

I repent, I repent!

I swear to you, sjon (I'm placing my hand over my OS X Bible), from this day forth I will continue to use my G5 and all of it's blessed software, and when that devil Boxx comes through my door, I swear to you I won't sucoumb to it's evil seduction, I will not worship in the house of windows. That wicked Boxx will be forever banished to the darkest corner of this office. And I never will it render on Sunday's!

Thanks sjon, although I strayed, you my friend made me whole again.

Mac bless you

dablan
07-13-2005, 08:39 AM
Hehe... you guys are funny...

When I talk to people who ask about Mac or PC, and they kind of make a face at the mention of a Mac... I ask them when was the last time they worked on one. Sure enough, each and every one of them said a few years ago, OS9 or very very early OSX. There in lies the problem. I wouldn't work on a Mac then. Too many issues, video was slow, software not supported, etc.

It's a totally different story today, and someday, I'll have that sweet 30" deal sitting here with a G5. :)

vee
07-13-2005, 09:26 AM
Dan,

While you are on the line, quick question.

wizill thiza bizze iza rizendizer izan iza izanimazition pizackizage izon thiza zizecizon, izin izeliza? Just curious.

dablan
07-13-2005, 09:48 AM
render and animation package what?

JML
07-13-2005, 09:56 AM
When I talk to people who ask about Mac or PC, and they kind of make a face at the mention of a Mac... I ask them when was the last time they worked on one. Sure enough, each and every one of them said a few years ago, OS9 or very very early OSX. There in lies the problem. I wouldn't work on a Mac then. Too many issues, video was slow, software not supported, etc.
It's a totally different story today, and someday, I'll have that sweet 30" deal sitting here with a G5. :)

you can turn this into this too :)

When I talk to people who ask about Mac or PC, and they kind of make a face at the mention of a PC... I ask them when was the last time they worked on one. Sure enough, each and every one of them said a few years ago, Windows95 or very very early WindowsME. There in lies the problem. Too many issues,.. etc.

It's a totally different story today with windowsXP.

;)

vee
07-13-2005, 11:01 AM
render and animation package what?

Sorry Dan,

my "double-dutch" is not very readable, withdraw the question. I'll just have to wait until the 2nd and find out then.

dmg3d
07-13-2005, 11:56 AM
It's a totally different story today with windowsXP.
;)

The stories I see usually have the words "security threats", "spyware" and "virus" in them. Headlines like "Microsoft Warns Hackers Are Actively Exploiting Windows XP Flaws" and "Microsoft Warns of New Software Flaw"...

The only difference in the today's stories is now they have "XP" in them. :foreheads

dablan
07-13-2005, 12:06 PM
Vee - I think I knew what you meant.
Wait until SIGGRAPH.

JML - on many occasions, the people I've run into with
major major problems are using Win98. XP is definitely better,
no doubt. Plug and play actually works. But I find that I'm always
rebooting to get a driver working, or something stupid like that.
To my surprise, I'm not having that kind of trouble with the Mac.

It's all good. We use both machines here, intel and amd, you name it.

JML
07-13-2005, 01:01 PM
The stories I see usually have the words "security threats", "spyware" and "virus" in them. Headlines like "Microsoft Warns Hackers Are Actively Exploiting Windows XP Flaws" and "Microsoft Warns of New Software Flaw"...

The only difference in the today's stories is now they have "XP" in them. :foreheads
sigh .




dablan, we got some of your tutorials, some of my co-workers are learning from it. pretty good tutorials,

sjon
07-13-2005, 01:27 PM
Boxx :bangwall:, Windows :cursin:, OSX :beerchug:, see, it's easy.

dablan
07-13-2005, 01:30 PM
JML thanks.

More soon....

wilgory
07-14-2005, 10:44 PM
7/15
Our studio has 20 powermacs and we just bought another one. 2.7 dual processor, 4 gigs or ram. The mac hardware and software is far from dead. Xcode is a revolutionary developers platform that is bundled with tiger that allows developers to code for powerpc and x86 today!!! Software and hardware is plentiful. I'd buy another one or three, plus a mac mini cause its so cute in a heartbeat. Once your hooked, you'll never turn back. We have 3 quad 3.0 xeons, but the macs are what we use for everything. Tiger + 3D + Creativity = happy clients.

