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papou
05-19-2005, 07:34 PM
I began lightwave about ~7 years ago.
I like it from the begining but it was crashing a lot. And i remember a lot of user's post about a crashes. So i was thinking that lightwave was a delicate app.

i recently discover that my lightwave is probably not working as it must do.
Some friends are thinking that my lightwave is unstable compared to what they seen outside.

Can't understand, it's a clean strong workstation, with a clean install, etc, etc...

So i wan't to know where is my problem.

Not enough Ram? (have only 1Go)
Fragmented Ram?
My Ram is too cheap?
Nvidia driver? (the Old Newtek certifiate driver? or a newer one?)
Shared config file? (i'm working with network shared config file, all my cfg files are on a distant station...)

I can't resolve myself because i know lightwave is crashing a lot from the begining...

Captain Obvious
05-19-2005, 08:21 PM
Depends, really. I can't honestly claim that I have problems with Lightwave crashing. I save more often than it crashes. ;) Besides, I'm still running a developer preview of Tiger, so I don't know if my statistics even count.

Librarian
05-19-2005, 08:30 PM
It depends. Modeler works ok most of the time.
Layout crashes far too often.

Ozzie
05-20-2005, 01:01 AM
From Lightwave 4 to 6.5 crashes were every 5 minutes. Now with 8 crashes are very rare for me.

I don't use any other 3rd party plug-ins except what came in the box, and I never use the Hub.

CHEERS.

Mark

Lamont
05-20-2005, 01:16 AM
Layout crashes for me. But it's like when I do something stupid... or use a plugin that's not fully developed.

Right now I am using C4 and the object that it calculates the blast from is animated. It crashes a lot, and I know why. But I keep pushing it to see what I can get away with.

Dodgy
05-20-2005, 03:28 AM
Yeah I voted for 1 or 2 crashes a day, but those are usually from plugins and not the base application. Most or the time it's a lot less, but certain operations will give me crashes a lot of the time.

I have a lot of plugins installed too, I mean a lot :)

starbase1
05-20-2005, 03:44 AM
I suspect it might be useful to poll a level between the two lowest options, like once or twice a month... Alo be interesting to compare Mac with PC, but that makes for a huge poll with all those options!!

Anyway, personally on 7.5, and it tends to be modeller that crashes more than layout. More often than not when I am passing models over, or synching. Also gets wobbly if you try and import some 'borderline' models, it seems to get VERY confused over bad polygons when you select toi clean them up.

I've also noticed frequent wierd behaviour when I run more than one copy of layout - sometimes I have a long render running at a lower priority, and I want to work on setting up the next scene. Very often all the fields in a panel go to zero or blank losing all the old settings, but receiver the rest as soon as I enter one correctly... Very odd...

Nick

MooseDog
05-20-2005, 04:29 AM
i had to deal with a stupidly unstable 8.0 at one point (like 10 or more a day), but after rolling back my nvidia drivers a couple of iterations, lw has been rok solid, before and since. like any app it will crash if i push it hard.

Limbus
05-20-2005, 05:49 AM
I really cant remember the last time modeler crashed. Layout used to crash way too often before 8.3. Havent done much testing or heavy working but a scene that used to crash almost every time I loaded a new scene or used "clear scene" now does not crash anymore. Opening the Spreadsheet is also a common cause for a crash.

Florian

Tesselator
05-20-2005, 06:00 AM
I voted: "not per day, maybe 1 or 2 per week..."

For me LW is very stable. Three things come to
mind:

A man walks into the Doctor's office and says
to the Doctor while bending his arm backwards:
"I think something is wrong Doc, it hurts when I
do this." The Doctor observes and gives the man
a perscription note that reads: "Avoid bending
your in unnatural positions. Especailly backwards!"

This means that if LW Crashes when you do XYZ;
then by all means don't do XYZ!


System environment. Drivers, Partially broken
ram, System services, background tasks, low RAM
conditions, corrupt disk files, improper grounding
of (Monitor, system box, external perifials, etc.),
Unstable or not recommended bios and system
settings (like overclocking ANYTHING!!!), etc., etc.
can all by themselves and in combination cause
troubles for just LW while other apps may be ok
and vise-versa.


Enlightenment, Documentation, & Patience. Read
up on all the new and old bugs you can and apply
the good doctor's advice in #1 above. Keep a text
file of them and what you've done to correct for
them - workarounds, system settings etc. if you
seem to crash more than your share. Be patient.
Wait for things to finish up. Niether Windows nor
LW is stable enopugh to "work ahead" of the focus;
few softwares are and especially running in the
Windoze environment. Move fast when you are
doing something that IS fast... If it's too slow for
you chances are you're stressing out the system.
Bounding box display, proxy objects, turning off
fulltime IK when you don't need it on, etc. etc. etc..
There are MANY ways to speed things up! Learning
to work within the limits of the application whatever
it is, will reduce system stress and the number of
crashes as a result.

These ideas should be common sense - but then so
should driving defensivly... and we all see the jokers
run right up to our bumper at 75 miles an hour,
downshift, and floor it around us. How you drive,
the care you give to your vehicle, and the precautions
to take into consideration before you even start up
make a huge difference in the number of crashes
you'll encounter.

