PDA

View Full Version : LightWave 3D® [8] Preview at SIGGRAPH



Chuck
04-25-2003, 01:14 PM
NewTek is pleased to announce that we will be previewing LightWave 3D® [8] at SIGGRAPH 2003, July 29-31, Booth#2848. NewTek's LightWave 3D [8] is expected to ship in the fourth quarter of this year. Development for this release of LightWave® will focus on workflow and user interface improvements. In addition, LightWave [8] will include enhancements to character animation tools and game development tools, as well as improved integration with other production tools and with 3rd party add-ons.

NewTek is also pleased to announce that those who purchase LightWave 3D [7.5], full copy or upgrade, from April 1, 2003, until LightWave 3D [8] ships will receive the LightWave 3D [8] update free, by download. Those who have been considering purchase of a new or upgrade seat of LightWave may do so knowing that an investment now will also secure them the next generation of this industry-standard 3D toolset.

For details, to locate a reseller, or to purchase, see:

http://www.newtek.com/buynow/lw_products.html

mattclary
04-25-2003, 01:23 PM
WOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!! :D

wapangy
04-25-2003, 01:27 PM
Yippy!!!!

Lamont
04-25-2003, 01:36 PM
Chuck, please post a small feature list... I'm droolin'. I gotta save 400 bucks!! With all the traveling I'll be doing it's gonna drain me.

mattclary
04-25-2003, 01:45 PM
Just got off the phone with Newtek from ordering my upgrade to 7.5!!!! :D :D :D :D :D :D I am sooooooo stoked just to get 7.5, let alone 8! :D

oxyg3n
04-25-2003, 01:47 PM
Hello Chuck,

I was just wondering if you could tell us what has been included to help with game dev?

This is a big interest of mine, and I have a group of friends who make game mods but all use max! I would love to get into moding and still use LW. That would be awesome.

Chuck
04-25-2003, 01:51 PM
Hi, Lamont, Oxyg3n!

We hate to be teases (no really! ;)), but we aren't ready to post feature information at this time, beyond the broad categories mentioned above. Sorry! :)

Lamont
04-25-2003, 01:53 PM
Oh man. I hope you guys do something at Sig so that I could try to win it...

I'm with you Oxy (Nor Cal!! Yeah!), more game tools, but what problems are you having? Export? I've seen exports for almost every major game out there: Quake, Half Life, Doom, Unreal...

bolo
04-25-2003, 02:05 PM
if I'm a student and purchase 7.5, will i get 8 edu version free too ?? if not how much ? also when will v8 educational be available ? thx !

Neil_Campbell
04-25-2003, 02:05 PM
This should allay many of the concerns amongst the community about the stagnation of LW development and the NT / Lux situation - and hopefully when the software development approach that's been used for VT is applied to LW we will see more frequent point releases of LW after 8 is released.

That said, with another 6-9 months to go before expected release date, NT has got plenty of time to really cram in enhancements, so LW8 should be a monster app.


And on that point Chuck, around the feature set, you've mentioned broad categories (character animation, game development, workflow and UI, ....) and don't want to be drawn on detail. Fair enough.

But can we also assume that there will be significant enhancements in other elements of LW? Being 100% selfish, I'm not interested in character animation or game dev, although I know lots of people are, so you need to cater for that. What I and many others would like to see is a fairly serious beefing up of the materials and rendering side of things - any comment on those, even in general terms? Or am I reading your posting too narrowly re feature set?

Neil

turbo
04-25-2003, 02:14 PM
For those of us who purchased LW 7.5 before April 03 what is it going to cost to upgrade to 8?

Rei
04-25-2003, 02:14 PM
yay.

only I do hope that they remember to make it as stable as a rock!

Rei

novadesigns
04-25-2003, 02:22 PM
Yeah, stability and robustness... we really push LW hard every day and its pretty rock solid. If 8 is as well and improves things to boot that would be awesome!

I also hope that the upgrade doesn't break too many plugins.

mattclary
04-25-2003, 02:22 PM
Turbo, probably $395 from 7.x and $495 from anything prior, if history is any indication.

oxyg3n
04-25-2003, 02:24 PM
Hello Chuck,

I was so afraid that you were going to tell me that, dangit, I wanted to run off and brag to my max friends!! LOl

NOrCal Rocks!!

@Lamont - Well, maybe I havent found the right exporter, mainly my friends are into modding for q3 and recently they shelled out the dough for the tribes2 engine ( dont know what the official name of it is) so that they can develope and market their own game.
I just want the ability to export to the game engine and set up animations, although I have no idea how you animate a cycyle in lw to export to a game yet, can you recommend any good exporters/ plugins to help with this process. OR any tutorials?

I am excited that Doom3 natively supports .lwo files maybe this is a good sign od things to come!

Lamont
04-25-2003, 02:26 PM
Torque Engine...

Hmm.. go to www.garagegames.com first...


tuts on walk cycles or looping animations is what you want?

oxyg3n
04-25-2003, 02:29 PM
Hey Lamont,

Thanks for the link I am checking it out now. Torque, Yup that is the one.

ps,

I just noticed on your signature that you are a game artist, what do you do? Do you use LW to develope games? I graduated from my community college with my AA in Art last semester and I am hoping to transfer to Cogswell in Sunnyvale. I want to study Game Design and Modelling and Animation there. I cant wait till i get a real job!

JohnL
04-25-2003, 02:40 PM
Good going Newtek!! Those programmers you hired last week sure have been busy.;)

Todays mantra:
Feature list, feature list, feature list....

Repeat as often as needed!!!:D

featurelistfeaturelistfeaturelistfeaturelistfeatur elistfeaturelistfeaturelistfeaturelistfeaturelistf eaturelistfeaturelistfeaturelistfeaturelistfeature listfeaturelistfeaturelistfeaturelistfeaturelistfe aturelistfeaturelistfeaturelistfeaturelistfeaturel istfeaturelist...

Feels good doesn't it??

Chuck
04-25-2003, 02:40 PM
Hi, Neil!

Improvements would not be limited to those categories mentioned. Can't be more specific than that at this time.

It may not be too late for specific suggestions, if you would like to submit your specifics to [email protected], as well as post them in the Feature request forum for discussion with other users.

There's also a poll there, and I'm curious why more folks haven't participated in that. We have thousands of LW users on the forum, and so far only 166 have cast votes on that poll. We've been watching it with some interest.

turbo
04-25-2003, 02:48 PM
matt: woah! that's a disappointingly expensive upgrade. :(

oxyg3n: we are using the torque engine with our products in progress.. KWIC and KrabbitWorld. no complaints, its quite robust. :) ... you can get the .dts exporter at gnometech.com

Matt
04-25-2003, 03:01 PM
Yeeeeehhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaa yeah yeah!!!!!! :D

I soooooooooooo cannot wait!!!!

- - -

So Chuck any chance of seeing the vX interface in 8 then!!!

;)

Lewis
04-25-2003, 03:38 PM
Great news Chuck :).

Hiraghm
04-25-2003, 04:00 PM
Hi Chuck!

Can you at least tell us if the .lwo and/or .lws file formats will be changed?

I don't visit the Feature Request forum because I'm still trying to deal with all the features it has.

Zithen
04-25-2003, 04:50 PM
Will there be a beta force program like LW6 had? That was a cool way to test the new architecture. Maybe Newtek could do the same with LW8, since there's going to be some changes to the workflow and UI.

Great to hear there are good things in store for LW later this year.

So I guess those newly hired programmers really would be working on LW8.

So Chuck, just how big of a "Wow" do you think we'll give when we see this thing? :)

TyVole
04-25-2003, 05:13 PM
Chuck,

I have a question. When you say "purchased after April 1, 2003" does that mean when you ordered it, when you received it, or when you registered it?

The reason I'm asking is that I ordered 7.5 on March 27, but I received and registered it on April 7. Would I be able to get the free upgrade?

turbo
04-25-2003, 05:32 PM
:( sob. :( ... purchased in november.. in canada.. upgrade cost is prohibitive... sob :(

SolidServo
04-25-2003, 06:01 PM
Frelling outstanding!!!!


:cool: :cool:

hrgiger
04-25-2003, 06:15 PM
As far as LW8 goes, I agree with Matt Clary. Woohoo!!

Chuck,

Do you mean the feature poll I started about what features you would want in Lightwave 8? That's kind of exciting because the two most popular wishes out of the list was improved softbodies and also 3D paint which would totally rock and be worth the upgrade in itself (considering that most of the 3D paint tools are $400 themselves). Obviously, you can't reveal anything yet but it's good to know that NT has been watching that poll with interest!

Videolink
04-25-2003, 06:35 PM
Lightwave ?
i think they should take the 8
drop it sideways
and it will become
Lightwave infinity





btw

we have 1 LW7 in stock
selling for $1999.00 Canadian
includes shipping and training tape
and yes of course includes a free upgrade to 8
:D

dmoc
04-25-2003, 06:38 PM
Unfortunately I'm one of those who have had LW7.5 for less than a year but bought months before 1st April. Paid full price, got no tutorial material what-so-ever and a manual which for the money was disappointing to say the least. I spent most of the first six months struggling through the manual (and I'm no dimwit, just new to LW). I would urge NewTek to reconsider either the qualifying date for free updates or the update cost. A lot has changed in the past year and there are some very good lower cost options on the market. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of LW and believe I made the right choice at the time, but there is little chance of me paying more for an upgrade than it would cost to switch to an alternative, reasonably capable, package.

Fabio
04-25-2003, 06:38 PM
OK lots of replies here and I'm extremely lazy - so slap me and then tell me if anyone has mentioned the likely cost of upgrading for 7.5 customers pre April01?

Many thanks

Fabs' :)

riki
04-25-2003, 08:32 PM
Oh that's very good news, thanks Chuck. I'll have to start saving :-)

But the release date is not until the 3rd quater of this year. That's cool but now we have to put up with 4 months of, "I think it should be free" "when is it coming" "what about 7.5 users". I know each and every question is valid, but 4 months of this is going to drive everyone crazy.

hrgiger
04-25-2003, 08:42 PM
Originally posted by dmoc
A lot has changed in the past year and there are some very good lower cost options on the market. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of LW and believe I made the right choice at the time, but there is little chance of me paying more for an upgrade than it would cost to switch to an alternative, reasonably capable, package.

Hmmm...Lightwave is one of the lower cost packages out there. What's lower? Poser? Animation Master? Truespace? Lower cost? Sure. Alternative to Lightwave. Not even close really. I've used all of the above packages selling the former to get to the next one and so on until I made the right choice by selling Truespace to get Lightwave. It was like switching from Rosie O'Donnel to get to Jennifer Garner.
Not to mention you don't have to upgrade as soon as it's available. Just because it's there doesn't mean you have to use it. Hell, I'd be happy if I bought Lightwave 7 and I only had to wait as long as you for an upgrade. I've been waiting for a year and a half as it is now.

