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retinajoy
05-17-2005, 05:46 AM
I thought Newtek were going to be the 1st, but looks like Maxon have beaten them to it. Seems they are making it a free upgrade too to existing customers. Over the past couple of years they have certainly made big headway, and really attacked the LW market share.

Lightwave over the past year has also moved on at a steady pace, and recent updates and annoucements have given many, I think confidence. I do hope though that LW which is my prefered tool after being seriously tempted by Cinema and XSI (the jury is still out), will become a leader over the next 12 months, as the last 12 months at least has been playing catch up (but doing it well) with still some advantages over previously mentioned apps.

I hope 8.5 will be a leap. I think it will be, but proof is in the pudding.

:)

Lynx3d
05-17-2005, 06:40 AM
Hm just have to think of an old german commercial...here it would be something like:
While Villariba is still announcing 64bit, Villabajo is already using it...

Captain Obvious
05-17-2005, 08:07 AM
To be perfectly honest, I think 64-bittiness is a tad over-rated, even for 3D applications. Most of us will not run into the 32-bit cealing for many years yet. Honestly, how many of us have the hardware required for multi-billion-polygon scenes? It's a huge step for some, of course, but I don't think it's a shame on NewTek's honour if they aren't first.

mattclary
05-17-2005, 08:14 AM
Actually, no, it's relevant today.

http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showpost.php?p=235463&postcount=12

robinson
05-17-2005, 08:23 AM
To be perfectly honest, I think 64-bittiness is a tad over-rated, even for 3D applications.

You will think different if you see the lightwave hypervoxel rendering speeeeeeeed on a 64 bit system, have seen it on the fmx in Stuttgart a few week ago, nice. :D

Captain Obvious
05-17-2005, 09:17 AM
Actually, no, it's relevant today.

http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showpost.php?p=235463&postcount=12
If a 64-bit application can load a certain object with less than 4 gigabytes (or 2 gigabytes in Windows) of RAM, it is theoretically possible for a 32-bit application to load that same object. If not, there is something in the architecture of the application that prevents it, it's not a limitation with a 32-bit system, as such. At least I'm pretty sure there is no such limitation... I could be wrong, of course. Maybe someone at NewTek could inform of what, exactly it is that's keeping 32-bit Lightwave from loading more than one?

UnCommonGrafx
05-17-2005, 09:18 AM
Big diff on the horizon...

But, I don't understand how this is a coupe on their, Maxon's part. As the systems aren't available for this today, isn't it all vaporware, of sorts? Or am I missing that LightWave 64bit was rolled out at WinHEC, http://www.newtek.com/products/lightwave/newsletters/v2-n4/index.html#winhec, as well as the open Beta program, http://www.newtek.com/products/lightwave/newsletters/v2-n3/index.html#64bit.

Just curious...

Lightwolf
05-17-2005, 09:35 AM
As the systems aren't available for this today, isn't it all vaporware, of sorts?
What do you mean, the systems aren't available?
The hardware has been here for almost two years (since the Opteron launch) and you can get XP64 from M$ (and a final release it is too...).

Cheers,
Mike

UnCommonGrafx
05-17-2005, 09:38 AM
Thanks for the correction on that part, which I knew... Straw men are just that... ;)

And thus my point: isn't this a moot point?

Lightwolf
05-17-2005, 09:49 AM
And thus my point: isn't this a moot point?
What is? the fact that C4D 64 is available today and LW64 isn't or what? :confused:?

Cheers,
Mike

Cageman
05-17-2005, 10:07 AM
If a 64-bit application can load a certain object with less than 4 gigabytes (or 2 gigabytes in Windows) of RAM, it is theoretically possible for a 32-bit application to load that same object. If not, there is something in the architecture of the application that prevents it, it's not a limitation with a 32-bit system, as such. At least I'm pretty sure there is no such limitation... I could be wrong, of course. Maybe someone at NewTek could inform of what, exactly it is that's keeping 32-bit Lightwave from loading more than one?