:cool:

faulknermano
05-20-2005, 07:02 AM
worked on a project that made be average more than 10 crashes that day. of course, bear in mind that they were actually an 18-hour days. the project consisted of all native lightwave plugins, but the crashes had more to do with loading and reloading scenes.

other than that, depends on complexity of scene, really.

i find lw8 to be very stable.

also, i use many lscripts and prior to version 8, i used to crash more often - lscript-related.

riki
05-20-2005, 09:17 AM
I can't believe that people are saying once a week or twice a day. Lightwave crashes every 30 mins for me, without fail, and has done so for the past five or six years. I know that sounds rediculous but it's not an exaggeration. That's always been the reality of using Lightwave for me.

riki
05-20-2005, 09:28 AM
Modeler is fairly stable for me now. Lightwave seems to be the main problem. Typically Lightwave also crashes everytime I quit the application. I know a lot of people will say you need to do a clean install, replace your config files etc and yes that works for a short period. But usually within a day or two it's back to normal, crashing on quits. If I abort an F9 Render, and then do another F9, render LW will crash about 60-70% of the time. Even with a small scene, a low poly count no AA, no Radiosity, one or two lights, nothing very exciting, it still crashes consistantly. I've never had problems like this with any other application

illusory
05-20-2005, 10:35 AM
Funny to see this thread when I come to the site to reasearch WHY LIGHTWAVE IS CRASHING WHEN I USE MICROWAVE !!!

Microwave itself has always been very stable. I ran it for a week straight to do some radiosity maps a couple weeks ago, and it worked fantastic.

Now, all of a sudden, it can't get through one map successfully -- same version of LW (8.2) same size map, same object, just slightly different and LESS intensive settings.

This is ridiculous.

NJ

dgon64
05-20-2005, 11:51 AM
Modeler will crash sometimes when I try to switch views ( say from perspective to top view ). I suspect this may have more to do with my older dual display card ( ge Force 4800 series ) than with LW itself but since I save often it's not a big problem. LW 8.2 and 8.3 Layout ( 8.0 is o.k. ) crash consistently when used in conjunction with a WorldBuilder 4.1 plug-in but that's something that Digital Element must fix so other than that everything seems pretty stable.

papou
05-20-2005, 12:05 PM
"I can't believe that people are saying once a week or twice a day."
me too! I need to ask if peoples are using it everyday? or only 1 or 2 times per week?

Lightwave crashes every 30 mins for me, without fail, and has done so for the past five or six years. I know that sounds rediculous but it's not an exaggeration.
That's always been the reality of using Lightwave for me.
me too... that the reason of this post...

Riki, your config are in your local workstation or shared on external drive?
how many Ram do you get?
Your plugins are shared for network job or local?

People who are not crashing or near never, can you explain little bit your workstation spec?

I would like to know why there is so much difference from users.

Signal to Noise
05-20-2005, 12:24 PM
"I can't believe that people are saying once a week or twice a day."
me too! I need to ask if peoples are using it everyday? or only 1 or 2 times per week?


I use LW on average 3-5 hours per day about 5-6 days a week. I do get, on average, a crash maybe 2-3 times per week. And that is a bad week. I run LW both on a 1.6 GHz/1 GB RAM laptop and a 2.4GHz/1.5GB RAM desktop. Both systems run XP Pro with SP2.

The crashes really depend on what I'm doing and which machine I'm working on. The laptop will tend to crash more often than the desktop. Sometimes a crash will happen on one machine and if I try to duplicate the moments up to the crash on the other it's fine, i.e. no crash. So it could be a system memory problem. Other times it's mostly software specific problems which either can be confirmed by other users so I try to find a work-around. I've been using 8.3 since it's release (actually since beta) and so far I have had only one crash. The crash this time was not replicable so I'm not too worried. I started using LW at version 7. I've found that the frequency of crashes overall has reduced significantly through the course of LW updates/upgrades. However, whenever an o/s update comes around it could mean an extra crash or two.

Thus is the nature of the software/hardware industry. And introduce the freedom of user customized systems, SDKs, plug-ins, scripts, etc. and crashes are inevitable (sp.?).

Dodgy
05-20-2005, 12:30 PM
At work:

P4 2.6 Ghz + 1G ram. Gforce 4 WinXp latest service pack.

At home:

Athlon 2.6 + 1G ram. GforceFX 5600 Ultra Win 2K Sp4

I use LW every day for hours and hours, modeling high and low poly stuff. I run it from a portable harddrive, upon which the configs are stored. I've notice an increase in crashes recently, but I think this was due to the HD not getting enough power through the USB, as it would stall then crash. Here's a rough break down of crashes for me:

3rd party plugins: 70% (mostly when i'm testing my own plugins :) )
Dynamics:10% (though this is mostly slowing to almost a complete crawl on complex objects)
Switching between Apps: 2%
Startup and ShutDown:16%
Mirror tool in modeler 2%: Only time Modeler crashes for me is with this tool(and when switching between apps occasionally), and even then it's intermittent. It stopped doing it for a while, but lately it seems to be back...

I've gotten more startup and shut down crashes in 8.3 from 8.2, 8.2 was more stable in this area for me, and mostly in these cases it's the hub when I try to close that down. This doesn't affect me too much since I'll have already saved everything and just be going home.

I have tons of 3rd party plugins, and don't experience a crash every 30 mins as you seem to.

Ztreem
05-20-2005, 01:48 PM
My LW crashes 1-2 times a week when I use it every day. (I'm a LW hobbyist so I maybe don't always pushes LW to the limit, but sometimes I do). The most usual crash is when aborting a render. (Newtek knows about this bug and is working on it).

My system specs are:
Dual AMD Athlon MP 1900+
Asus Motherboard
Asus Graphic-card GeForce 4600Ti 128 Mb
1 Gb RAM

pixelinfected
05-20-2005, 03:19 PM
i think this is a crap thread.
stability of system and a software is very difficult to define.
anyway i use lw8.3 at office (since 8-9 hours) and 2-3 hours at home.
at work on a 3dboxx dual xeon 2.8 with gb of ram, xp pro
at home on notebook p4 2.6 with 512 mb of ram, xp pro

anyway also if i work on heavy project, i not see more then two, three crash at day, but i ever put lw on its limits.

anyway we use also maya (less than lw) and we think is more instable than lw when you put on half of its limits.

i use other software like zbrush, after effects, combustion, premiere and more, and all sometime crash, sometimes is normal, if your system is clean, stable, your software is stable.

if Lightwave were unstable as you say, no one big sfx studio could finish its project...
check your system guys.

papou
05-20-2005, 04:27 PM
not a crap thread for me.
Stability is, for sure, difficult to define.

When i mean "unstable", i don't speak about pushing lightwave to its limit.
I mean a randomly, unknow reason. Sometimes crash, sometimes not.

Im using lw everyday, and i know about computer, plugins using, coding, 3d and others soft too. I have no crash on my system with other soft.

I'm not saying Lightwave is buggy or more unstable than anything else.
I want know about your experience because maybe they are similar problems, like Riki said. He's a knowed user, who like to work with lightwave but have troubles with its stability. Probably we are doing something wrong. Or maybe it's a systems problem only.

50% for 1 or 2 crash a week.

me, today, 12 crashs.

i must found the problem.

thanks everybody!

dpartridge
05-20-2005, 05:29 PM
things i found help avoid f9 crashes on my mac

- turn all mipmaps off in the image editor and surface editor.
- turn of texture blending in the surface editor.
- use uncompressed images.
- after opening a scene, click on the preview window in the surface editor, so it renders a preview.

it seems i get lots of crashes when using large images in a scene, and these are the steps i take to minimize this.

bobakabob
05-20-2005, 07:42 PM
Modeler seems much more stable in 8.3 than 7.5. :)

riki
05-20-2005, 11:00 PM
In the past quite a lot of my problems can attributed to having a computer that wasn't powerful enough to handle lightwave lightwave properly. Plus previous builds of Lightwave were less stable on the mac, especially back in the OS9 days. But I still have problems today with the new G5.

There's no network, 1.5 G Ram (Apple Ram and has been tested).

I've found also that Lightwave will crash on Quiting if I click in the finder while it's shutting down.

My experience with Lightwave is getting better though. That's the main reason I stick with it. Modeler is solid, no problems and the new system does help.

pixelinfected
05-21-2005, 06:20 AM
sorry for my hard answer, but i'm tired to read and hear a lot of people that tell bad thing against a software when they have an instable system.
(i don't how is stable your system, and not comment that, i write that to avoid mistake with you for my previous phrase)

for my experience (lw3.5 amiga -> 5.0 pc amiga alpha->lw8.3 win mac you can check below the list of possible cause of instability of lw. i hope that help you.

- check video driver, if lw is stable in wireframe, you need check directx install and video driver, try to update or downgrade

- check ram (there is many free software to check it, if you don't know what software, tell me i can send you some address), this is a very important point, lw like few other software use large and in deep the memory, then if there is some little defect that is not important with other software, that use less memory, lw which use a floating point array of data require a good memory bank.

- try to delete and rebuild config file, some corrupted config could change the stability of all software

- check without external plugin, sometimes you can have old plugin that not work fine with new lw version, or file could be corrupted (ntfs is a exception file system, but better than fat32) , and crash lw.

- do not load legacy plugin folder, that is inteded only for compatibility with scene from 5.6 to bottom, on new lw version could change the stability

- check all software that work in background, specially firewall that could intercept and lock or delay communication between modeler and layout, sometimes that is a bad and crash cause. (eventually check modeler and layout launched without hub, which often is a solution to work faster on some situation where hub communication are a very big delay for refresh and more other thing).

- if you work under mac, a lot of crash are caused of permittion to access folder to save config file, or manipulation of file, you can use an utility called batchmode to change permittion to lw folder, or folder that you use to save all file that you need a different permition settings without using terminal of os X

- if you work with large image format, don't use strange and high compressed format, prefer to use tif, EXR, or less compressed format, anyway lw expand in pixel image, then after loading, same image in jpg and in tif use same memory in lw, but decompressing and using could cause problem.

- avoid to use movie like texture, is better and faster to render if you convert to image sequence, less memory consuming, less cpu consiming during rendering, faster render.

ok, now i must exit, but if i remember some other thing that could crash lw, i tell you.
start to check the list then tell me.
good luck.

papou
05-21-2005, 06:40 AM
... sorry for my hard answer, but i'm tired to read and hear a lot of ...
no prob, i know what you mean by tired. You just need to understand that i just realize that its my system unstable.

thank you, i aware of most of your suggestion but i'm going to check my ram with utility, defrag, etc..

if my plugins folder is networked on a distant PC, do you think lightwave can be less stable? probably slower to open panel, but less stable?

Nvidia users, what driver are you using? new one? or old Newtek certifiate 28.xx?
Do you check something for Lightwave in your Nvidia settings?

Psycho Zo
05-21-2005, 08:35 AM
I'm actually feeling more relieved after reading this thread. I use Lightwave all day for weeks and weeks at a time, I've forgotten what the outside world looks like with my current project, and it crashes once or twice a day. Now I also work with After Effects, Flash, Final Cut and Photoshop to the same amount of an intensive degree, and those applications have NEVER crashed on me, ok I lie.. I once made Flash crash by loading a quicktime movie into it that was a huge resolution, random crashes however never. I thought something was wrong coz Lightwave was crashing so often (specifically when I have modeler and layout open and I try and update models in a scene), now I realise that it is a more common occurance and so I can rest easier. Thanks for helping me see the light! :)

Ztreem
05-21-2005, 09:49 AM
Nvidia users, what driver are you using? new one? or old Newtek certifiate 28.xx?

I use the newest one, I always try to have the newest drivers for all my hardware.


Now I also work with After Effects, Flash, Final Cut and Photoshop to the same amount of an intensive degree, and those applications have NEVER crashed on me, ok I lie..

I don't think you can compare 2D graphics apps with 3D apps... almost every 2D app I use (photoshop, illustrator, painter, coreldraw, flash, dreamweaver to name a few) is stable and every 3D app I use (LW, Rhino, Studiotools) isn't that stable. I think a 3D app is more advanced than for example Flash so it's natural it crashes more often than a program like that. I must say that LW is more stable than Rhino and Studiotools.

BTW the only 3D app I've used that seems to be very stable is solidworks.

Dodgy
05-21-2005, 11:35 AM
I'm using 6.1.7.7 whatever that means....

pixelinfected
05-21-2005, 12:39 PM
i'm used to have my lw folder on network disk, which is same used for screamernet render for our renderfarm, that use my config, that allow me to be sure that all plugin used in production are correctly loaded in renderfarm, you can note a bit of delay on opening of panel but no more.

verify the ram, in past i had a lot of problem with ram, after change it, all work fine.

Psycho Zo
05-21-2005, 01:00 PM
Ztreem: I completely agree.

papou
05-21-2005, 03:39 PM
...i'm used to have my lw folder on network disk, which is same used for screamernet render for our renderfarm....

like me, ... too bad, I was hoping the problem was hiding in this....

wacom
05-21-2005, 05:42 PM
It's funny, because until I installed 8.3 I hardly ever had any crashes outside of using a few free plugs (and rounder). Modeler used to almost NEVER crash for me, and Layout only did it about...maybe once a day. Now though 8.3 has turned my beloved LW into an unstable mess- about as unstable as the version of Illustrator CS I use and that's not a good thing!

Maybe I just need to do a fresh install?

Oh and the Fprime light slowdown is soooo bothersome!

jorbedo
06-02-2005, 12:22 AM
Mine is perfect, since that I took the CD's and dongle back to the box, there is the only place where you can have LW working perfectly, gathering dust!

It's incredible that everytime that they have an upgrade to resolve some bugs, you have to deal with a few additional (100's) bugs.

If you want to know about stability, look with other vendors.

Delete all your code NewTek start writing from scratch, LW looks like a old quilt fabric.

NewTek, people is noticing! and your competitors too, MentalRay in 64 bit for linux, Cinema 4D already available, too much for 1 month.

JB

lardbros
06-04-2005, 10:59 AM
Yeah, now that's REALLY constructive citicism isn't it!!

Why bother posting when you are not using it, go and post that on the Cinema4D forum, we don't need to hear it. ALL software crashes, and everyone has to put up with it. I've never pushed other software like i do LW, and it copes just fine. Even with a measly 512RAM.

I had more crashes with 3dsMAX when i used it, than i do with lightwave. Lightwave NEVER quits out completely leaving you with no clue as to why. 3dMAX used to on a 3 hourly basis.

The worst crash i have had so far was when i forgot to save, and used the select edge loop in version 8.1 (i think) it decided to crash and i was annoyed, but i had a backup model file ready and waiting so no bother.

illusory
06-05-2005, 07:55 PM
Well I finally upgraded my motherboard....MSI K8T Master 2 dual 246 opterons, and a new OCZ Powerstream power supply, and guess what? The same files that were crashing for me -- i could not get them to render -- render just fine, no crashes.

In fact, I can now run 2 instances of Lightwave, and complete 2 microwave illumination bakes at one time. Very nice. This is a good rememedy, BTW, for those who have remarked that, since Microwave does not support multithreading, one cannot take advantage of dual processors. Yes you can!!!

I'm also experiencing relief from strange crashes in other areas of my system, like getting a blue screen whenever i shut down with my wireless network adapter enabled...

Sometimes, it seems, the problem is the hardware.

NJ

vangaans
07-03-2005, 12:42 PM
Have a new machine at home Dual Xeon, hand picked components and Lightwave 8.3 crashes all day long. Have two separate Dual Xeon machines at work, different brands, similar specs, QuadroFX cards, both new, Lightwave crashes them as well..very frequently.

I also use Maya and on the same machines doing the same type of work and I find Maya to be rock solid, on these machines as well, days without a hiccup.

Have tried Newtek recommended Nvidia drivers as well as all sorts but with no luck. I use standard plugins. Nothing out of the ordinary.

Lamont
07-03-2005, 02:17 PM
What are you doing to make it crash so much?

vangaans
07-03-2005, 02:26 PM
What are you doing to make it crash so much?

Use LW for TVC's and Broadcast.

lardbros
07-03-2005, 03:35 PM
I guess some of us have good luck and some have bad.

I have recently formatted my main hard drive trying to solve an internet issue, and Lightwave works very nicely indeed. It did before, but crashed a few times a day. Now I have only had one crash in Layout, and nothing since. Just had a couple of odd bug type things, nothing major though. Multiple UV maps with the same name under the surface editor, but they dissappeared when i closed it down and restarted.

toby
07-03-2005, 07:59 PM
You guys with lots of crashes should describe what you do a lot of, high poly count, IK, deformers, lots of textures and what format, etc. We may see a pattern -

The hub usually reduces stability too, try working without it.