Here's your slap Fabio (and if you're the real Fabio, here's another slap). The cost of upgrade currently is $395. It used to be $495 before the price drop. Whether it will change again, is anyone's guess.

archiea
04-25-2003, 08:43 PM
domc,

I don't think thats too fair, requesting an extension to the deal. What you paid for was the cost of LW at the time of purchase, assuming that you needed it then. I think that NT is being very generous with the April 1st date, considerign they could have made it the week of NAB, or even today. To say that people who purchase LW for the next 6 to eight months will get a free upgrade is immensly generous in a business that tends to extend upgrade pricing only a month or two.

I have two licenses for LW, one 7.5c, or excuse me, 7,5b, and 6.5. I've stalled on the 6.5 update since I've only been on one machine, and because I know that 8 was eminent, and that I deal was on the horizon.

I just hope 7.5c comes out far before siggraph!!!!

turbo
04-25-2003, 09:06 PM
*cries.. *sighs...
ok.. so $395 USD = $571.35 CAD
"sob" .. sorry can't help it. :(

This year's upgrades:
- OSX 10.3
- LW 8
- DP G4 1.25
- Apple Cinema Display

(in my dreams.... but just maybe the first 3 ;) :D)

*sigh...

Fabio
04-25-2003, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by hrgiger
Here's your slap Fabio (and if you're the real Fabio, here's another slap).

I'm not who you think I am - in the sense that when I see a bird flying towards me I tend to either Duck or shoot it! ;)

But I am real as in it is my Name! ;)

if they keep to that area for the upgrade - I'll be definately getting it - (fingers crossed that it won't be as buggy as 6 was when it first came out though)

Neil_Campbell
04-26-2003, 03:30 AM
Regarding the upgrade pricing, if it's as Matt & hrgiger suggest, personally I'm comfortable with that sort of price - in fact I'd pay a little more to get a more feature-rich update - and hell, LW would still be cheaper than Maya / Max / .....

Bottom line, if NT doesn't get adequate funding for its LW development team (from sale of licences and paid upgrades), LW won't have a future.

Rei
04-26-2003, 04:24 AM
I think the pricing is allright. I know I will be saving up now like mad so that i can afford the upgrade too!

Remember, if you dont like the price, go use Blender!

Rei

facial deluxe
04-26-2003, 05:37 AM
Dont care about the price, make it "better, faster, stronger"(Steve Austin)

mav3rick
04-26-2003, 05:37 AM
congrat newtek... way to go

hrgiger
04-26-2003, 05:45 AM
I was personally fine with the original $495 upgrade price and the price of Lightwave then was $2495 retail. I didn't want them to drop the price like they did because I just thought that they wouldn't have as much money for development of new features and upgrades.

And if anyone doesn't remember, the reason they dropped the price was that they were only charging a few thousand for the Video Toaster which by the way comes bundled with a copy of Lightwave. They figured they should either raise the price of VideoToaster or drop the price of Lightwave. I know they made a lot of people that they chose to drop the price. Newtek has always strived to make affordable software for the average user. I don't think I would be complaining too much about a $395 upgrade. That's cheap.

cresshead
04-26-2003, 06:32 AM
"meow" [cheshire cat style grin] :^)

thanks chuck for finally drawing a line through all those "out there" rumours and doubters.....

really looking forward to lw 8!

...my main hope...or feature?

a stunning tutorial book cd with lw 8..ask if maybe someone like 3dbuzz jason busby could do a new features.new workflo U.I
video cd....that would be fantastic....or do it inhouse with those nutters proton etc...

cheers and thanks for boosting my saturday [u.k]

steve g

dmg3d
04-26-2003, 10:33 AM
Holy Crap!

When I saw the "...NewTek noted that anyone who has purchases LightWave 3D [7.5] since April 1, 2003 will receive a free update by download once LightWave 3D [8] is released..." I had to run to check my receipt... I bought the upgrade on April 2!!

I guess sometimes it pays to procrastinate!

I think with the money I saved I'll get one of those new-fangled COLOR television sets...

-Dave

PuG
04-26-2003, 11:27 AM
Mighty anoying , i bought lightwave 3D 7.5 March 19, and I still have a running problem with the dongle and the fact their replacement is still faulty and its now April 26.

Its not like its a cheap program to start with (perhaps cheaper than the rest on the market) and had they mentioned this earlier I would of waited a week before purchasing it.

heh oh well

Lamont
04-26-2003, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by PuG
Mighty anoying , i bought lightwave 3D 7.5 March 19, and I still have a running problem with the dongle and the fact their replacement is still faulty and its now April 26. I wouldn;t mind bar the fact that if I new this I would of waited last week before buying it and its not like I can afford the upgrade.It's a risk you take when you buy ANYTHING. If I sat and anticipated a price-drop for everything I bought, I'd have nothing.

turbo
04-26-2003, 11:40 AM
I'm not complaining.. :) ...Just getting ready to bite the bullet.. :p I know it costs time and money to develop. ;) heheheh... (http://korner.krabbit.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=45)

Pensart
04-26-2003, 12:31 PM
Hi Chuck,

What about the Mac version?
Will it be released the same time as the pc version?

Greetz,

PuG
04-26-2003, 12:56 PM
I do understand what you mean but it still a shame. The offer should apply to anyone who bought Lightwave 3D 7.5 from Jan 1st but then that would be a little to genrous.

Some of the new featues sound pritty good.

Lamont
04-26-2003, 01:00 PM
Why not have the offer stand for people who bought it December 1st? What about the people who bought it at Siggraph? I mean, Newtek knew they were going to release 8 after all.

Psyhke
04-26-2003, 01:02 PM
I think it should only apply to anyone who purchases 30 days before the release. They're too generous.

archiea
04-26-2003, 01:03 PM
How about for people like me who've had LW since ver 1.0?

Oh wait, now that sounds rediculas...

Lamont
04-26-2003, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by Psyhke
I think it should only apply to anyone who purchases 30 days before the release. They're too generous. I feel the same way.
How about for people like me who've had LW since ver 1.0?Yeah!! That's it!! No, wait a sec...

cresshead
04-26-2003, 01:19 PM
correct me if i'm wrong but upgrading isn't compulsory yet is it?

if people think it's not fair or too expensive..don't do it...

i didn't with max 5..i'm still on max 4.2 and character studio 3...not max 5.1 and character studio 4...i took the decision that max 5 was too expensive and bloaty for me..i'd have liked to upgrade character studio to version 4 but discreet made it that it would only run CS4 on max 5.1....even though discreet said what a great upgrade max 5 was seeing as nearly all plugins would work without re compiling them for max 5.......except THE plugin made by discreet...character studio 4!..Hmmm i smell a rat!

the cost of that upgrade would be the same as a full seat ofmaya 5 complete.
max 5 update £710
character studio 4 £300
subscription for 12 months £400

so lightwave's $395 is very small....and note lightwaves update is in dollars not pounds sterling.

this summer should be interesting...

lightwave 8
max 5.5 or better yet a totoal re write of 3dsmax [maybe]
maya 5
motion builder for $200

steve g

hrgiger
04-26-2003, 06:08 PM
I think they're being generous by offering a free upgrade as far back as April 1st. I seem to remember when 7 came out that they were only offering the free upgrade for a few months back and now it looks like they're going to be offering at least 4-6 months. Lamont is dead on. If they made it Jan 1st, then the people who bought it in December mad. You can't keep going back because somebody bought it the month before that. You have to be somewhat reasonable.

Stewpot
04-26-2003, 06:55 PM
I note with interest there is no mention of modelling tools, increased render speed, better radiosity, and as someone else mentioned shading and texturing tools. Or killing the bugs that are still there from 7.0, like for instance mis-selection of polys when makin close up selections. You end up with polys totally unrelated to those you have selected.

It doesn't sound to me like a major upgrade list to me.

And I'm sorry cresshead, but for me those doubts and rumours aren't dead yet.

Think on, this is a company which isn't known for giving prerelease information.

Lamont
04-26-2003, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by Stewpot
It doesn't sound to me like a major upgrade list to me.Strange... I don't see this list you speak of. It's in plain text "We aren't telling exactly what has been done...". I love how people just assume. Don't you?

Lamont
04-26-2003, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by Chuck
We hate to be teases (no really! ;)), but we aren't ready to post feature information at this time, beyond the broad categories mentioned above. Sorry! :) See?

Stewpot
04-26-2003, 07:06 PM
Hi Lamont,


The list:


[QUOTE]Development for this release of LightWave® will focus on workflow and user interface improvements. In addition, LightWave [8] will include enhancements to character animation tools and game development tools, as well as improved integration with other production tools and with 3rd party add-ons.

And Chuck still doesn't name any other 'broad categories'. Which after all wouldn't be giving much away.

Lamont
04-26-2003, 07:07 PM
I see. It is an extensive list.

In the areas you mentioned hasn't there ALWAYS been an improvement with each full/half version?

hrgiger
04-26-2003, 09:22 PM
Originally posted by Chuck

Improvements would not be limited to those categories mentioned. Can't be more specific than that at this time.



Meaning Stewpot, that the things Chuck mentioned aren't the only new features to be released in 8. Not to mention that Chuck says it's not too late to make feature requests so they probably don't have a full feature list yet anyway.

And what other 3D company are you thinking of that does give pre-release information?

Lamont
04-26-2003, 09:37 PM
What are you talkin' 'bout Hrgiger? That's concrete, factual evidence that supports Stewpots claims.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

hrgiger
04-26-2003, 10:45 PM
Gotya Lamont...:rolleyes:

Titus
04-26-2003, 11:51 PM
Maybe this (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=77&ncid=77&e=5&u=/mc/20030425/tc_mc/lightwave_3d__8__to_debut_at_siggraph_2003) is too general but is more than Chuck informed.

Lamont
04-26-2003, 11:59 PM
That's just the press release...

Zithen
04-27-2003, 12:18 AM
I would guess it would be only reasonable to not have a feature list now since LW8 is about six months away from release.

A focus on workflow and UI improvements suggests to me that LW8's design will be quite different (better) than LW7. So the way we're working in LW7, will most likely not be the way we'll be working in LW8. Nothing to sneeze at there. I think that's pretty significant.
Improved integration with other production tools suggests to me an enhancement to the LW API so that LW8 can do something like that. The current API certainly does not enable much of any integration. Even plug-ins aren't always well integrated. Again, pretty sweet news.
And Chuck didn't say "new" or even "better" character and game tools. He said "enhanced", which suggests to me that the present LW7 tools (bones, MM2, etc.) have been redesigned or reworked to perform better. So they are not merely additions. The LW7 tools may not even exist in LW8.
This isn't a feature list. Features are added to a design. An enhancement is a redesign. A new model. It seems this announcement was a way of saying that there will be some major changes to the way LW works and operates.

So this seems big folks. I could be wrong. But not since LW6 has there been an "improvement" to workflow. And this seems to be the "focus" for this release. Can we get excited?

Rei
04-27-2003, 06:39 AM
Can we get excited?