Well, I dont think they used a 2GB machine when they tried 64-bit LW. But, yeah, I agree on what you are saying, but my guess is that a 64-bit system would handle it smoother because of the new memory-architecture. If you doubt on 64-bit usefullness in 3D, then take a look at the videos on this site:

http://www.newtek.com/news/releases/04-25-05a.html

Captain Obvious
05-17-2005, 10:21 AM
Well, I dont think they used a 2GB machine when they tried 64-bit LW. But, yeah, I agree on what you are saying, but my guess is that a 64-bit system would handle it smoother because of the new memory-architecture. If you doubt on 64-bit usefullness in 3D, then take a look at the videos on this site:

http://www.newtek.com/news/releases/04-25-05a.html
Oh, no, I don't doubt it, as such. But I think it's over-hyped regardless. I sure as heck won't benefit from it. Most Lightwave users won't benefit at all. There will of course be fringe benefits not as such related to the 64-bittiness, too. The better display speed is not because it's 64-bit, but because either Microsoft or NewTek improved something else entirely while they were at it.

mattclary
05-17-2005, 10:37 AM
But I think it's over-hyped regardless.

I don't really feel like there is this big "hype" about 64bit. It's more like an unstoppable train moving our way. It's coming, regardless of whether you "need" it or not. If you were to buy a system today (being who we are, and doing what we do), it would be a little silly to NOT buy a 64bit system.

I remember discussing computers with an older friend back in 1992. He had a 386 with 2-4mb of RAM. At the time, I was mulling the possibility of buying a 486 that was on sale at the local BX (base exchange, ex Air Force). He proceeded to talk about how silly it was to get such a computer, as the 386 could do everything you could possibly want it to do.

Sound familiar?

Intuition
05-17-2005, 11:07 AM
I have to chime in here.

I have been hitting 32 bit walls in 3d for 2 years now. Most of the time I use compositing as a solution to having too many poly's or massive bitmaps in a scene.

Right when I start thinking a scene is getting to my standards I crash the program.

I often try to use 16,000x 8,000 pixel planet maps and then have space ships with tons of geometry and textures as well. I can easily use up 4gigs of memory on textures alone.

I know many don't hit the 32bit wall but alot of us do. I am trying to get multiple 64bit setups by the end of this year.

I am really glad Newtek decided to go 64bit. It will keep thier package in the cutting edge technology sector. If companies do not stride for the latest possible tech solutions they will fall behind other companies that stay innovative.

Thats where the prosumers go with thier $$$.

Captain Obvious
05-17-2005, 11:30 AM
I don't really feel like there is this big "hype" about 64bit. It's more like an unstoppable train moving our way. It's coming, regardless of whether you "need" it or not. If you were to buy a system today (being who we are, and doing what we do), it would be a little silly to NOT buy a 64bit system.

I remember discussing computers with an older friend back in 1992. He had a 386 with 2-4mb of RAM. At the time, I was mulling the possibility of buying a 486 that was on sale at the local BX (base exchange, ex Air Force). He proceeded to talk about how silly it was to get such a computer, as the 386 could do everything you could possibly want it to do.

Sound familiar?
No, it doesn't sound the least bit familiar. It's a completely different thing. Besides, I agree with you! It would indeed be silly to buy a new computer today and not buy a 64-bit one (if you do 3D stuff or something such, of course... for checking mail and such, it doesn't really matter).



Oh, and Intuition, I've never once said that a 64-bit Lightwave isn't a big deal for those who keep running into the 32-bit wall, like you. ;)

harlan
05-17-2005, 12:46 PM
Yep. I was a little disappointed when I saw the Cinema4D 64bit press release myself. It was beginning to look like NewTek for the first time in a very long time would be launching something well in advance of its competitors. Oh well. To quote a sh!tty band "So much for the afterglow".

mattclary
05-17-2005, 01:51 PM
Oh well, lets look on the bright side: At least our 64bit version won't have a bunch of ugly a** icons. :cool:

tischbein3
05-17-2005, 02:00 PM
surpise surpise !

NT shows a 64bit version in public, and shortly AFTER another company says "we will have it too, and we will have it sooner."

now WHO is the innovative force ?

well I prefer having the "64bit" -second or -third 3d application wich will be useable,
than a hastily hacked version, wich has been primarly created for marketing (NOT market) strategies.

mattclary
05-17-2005, 02:11 PM
a hastily hacked version

Or a simple re-compile. ;)

Yog
05-17-2005, 02:24 PM
surpise surpise !