The last repeatable crash I had was with lots of large 8-bit textures, to which I applied FP Blur. Unless I opened the textures in the image editor first, which forces LW to apply the blur completely, F9 would crash LW. It's as if the 8-bit images had to occupy 24 bits per channel when blurred, but LW was trying to render with only enough memory to render them at 8 bits.

A common F9 crash I've seen since 6.0 on OS9 is the very first render after loading a scene, especially if LW has just been launched. Seems to crash when trying to allocate ram, or it's under-allocating and trying to render with too little. Switching to quickshade to do the first render usually takes care of it.

Crash on closing I think was helped by clearing the scene before quitting.

vangaans
07-04-2005, 07:57 AM
You guys with lots of crashes should describe what you do a lot of, high poly count, IK, deformers, lots of textures and what format, etc. We may see a pattern -

Great idea, any help most appreciated.

Here is an example of a scene I am currently working on

Objects: 37
Points: 434860
Polygons: 706014
Object Memory: 46.9M
Bones: 0
IK Chains: 0
Lights: 3
Cameras: 3
Surfaces: 17 Images: 9
Render Memory: 51.6M
Free Memory: 1266.4 M [RAM] + 2758.0 M [page file]

For me the crashing doesn't seem to be associated with any particular type of scene. It can be really simple or more complex, LW behaves the same.

Modeler was crashing recently with a model with only a few hundred polygons.

Other apps I use on the same machine which are rock solid
Maya
After Effects
Premiere Pro
Photoshop etc

Will try deactivating the Hub, haven't had to do that for several versions but have a feeling you may be on to something there.
Re. Crashing on exit, Lightwave has always done that for me and it doesn't bother me so much, it's the continual crashing midway thru an animation job that get's really frustrating.

Will also try your tips on 8 bit images and quickshade rendering Toby..
Nice one!

I'm hoping the upcoming 64 bit version of LW will fix a lot of these problems.
Have my 64bit version of Windows on order. ;)

Thanks again

toby
07-04-2005, 02:31 PM
What kind of images are you using, can you try a different format? The jpeg.p input/output plugin has been a problem on the Mac for a while. I've never had a problem with .PNG on either platform, and they support 8-bit color which can save you lots of texture memory. It's also handy to use Photoshop's Save for Web function to export textures without having to scale or flatten the .psd you're making it with - you can even export 8-bit .pngs with alpha channels.

How about UV maps? They seem to cause instability in Modeler on the PC.

vangaans
07-05-2005, 04:51 AM
Bingo, I use Jpegs and Targas, will give PNG's a try.
Need my UV maps however. ;)

Thanks Toby

vangaans
07-05-2005, 05:19 AM
...as well as a lot of PSD files as textures

vangaans
07-09-2005, 12:42 AM
Hey Toby, thanks very much for all your help regarding my crashes.

LW is now heaps more stable and useable. :thumbsup:

Have disconnected the Hub (LW now much snappier)
Am only using PNG's (great format)
Am keeping the pixel sizes of my maps below 2k x 2k

thanks again Toby and everyone who suggested fixes


Paul

toby
07-09-2005, 01:54 AM
Sweet! I'm glad it made a difference. Would you say the hub was the biggest improvement?

vangaans
07-09-2005, 02:21 AM
Disconnecting the Hub made a big improvement, but dropping Jpegs and PSD's and using only PNG's made the biggest improvement to the stability of the software.

toby
07-09-2005, 02:39 AM
That's very good to know!

I personally need to update my vote in this poll, I've been pushing it harder, high-poly, uv's, plug-ins, baking, Fprime etc. - it crashes once or twice a day now.

:yingyang:

Jockomo
07-28-2005, 04:39 PM
Lightwave's stability for me depends entirely on the tools I am using.
When using only the tools I know work well, I can complete huge projects over weeks without ever shutting down and not a single crash.

When I use many of the newer tools such as the scene editor, dynamics, edges, etc. then I am just asking for trouble. It's sad, but I just avoid them. When trying to learn the new dynamic features, it got really frustrating because it was crashing all the time. Lack of documentation in the manual didn't help either.

There is also no real documentation on the limitations of these tools and I find that to be a problem as well. Obviously limitations are going to be based in part on the capacity of your computer, but it would be nice to have a reference, like: a 1gig system with 1 gig of ram. How many particles can you throw around dynamically? 100,000? 10,000,000? I often find myself pushing the limits of what Lightwave can handle and there are many crashes near the edge.

omayhemo
08-03-2005, 07:48 AM
I voted: "not per day, maybe 1 or 2 per week..."

For me LW is very stable. Three things come to
mind:

A man walks into the Doctor's office and says
to the Doctor while bending his arm backwards:
"I think something is wrong Doc, it hurts when I
do this." The Doctor observes and gives the man
a perscription note that reads: "Avoid bending
your in unnatural positions. Especailly backwards!"

This means that if LW Crashes when you do XYZ;
then by all means don't do XYZ!


System environment. Drivers, Partially broken
ram, System services, background tasks, low RAM
conditions, corrupt disk files, improper grounding
of (Monitor, system box, external perifials, etc.),
Unstable or not recommended bios and system
settings (like overclocking ANYTHING!!!), etc., etc.
can all by themselves and in combination cause
troubles for just LW while other apps may be ok
and vise-versa.