Yes :D

Dick Ma
04-27-2003, 06:56 AM
Someone please spread some rumours...like fake functions, fake UI, fake screenshots so that Newtek stand out to "clarify" the New Lightwave 8? (This is a trick! hahaha.)

Feel bored about the increments of the version number. (I remember something what Lightwave "seven" "point " "pi"). marketing please do something gimmicks to make sales up.

Please do something feel FRESH for me or everyone. At least expose something new like new Lightwave 8 logo, a confirmed date of sales, or a specific homepages for fans, etc. Newtek announcement just have a feeling that to do something to face competitions from Maya 5 or Softimage XSI 3.5. But that is no use if there is no feature list shown.

Out of topic: Does Lightwave world tour afraid of SARS? Please organize one conference in HONGKONG, CHINA, TAIWAN. A|W and Discreet had already do marketing in HK. Don't let HK user disappointed.

archiea
04-27-2003, 07:15 AM
Hey, isn't the annoucement of ver 8 exciting enough?

hrgiger
04-27-2003, 09:25 AM
Originally posted by Dick Ma
Someone please spread some rumours...like fake functions, fake UI, fake screenshots so that Newtek stand out to "clarify" the New Lightwave 8? (This is a trick! hahaha.)



That's never helped during this whole Lux/NT thing, it's not going to work now either.

Matt
04-27-2003, 02:11 PM
Dick Ma Wrote:

Someone please spread some rumours...like fake functions, fake UI, fake screenshots . . .

well here is this official packaging for lightwave 8, honest ;)

http://www.creactive-design.co.uk/temp/lw8_pack.jpg

:)

Rei
04-27-2003, 02:27 PM
ohhh, I like it.

Hey NT take note, the LW 7.x pakaging was to sparse and white. Red is good, functional and Alive!

Creation Station, that is great :D

Karl Hansson
04-27-2003, 03:14 PM
Nice package but...nah... Red was used for Lightwave [6]. I'd like blue to be the color of [8]?

jin choung
04-27-2003, 04:07 PM
lightwave 6 was a diabolical red.

lightwave 7 was a heavenly white

lightwave 8 should naturally be BLACK!

come on people... it's all graphic design stuff! black would be perfect.

although i do like the canadian dude's idea about the INFINITY symbol... that's pretty cool. we can take PBS's "infinitely more" ad campaign too....

-----------------------------------------------

price-wise, nobody beats newtek. have you guys seen the prices for max and maya? and you think that they will hold your hand about how you bought the last one a few months ago?

at least with newtek, even if you're a couple versions behind, you can still buy into the newest version at the one low price.

and i am completely with tim jenison's everyman vision for software. i'm glad he dropped the price, i'm glad lw is still on the cutting edge of price and it is that kind of philosophy that keeps me a newtek fan.

------------------------------------------------------

i too am disappointed about the lack of mention of a few features that i've been clamoring for and have been eagerly awaiting since 6.

- edges
- edge sharpening
- sds uvmapping distortion fix

i hope against hope that these will be addressed this time out.

jin

Hiraghm
04-27-2003, 04:38 PM
A gradient... Gradient blue, gradient grey, or gradient green, for the 8.0 box.

Or maybe a "landscape" gradient. From the bottom up, brown, tan, green, light blue, dark blue.

No, I have it....

CHROME!

(with rivets)

Dick Ma
04-27-2003, 05:06 PM
To Matt:

Then Newtek will come out and say: "We won't ship with skinny box for our feature product: Lightwave 8" Just kidding!

More, more and more rumours please....

Beamtracer
04-27-2003, 05:28 PM
What if Luxology releases a competing product before LW8?

Dick Ma
04-27-2003, 05:28 PM
But Newtek, please remember leave some space for us to customize the UI.

My Current LW:

hrgiger
04-27-2003, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
What if Luxology releases a competing product before LW8?

What if they do? What if Don Rickles plays wolverine in the next X-men movie? And exactly how much wood, could a woodchuck chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck wood? All good questions. :rolleyes:

craigt
04-27-2003, 06:56 PM
I never knew that a woodchuck could chuck wood like Chuck could. :D

Craig

robewil
04-27-2003, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
What if Luxology releases a competing product before LW8?

Stop This Now! Personally, I'm getting real tired of every Lightwave thread digressing into "Newtek vs Lux*****"

Lamont
04-27-2003, 09:12 PM
But what if Luxology and Newtek combined their powers? I think they could form Devestator and crush the Autobots.

jin choung
04-27-2003, 09:40 PM
give it up people,

newtek's development of lw 8 can imply many things but one thing that it absolutely, DECISIVELY EXPLICATES:

NEWTEK HAS NO RELATIONSHIP WITH LUXOLOGY WHATSOEVER.

besides, luxology will be announcing their own "big news" pretty soon after siggraph too so it won't be long now.

and i'll bet that after that announcement, they will radically change their tune and their path will be decisively separate from lw and newtek... probably their own competing app....

personally, i'll be happy when it all becomes absolutely clear and we won't have to keep reminding people of this unstitchable rift.

jin

Lamont
04-27-2003, 09:43 PM
You're missing the point Jin...

DEVASTATOR!!!
http://botchthecrab.com/archive/decepticon/1985/devastator.jpg

Zithen
04-27-2003, 09:51 PM
Hell yeah!

Lamont
04-27-2003, 09:53 PM
Yeeeeeaaahh.. Zithen knows what it's all about...

jin choung
04-27-2003, 10:02 PM
yup,

ya got me.

i have no idea what the [email protected]#$ "it's all about".... and certainly not what that picture has to do with anything.

jin

hrgiger
04-27-2003, 10:15 PM
I think it has to do with nothing. Just the same as any stupid Lux/NT debate.

And a hearty hell yeah to the contructicons!

Lamont
04-27-2003, 10:20 PM
It's Devestator. Devestator's what 'it's all about'.

NEWTEK HAS NO RELATIONSHIP WITH LUXOLOGY WHATSOEVERYes they do. Brad Peebler works there. Like six degrees of seperation, but it's only one degree.

Just throwing napalm on the flames while my thumbs rest from a heafty bout of Ikaruga (http://cube.ign.com/articles/393/393040p1.html)...

Red_Oddity
04-28-2003, 02:45 AM
Holy hell Dick Ma....

Let me guess, you come home everyday after work with bloodshot eyes and a splitting headache?

Dodgy
04-28-2003, 02:50 AM
"CONSTRUCTICONS! Merge for the KILL!" Megatron, Transformers the movie.... Not a fan at ALLLLL :)

I've noticed will the new suite of plugins from

http://www.davidikeda.com/

that when you add them, they automatically add their own plugin group, and arrange them in the modeler interface. Is this new in LW 7.5b, cause I don't remember this happening in modeler with any other plugin I've added? They always went in additional before.

This certainly helps UI organisation (Okay so I immediately rearranged them into my own style, but it's a start!)

Dick Ma
04-28-2003, 03:22 AM
Originally posted by Red_Oddity
Holy hell Dick Ma....

Let me guess, you come home everyday after work with bloodshot eyes and a splitting headache?

Sorry Red_Oddity,

I have good eyeslights without wearing glasses.
(Don't be jealious.)

But I like LW because I feel freedom, can other 3D package make fun with color?

Hervé
04-28-2003, 03:23 AM
Heh he he.... have you noticed..? although they seam to be dedicated to LW, Luxology does not even mention the LW8 upcoming.....
but meanwhile they are still promoting books about LW..... cool....

Martok
04-28-2003, 08:30 AM
[email protected]$#@^$%^$# go ahead make my day!! nothing will make me more surprised than hearing this good news :P

pixelmonk
04-28-2003, 10:48 AM
Funny but I saw it coming.... people bitched about Newtek not coming out with a new version while the other developers were announcing their update. People bitched about the Newtek and Luxology issue and nothing would ever be done with Lightwave again.

Then, Newtek states issues with Luxlogy have been resolved (nfi), announces Lightwave 8 and now people are bitching about pricing on the ugprade (not apologizing or recognizing their errors in judgement about the future of Lightwave), even though the upgrade pricing has remained steady, if not better, over the past 4 versions. Gotta love people that moan for the sake of hearing themselves moan!

Thank you Newtek for trying to deliver a kick-butt product despite the whining from others and the down-sizing that has happened industry-wide. It's not easy to please everyone, but rest assured a larger percentage of us are content than those who sit on the sidelines and complain or sing about gloom and doom.

C:\Lightwave7.5
<insert C:\Lightwave8>
C:\Maya5.0

(yup.. apps can co-exist)

Stewpot
04-28-2003, 10:59 AM
For Hiraghm the minimalist metal look box.

Karl Hansson
04-28-2003, 11:13 AM
Now that I like. Is that titanium? It should have a large LW logo gold emblem on the fromt. :)

Hiraghm
04-28-2003, 01:34 PM
I like it, Stewpot. Thanks!

Make the Lighwave logo a bit bigger, though. Make it reflective blue, kinda like a holograph effect. please? :D

(how'd you do that great chrome look?)

Beamtracer
04-28-2003, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by jin choung
besides, luxology will be announcing their own "big news" pretty soon after siggraph too so it won't be long now.

If that's the case, could Newtek's early LW8 announcement be a preemptive strike?

cornel
04-28-2003, 05:10 PM
what I'm worried about, is the release date: fourth quarter ! That usually means it will be finalized in december and will probably ship in february 04, after public bugfixing it will then be probably usable in July 04...

hrgiger
04-28-2003, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
If that's the case, could Newtek's early LW8 announcement be a preemptive strike?

Uh, probably not. Timing is right for a Lightwave upgrade.

Could we just leave Lux out of this for I don't know, 2 or 3 minutes?:rolleyes:

Hervé
04-28-2003, 11:32 PM
The fact is, they have just hired new coders, and LW8 does not exist yet, that's why they wont give you a features list, Go NT, Go , crack the whip.... ! ha ha

archiea
04-28-2003, 11:42 PM
uh, HERVE, there's no hand attached to the paintbrush.

:eek:

Hervé
04-29-2003, 12:42 AM
I know but it would be very hard to do one and animating.... I am way too lazy to animate complex stuff (also add the fact that after many years of LW -startedwithVer 5.5, I would not even know where to start...!)....ouh la la... sorry you dont like my avatar, I'll replace it later.... dont worry...

Have a nice day...

cresshead
04-29-2003, 01:47 AM
i know everyone trying to "read" more into the press release...

here's my observation....and both sides! just to confuse you all!

version 1
my only observations so far are that if the "update" to 8 can be downloaded then i'd really start ot doubt it's a re write with intergration of modeler and layout seeing as the download update seems to "patch" it up to version 8 somewhat like it was from 7 to 7.5...
version 2
still these are early days for version 8...maybe with newtek leaning more n more in the internet to service it's customers [making it cheaper for newtek] that a whole new lightwave 8 coud be in the pipe [integrated] and that the idea of the patch update is so that the new app can "see" that you have a legit lightwave 7.5 to update from. rather like the updates for microsoft frontpage 98 to fronpage 2000 for example.

steve g:cool:

pixelmonk
04-29-2003, 07:20 AM
Originally posted by cresshead
i know everyone trying to "read" more into the press release...

here's my observation....and both sides! just to confuse you all!

version 1
my only observations so far are that if the "update" to 8 can be downloaded then i'd really start ot doubt it's a re write with intergration of modeler and layout seeing as the download update seems to "patch" it up to version 8 somewhat like it was from 7 to 7.5...
version 2
still these are early days for version 8...maybe with newtek leaning more n more in the internet to service it's customers [making it cheaper for newtek] that a whole new lightwave 8 coud be in the pipe [integrated] and that the idea of the patch update is so that the new app can "see" that you have a legit lightwave 7.5 to update from. rather like the updates for microsoft frontpage 98 to fronpage 2000 for example.

steve g:cool:

Dude.. we downloaded Maya 5 from A|W since we're on maintenance. It's 140megs. Don't think just because might be available for download that it isn't a complete package.

cresshead
04-29-2003, 02:42 PM
yeh...i'm hoping for the "version 2" where it's a full on new lightwave 8...all bells whistles n load 3d noises!

cheers

steve g

pixelmonk
04-30-2003, 07:26 AM
Originally posted by cresshead
yeh...i'm hoping for the "version 2" where it's a full on new lightwave 8...all bells whistles n load 3d noises!

cheers

steve g

mmmm bells and whistles goodness. :)

Verlon
05-05-2003, 02:59 AM
Lightwave! Now with V8 power!

Or a MAX user grimacing in frustration, "Wow! I could've had a V8!"

You want a black box? Dracula says, "I caunt V8 vor my upgrade."

Or a 3D Pac-Man having just munched a blue ghost:
"Lightwave 8 maya 5.whatever."

Or a gold box covered in Spanish coins and.... "pieces of eight"



Bah, I could go on for days (probably 8 of them). In any event....I am very excited to hear about the new product. Now if only I could completely master 7.5b between now and Q4, I could get to complaining about all the features not Lightwave already. Since I haven't, its back to work for me.


Verlon

ackees
05-05-2003, 05:36 AM
I think NT should end ‘cloak and dagger’ LW releases they are slowing progress.

mattclary
05-05-2003, 05:41 AM
Yeah, not keeping us in the loop is really hindering their coders from working. :rolleyes:

ackees
05-05-2003, 06:29 AM
It’s not about show and tell secrets. There are basically two ways of working: you lock yourself in a cave for a year and emerge with your masterpiece to impress the world. Or you communicate with a community of like minds, you talk openly about your plans and share ideas. Many software companies are of the Cave school.

mattclary
05-05-2003, 07:02 AM
They listen to us more than you know. Save the complaining until you see what 8 has and has not.

hrgiger
05-05-2003, 08:27 AM
And even then, save the complaining.

mattclary
05-05-2003, 08:55 AM
Now now, Steve, let's be realistic. :D

ackees
05-05-2003, 09:35 AM
I am not complaining H. I think the process of development is accelerating and we need new ways to cope with this, the old ways may need change. The hardware developers may be ahead of the software developers, by this I mean what was a suitable WOW! development in the past now seems limited because in the past the possibilities were limited by the performance of the hardware, the most interest development I have seen recently has been hardware rendering, it’s interesting because it’s dangerous, if the hardware changes then you are in trouble.

JeromeMD
05-07-2003, 10:10 PM
I paid $120 for os X when it came out and that was a POS. So $395 (got this from NT CS) for LW8 will be a good deal. I'll wait my standard 3 months to upgrade anyway. Go NT. FYI I bought the 7.5b upgrade in march 2003 and have no issues with dishing out the do' for one of the best software on the market.

And not for nothing but LW is also one of the best community I have seen. This board is an example of that tradition. And it's an highly valuable asset. I probably saved thousand in training just by coming here.

Also, I read one guy crying about the LW manual. I bought PS 7 upgrade last year and it's the same manual as 5.5 except for maybe 2 chapters (they should have added a note explaining why they decided to put a rubber duckies brush). The LW manual is very complete and covered almost every questions I might have had. Also I am still laughing about the "love handles" joke. Finaly Macromedia will charge you for a CD and a 50 page retarded manual for flash MX.

My only concern would be the GUI. If NT goes the icon route please make sure we can revert to good old text. Other than that have fun ;)

ackees
05-08-2003, 01:52 AM
LW is really good value and it’s a really good 3D app. No doubt.
But I have seen really good things messed up. Macromedia is a strange company, I have seen them buy good apps. and rip the heart out of them (steal the technology) and then trash the rest, leaving users stranded. Pray this doesn’t happen to LW. Cloak and dagger methods can leave you fighting for your life in the dark alley of takeovers and buyouts

hrgiger
05-08-2003, 07:15 AM
There's nothing cloak and dagger about it. It has already been stated repeatedly that there are legal issues at hand and that people are not allowed to reveal any details at this time.
I imagine as well that it's advantageous not to reveal too much for competition sake. Companies are entitled to keep secrets to conduct business as they see fit. As we are not stockholders, I don't see how you can say anything otherwise. It has been duly noted that many people would like to know more, but it also should be duly noted that things will be unveiled when it is time.

archiea
05-08-2003, 07:44 AM
I say LW 1.0 owners can be called stock owners!!! :D

ackees
05-08-2003, 08:20 AM
Sorry H. My point was meant to be more general and philosophical (legal stuff, sounds hot and juicy though), nor was I trying to get hold of ‘secrets’, looks like I have accidentally pressed some kind of button on the ship and made it go wobbly. Oh! and by the way I don’t know what went on behind the scenes but whatever it was I am not connected to it or really bothered.

DaveToon
05-09-2003, 01:57 PM
I will be VERY disappointed if Lighwave and modeler are not integrated into one app! (Model history would be nice also!)

Please moderize your navagation as well. I know you don't want to be a Maya clone, but moving around a scene in Maya is a breeze.

I love Lightwave, and I always love new features, but (in my opinion) bringing Lightwaves interface up to a modern level is the best thing that can be done.


Dave

Doug Nicola
05-09-2003, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by DaveToon
but moving around a scene in Maya is a breeze.


Huh? Could you be more specific? I can move around in Layout so fast I feel like I'm going to fall through the screen sometimes.

What exactly is too slow for you, I'm curious?

DaveToon
05-09-2003, 06:06 PM
I guess you would have to try out Maya, but even with a huge scene, I can click and drag a box around an image and it centers in the screen and pivots around the object.

Everything in Maya has the XYZ arrows (Including points) so it is very easy to move objects in 3D space. Of course everything is integrated so everything works the same whether your modeling or animating.

I'm not very good at describing it, but I have used both programs professionally for years (and like them both). Try out the Maya learning edition and I think you will like the navigation.


Dave

Doug Nicola
05-09-2003, 07:41 PM
Thanks Dave,

That does explain what you're getting at with navigation...

I actually downloaded Maya PLE two days ago, and am planning on practicing with it more and more, but right now my learning curve is devoted to LW. I do like the idea of being comfortable with both LW and Maya, as I plan to run my own character-animation focused business, and work freelance, so multiple tools will be very useful.

But honestly my first few hours with Maya almost made my brain melt, such was the difference in style from LW.:D

Hervé
05-09-2003, 11:44 PM
But honestly my first few hours with Maya almost made my brain melt, such was the difference in style from LW

Same for me.... but I have to say for some reason it looks more pro.... except the little Icons, jeeeez I hate that...

ackees
05-10-2003, 02:39 AM
This is exactly what I have been trying to get at. LW is under threat and I don’t NT realise it. Maya is doing exactly what Photoshop did years ago and it destroyed the competition, I also think they have been learning from Microsoft. The threat is more strategic than technical.

Hervé
05-10-2003, 07:29 AM
Hummmm, Alias is a big company with lots of cash.... and usually, large brains (aka real good coders and the like) go with the cash...... flow.... we'll see....

Chuck
05-10-2003, 08:01 AM
Originally posted by ackees
This is exactly what I have been trying to get at. LW is under threat and I don’t NT realise it. Maya is doing exactly what Photoshop did years ago and it destroyed the competition, I also think they have been learning from Microsoft. The threat is more strategic than technical.

We are always aware that not only do we have to develop a product that meets the needs of our customers with a toolset that is powerful, fast, flexible and clearly the best in terms of price/performance, but that we need to always keep a close eye on both the technology and the strategies of our competitors, just as they keep an eye on their competitors, including us. Alias/Wavefront have no doubt picked up on strategies that Adobe or Microsoft have used, but then over the years they've picked up strategies and tactics from others as well and have also had their own unique strategies for making things tough for competitors - these characteristics are not new.

Hervé
05-10-2003, 08:56 AM
In other words, you say competition is tough in 3D, and there are tactics from all sides, I would like to be a mouse to discover the tactics of NT Vs. competitors, so I hope NT has a secret weapon to kill them all at Sig 03, as I said, we'll see.....


aaaahhhh Competition... competition....!

Let's go Who ??!!
Let's go New !!!
Let's go NeeewTeeeeekkk !!!

We should have a fan team ! what's the score yet ??

Doug Nicola
05-10-2003, 10:12 AM
Photoshop destroyed the competition before the race even got started. You can do that in the early stages of a new market, if you're smart (ala Microsoft). But this is a very mature market (for software, at least), and it's more like trench warfare where everyone's dug in and not much moves.

Doesn't mean there won't be trends and changes though, but fergoodnessake, NT has been successful in this war for a LONG time, so I don't think they'll be taken by surprise by anyone.

HA HA HA...go team go!!!
:)

Hervé
05-11-2003, 01:34 AM
Let's support our team then !!

Allez Netwtek, allez !! (french support)

ackees
05-11-2003, 04:25 AM
Doug, the comment about Photoshop is not quite right. In the early days there were other packs equally as good if not better (a bit like 3D today), what Photoshop did was to make their application ubiquitous, it was everywhere. If you bought a scanner you got a free copy, every student had a copy, by the time the competition had figured out what was going on it was too late, their user base became too small (dedicated users of colour studio would moan about it being better and if only people knew, but the truth was the user base had shrunk too small for the company to continue with the product. Why would anyone buy another product for $800 when they could upgrade their LE Photoshop for $200). I am seeing a similar aggressive marketing strategy going on now in 3D, the gloves are off, the level of marketing sophistication has risen in this area. The old process of a hot new release once a year at a profile event may have worked in the past but its too linear for today’s markets.

j3st3r
05-11-2003, 06:20 AM
As far as I see, maya proceeds well with its strategy. Maya proce has been dropped to the level, which is between Lightwave and Max. Maya became the most popular 3d app, whatever the lightwave fans say.

I`ve read too many comments, that "with LW you can do the same but within less time, less costs, and much-much better", so I asked my friends, who were working with LW and later migrated to Maya. I do believe them. They told me, that in Maya there are many ways to solve a problem, and this many way could be reapplicated in the future, anytime. Maybe Maya is not as good in modelling as LW is (it depends on really the attitude) but it`s flexibility offers a great advantage comparing to LW.

Currently, maya offers lot more possibility than LW. Check out Highend3d, there are free scripts, shaders, wich are solved in LW via (to me) expensive plugins. Maya has the open, flexible architecture what LW doesn`t have currently.

The only benefit LW offers, it`s multipurpose bone system, and the great modeler. Rendering is not outstanding for today, as Mental Ray is included in Maya. The Layout/Modeler split is rather annoying, if you are working with huge textures. Maya can smooth UV of smoothed (like subpatched) surfaces, LW doesn`t. And Maya viewports are lot faster than LW. What more needed?

C`mon, Newtek, I`d like to stay with LW, but my employers prefer Maya...if LW doesn`t offer something OUTSTANDING...

ackees
05-11-2003, 09:59 AM
I believe what you say j3st3r,
because that’s what I am seeing on the ground, it’s the new kids on the block, they have no fixed loyalties and at the moment they see Maya as sexy and LW not, this is crucial because once the user base shrinks NT will not have the resources to keep up, they will just slide back into a niche product. I went into a bookshop yesterday to browse for 3D books and overnight everything had changed, where you would once get 5 or 6 max books say a couple LW books (you know the ones by Dan Ablan, on thick paper to make it look like you have value for money) and the odd Maya book it had now changed to a whole shelf of very slick Maya books, full colour throughout, well designed, very sexy looking coffee table type books, I almost bought one just for the images and the design. Now this kind of approach is going to be tough for NT, Maya has moved up a gear in their marketing and it’s aimed at the next generation of users.

Lamont
05-11-2003, 10:12 AM
It also depends on territory how marketing should change.

As far as I know, we only have like 2 magazines for Lightwave here in the United States.

Chuck
05-11-2003, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by ackees
say a couple LW books (you know the ones by Dan Ablan, on thick paper to make it look like you have value for money)

1,140 pages on thin paper, and the value is there for both beginners and the experienced. If you want to make a case, sticking to facts and avoiding cheap (and untruthful) shots might be useful. There are a number of new LightWave books forthcoming. "The battle of the bookstore shelves" certainly is something to consider, as is the availability of training in other media and in schools. We're very mindful of that and making the best use of our resources to address such things. Concrete suggestions are certainly welcome.

archiea
05-11-2003, 11:26 AM
Actually there is an "art of Maya" book that is really nice and explains many facets of 3D in large colorful images. ahhh... perdy.....

ackees
05-11-2003, 01:55 PM
Chuck, actually it’s the style of the book that’s the point not the content (I have both books and they are fantastic), you see that style came from an old value for money school in computer books, they are all like that (it’s got to look thick to make people pay so much for it, it’s all to do with the quality of the paper, really good quality rag paper doesn’t bulk up so, I mean these books have 860 pages and are as thick as my dictionary at 2152 pages). No the whole thing is about a shift in style and visual sophistication, the app, the book and the resulting product are becoming lifestyle statements. It is a new battle front opening up. The LW 6.5 magic is closer to this.

Hervé
05-11-2003, 11:48 PM
Question :

As a LW'er, when I opened Maya, I was Blown away with the number of stuff inside the program.... but completely lost, as I said everything looks very productive (no Hypervoxels, but smoke, fire , water, and all those nice brushes you can really use.... I mean I did not (in the first impression) find commercial gimmicks (aka tools who promess, but in fact....), so as I said I was pretty much totally lost.... so my question is ..... is a Maya user also very lost when he first open LW ? or is it looking easy and un-pro compare of what he is using to..?

Last thing... it looks stable as a rock.... I tried to freak the program by clicking everywhere very fast...... solid I guess...

Oh and when I look their dynamics Vs. MD, whooooaaaoouu !!

this is true, NT, wake up.......!!! or at least tell us you are ....

sailor
05-12-2003, 12:21 AM
well Herve the Maya guys are as lost as u when they firts open LW...:)

no Maya isnt very stable to tell ya the truth...not as stable as LW...but stable enough to work with...actually i really think LW is a great program and i personally feel a little bit "betrayed" by NT by not makin the right decisions (in my opinion) lately...and all this stuff goin on between NT and Luxology doesnt help see clearly the future...i had the feelin of sein in realtime the progress of Maya in certain domains where they wre supposed to be weak compared to LW...now the main prob i personally have with LW are at the moment impossible to solve....and there is no workaround for that i'm afraid....like modeling in the camera view...this is such a great limitation that ALL the LW guys were forced to move to Maya for that task....period.
as a modeler i first found lots of my favorite tools like bandsaw, knife etc...lackin...now i have them all in Maya and errr...they have even some extra functions...

WizCraker
05-12-2003, 12:28 AM
I agree, Maya does have a lot of stuff in it but so does Lightwave, it just may not be well documented or easy to find. Granted the icons in Maya take a little use to but in 5.0 they are self explanatory under surface the sphere is ment for a NURBS sphere, under Fluids it you can find the controls for the ocean and such. Maya 5.0 Unlimited Interface (http://www.imagereality.com/Images/NewtekImages/Maya5/Maya5_01.jpg) - 105k for 56k users -

The movies at the start for new users help to navigate and move around [this is a nice touch and I would recommend it for Newtek]

I have not used it much I just installed it to check performance a test out new features. I have it on a 900mhz AMD Athlon with 512 MB RAM. using a Geforce 4 MX 420. And it runs kind of slugish. Lightwave 7.5b runs smooth and fast on this same system. I use to run Lightwave on my old Inspiron 7000 Laptop, it was a 300mhz with only 96 MB RAM and a 8 MB ATI Card. It ran smooth on it. Now I use my New Laptop (http://www.graveline.com/nav/entryformgatep4.html) that I won from Into Tomorrow.

I used Maya 2.5 when I was at University #2 and I found it to be easier to pick up and use. Its modeling is simlar to Lightwave Modeler once you get the hang of it, a lot simpler than Max and Houdini IMO, which I both have used.

I started with Lightwave back in 1995, I kept telling my self I would move fully over to Maya but I kept buying the upgrades to Lightwave [every major point release i.e 6, 7]. Every time I tried to move to Maya I thought to myself, what would I benefit from it? I'm comfortable with Lightwave, sure Maya has some nice features in it without cryptic interfaces, but Newtek seems to take care of their customers, plus there is no maintence fee, and tech support is free.

My next purchase from Newtek will be the VT3 [i've been wanting one since I first saw them in VideoToaster Mag, I think that was the name, maybe had a Pro after it]. I wonder if we current Lightwave owners will be able to get a discount on it?

sailor
05-12-2003, 12:36 AM
and dont forget for those "icon killers" out there (i also hate icons !!) that the Icons in Maya are mostly in the shelves taht u can turn off...95 percent of the commands are in plain TEXT...so the icon guerilla is just stoopid....for extrudin a face just look for extrude face....for bevel bevel etc...i never understood that "icon" comparison and yes of course LW interface is much more elegant and fancy but do u think this is really a great argument?

WizCraker
05-12-2003, 01:10 AM
Originally posted by sailor
i personally feel a little bit "betrayed" by NT by not makin the right decisions (in my opinion) lately...and all this stuff goin on between NT and Luxology doesnt help see clearly the future...

I get a couple free mags called Baseline: The Bottom Line in IT [$35 a year] and CIO INSIGHT [$295 a year] both published by Ziff Davis Media.

Both are really good, they talk about making buisness decisions and show case studies of what major companies do when a crisis comes about. In this months Baseline they had an article titled: Making Decisions--Can You Trust Your Vendor? in the article they they talk about NDA's that the Developers sign with a company. In there they have a section that talks about Proprietary code, It reads:


Remember, 'Proprietary' is Fuzzy. You may think all intellectual property created for you is yours, but you may not always be able to claim sole ownership. A vendor may say, "Hey, I created this widget, and I should be able to take that knowledge to my next client." There are no easy answers to such questions, says attorney Susan Meyer.

Subsitute Developer=Vendor, Newtek=You, Theirs=Yours
to understand the quote better.

In my opinon I think this is what is going on. Stuart and Allen are saying they built Lightwave and Modeler for Newtek but they are moving on to other things now. They want to use the knowledge they gained to make other products. Newtek has stated over and over that Stuart and Allen have a contract that states they can not make a competing product with Lightwave 3D [This was stated by Chuck, on the old forum]. So I leave you to ponder this last quote from the article, and hopefully allow you the user understand that Newtek is still strong in their development even though they have legality issues with developers.


Think Before You Sue. Proving an NDA can be very difficult. If you think your vendor has divulged or is using confidential information for secondary purposes, assess the current and potential damage before spending time and money on legal proceedings.

ackees
05-12-2003, 02:25 AM
Wow! so that's why some people are so jumpy. Serious stuff!

colkai
05-12-2003, 07:11 AM
So let me get this straight.
People feel "betrayed" because Newtek didn't make the same decisions they would have made.
Newtek should wake up and inform us of what they are doing.
Maya is a cheap and more powerful than LW and if Newtek don't do it "right" - people are going to jump ship.

Now last time I checked, no users here are in control of the management strategy or development at Newtek. Also, the concept of "right" is highly subjective, you only have to take a look at the feature requests to see this. There are as many "must have" features as there are users, most have their own idea of which is more important.

Secondly, if Maya is so good and you're fed up with LW, move packages, don't spend all your time berating Newtek and Lightwave. Maya is cheap, has more support is better, so move already. Don't just sit there saying, "if you don't do X I'm leaving".

I've used some other 3D software in the past, but did not feel the need to slam into the company when I ran into limitations, I just stopped using it and shifted to something else. If you can't afford to move, then the whole argument become moot, you have what you have.

There are so many LW / NT bashing threads at present, I am amazed Chuck even bothers to respond. When he does, it is normally dismissed / ignored, or seen as some subterfuge.

Chuck has already stated, any outstanding "matters" have been resolved, so continually dredging up the whole Luxology / Newtek thing does no-one any favours. Certainly, it does a fine example of promoting the competition. "See, even LW users think it is rubbish" - great advertising!

A big problem here I think is that Newtek are in a way, too approachable. I don't think anyone would realistically expect Microsoft to give a damn what users thought was essential. In fact, I'm pretty sure, the question wouldn't even be brought up as they are so unreachable.

All this supposition and bashing of both company and product may just start to put the thought in to the powers at Newtek that being un-approachable has its benefits!

If the next incarnation of LW doesn't have what I want / need, I'll make a decision at that time whether to buy it, based on the information AT THE TIME OF RELEASE. I certainly don't feel the need to spend the whole time in the interim digging over the same old ground.

For me, what Wizcraker says makes sense.
LW feels "comfortable" to use, Newtek do listen to CONSTRUCTIVE observations, Lw has some pretty cool features and works well on a half-decent PC, no need for a powerhouse. For me, regardless of which is "best", this is why I like LW.