Greg

vee
04-05-2006, 12:15 PM
[QUOTE=vee]
...I don't want to outlay a bunch of cash in such an unknowing mac evironment....
...By christmas we should all know some (or all) of the following to be true/false concerning apple...

1) IntelMacs will run OS X apps AND pc apps
2) Pc's will run OS X
3) IntelMacs will be able to use any proccesor (intel or AMD)
4) Older G5's will be able to upgrade to Intel/AMD proccesors (like the ones the developers have now)
5) OS 9 apps will run on the IntelMac
QUOTE]

lets see, where to start with this one? The assumptions you've made here are based on misinformation.
for instance, we already know that
1. "intel macs" won't run PC apps Natively out of the box. go buy some sort of Windows emulation software
2. PCs WILL NOT RUN OSX! Apple feels they need to control the hardware to avoid sticking the user with a crappy experience. I happen to agree. You may get it to go, but the result will Not be a Mac, it will be a hobby.
3. Number three is a waste of time to even think about.
4. g5's upgrading to intel processors? Not gonna happen. Its crazy to even suggest it, and ALL of the information we have, makes this clear. For instance, pin outs on the G5... not even remotely compatible with the Intel processors.
5.read my Lips: NOTHING FROM OS 9 WILL RUN ON AN INTEL PROCESSOR, it must first be converted in some way, and if that was gonna happen at all, chances are it would have been done by now.

the biggest fallacy I see though is the "unknowing mac environment." You are misinterpreting rumors, and ignoring real hard facts. you want to believe that the G5 is end-of-lifed, that the current platform as is, is dead. This is not the case. True, Apple is moving to intel and the g5 WILL be gone, a footnote in technology history. But as of right now, Apple HAS Not Moved to Intel. And the G5 is the Only processor available in a mac. Its selling in volume. Theres nothing unknown, theres Nothing vague, and the value and performance of a G5 has not dropped one iota. The intel-mac switch is said to take 4 years to complete. after that, industry experts reasonably expect 10 MORE YEARS of support for G5s. It is generally accepted that a computer purchased today has a 4 year life expectancy at the outside. There is no thin ice, the sky is not falling, and your remarks are incredibly pre-mature.

The Intel based Mac will have less in common with a IBM PC CLONE than you seem to hope, and it will Still be a relatively closed platform. You will not be able to just assemble one from spare parts, and it will not become the rough equivalent to a low end PC Clone.

Wow, so it looks likes Macs will run windows, well I'll be...

Lamont
04-05-2006, 12:19 PM
Heheheeh!!

http://www.apple.com/macosx/bootcamp/

dablan
04-05-2006, 12:20 PM
I can't figure out why you'd want to run Windows on a Mac. The Mac hardware, even the new stuff, is often not as fast as some cheaper PCs. The advantage of using a Mac is the outstanding operating system and associated toolset.

vee
04-05-2006, 12:28 PM
I can't figure out why you'd want to run Windows on a Mac. The Mac hardware, even the new stuff, is often not as fast as some cheaper PCs. The advantage of using a Mac is the outstanding operating system and associated toolset.


Just to make Eblu happy :)

jeremyhardin
04-05-2006, 03:53 PM
I can't figure out why you'd want to run Windows on a Mac. The Mac hardware, even the new stuff, is often not as fast as some cheaper PCs. The advantage of using a Mac is the outstanding operating system and associated toolset.

Hiya Dan. For me, here's why: Fusion, XSI, and Shift's Boolean Texture for LW. :D Oh, and being able to develop and test in both environments on one machine.

naldopr
04-05-2006, 10:19 PM
well as I know from student at dave school mac are not the cream in animation. they use boxx comp.
boxx are more dedicated to the vfx than apple. their customer servise and technical people will be more familiar with any 3d software than apple
:compbeati.
do you see boxx users selling their boxx on ebay?:lwicon:

well hope this help.

a mac user:thumbsup: