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View Full Version : Clip map saved with objects / as surface property PLLLLEEEAASe



Exception
05-30-2005, 01:14 PM
Oh comeon!
PLEASE!

Pretty please with, like, this gigantic unnatural cherry on top, with a whole truckload of sugar?

PUhhhhlease?!!

I'm sure I'm not the only one who really wants this!
Please help this feature get in and say your best PuhLeeeaaaaasseeee!

Wade
05-30-2005, 03:25 PM
We are with ya! ;)

http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?t=36118

Wade

3dworks
05-31-2005, 01:09 AM
yes please!!

markus

nthused
05-31-2005, 07:03 AM
This would be a very good addition - saving me a lot of time.

Chris S. (Fez)
05-31-2005, 07:32 AM
Yes please.

JML
05-31-2005, 07:47 AM
that would be very nice

hesido
06-02-2005, 10:03 AM
I agree! Object should hold its clip map data along with its surface data.. Clip map is also a surface data but you get the idea :)

But I also want one thing that may surprise some of you :=)
http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?t=31527

Everything should be saved in everything, lol..

Surface settings stored within scene files will let us use same object files for both radiosity and normal renders, revert back to old surface settings by simply reloading a scene (good as we have no cancel changes button in surface layout). Things will still be stored in the objects as it is now (maybe with the clip map addition ;) ), and user can choose to override the scene surface setting with the objects. Any surface info that the scene lacks would be filled in from the object. With all these being optional. Details in the link.

With this cascading logic where the scene has precedence, such a change you mention like things normally in the scene being saved out onto the object will be much easier to handle, as we will have the proper cascading logic (load object data -> asses all data -> load scene data-> overwrite already present data in the object with info already present in the scene -WITH- a confirmation box (can be turned off in options).

Exper
06-14-2005, 09:31 AM
More than useful!

kopperdrake
06-15-2005, 05:40 AM
OMG YES!!!! PLEASE!! I'm sick if importing trees and having to clipmap the leaves scene by scene. Yes, I know there are workarounds but often you tweak trees scene by scene so you have to keep them all updated!

Can we have the clip map as part of the surface editor? Transparency causes some nasty rendering problems with large polygon volumes.

If you get clip maps as part of objects then I'll send a crate of decent English beer over to NewTek :D

LOL!

JML
06-15-2005, 06:48 AM
it seems easy to change but actually it might not..
because right now the clip map affect a object layer, not a surface.
but I hope they do it.
that would also mean they would have to change the lwo format again.. I think..

many time I had to clip something in a object, but not the whole object, so I had to cut the surface and paste it into a seperate layer, just to be able to clip it, what a pain..


something they could change too is to move all the "Edge" attribute from the object panel into the surface panel, this way you would be able to change those parameters for each surfaces without putting them on a special layer..

Lightwolf
06-15-2005, 07:08 AM
that would also mean they would have to change the lwo format again.. I think..

Not really. Lwo is quite extensible and clip mapping information could be easily incorporated. Old tools that read/write lwo would just ignore it.

Cheers,
Mike

Exper
06-15-2005, 07:23 AM
Yes, thanks to that great IFF's tags invention that LWO uses too! ;)

Karmacop
06-15-2005, 10:16 PM
Good to know I'm not the only fan of IFF ;)

toby
06-16-2005, 12:36 AM
Why don't you guys make a load-from-scene file with dozens of trees and bushes already set up? It's basically the same as saving the clip-map in the object, you're just loading an .lws instead of an lwo. You'd never have to apply a another clip-map again -

Could you not also model flat trees that don't need a clip-map? Trace around the image with the Pen tool - I'm sure you'd save a lot of rendertime without all the alpha maps too - nah, I guess you'd have to trace around every leaf - :o

hesido
06-16-2005, 03:21 AM
Good to know I'm not the only fan of IFF ;)


Count me in, too!

Anyway, as I always say, "everything should be saved in everything" with proper cascading rules, which will ensure feature compatibility and more time for our lesiurly activities. It is those lesiurly activities I care most about.

JML
06-16-2005, 06:08 AM
Why don't you guys make a load-from-scene file with dozens of trees and bushes already set up? It's basically the same as saving the clip-map in the object, you're just loading an .lws instead of an lwo. You'd never have to apply a another clip-map again -


there is all time work around for something,
I think applying the clip map manually is faster than loading it from another scene (that you need to find, and then select the object you want,etc..)
applying a clipmap to an object (tree for example) is easy and fast, it's just annoying to redo something every time for each project.
(because of that, I used to keep it in transparency instead of clipmap. longer to render though..)

having clip map inside the object would just save us a lot of time.
faster workflow.

Lightwolf
06-16-2005, 06:14 AM
there is all time work around for something,
I think applying the clip map manually is faster than loading it from another scene (that you need to find, and then select the object you want,etc..)
...That's why you can create single scenes for every object you might need and use those as a kind of library...

Cheers,
Mike

kopperdrake
06-16-2005, 07:15 AM
But the pain about creating a scene for every object is that you then need a scene, object and image folder for every item too.. Then you create various versions of those objects and your library soon becomes out of date. For example, over the last 5 projects I may have changed 10 types of tree each time to suit a particular lighting setup, geometry count etc. My objects chaneg depending on the circumstance and it's hard to find the time to also keep an up-to-date library as well. I keep a basic library and change things from project to project. Sometimes the basic object suffices, sometimes it doesn't. If the clip map was applied to a surface then it would save just one more little hiccup in the work pipeline.

Also, when you buy 3rd party objects, often for simplicity, the transparency is applied in the transparency channel. For the record, I also use this transparency at times, but often, and I have no idea why, it screws up the rendering. In a multi-segment rendering it's painful to see stripes in your final image. I've found clip maps to be the most solid way to cut a shape out, and most forgiving as to what file format you use. Of course, you also have to remember to turn off pixel blending too for the clip map texture as that can also sometimes cause odd rendering to happen.

Hmm...in fact, I think the whole clip map thing is one of the banes of my working with Lightwave. Clipmaps applied to a surface by surface would allow objects to be moved around in a handier little bundle - then we only have the image and object folders to think about.

That's why my offer of a crate of beer stands :D

JML
06-16-2005, 08:05 AM
like I said, there are work around.

Having clip map info saved in the object itself would save time.

Lightwolf
06-16-2005, 08:07 AM
like I said, there are work around.

Having clip map info saved in the object itself would save time.
No doubt about it that it would save time ... But you can still save (a bit less) time already ;)

Cheers,
Mike

badllarma
07-11-2005, 04:09 AM
bump
as already said this would b really useful clip maps to surface rather than to object :thumbsup:

pixym
07-13-2005, 04:55 PM
Yes Clip map should be in surface properties...

toby
07-13-2005, 11:41 PM
But the pain about creating a scene for every object is that you then need a scene, object and image folder for every item too.. Then you create various versions of those objects and your library soon becomes out of date.

Oy! You don't create a scene for every object! Take a scene that you've already made, clear out everything but the trees and bushes that have clip maps on them and save that as an LFS (load-from-scene). When you start a new project, use the content manager to export everything in this scene into your new project folder - or just duplicate this LFS folder and start your new project with it. I used LFS type scenes in Max when I worked at an arch-vis place, this 'workaround' is not exclusive to LW, it's just like saving a character rig or surface presets.

As far as new variations, just make a new LFS from the latest project - or load the new tree into the old LFS and save.

Exception
10-25-2005, 11:45 AM
Thats just a LOT of steps to save an object with clipmaps and load it.
As someone said, if you have several versions of the same object, you will need to hunt down the original LWS and open it again and adjust it, load the new object, save it again blahblahblah, its just awfully cumbersome, and unnecessary.

Bump therefore.

pixym
10-25-2005, 12:30 PM
... But that can be not good!
An example, you have to change some surfaces with differents clip map, by one only (that does not have clip map).
If you apply the surface, you will lost all your clip map!
Then if you put clip map setting in surface you must do it an option in Surface Editor for not to change the clip map while setting...

toby
10-26-2005, 02:33 AM
Oh, it is not a LOT of steps. Once you have a scene with 4 or 10 of each plant, is it still faster to apply each clip map one at a time, instead of doing a load-from-scene? You can bring in hundreds of clip-mapped objects all at once. If you make a new version of an object, you can do a 'save object as' and put it wherever you want it.

