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byte_fx
05-18-2005, 02:02 PM
While reading the 64 bit vs 32 bit version of Lightwave topic

http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?t=36966


it became apparent that some people aren't aware that 32 bit Widows can access up to 64 gig of ram - depending on the version.

http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/system/platform/server/PAE/PAEmem.mspx


So - Newtek - what's the word? Can the current 32 bit version of LW access more than 2 gig of ram? If it doesn't can that become a hot action item for the users running render farms that might need access to a little more ram w/o having to upgrade all the farm boxes to 64 bit?


byte_fx

mattclary
05-18-2005, 03:57 PM
Coding that would be a bogus waste of resources.

byte_fx
05-18-2005, 05:27 PM
Having to replace 20 render mules just to go a little over 2 gig of ram access is way beyond a bogus waste of MY money.


Will YOU pay the bill ??


byte_fx

mattclary
05-18-2005, 05:30 PM
No, I'll keep current on the hardware front and move to 64bit.

Also, show me a 32bit motherboard that supports more than 4gb of RAM.

byte_fx
05-18-2005, 05:36 PM
It must be nice to have the bucks to build 21 - main plus 20 mules - 64 bit, fast dual proccessor systems.

Why don't you share some of it with the Lightwave communoty since you're so rich ??

byte_fx - STILL waiting to hear from someone on the programming team ....

mattclary
05-18-2005, 05:52 PM
OK, I'm sorry if I came across as a jerk, I don't want to start a flame war here. Let's think about this logically. At best, from what I can tell of the MS article, Newtek could increase LW's memory usage to 3gb. Your machines work for you today, I assume tomorrow morning they will still be working for you. You don't need to shell out the money for those machines tomorrow and not all at once.


Why do it half @ssed when you can do it right with 64bits? Wouldn't you rather Newtek spend their time making LightWave better, vs. spending time making it access more memory?

http://techreport.com/reviews/2005q1/64-bits/index.x?pg=2

The 64-bit advantage
When AMD's design team created the x86-64 ISA, they tackled several inherent deficiencies of the old x86 ISA. First and foremost among those was a very basic limitation of accessing memory with 32-bit addresses: the sum total of memory one can address at one time with a 32-bit number is 4GB. That may sound like a lot of memory for the average desktop PC, but then again, not every PC is average, and the x86 ISA is increasingly becoming the platform of choice for technical workstations and servers, as well. As memory densities increase over time thanks to the happy benefits of Moore's Law, that 4GB limit is beginning to look smaller and smaller.

Not only that, but the practical effects of 32-bit addressing are even more constraining. By default, Windows XP limits applications to 2GB of memory space and reserves 2GB for system-level tasks. (It is possible for x86 systems to address more than 4GB of total memory using a mechanism called Physical Address Extension, created by Intel. In fact, some server versions of Windows allow up to 128GB of physical RAM in a 32-bit system. However, PAE uses a paging scheme that generally isn't considered the most optimal way of doing things.)

Meanwhile, certain types of user data sets are growing constantly, from ever-higher resolutions in digital cameras to HD video streams to video games capable of taking advantage of 512MB of RAM on a graphics card. Scientific computing and technical workstations are already hitting their heads on 32-bit addressing limitations with regularity.

By moving to a 64-bit addressing scheme, the possible address space grows exponentially from 2^32 to 2^64, so that the x86-64 ISA allows for what seems like a practically unlimited amount of memory. The theoretical peak size of a 64-bit address space is 16 exabytes, an extremely large number. Current AMD64 processors allow up to 40 bits of physical address space, or one terabyte, and up to 48 bits of virtual address space, or 256TB. Initial versions of WinXP x64 will support as much as 128GB of physical RAM and up to 16 terabytes of virtual memory. The upper limits of the Windows system cache size grow from 1GB in 32 bits to 1TB in 64 bits, a thousand-fold increase. WinXP x64 even takes advantage of the additional headroom for 32-bit apps, giving each one up to 4GB of its own space.

In short, the move to 64 bits removes the memory address space constraints of the old x86 ISA, granting PCs room to grow for quite some time. This change alone won't bring performance benefits, except in cases where the amount of memory is a performance-constraning factor, but it's still probably the most important benefit of x86-64 overall.

paulhart
05-18-2005, 11:17 PM
Digital Fusion (www.eyeonline.com, Newtek partner) has the following information that is helpful for applicable OS. Take a look. For those who have more than 2 gb of RAM and want to use it now.

http://www.eyeonline.com/Web/EyeonWeb/Support/TechFAQ.aspx

Paul

byte_fx
05-19-2005, 05:09 AM
mattclary -


OK, I'm sorry of I cam across as a jerk, I don't want to start a flame war here.

Then why do you make so many statements like that?? Tends to cause people to ignore your commebts. And come to think of it - why did you even respond in the first place ?? Are you a Newtek programmer ??


Why do it half @ssed when you can do it right with 64bits.

On that I agree - in part. If you need to go beyond 4 gig. But after all your long winded explanation .... it would seem you didn't actually read my origimal post before sounding off. Big surprise. :rolleyes:

All I asked was if the current version could access more than 2 gig of ram. Plain and simple. And a request that Newtek add that ability to the 32 bit version if it can't. There are ways to do that w/o going 64 bit. And, frankly, I can't see going all 64 bit for an app that is becoming basically a 'toon package. I'm happy for the 'toon guys - but a full-on dual 64 bit cpu with 32 gig of ram box is kind of overkill for that type of work.

Which was and is my point - now that M$ has lifted the 32 bit 2 gig limit it'd be great if the the 32 bit version of LW took advatage of it.