Chuck
05-12-2003, 08:21 AM
Originally posted by ackees
Chuck, actually it’s the style of the book that’s the point not the content (I have both books and they are fantastic), you see that style came from an old value for money school in computer books, they are all like that (it’s got to look thick to make people pay so much for it, it’s all to do with the quality of the paper, really good quality rag paper doesn’t bulk up so, I mean these books have 860 pages and are as thick as my dictionary at 2152 pages). No the whole thing is about a shift in style and visual sophistication, the app, the book and the resulting product are becoming lifestyle statements. It is a new battle front opening up. The LW 6.5 magic is closer to this.

Granted, I've only been around about half a century, but to my observation pretty much everything is and has always been printed on substantially thicker paper than dictionaries, encyclopedias, and bibles. It has nothing to do specifically with any tradition exclusive to the computer book segment of the publishing industry. Computer books are printed on the same types of paper as other kinds of hardback and trade paperback format books, fiction and nonfiction.

ackees
05-12-2003, 09:19 AM
The whole thing about computer books and how they appear is an attempt to articulate a difficult point, the thickness of the book is just a symbol of this, we all know it is the content that is important. But what I have seen seems to be the beginning of some kind of paradigm shift in the marketing of those books, which means the audience has changed. I think there is an attempt to link the journey through the book with the processes within the software and the connection of the software’s interface with the user lifestyle. In other words you buy the software because it fits a lifestyle choice, not necessarily because it’s the best package.

mattclary
05-12-2003, 09:55 AM
Until the Maya price drop, I NEVER saw a Maya book on the shelf, of course Tallahassee is kinda small, but I never had a problem finding LightWave books. Funny, as many LW books move through the store, there must be more users in my area than I thought... Inside LW and LW appiled are both pretty freakin healthy sized books. On the subject of content, I bought a couple of books on Max in the past, and they NEVER provided the amount of USEFUL info (i.e. actual tutorials) that my LightWave books provide. Crap, some chapters of the various books I own are books unto themselves.

colkai
05-12-2003, 11:17 AM
Matt,
I think that pretty much applies to any book by Dan 'Da Man' ;)
These are indispensable books for learning and certainly weigh down a good part of *my* bookshelves.

The only critisism I could level at them in terms of content is that one page can be taken up with the instructions for a couple of bevels. Then again, that also makes them easily readable. For old farts like myself, with dodgy eyesight, that is (for me at least) actually a bonus!

I've pretty much made my position on everything else clear in my previous post. :cool:

Chuck
05-12-2003, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by ackees
In other words you buy the software because it fits a lifestyle choice, not necessarily because it’s the best package.

That seems like a counterproductive way to operate when you are selecting a tool with which to accomplish complex production tasks. What about the new books makes you think that 3D software is being marketed as a lifestyle choice, like your choice of sedan/sportscar/compact/SUV/ minivan, rather than as a tool to accomplish work? Am I making a comparison that gets to what you are driving at (excuse the pun ;))?

private
05-12-2003, 11:35 PM
Originally posted by Chuck
1,140 pages on thin paper, and the value is there for both beginners and the experienced. If you want to make a case, sticking to facts and avoiding cheap (and untruthful) shots might be useful. There are a number of new LightWave books forthcoming. "The battle of the bookstore shelves" certainly is something to consider, as is the availability of training in other media and in schools. We're very mindful of that and making the best use of our resources to address such things. Concrete suggestions are certainly welcome.

Here's somes suggestions Chuck:

1. Online help, with an index. If I have a problem, I go to the help tab, type in the index, and read.

2. You have Proton under contract, jetting to all corners of the Earth promoting Lightwave. How about giving him the afternoon off, let him play with Lightwave modeling one if his characters, record the thing and include it in the help files or another disk, or make it available online. This would help the users a lot. I read somewhere Proton likes to crank out characters in one sitting, less than four hours. I'm sure you could get him to play with Lightwave on the clock and record it for the masses.

What do you think?

j3st3r
05-12-2003, 11:55 PM
Think this: LW`s best advertisment will be DOOM3.

LW is lifestyle, it`s a bad attitude. Car driving is a lifestyle.

But purchasing a sw for hobby, and purchasing a sw for profession is another thing.

Maya offers lot of solutions, and lot off possibilities for solutions.

LW must change, and the fanatic users have to understand the need of changes.

Hope, on Siggraph NT will blast will the [8]

sailor
05-13-2003, 12:09 AM
u hit the nail jester...

Hervé
05-13-2003, 01:58 AM
you turned the screw....

colkai
05-13-2003, 02:25 AM
Originally posted by j3st3r
Think this:
LW is lifestyle, it`s a bad attitude.

Hello? LW is a bad attitude? Ok, so like, leave already!


But purchasing a sw for hobby, and purchasing a sw for profession is another thing.
Maya offers lot of solutions, and lot off possibilities for solutions.

So leave already! :rolleyes:


LW must change, and the fanatic users have to understand the need of changes.

You seen LW7.5? Compare that to LW5.6 or LW4 - talk to me about changes. Compare every release with the previous one, heck, LW7.5 isn't even on the same planet as LW 4.0

How many times do you people have to hear this? You don't like it? DON'T USE IT!!! Every release you get people going over the same old ground of how LW is poor, MAYA is great, put what *I* want in or else!

One last time - If ...Maya ...is ...so ...god...damn ...great - buy it already! :mad:

Good grief Chuck! you must feel like your swimming in mollasses! :confused:

ackees
05-13-2003, 02:28 AM
Of course under the bonnet the car has an engine, lifestyle is the expression of that complex production task. You see, the complexity of the expression has just jumped up a gear.

colkai
05-13-2003, 07:45 AM
Originally posted by ackees
Of course under the bonnet the car has an engine, lifestyle is the expression of that complex production task. You see, the complexity of the expression has just jumped up a gear.

I must be getting old because that statement just flew right over my head! :eek:

Vision1
05-13-2003, 07:59 AM
i know lightwave when it was first releasd on the amiga
and i saw it was used in some films

i think they mus try to get ligtwave back again in the movies

so one strength is that this product (lightwave3d) is cheap

so keep it that way

but we need some Unique features to move on

hey and we must post more quality pictures and animations to other forums so they can see what it can do and write more tutorials

because i can't find a good tutorial for hypervoxel clouds

hey and make your own website about lightwave

and newtek don't try to make to many anouncement because the othes are watching you

Rei
05-13-2003, 02:09 PM
NT needed The Matrix to be done in LW. Some huge movie needs LW, or a really good TV show, what happened to the good old days with Babylon 5? If every person on these boards gave $10 that would be a fair ammount to make a short film with LW, that showed off just how amazing it really is.

I've said this before:
LW is your program of choice, learn to use it As Fast as you can as Best as you can and as Well as you can.

Chuck you are a great guy to put up with some of this LW bashing!

cresshead
05-13-2003, 02:30 PM
Hmm...well to be TOTALLY honest nearly all 3d artists would have to admit that lightwave still has huge respect in the film industry..
i don't see 3dsmax making and real leaps into film...driven?..where max was last seen,...should have been re titled "drivel"...

meanwhile lightwave had jimmy neutron....right out of the box film!

maya...well the main features use maya but with extensive "extras" nailed onto it like renderman and sony's lighting application not to mention all those custom R&D mel scripts written inhouse...not exactly maya anymore is it really?
more like the maya framework with $50,000 of extras and r & d staff.

softimage?...well panic room was nice

lightwave..quirky but very capable strainght out of the box..add in motion builder and ACS4 and you have a softimage/maya killer app for character animation for the price of lightwave and this month's digit mag [£6]

noting to see here..move along...move along...

don't panic....get busy with lightwave.

steve g

j3st3r
05-13-2003, 02:52 PM
Take it easy, pal.

I said, that Maya currently offers lot more possibilities than LW. LW is a package, that one person can learn from inside to out, while maya is designed for teams of artist with different experiences.

cresshead, you mentioned all maya features as problem...but you`re wrong. I`m pretty sure, that maya`s real strength is its open architecture, that you can rewrite any part of it. That way, think Maya as an environment. And that environment is nicely customizable (even in its operations).

Jimmy Neutron was animated with Project:Messiah, so it`s not really out of the box film...

MAX...it`s interesting, that max was extensively used in lost in space, for example. Even in Starship troopers...there is a list sw where all project is mentioned (marking the shots) where max was used. My friend was working on The Ring, and on XMEN2 hologram sequence, and it was done with max as well

So all in all, LW for todays standard is a little bit outdated. It must change, at least unlimited undo and much better OPENGL options should be included.

I love LW. If i go to work for a company, I used to convince them, than I can beat their fastest Maya, Max modeler with LW, and usually I succeeds. So don`t think I`m against LW. I`m with LW, but it should change to the curretn expectations.

I DO hope, that LW will change.

And I think my opinion is realistic

cresshead
05-13-2003, 04:50 PM
lightwave's best assets are:
1. the free multi node renderer that is as good as metal ray/renderman in quality of output in comparison to natrive maya/max scanline.
2.the modeller in lightwave..simply stunning


things to be done?....undo's in layout..or intergration of modeller and layout
some fantastic character tools such as bones/rigs and a nod to character studio [max] type tools would be nice to see.

mind you, we can already fill the character tools with motion builder/acs4...for a very small outlay

things that maya does that i like..and tempt me...?
1.artisan
2.paint fx
3.mental ray node
4.flash capable renderer for free
5.the PLE learning edition to try all of these out for free
6.nurbs
7.history of modelling/animating

steve g

cavalos
05-13-2003, 05:53 PM
What can I say...
For me image is everything so rendering quality will be in fist place always, but that´s only me and a few more pals like Marko Davrovic and the buch and we know it.
All of the above will be so nice, but at the end the move should be a new kind of point of view in the development of a 3D app that takes away all the bad habits, you know something like a new and super flexible concept from very the beggining...Rewrite the complete in the background could be an alternative from LW9 or 10, who knows?

Best
Christian

Aegis
05-13-2003, 07:43 PM
j3st3r: Word was that very little of Lost In Space used Max - the main studio working on the picture using Max was Magic Camera Company who had only recently switched (previously using LightWave on PC, Alpha and Amigas) - Apparently Discreet (probably AutoDesk then actually) loaned them a coupla programmers to help write plugins to assist in the production - the whole job struggled through unfamiliarity with the software, near-fatal bugs in Max and the sheer volume of shots that had to be produced - many shots were redone using LightWave instead and pretty much every digital effects studio in Soho was called to take up the slack. Magic Camera Company were bought out by The Mill shortly after completing LIS and I believe some of their LightWave people set up Fuzzy Goat after the Mill got rid of its remaining LightWave seats.