Isn't re-using materials a standard thing to do? Is re-using scene files any different? I'm not saying it's as fast as what you're asking for, but if you're interested in a faster workflow, shouldn't you be doing something like this?

Actually, if you want a really cool tool, I hear Maya has something that lets you model with a clip map; it literally clips the geometry into the shape of the image. That would be a sweet addition to LW :santa:

RedBull
10-27-2005, 11:05 PM
Yes it's annoying....

Another work around... Preset Transparent Surfaces!!!

Set your clip maps up and then copy them to the transparancy channel on
a surface, save preset..... Whenever you need them, just use a surface preset, and copy to the clip map channel...

Exception
10-28-2005, 09:15 AM
Well, it's very simple...
I have a great tree modeled and clip mapped. I want to save that tree for later use. I have to save the object, open an new layout, open the object, reapply the clip map, (or go the route of stripping the scene of all other objects) then save both, with content directory structure, somewhere.
For each clip mapped object. that is cumbersome, and YES a lot of steps.

Also when I add a 'leaves' material from the library it would be very handy to be able to have that have a clip map as well. so next time i make a tree i can just use my leaves material without having to manually add the clip map each and every single time again.

wacom
10-29-2005, 01:38 AM
Yet another instance where intances would be what we really want to solve this problem. Make one or two instances of a leaf, put them on a tree- and then instance the **** out of that. Just a thought...

And nothing else would have to change...

vbk!!!
11-01-2005, 01:22 PM
the best is to have the choice between the twice (object or surface)

RedBull
11-09-2005, 06:11 PM
the best is to have the choice between the twice (object or surface)

Isn't that what we already have? Clip Map Objects, Surface either Trans or Alphas?

Can someone tell my why you can't use Alpha's on the surface channel
to do the same thing as a clip-map can? I mean they save with objects,
and you can use presets

I think i'm missing something...... Anyone enlighten me please ?

evenflcw
11-09-2005, 10:34 PM
You might expect transparency at 100% to hide an object entire. But it doesn't. The transparency channel is only one of many surface channels and each works more or less independently from the others. Try setting transparency to 100% and also set specularity to 100%. When you render you'll notice that despite the surface being completely transparent the specularity will still be there. To mimic what a clip map does you'd have to texture not only the transparency surface channel but also specularity, reflection (any more?). As such, it would be much more convenient to have a some kind of clip/dissolve surface channel.

Hmmm... couldn't dissolve and clip map be the same property? Clip being 100% dissolve. It's just odd how clip map has a T button but no E button, and dissolve has an E button but no T button. Distance Dissolve is legacy stuff. It's functionality would be more than covered by a gradient texture IF Dissolve had an T button.

badllarma
11-10-2005, 12:35 AM
Isn't that what we already have? Clip Map Objects, Surface either Trans or Alphas?

Can someone tell my why you can't use Alpha's on the surface channel
to do the same thing as a clip-map can? I mean they save with objects,
and you can use presets

I think i'm missing something...... Anyone enlighten me please ?

SPEEEEED :)

Thats the big one!
Render something using transparency then use a clip map for the same effect the speed of the render is the difference, I'm talking the speed of rendering out 1000's or 10,000's of objects like trees in a landscape scene for instance yes there is the like of HD Instace but a clip map tree still is much faster.

andy

RedBull
11-10-2005, 12:57 AM
No guys you misunderstand me :) Speed is no different!
No i mean Alpha's on the color channel......???

EDIT: Now i realised, (been a long day) surface alpha's work if you have
a solid background or gradient in the color channel....

So my method for surface clips, only works for compositing purposes,
or for certain background objects with evenly coloured backgrounds..

Oh well it works for me most of the time.. :)

Pavlov
11-11-2005, 08:17 AM
AGREE.
I asked for this time ago just here, but a remind is good now that we're closer to 9.

Pavlov

Matt
11-11-2005, 10:33 AM
First time I encountered this I thought WTF! Had setup my clipmaps on an object in one scene, then I had another scene where I wanted to use the same object, imagine my horror when I discovered that the clipmaps were stored as part of the scene file!

It's just plain wrong IMHO!