Enlightenment, Documentation, & Patience. Read
up on all the new and old bugs you can and apply
the good doctor's advice in #1 above. Keep a text
file of them and what you've done to correct for
them - workarounds, system settings etc. if you
seem to crash more than your share. Be patient.
Wait for things to finish up. Niether Windows nor
LW is stable enopugh to "work ahead" of the focus;
few softwares are and especially running in the
Windoze environment. Move fast when you are
doing something that IS fast... If it's too slow for
you chances are you're stressing out the system.
Bounding box display, proxy objects, turning off
fulltime IK when you don't need it on, etc. etc. etc..
There are MANY ways to speed things up! Learning
to work within the limits of the application whatever
it is, will reduce system stress and the number of
crashes as a result.

These ideas should be common sense - but then so
should driving defensivly... and we all see the jokers
run right up to our bumper at 75 miles an hour,
downshift, and floor it around us. How you drive,
the care you give to your vehicle, and the precautions
to take into consideration before you even start up
make a huge difference in the number of crashes
you'll encounter.

:cool:


This kind of response is far from productive or useful. Not doing whatever makes you crash? That is your answer. C'mon. Switching views is the most common cause of crash. The hub is tripe and causes crashes to increase by 200%. Common sense, is not going to stop LW from crashing. When one is doing typical modeling or scene layout and crashes occur, one can not stop what they are doing to avoid the crash.

JUST SILLY.

Layout and Modeler both crash upwards of 2 to 4 times an hour, sometimes more, depending upon how much I'm asking of it, due to BUGS and memory leaks. Avoiding switching views or using a tool is NOT an option.

toby
08-03-2005, 10:05 PM
This kind of response is far from productive or useful.
It sure as h*ll is useful.

Turning off the hub is an option. Using PNG's instead of JPGs is another. Learning what you can do to increase stability is not silly, especially if you want to get your work done - unless you prefer to crash and complain that is.

Like Jockomo said,

"When using only the tools I know work well, I can complete huge projects over weeks without ever shutting down and not a single crash. "
There's nothing silly about that. If you can't (or don't want to) get work done by avoiding crashes, you need to look into another 3D app.

faulknermano
08-03-2005, 10:59 PM
i can actually reasonably predict when LW will crash based on a certain series of scenes i'm working on, which relates to the plugins or setup i'm using at that time. from here i can save (incrementally) so that i do not lose any data.

btw: PNGs sounds like a good idea. however, using Maya and LW at the same time, i personally dont have that option. i either use PSDs, TGAs, or SGIs, but mostly TGAs. do TGAs or SGIs cause instability in LW, in anyone's personal experience?

parm
08-03-2005, 11:50 PM
I recognise common ground with most of the precursors for crashes and freezes described here.

The crash on quit bug. Since upgrading to 10.4.2 on the Mac, I've noticed that if it happens. I can re-launch modeler, make a ball or something, quit again and it's fixed itself.

Rounder sometimes works without a hitch, but a lot of crashes result after hitting the rounder button. Very likely its me not following the rules.
Using F-Prime guarantees at least one crash for me.

Quickly changing your mind about an action, doesn't often go down well. Like cancelling an F9 render before it really gets started. It's a mistake not to save after making lots of parameter changes before hitting F9.

On the whole one or two crashes per 7 or 8 hours. Well, it's usually at least 2, because I'll often do the same thing that caused the crash twice, sometimes three times. Just to make sure, you know.

Fore warned is fore armed

parm

johnchuray
08-03-2005, 11:59 PM
I'm real happy with my stability: 8.3 on G52.0/5GB RAM/10.3.9. I crash every, um, never. Before you get jealous, I should announce that I do not animate (much) nor do I have 3rd-party plugins (yet). I'm not really a newbie, I mean, I've been on it for about three years. I use LW 12 hours a day every stinking day, and I try to use every tool and trick. I leave tons of other apps open, do many other tasks while rendering, (I make giant files--for press) use Hub and never shut down my machine. I did have the stupid Line 224 whatever error and those mini-crashes quitting the NT apps, but that all went away with a simple trashing of the prefs. And my weak GeF5200 doesn't always keep up, but honestly, reading this thread was the only thing that made me think of LW and crashing in the same sentence.

Once, recently, an object file I made would not open. Don't know why, but I pray that never happens again.

omayhemo
08-04-2005, 06:01 AM
It sure as h*ll is useful.

Turning off the hub is an option. Using PNG's instead of JPGs is another. Learning what you can do to increase stability is not silly, especially if you want to get your work done - unless you prefer to crash and complain that is.

Like Jockomo said,

There's nothing silly about that. If you can't (or don't want to) get work done by avoiding crashes, you need to look into another 3D app.

I prefer not the crash or complain.

Turning off the hub doesn't solve the problem, doesn't even reduce it's frequency. Neither does PNGs. So...
AND I never said those options were silly, I said being diminutive in your post is also NOT HELPFUL AND IS INSULTING. Try to turn off the sarcasm button there pal.

toby
08-04-2005, 12:43 PM
I prefer not the crash or complain.

Turning off the hub doesn't solve the problem, doesn't even reduce it's frequency. Neither does PNGs. So...
AND I never said those options were silly, I said being diminutive in your post is also NOT HELPFUL AND IS INSULTING. Try to turn off the sarcasm button there pal.
OK, but you didn't say he was being diminuative (I don't agree) and I wasn't being sarcastic.

cholo
08-04-2005, 02:33 PM
Lightwave crashes are quite rare for me. I use Dell Workstations mostly and it runs like a rock. One instance, two, three no problem. I don't use many plug ins so that may be a factor. Another thing is I don't use antivirus, firewalls or other crap on my machines. When I have a problematic machine, the first thing I do is check if the hardware is running properly (basically run doom 3 for extended periods of time to check video card, as that particular game seems to be picky about it and prime 95 to test memory and processor). If the hardware is running ok then do a clean windows install, update everything and install the problem app. Try different versions. Norton Ghost is your friend. Don't give up. You can even try to run the app dongle-less but I won't offer any help in that area. Back in the days of 5.6 that was the only way I could make my copy of Aura work on Windows 2000 (and yes, I called NT tech support to try to make it work right but it just wouldn't).

omayhemo
08-04-2005, 03:13 PM
I use Dell Workstations mostly
Yup, that's what I've got at the office. A new one with PCIe.
I recently upgraded at home. Went from a rock solid AGP ATI to PCIe at home and at work and experienced the same problems in both machines.