NT shows a 64bit version in public, and shortly AFTER another company says "we will have it too, and we will have it sooner."

now WHO is the innovative force ?
Oh come on.
Every software developer and their dog has been working on a 64bit version of their program for years. These things don't appear overnight you know :rolleyes:

There is nothing inovating in anouncing that you "intend" to do something, in fact there is only marginal kudos in being first to deliver when everyone else will be releasing their product in a week or two.

Sure, be suportive of your choosen software, but no need to be snide about other developers, especially when there is significant amounts of pot calling kettle black going on :p

Captain Obvious
05-17-2005, 02:48 PM
Sure, be suportive of your choosen software, but no need to be snide about other developers, especially when there is significant amounts of pot calling kettle black going on
Quoted for Great Truth

Intuition
05-17-2005, 04:21 PM
No, it doesn't sound the least bit familiar. It's a completely different thing. Besides, I agree with you! It would indeed be silly to buy a new computer today and not buy a 64-bit one (if you do 3D stuff or something such, of course... for checking mail and such, it doesn't really matter).



Oh, and Intuition, I've never once said that a 64-bit Lightwave isn't a big deal for those who keep running into the 32-bit wall, like you. ;)


Thanks, my ego couldn't handle the small world of 32 bit for much longer.
(sarcasm)

;)

Captain Obvious
05-17-2005, 04:25 PM
You should really try to convert your ego format to 32-bit floating point. A 32-bit float can reach numbers as high as 10^255, I think, compared to the 10^9 reachable by a 32-bit integer. It's not like the small lack of precision is that big a loss, right? ;)

(Useless post, in case it wasn't obvious.)

JML
05-17-2005, 04:55 PM
we do architectural work here with pretty big scenes and we have to be carefull about polygons count and the memory we have.

the 64bit version of LW would help us a LOT, but it won't happen overnight for us..
going in the 64bit world, we need to buy new computers (all the one we have are 32bit) upgrade to XP64 which should not be a problem, and the worst,
double the amount of memory we usually get on each workstations and renderboxxes.. pretty expensive..
so that make take some time. but it will be worth it I think. (at least for us)

I agree that LW64 won't benefit everybody.. only high-end users..
(I won't need LW64 at home because I don't have huge scene like at work..)

tischbein3
05-17-2005, 06:14 PM
Oh come on.
Every software developer and their dog has been working on a 64bit version of their program for years. These things don't appear overnight you know :rolleyes:


Years ?!?
Well... and this is exactly the point: announcement is just too close to the WINHEC presentation. If it would have been onte or two month before or later...ok, but this makes me more than suspicious,...



Sure, be suportive of your choosen software, but no need to be snide about other developers, especially when there is significant amounts of pot calling kettle black going on :p

I'll never attack developers, This was mainly targeted as marketing attack....

and well critics rocks ! :)
in fact its still the best source for innovation. ...

But I don't really see anything constructive, in:
"LW is not the first 64bit render soft out there", while they are in heavy beta testing.

So what the point? Should NT: Stopping LW32bit updates ? Releasing a bug filled version just for beeing first ? Stop LW64bit development because now 'half the fun is gone' ?

...and, (for me) the most important question, whats the point of this thread after all ?! (maybe something completly different ?)

tischbein3
05-17-2005, 06:24 PM
Or a simple re-compile. ;)

:D

The only thing I can't wait for is: the first posts when its aviable......

Nemoid
05-17-2005, 11:47 PM
While it doesn't matter to me to know exactly when Lw64 will be at our disposal, i know for sure that some italian users didn't receive news about their betatesting request.

some of them were "passed" from Newtek USA to Newtek europe, but didn't receive any news (yes or not) so far.

Hope betatesting is doing well, tho, and that Lw 64 will com e soon.

its not a matter of who arrives first.

Lynx3d
05-18-2005, 02:32 AM
A 32-bit float can reach numbers as high as 10^255, I think, compared to the 10^9 reachable by a 32-bit integer. It's not like the small lack of precision is that big a loss, right? ;)

(Useless post, in case it wasn't obvious.)

Useless, and yet wrong ;)
The largest positive IEEE 32bit float is (2- 2^-23 ) x 2^127, which is "barely" 3.403 x 10^38...

You see, so much misinformation about all the bitness, and it already starts by not understanding floats *g*

Captain Obvious
05-18-2005, 02:40 AM
Useless, and yet wrong ;)
The largest positive IEEE 32bit float is (2- 2^-23 ) x 2^127, which is "barely" 3.403 x 10^38...