If I need more than 4 gig then - yes - I'll add more dual cpu 64 bit boxes to what I already have (LW isn't the heaviest hitter 3D app with 64 bit beta versions undergoing testing). But I'm not going to ad more 64 bit boxes for LW.

I personally don't see a need to access much more than 3 gig max for my LW work - but it would be nice to have 6 gig useable if needed. I'll let others get their kicks by being the first kid on the bock with 64 bit LW - and wonder if they'll use it to clutter up scenes just because they can.

On the other hand - the heavy hitter 3D app that is currently in 64 bit bata is sweeeeeet - and differs substantially in feature set from it's 32 bit beta counterpart.

paulhart - thanks for the link. Knew I'd seen it somewhere. Sorry to say I never took the DF that came with the upgrade out if it's box.

byte_fx

Lightwolf
05-19-2005, 05:41 AM
Coding that would be a bogus waste of resources.
Well, if the code is 64bit clean, it is surely 32bit clean and all that is needed is to set a flag in the linking process.
Actually, if you have a MS C compiler you can even set the flag yourself (as is mentioned in the MS article).
So, what resources?

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
05-19-2005, 05:46 AM
Which was and is my point - now that M$ has lifted the 32 bit 2 gig limit it'd be great if the the 32 bit version of LW took advatage of it.

Without wanting to sound too much like a smart arse...
"now" is the release of WinXP you're refering to, as well as Windows2000 Server (and subsequent releases), both of which were the first to allow for more than 2GB per app. So, that /3GB switch is fairly old news. I'd still like to see NT support it without us hacking about (then again, I didn't check the latest binaries to see if they are LARGEADDRESSAWARE ).
Cheers,
Mike

mattclary
05-19-2005, 05:57 AM
Having to replace 20 render mules just to go a little over 2 gig of ram access is way beyond a bogus waste of MY money.


Will YOU pay the bill ??


byte_fx

Back to a question I asked earlier: I imagine they must exist, but can you show any non-64 bit motherboards that support more than 4gb of RAM?

Do your current machines support more than 4gb of RAM or will you have to wind up laying out for new hardware anyway (if your wish is granted), be it 64bit or 32bit that support more than 4gb of RAM?

Lightwolf
05-19-2005, 06:20 AM
Back to a question I asked earlier: I imagine they must exist, but can you show any non-64 bit motherboards that support more than 4gb of RAM?
There are quite a few actually, mostly high priced and made for servers. If I remember corectly there were even some for the Pentium Pro that supported more than 4GB...

But I think the questions is not more than 4GB, but more than 2GB ... and that is no problem with most current motherboards.

Cheers,
Mike

mattclary
05-19-2005, 06:21 AM
I guess I need to sell my truck so I can help him pay for them.... ;)

Lightwolf
05-19-2005, 06:23 AM
I guess I need to sell my truck so I can help him pay for them.... ;)
Hehe, well, once you want to go beyond 4GB, the price of the RAM makes up for the high price of the motherboard anyhow...

Cheers,
Mike

byte_fx
05-19-2005, 03:41 PM
Lightwolf -

In my original post I mentioned that in the other thread some people seemed to be unaware that 32 bit bit Windows could access more that 2 gig of ram.

Yes - it is old news - which some people are apparently still unaware of.

mattclary - your 'Claryitis' syndrome continues to worsen.



Back to a question I asked earlier: I imagine they must exist, but can you show any non-64 bit motherboards that support more than 4gb of RAM?

Again - you've totally, completely missed the point. I don't want or need more than 4 gig of ram for Lightwave. I just want the current vesion of LW to be able to use all of that 4 gig. Why do you, apparently, have such a hard time understanding that? Is it a reading comprehension problem - just curiois.

So - AGAIN - if you are not a Lightwave programmer why did you even bother posting in this topic anyway? Maybe to shill for 64 bit Lightwave ? Maybe just because you wanted to be insulting ?

You don't have to sell your truck. Although a dual cpu, dual core Opteron system is looming in my future I can afford it. Haven't decided yet about using it for Lightwave - most likely I'll stick with 32 bit LW 8x ond it's render farm for LW work.

byte_fx

mattclary
05-19-2005, 06:07 PM
Having to replace 20 render mules just to go a little over 2 gig of ram access is way beyond a bogus waste of MY money.

Will YOU pay the bill ??



I don't want or need more than 4 gig of ram for Lightwave


Well, which is it? Are you being thwarted by this lack of functionality or are you not?

The reason I reply, is because you posted this in a public forum. You expressed an idea I disagree with, so forgive me for having a differeing opinion. It is my right to express to Newtek that this isn't something I wish them to waste their time on, just as it is your right to attempt a convincing argument as to why they should.

The fact that you have no intention of utilizing said functionality says a mouthful.

I'm outta here.

byte_fx
05-19-2005, 07:25 PM
Well, which is it? Are you being thwarted by this lack of functionality or are you not?

.............

The fact that you have no intention of utilizing said functionality says a mouthful.

I'm outta here.

I guess it must that reading comprehenion thing.

I can use up to 4 gigs of ram if available under 32 bit version. But have no need to go beyond that - at leaet in Lightwave.

And - yes - not being able to use just over 3 gig of ram has resulted in buying and using apps that can.

I could put LW 64 on a 64 bit system biut why bother? My render farm is 32 bit and will most likely stay that way for some time.

Should Newtek support customers that might not want to upgrade their render farms to 64 bit just to get the use of 4 gig of ram? That's something only Newtek can determine.

Along with how well the 32 bit version will be supported after the LW 64 release. That's something I'm waiting to see and will affect my choice for prime app.

bye_fx