My role is all this? Several nice SFX shots in the middle of the movie done in LightWave 5.0 using a PC, my trusty Amiga 4000 and a copy of Vista Pro 3.0 (anyone remember that?) - Those were the days...

sailor
05-14-2003, 12:26 AM
Cresshead:

a modeler can not be called "stunning" while u dont have the possibility of modeling in the camera view...i dunno if u are a hobbyst or a professional but this is simply vital in lot of situations...neither when u dont have History wich is a great time saver...the only thing i really miss from LW is the phantom subpatch selection ...and that is all i'm afraid...all the other tools are in the Maya toolset (knife,bandsaw etc...) and even more,of course u have edges (remind u that LW modeler is the ONLY main 3d package that still dont have) and NURBS for those who use them (i do use them in certain situations)...also Maya 5 u have a smooth UV function that works pretty nice so no more UV distortions when usin smooth or subdivs...look at the Maya 5 toolset and u will see a long list of LW feature request since i can remember...Simple to understand i guess?

Hervé
05-14-2003, 01:21 AM
hello Sailor,

I cannot think of an example where you need camera view modeling, can you be more clear with an example??

thanks

Hervé
05-14-2003, 01:23 AM
btw, I am just a hobbyst, so I never meet problems like that, and this is why I dunno....

colkai
05-14-2003, 02:02 AM
Originally posted by Aegis

My role is all this? Several nice SFX shots in the middle of the movie done in LightWave 5.0 using a PC, my trusty Amiga 4000 and a copy of Vista Pro 3.0 (anyone remember that?) - Those were the days...

VistaPro3? not only do I remember it, it is still lying around somewhere. In fact, I've got Vistapro 4.0 installed on my PC at home, which does a nicer job of outtputting terrain for LW use. I even wrote my first javascript program to convert the motion path to LW. Ahhh, make ya feel good dunnit? :)

Sailor, Modelling in the camera view is essential? So what, like you construct a scene without actually finishing or texturing the model? So how do you decide the best camera angle and lighting if you don't even have a final shape and surface attributes to work with.
No, the model must be complete before starting to build you scene. All that happens otherwise is you bounce from pillar to post, instead of focussing on the task at hand.

The key to any project is planning, you should know what your model AND your scene should look like at the start, unless you're just "doodling".

If that's all you MISS from LW and your happy with MAYA, why the heck are you spending so much time here bashing LW / Newtek

You appear to use Maya - so why are you frequenting the LW groups and spreading bad blood? :rolleyes:
That's rather like buying a Ford then complaining on the BMW forums about what *they* don't have, even though you don't drive one - Sheesh!

Hervé
05-14-2003, 03:21 AM
that's what i thought, why one would model in camera view.... i really dont see the need for that (at least my pov)

Red_Oddity
05-14-2003, 03:37 AM
Actually, it's really important, just try to image model something (we do a lot of post using LW because we mix Mac and PC here (and Maya is downright crap on the Mac and misses alot of the features of it's PC counterpart))
I have had to track too much shots and try to model objects that had to fit exaactly in the matteplates...i had to do this like this:

Tweak a couple of points...
Save...
F12
'hmmm...nope...'
F12
Tweak some more point...
Save
F12
'not quite...'
F12
Tweak even more points...heck...let's grab these aswell as i'm getting impatient...
Save
F12
'bollocks....all f-ed up now'
F12
Tweakerthetweak...tweak...tweak...
Save
F12
'RRRRRRaaaarrrrr....and i've 12 more shots like this' *pulls out hair*
F12
etc..etc..

sailor
05-14-2003, 03:44 AM
OK guys just forget...u are right i'm just spreadin bad blood....havin a camera in the modeler or just merge modeler and Layout is plain stoopid...i should plan ahead u are right...Colkai u opened my eyes...i will right now tell the other 70 fellas in the studio that they are just stoopid about that silly idea of pointin Leicas in a set and givin the focal lens and camera position to match a live action prop...for sure it never happens...the trackin guys should make their job properly...but no prob after all the other fellas at the flame will correct all this not matchin accurately geometry afterwards...
u are spectin from me to say that LW is perfect? weird idea ...i'm just pointin the problems that we everyday encounter with it....if u want i can piont also the good points BTW this i what i also do everyday. (sayin how easy and amazin the LW rendering is blah blah)...i just thought that givin my opinion was normal...but it is not...so i will shut up and let u all sleep....

PS i'm a LW and Maya user and i dont see any kind of conflict wit that

sailor
05-14-2003, 04:05 AM
in the mean time Red Oddity explained it as well....thanks to u :)

and just a side note...i post all this because i would love to see a nice modeler and Layout integration...just this will be a signal for lot of LW veterans to keep waitin (notice that this integartion isnt only for modeling but for bones and lots of stuff like that)...if it deonst happens with 8 that means to much time lost again and XSI/Maya and i'm afraid that at least for me it will be the end of the LW adventure...i never used to post in this forums "against"LW before the lux/Nt and the announcement of 8 (for those who remember me from the old board i was rather a LW optimist)but the time has come for a change...all my old LW collegues has moved to Maya ...we are just 2 still workin with LW from time to time...the market is not really good for anyone here...even worse for a LWaver...

colkai
05-14-2003, 07:07 AM
Sailor
You got over 70 people working in your studio, WOW I guess you're in better straits than most effects companies?

You must understand, from your many posts, and the style of them, you do not come across as a seasoned professional.
I guess I'm used to seeing that sort of 'u must be stoopid - wuz u thinking rite' as being from warez / young kids.
If english is not your native language, then I apologize for the mistake, one tends to grow wary and weary over time.

I just think that if you've already made the move and are happy with the perfection that is Maya, why waste time here?

Red_Oddity - okay, yeah, for live action mattes, I guess you could see the need, just that everything I've read so far seemed to handle the blocker object in modeller with a backdrop. Though to be honest, I wonder if some form of deformer would be more useful, that way, if the object 'distorts' in the shot, you could key-frame the point data to follow it. But then, I don't do blue-screen / plate matching work, so I am just guessing.

Anyhoo, my last post on this.

mattclary
05-14-2003, 08:00 AM
That's my take on Sailor also. The language use definitely seems like a warez kiddie.

pixelmonk
05-14-2003, 08:38 AM
t|-|3 d00d iz l337!!!!!!!

sailor
05-14-2003, 08:54 AM
Well yes english is not my mother language but french ....but i am a professional ...and yes there are 70 guys at the studio...what else can i say...i dont really see ur point...the fact that u dont even know what a Leica is point more the fact that u are not a professional rather than the opposite ok we wont debate for days and days here...anyways what ur feelings are about the way i talk are maybe due to the fact english isnt my mother language...period...the rest is still relevant and i'm just pointin the fact that MAYBE u havent worked in a large pipeline configuration so MAYBE u dont know what some kind of constraints could be ...and well if sayin that im a warez type of guy...well i dunno why u say that...is just a personal statement totally based in ur imagination...

Doug Nicola
05-14-2003, 09:35 AM
The very first thing on the list for LW 8? Chuck said it way back on the post that started it all...

" Development for this release of LightWave® will focus on workflow and user interface improvements. "

Something tells me NT has caught on to what's really important right now, which is just the kind of thing Sailor and Red_Oddity are talking about.

I think NT probably also appreciates dedicated wavers (especially ones who might also be using maya) saying what they would really like to see in LW. Actually, this is exactly what we did at a company I used to program for. We would go out to users of "the competition" who were also familiar with our soft, and we grilled them for hours about what they liked/hated about both softs, especially with workflow.

So maybe this "bashing" is just plain healthy for NewTek. Seeing how much LW has evolved over the years, I think they can handle it.:)

hrgiger
05-14-2003, 09:39 AM
What studio do you work for Sailor?

Chuck
05-14-2003, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by sailor
Cresshead:

a modeler can not be called "stunning" while u dont have the possibility of modeling in the camera view...i dunno if u are a hobbyst or a professional but this is simply vital in lot of situations...neither when u dont have History wich is a great time saver...the only thing i really miss from LW is the phantom subpatch selection ...and that is all i'm afraid...all the other tools are in the Maya toolset (knife,bandsaw etc...) and even more,of course u have edges (remind u that LW modeler is the ONLY main 3d package that still dont have) and NURBS for those who use them (i do use them in certain situations)...also Maya 5 u have a smooth UV function that works pretty nice so no more UV distortions when usin smooth or subdivs...look at the Maya 5 toolset and u will see a long list of LW feature request since i can remember...Simple to understand i guess?

Considering that Modeler still gets used in preference to other packages that sport all those items you say are necessary to be able to call a Modeler stunning, then perhaps those things really are not needed in order to consider a Modeler stunning and to make it a tool of choice. :)

That said, certainly we're looking forward to making Modeler yet more powerful and useful, while maintaining a fast workflow and powerful control of the result. By all means, do submit your feature requests, and we'll see how we can help get you the solutions you want as we progress in development.

colkai
05-14-2003, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by sailor
.the fact that u dont even know what a Leica is point more the fact that u are not a professional rather than the opposite ok

Sorry, had to respond to this . at no point did I say I didn't know what a Leica is.
Leica are reknowned for the cameras & optics,such as the big twin lens reflex cameras yes?

No, I am not a professional, most of the folks here are well aware of that. :p But I ain't ever let that stop me!

sailor
05-14-2003, 01:14 PM
Colkai peace :)

but at least recognize that u first fired that "pro" Vs "warez kiddie" thing...actually what we call a Leica is an optical measurement insrtrument that not even me but some other trackin guys used to pinpoint some set elements later to be recreated in 3d...so i only have seen the result of the Leica measurement....the result is a Maya scene with a camera with a specific focal lens and some point placed in the 3d scene....from there and with some background pics u have to recreate the object or part of the object
anyway there is nothin bad about bein a hobbyst...actually most of the precious scripts i use are done by hobbyst and thanks to them cause i dont understand a single bit of codin and programming :) it is not my job anyways..not mentioning that when i'm not workin i become agian a hobbyst

sailor
05-14-2003, 01:16 PM
Sorry i forgot again to say somethin...well i dunno if i even can talk about the studio the only thing i can say is that is a full 3d feature film soon to be released...why so many freelancers...modelers ,texture artists ,rendering, shading, animation, compo, tracking,sfx etc...if u add all those position u have 70 + in there :)

mattclary
05-14-2003, 01:20 PM
You mean a survey instrument? I forgot Leica made those too. Used to work as a CAD tech for a surveyor. Makes sense once you think about it.


http://www.leica-geosystems.com/surveying/product/totalstations/tps100.htm

sailor
05-14-2003, 01:25 PM
to be honest with ya Matt (i will sound silly now :p) i havent seeen the instrument myself i only saw the result as i said...i wasnt on the live action set so have no idea...but that is not the point actually i was just talkin about the no cam modeling limitation that exist not only in this case...

Chuck i appreciate that u take in consideration the feeling of some people workin with differnet softs...Modeler is a very intutive and great tool...and surely lots of people dont need to be able to model in the cam view but hey i had that main prob that made me switch to maya...and i'm not the only one...so i thought u wanted to know?