You see, so much misinformation about all the bitness, and it already starts by not understanding floats *g*
OH, right, darnit. I shouldn't try to post stuff like that when I haven't slept. But still, 10^38 is a lot more than 10^9. I wasn't wrong, per se. ;)

Lightwolf
05-18-2005, 06:55 AM
Years ?!?
Well, the first 64bit version of Modeler on the Itanium was shown in 2000 I thinkg it was at Siggraph.
And since it has been known for at least two years that 64bit computing will hit the desktop next (with the release of the Opterons as well as the G5s) I'd say years is pretty close.
At least the developers had 64bit in their mind for the past couple of years, knowing it would sooner or later come (just as we surely know since about a year that muli-core is the future).

Cheers,
Mike

Captain Obvious
05-18-2005, 07:25 AM
Well, the first 64bit version of Modeler on the Itanium was shown in 2000 I thinkg it was at Siggraph.
And since it has been known for at least two years that 64bit computing will hit the desktop next (with the release of the Opterons as well as the G5s) I'd say years is pretty close.
At least the developers had 64bit in their mind for the past couple of years, knowing it would sooner or later come (just as we surely know since about a year that muli-core is the future).

Cheers,
Mike
Yeah, it's a bit like search functions. Everyone says everybody else ripped them off, but they've all been working on it for years without knowing of the other projects... Not much room for calling the competition's products ripoffs. ;)

Lightwolf
05-18-2005, 07:29 AM
Yeah, it's a bit like search functions. Everyone says everybody else ripped them off, but they've all been working on it for years without knowing of the other projects... Not much room for calling the competition's products ripoffs. ;)
Actually, I don't think ripping off is the right term here...
Everyone is driving toward a brick wall, some see it earlier, some see it later, but they all have to hit the brakes before its too late ;)
I wouldn't call the one stepping into the brakes the latest a rip-off :p
Cheers,
Mike

Captain Obvious
05-18-2005, 07:52 AM
Actually, I don't think ripping off is the right term here...
Everyone is driving toward a brick wall, some see it earlier, some see it later, but they all have to hit the brakes before its too late ;)
I wouldn't call the one stepping into the brakes the latest a rip-off :p
Cheers,
Mike
Yes, that was my point. ;) It's the natural evolution of things. Being first does not mean you're innovating, being last does not mean you're copying.

Lightwolf
05-18-2005, 07:53 AM
Yes, that was my point. ;)
Hehe, good to know Mr. Captain Sometimes Not So Obvious Sir ;)
Cheers,
Mike

Captain Obvious
05-18-2005, 08:14 AM
Hehe, good to know Mr. Captain Sometimes Not So Obvious Sir ;)
Cheers,
Mike
I'm like Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde; Captain Obvious and Captain Confused & Obscure. ;)


Okay, enough thread-hijacking for now...

Titus
05-18-2005, 06:36 PM
I remember Carrera selling Alpha systems with LightWave 5.5 bundled. The Alpha featured a 64 bit processor and a 64 bit OS, but was LightWave a 64 bit app?

Ade
05-18-2005, 06:47 PM
Maybe Newtek can be the first mac 64bit 3d app...
Id prefer they worked with apple to develope the 64bit UI so in term it has optimisations for mac side.

Axis3d
05-18-2005, 06:58 PM
I remember Carrera selling Alpha systems with LightWave 5.5 bundled. The Alpha featured a 64 bit processor and a 64 bit OS, but was LightWave a 64 bit app?

Yes, about 10 years ago, I used Lightwave on a DEC Alpha computer. From what I understand, Lightwave was 64 bit. Back then, Windows NT was written for the Alpha processor. The problem was, hardly any other software vendors (After Effects, Photoshop) ported a version to the Alpha. The Alpha hung in there for several years, but then Microsoft gave up support on the Alpha and and there was no more OS to run on it. Eventually, the Alpha faded away and became more useful as Linux servers and such. I still have my Carrera Alpha system (gathering dust).