However I just had another user verify in another thread that they have no PCIe problems, so that shoots down that piece of my theory.


:thumbsdow

OK, but you didn't say he was being diminuative (I don't agree) and I wasn't being sarcastic.
No I used different language, such as

far from productive or useful
But the meaning is similar.

And no you weren't sarcastic, he was, but I was confused as to which was which because you are so vigorously defending a troll.

I've gotten tired of people coming into support topics to tell folks in the topic how stupid they are when the person in question :

A.) Doesn't have the problem
OR
B.) Doesn't have a solution or a positive contribution to the discussion

And that's the meaning of this discussion between you and I. You're sticking up for that one troll that came in with nothing to add to the discussion except to lower the discourse. And I was impatient enough to feed him. 8~

starbase1
08-05-2005, 03:12 AM
Catching up here...

It's hard to be specific, but I too have a gut feeling for what makes it wobbly. A few of the things I have pinned down are:

1. Using modeller while layout is rendering. (And that's a REAL pain - I like to work on bits for the next run while one is going!)

Sounds like maybe not using the hub will help here. Do I just kill it in the (windows) task bar or what? :confused:

2. Big images. Another real pain, I get a lot of use from high res image maps of earth, and 'dont use them' is not a lot of help. Can anyone specifically say of it handles large PNG's better than large JPEG's? :confused:

I've also noticed that the texture preview thingy gets upset when the texture uses large images. It's almost like its using its own extra copy...

3. Modeller importing objects in other formats it doesn't like. Typically starts with stats window changing numbers for no apparent reason, and a crash generally follows soon after. :(

4. Running some slow functions on large objects in modeller. Most irritating is probably when the polygon reduction tools don't like objects with lots of polygons! :eek:

5. Most recently with my move to 8.3, some nurbs objects seem to crash my video drivers when I scrub the timeline! Windows XP recovers itself after a bit of faffing around. :mad:

How extreme would people rate the value of changing from JPG to PNG? 8~ I'm a bit reluctant to try and convert all my maps and stuff. And given that most are still distributed as JPG there's double compression or space to worry about...

Cheers, Nick

(Who still is very fond of his Lightwave, despite the above problems!) :thumbsup:

starbase1
08-05-2005, 03:13 AM
Catching up here...

It's hard to be specific, but I too have a gut feeling for what makes it wobbly. A few of the things I have pinned down are:

1. Using modeller while layout is rendering. (And that's a REAL pain - I like to work on bits for the next run while one is going!)

Sounds like maybe not using the hub will help here. Do I just kill it in the (windows) task bar or what? :confused:

2. Big images. Another real pain, I get a lot of use from high res image maps of earth, and 'dont use them' is not a lot of help. Can anyone specifically say of it handles large PNG's better than large JPEG's? :confused:

I've also noticed that the texture preview thingy gets upset when the texture uses large images. It's almost like its using its own extra copy...

3. Modeller importing objects in other formats it doesn't like. Typically starts with stats window changing numbers for no apparent reason, and a crash generally follows soon after. :(

4. Running some slow functions on large objects in modeller. Most irritating is probably when the polygon reduction tools don't like objects with lots of polygons! :eek:

5. Most recently with my move to 8.3, some nurbs objects seem to crash my video drivers when I scrub the timeline! Windows XP recovers itself after a bit of faffing around. :mad:

How extreme would people rate the value of changing from JPG to PNG? 8~ I'm a bit reluctant to try and convert all my maps and stuff. And given that most are still distributed as JPG there's double compression or space to worry about...

Cheers, Nick

(Who still is very fond of his Lightwave, despite the above problems!) :thumbsup:

omayhemo
08-05-2005, 05:54 AM
1.) Never done that. Lightwave Renderer takes 99-100% of my processor.
2.) Even on objects that have no maps or images, no surfaces changed at all it crashes often
3.) Rarely importing other formats. Sometimes I preconvert but those instances are few and far between. Most recently the object included with Lightwave have been crashing the most in modeler.
4.) This is certainly true, but the most common thing I'm doing before a crash is switching views in Modeler.
5.) I've definately traced a lot of crashing to nurbs, especiall weightmapping nurbs, but the crash I'm discussing in this forum, is the one that happens due to switching views and other commons things.

Don't mind using whatever image format and have tried that with no change.
I imagine that mostly helps with crashes in Layout anyway.

Thanks Starbase1, for the suggestions. I hope folks can keep their experiences coming and maybe I'll find one that is the end all.

kopperdrake
08-05-2005, 10:00 AM
LW7.5c on my old Shuttle 2.4Ghz 1Gb RAM running Win2000Pro used to crash quite regularly, if not every time, on quitting Modeler. I shifted it to my dual xeon 3.2 4Gb running WinXP Pro and it seemed just as bad. But no huge crashes that were any more frequent than anything.