Doug Nicola,

i really appreciate ur positive way of seein things and it is so unusual to see that i wanted to thank you :) u totally understood my point and think that NT wan improve his products that is the reason competition is healthy

hrgiger
05-14-2003, 01:42 PM
Sailor, you can probably mention the name of the studio you work for. Even Luxology has announced their name to us, just not their purpose of being.

cresshead
05-14-2003, 01:53 PM
origonally posted by sailor:

Cresshead: [from my previous post]

a modeler can not be called "stunning" while u dont have the possibility of modeling in the camera view...i dunno if u are a hobbyst or a professional but this is simply vital in lot of situations...neither ...from sailor..


well yup, i am indeed proffessional..i use 3ds max & character studio, lightwave, combustion plus lightscape to a very small degress so far.

a camera in modeller would be a nice addition but for me not a application killer....modeler IS still stunning...just look at what you can make with it and the toolset is very proffessional.

i would agree that for camera matching your going to have a hard time with lightwave...but really you should be using a dedicated app like boujou [spelling?] or something similar...personally max has a camera matching script and a plugin for this so max scores quite well on this niche subject...but [and it's a big BUTT] i'm really lothing max currently in comparison to lightwave for maodeling and rendering in comparison to lightwave..all that keeps me in max is character studio and a few plugins and ways of working...plus I teach with 3dsmax at an edu establishment.

maya is quite nice but some of the gigantic hoops you have to jump thru are equally poor or indeed greater to lightwaves lack of a camera in modeller.

nothings perfect 3d appwise...

my ideal app?

lightwave modeller
lightwave renderer
acs4 style rigger
character studio footstep driven animation and assocsiated bip files and fig files plus motion capture data thinning etc
maya's paint fx for trees etc
maya's hardware renderer and flash output
maya's nurbs
option to use mental ray [would be cool i think!]
some of the great scripts for max...

steve g

sailor
05-14-2003, 02:02 PM
well yes with somethin like boujou or 3dequalizer u can make trackin but again i'm not talkin about cam trackin but about modelin wich means point editin in the cam, surface creation etc...
for the rest i agree with ya more or less...i have no experience with max i only know LW, Maya and some Rhino...
lot of the tools in Maya are almost "experimental" in teh way theydont work fully as expected...but this is mainly for very innovative stuff like hierarchcal subdivisions or conversion from poly to Nurbs ...hierachical subdiv will be killer in LW modelr for instance...once this modeling paradigm will be stable and used in production it will be just amazing...its maybe already good enough yet but havent tried it lately...

Doug Nicola
05-14-2003, 02:15 PM
For what I've done so far with modeler, which is character design, I've simply been astounded at how easy it is to use. The right look just flows out of my mouse! And also for my animation work so far, LW just feels so right! Lots of thanks to Timothy Albee's book for that, too. (re, the book wars...;) )

The thing is, when a user hits the wall with LW, that's just it, sometimes. You just can't go past. I'm sure NewTek is more concerned with these kinds of issues probably than anything else.

Actually, I should correct my last post. It shouldn't be: "we grilled them for hours..." It should be they grilled us for hours and we took lots and lots of notes!:)

BTW, "stopping" issues are what users usually complain about with production and design software. These are frequently things like "if only I could connect doodad A with whatzit C, then I could do amazing X, Y and Z." This is not really a new feature they're asking for, it's more like hooking up what's already there so they can use it like they need to. And it falls under the category of workflow/usability.

Oh yeah, thanks sailor! LW gives me such a positive warm glow these days that it feels like anything is possible (at least with new versions...hehe), so why worry! :)

Hey, maybe there's a marketing angle in there: "ANYTHING is POSSIBLE" hehe! OK, now I'm getting giddy and will shut up.:rolleyes:

Chuck
05-14-2003, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by sailor
...pointing Leicas in a set and giving the focal lens and camera position to match a live action prop...

This task is certainly becoming more common all the time. Besides the need for a camera POV in Modeler, would you say there are needs in LightWave's camera characteristics, setup and control functions for this kind of match operation?

I'm not sure there is a discussion on this in the Feature Request section. You might want to launch one there. There is a thread trying to determine a top ten list of request items for Modeler:

http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3767

some of which you've mentioned.

Chuck
05-14-2003, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by sailor
Chuck i appreciate that u take in consideration the feeling of some people workin with differnet softs...Modeler is a very intutive and great tool...and surely lots of people dont need to be able to model in the cam view but hey i had that main prob that made me switch to maya...and i'm not the only one...so i thought u wanted to know?

Of course we do - that's why we have a feature request forum, a feature request email address - [email protected] , host our own forums, and visit other forums, newsgroups, and mailing lists that LightWave users inhabit. While I pointed out to you that Modeler was possibly worth considering stunning even without the features you mentioned, I also said -


certainly we're looking forward to making Modeler yet more powerful and useful, while maintaining a fast workflow and powerful control of the result. By all means, do submit your feature requests, and we'll see how we can help get you the solutions you want as we progress in development.

- so I'm very puzzled that you seem to think I was saying we did not want to know what you and other users want or need in the product for the future. Rest assured, we very much want to know, and will give all requests every consideration as we plan our development of LightWave.

Vision1
05-14-2003, 03:54 PM
hey i hope they don't join the layout and modeler because
personaly I like the way its setup having two separate programs,,,,,,the layout for animation and and so on, and the other is modeling in which u design or model in that section and the fact that it also illuminates the confusion,

i think when you join the two programs (layout,modeler) it would not so easy anymore to use because there are to many options in one screen

or they must make a option so you can choose if you want them separated or not

cresshead
05-14-2003, 04:05 PM
hi chuck, good to see you here on this thread.

I'm quite excited at the prospect of lightwave 8 comming this year.
I think some movment of the camera settings to the render panel would be good and logical and i'm hoping for a more modular approach to lightwave where we either have everything fully "connected" from modeler to layout or indeed merge the two together...one thing i'm hoping though is that ligtwave retains it's identity and doesn't become a maya/max clone...newtek have always carved a very individual approach to it's apps and i hope this continues in lightwave 8's design..i'd hate to see it as a cinema4d look alike..trying to be a maya or max..and failing on all points.

i'm still surprised to see that no other company except unreal pictures [developer of character studio] has implemented a footstep driven character anmation tool for any other 3 app.

it's a great time saver for fleshing out an animation in mins rather than hours of course it's not meant to be the final result but is a great tool and very fast...i'm hoping for somthing like the rigger acs4 with a footstep driven animation tool for lightwave..it would finally nail the lid down on my 3dsmax.

cheers and good luck on the long hours the newtek team put into developing the nextversion og lightwave.

steve g:cool:

petermark
05-15-2003, 12:13 AM
Very cool that Newtek has released some sort of concrete date on version 8 (though it may be a month or two after Siggraph before it's actually released).

I am still using 6.5b, I just kept thinking that I might as well wait till 8 before upgrading. Now it looks like the time to buy seeing as I'll get an automatic update to 8!

It's been quite some time since 7, so I'm hoping that this is a pretty major upgrade. I am with the group that want Modeler and Layout integrated. I think that a switchable interface would keep the UI clean while allowing for image-based modeling and generally quicker scene creation.

Thanks for the hard work, Newtek!

hrgiger
05-15-2003, 12:50 AM
Well, more like 3 or 4 months after Siggraph. It is supposed to be released 4th quarter.

And if you buy now, you'll get a free upgrade to 8 but only through a download. You'll have to pay another $99 to get a hardcopy manual and CD.

VWTornado
05-27-2003, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by Doug Nicola
Thanks Dave,

But honestly my first few hours with Maya almost made my brain melt, such was the difference in style from LW.:D

I agree...I got a chance to play around with Maya 4.5 Unlimited for a day and OMG was it confusing. I did the tutorial on dynamics...with a ball bouncing and water coming off it...and did that fine. But then I just tried playing with stuff myself with simple modeling and texturing and couldn't even make simple crap beyond cubes and spheres. And texturing was a friggin nightmare in Maya. :rolleyes: I guess I just "get" Lightwave's way of doing things a lot more. Go Newtek! :D

And for Chuck: I'd say things that would be best for LW8 would be a 3D paint tool and something like Sasquatch built-in to Lightwave...not a $500 plugin. basically ever character someone makes needs fur or hair on it, so it should be a standard texture" inside the app. Some plugins just make sense to be standard issue parts of a program...especially fur/hair and 3D paint tools, i mean it IS a 3D program...why should we have to bend and tweak a 2D Photoshop/Aura image to fit on our 3D model? :)

PeteS
06-08-2003, 09:23 PM
Can we expect the MAC version t be sable, unlike the recent update? This isn't a bash, I love 7.5. I didn't upgrade due to the poor mac version. I know MAC is a minority for you guys, but I see MAYA advertising so strongly to the MAC community. i hope Newtek is thinks of us just as much:confused:

j3st3r
06-09-2003, 12:57 AM
Doh. Playing one hour with Maya is NOTHING. Now I`m working with maya and Lightwave at my work. So I have a much better view on maya than before, and I can say, it`s a kick *** app...but not in modelling. LW is far superior in modeling with it`s history-free model centric approach.

I don`t what you have been tested with it`s dynamics, but I experienced much easier (and FASTER) work in animation with Maya than LW. And my favourite is the viewport managment. It has plenty of OPENGL shading options (including wireframe on shaded, and wireframe on textured). It`s a really customizable (including wire colors, etc.) The UV tools are much more sophisticated (i don`t need to unweld a modell to work properly on it`s UV, I have real SEW), I can view the whole model from one viewpoint as if I`m standing in the model, not only orbit around this point. And moreover I found out the the shelf system works really fast ( if you learn the icons :rolleyes: ). What I like in Maya user interface, that my hands can relax during work...I can do everything with using ONLY the mouse and the alt, ctrl keys...and believe or not it is FAST...

Summa summarum, LW is my best tool for modelling, but for scene management Maya is the best. And much more comfortable.

I think Newtek has something to learn from alias wavefront. In AW has to learn from newtek as well. I hope, Newtek doesn`t want only to keep LW`s current fanatic usergroups, but the gain new users. For this, NT has to improve the user interface, the opengl management, and moreover LAYOUT...

ackees
06-09-2003, 05:09 AM
I agree with you j3st3r, the user interface in LW is muting LW’s power. Take a simple task in motion mixer, the interface of motionmixer has no scrolling bars, and it doesn’t follow the timeline when playing (update view) so you have to alt-drag mouse to scrolled it – crazy.

c i k l o n
06-10-2003, 04:13 AM
I agree with you j3st3r !!!
Please NewTek you must do something !!!
Dont listen religious user !!!
Please dont complicate things -- make things easy ( click and drop ) make more things like Fast IK Loader or ACS4 .
Carefuly looks how works other software, especiality MaYa !
Best regard !
:)

Lamont
06-11-2003, 07:33 AM
Ahhh, sit back and wait till Siggraph people...

I am sure we will be surprised.

j3st3r
06-11-2003, 11:04 AM
Lamont, do you know something? Or just hope, like us?

Lamont
06-11-2003, 11:05 AM
I know nothing, just wonder what's gonna come up.