Now running LW8.3b on the dual box and neither Modeler or Layout crash frequently - once a week maximum. I use LW about 6-9 hours a day, at least 5 days a week. Found a recent problem with sub-D surfaces and FPrime 1.5 which Kevin Stubbs could recreate, but LW itself seems good at the moment. 7.5 was never bad for me, but 8 seems better. Saying that I never really use particle systems or the more fun stuff so it might be different in that case.

Ah, system is a clean box, pretty much only 3 apps on it and one game (WoW) ;) Only plugin used regularly is FPrime. GFX card is a GF6800GTwith 256Mb.

Dunk

cholo
08-05-2005, 12:23 PM
Starbase:

Maybe I would try splitting those huge image maps into several smaller ones and splitting the object's surfaces. Maybe that'll be more stable. That way you could also only load the big image map for the object's parts you'll be flying close to. That would be especially easy with a sphere in case of earth maps. ;)

toby
08-05-2005, 03:15 PM
I've gotten tired of people coming into support topics to tell folks in the topic how stupid they are when the person in question :

A.) Doesn't have the problem
OR
B.) Doesn't have a solution or a positive contribution to the discussion

And that's the meaning of this discussion between you and I. You're sticking up for that one troll that came in with nothing to add to the discussion except to lower the discourse. And I was impatient enough to feed him. 8~
He offered lots of advice. That excludes him from the title of troll. Just because it didn't help you doesn't mean he had nothing to add, nor does it mean that he's calling you stupid.

ikarth
08-05-2005, 09:04 PM
Personally, I haven't lost any work in Modeler since the Save Incremental command was added to Modeler. That's a feature I wish a lot of other apps would add: one-button, no risk saves.

The only areas I've experenced crashing are when aborting a render - turning multithreaded rendering off (on a single-processor machine) cleared that up - and when Layout gets out of sync with Modeler.

Of course, this is on a machine which I've built with Lightwave in mind. No extra apps, etc. - I use my old PC for that.

TripD
08-05-2005, 10:10 PM
Modeler seems to get a lil angry with my graphics card from time to time.
3DLabs VP 880. Quite often when I change viewports (numeric pad zero)
modeler crashes. No biggy, i just save before.

starbase1
08-06-2005, 12:24 AM
Thanks Cholo,
Can you explain you you would do it? I'm probably missing a trick here...

Suppose for example I want to replace the UK with a higher resoloution map, (true!). Is there a way of making sure that the images line up exactly along the edges? I end up with a visible seam doing it manually...

Thanks,
Nick

omayhemo
08-06-2005, 08:20 AM
He offered lots of advice. That excludes him from the title of troll. Just because it didn't help you doesn't mean he had nothing to add, nor does it mean that he's calling you stupid.


EDIT: Oh nevermind.

Just- :tongue:

Lightwolf
08-06-2005, 08:29 AM
Hi Nick,


1. Using modeller while layout is rendering. (And that's a REAL pain - I like to work on bits for the next run while one is going!)
Sounds like maybe not using the hub will help here. Do I just kill it in the (windows) task bar or what? :confused:

No, don't do that... Create (i think it is called link, reference in the english XP...) a link to Modeler, rmb->properties and change the command from
c:\whatever\programs\modeler.exe
to
c:\whatever\programs\modeler.exe -0
I.e. add a -0 in the command line.
Use this instance of modeler to work while you render. It will not start the hub or hook up to it and will thus work independently.
You could do the same to Layout to decouple it from the hub.


2. Big images. Another real pain, I get a lot of use from high res image maps of earth, and 'dont use them' is not a lot of help. Can anyone specifically say of it handles large PNG's better than large JPEG's? :confused:

No difference internally whatsoever. The more I hear people talk about it, the more I think this is basically a mixture of lazy programming and bad memory handling on the Windows side of things. (I could go on...)
The problem is however independant of the image format you use, since internally it will all be handled the same way once it is loaded and decompressed.
And yes 8bit data (either greyscale or palettized) will use less memory within LW when loaded.

You could of course use infiniMap, but you knew that anyhow ;) (sorry for the plug)

Cheers,
Mike

starbase1
08-07-2005, 03:58 AM
Thanks for the tip Lightwolf...

Bog
08-12-2005, 05:04 AM
It crashes on me so often I hardly even notice it ;)

Seriously though, I don't see what the big deal is - so it goes "boom" sometimes. 3D toolsets are right out there *waves a hand* on the cutting edge of what we actually know how to do with computers. That's why we have Animator Christmas every year, when all the little Code Pixies get let out to play and talk about the arcana of maths that can curdle milk from 200 yards. While it's still in the cow. (I'm talking about SIGGRAPH, btw).

Add in the fact that it's running on the largest possible panoply of computers, from raggedy homebrew machines, possibly with a cuddly toy or an ammo box for a case, through to glistening probuild workstations... I'm amazed that it's as stable as it is. I've been using LightWave professionally for about ten years now, and it's never let me down - I might have bumped into a recurring crash that tells me that I can't do certain things a certain way, but there's always a work-around.

One particular time springs to mind - I was using Hypervoxels 1.0 to animate some DNA, and I wanted one segment to break off from the others. I was using multiple objects, and the Layout Twist tool. Oooh, it didn't like me one iota, and just kept crashing to the desktop. In the end, I used morphs. Yeah, it was a bit frustrating at the time, but I got the job done in time and on budget. That's the bottom line - there's almost always a workaround.

I dunno... I guess I'm pretty philosophical about it. LW is less crashy than any other 3D app I've ever used, which is one of the reasons I stick with it. But all 3D software crashes, unless it's a high-walled sandbox that doesn't let you push it's boundaries. Keep wearing the print off your Save Increment key, and all a crash costs you is a few minutes work. S'no biggie.