I only hope that the introduction of another new 64 bit hardware / software solution doesn't go by the wayside again. The software companies need to get on board and write their software for them. In this day and age, I can see that HD and film rez compositing could benefit greatly from a 64 bit OS. I'd like to think that the Alpha, like the Amiga, was just way ahead of its time.

policarpo
05-19-2005, 12:05 AM
Maybe Newtek can be the first mac 64bit 3d app...
Id prefer they worked with apple to develope the 64bit UI so in term it has optimisations for mac side.

From what I understand, 64bit optimizations under Tiger are handled at the command line level, however, a 32bit UI can be drawn to display the supported 64bit content.

I am not sure how the OpenGL performance would look...but I am sure we'll see a demo of it some time soon from some one out there. :) I am no programmer, but it sounds like the 32bit UI is merely a display skin, so you can preview 64bit content provided the app is compliant with Tigers code base...but I am just speculating of course...but I am sure we'll see something in the OpenGL market using the 64bit power of the G5.

Maybe some geeked out Scientist with his PowerBook solving world epidemics. ;)

Captain Obvious
05-19-2005, 04:27 AM
Yes, about 10 years ago, I used Lightwave on a DEC Alpha computer. From what I understand, Lightwave was 64 bit.
The Alpha is only 64-bit, as far as I can recall.




From what I understand, 64bit optimizations under Tiger are handled at the command line level, however, a 32bit UI can be drawn to display the supported 64bit content.
Yep. You run the 64-bit "engine" of the application without using any high-level APIs (like Cocoa and Carbon) and thusly without a graphical user interface. You then connect a graphical front-end to it by using shared memory or some other mechanism. It probably isn't all that hard to build an application around this, but to make Lightwave compatible with this method might be more work than it's worth.

I would expect The Other Company's products to use this method, quite honestly.

Lightwolf
05-19-2005, 04:35 AM
I would expect The Other Company's products to use this method, quite honestly.
Well, I followed their discussion on the topic, and they won't.
I'd assume it is not worth it to re-work the core of their app to support one release of their supported OSs (since everybody assumes that the next gen OSX will allow for GUI based 64bit apps).
I guess by the time they re-work the app to be hybrid 32/64, Apple will be releasing the next upgrade anyhow.

Cheers,
Mike

Captain Obvious
05-19-2005, 04:56 AM
I guess by the time they re-work the app to be hybrid 32/64, Apple will be releasing the next upgrade anyhow.
Yeah, perhaps... Oh well.

Rell
05-20-2005, 09:12 PM
Hello everyone,

I remember Newtek issued this press release
http://www.newtek.com/news/releases/04-25-05b.html

Seattle , WA April 25, 2005 NewTek, Inc., creators of the Emmy award-winning LightWave 3D modeling, rendering and animation program today previewed a new, easy to use 3D product Inspire 3D . Specifically designed for non-traditional 3D markets such as print, graphic design, education, video and web creation, Inspire 3D is built atop the LightWave 3D engine, production-proven in thousands of feature films, television shows, commercials and video games, as well as dozens of newspaper and magazine graphics departments.


Inspire 3D takes maximum advantage of capabilities in the latest generation graphics cards, CPUs and operating systems to provide immediate interactive feedback. Artists using the latest hardware and Windows XP Professional x64 Edition will see even greater benefits, in terms of speed and capability, making creation of 3D graphics much more rewarding.

One of the great advantages of 64-bit technology is the ability to access large amounts of memory and bandwidth quickly and effectively, said Brian Marr, senior product manager at Microsoft Corp. Its great to see companies like NewTek seizing this advantage and bringing the power of 64-bit technology to the graphics community. Now that artists know that the system resources are there for them to produce complex graphics quickly and to see the results almost immediately, there is the opportunity for a whole new group of artistic professionals to pursue creation of 3-D graphics and animation.


Pricing and Availability
Inspire 3D will have a suggested retail price of $195. Inspire 3D will be available for Windows XP, Windows XP Professional x64 Edition and Macintosh OS X. A free public beta program for pre-release versions of Inspire 3D is scheduled to begin in Q2, 2005. Anyone wishing to participate in the Inspire 3D public beta program may sign up on the NewTek web site at www.newtek.com/inspire3d.


And I seen it for sale at safe harbor so Newtek beat Maxon to the punch, provided the claims of it is true. Even if they didn't it's a win win situation for me as I like both(newtek/maxon) the same.

policarpo
05-20-2005, 09:21 PM
ummm...to read it and use it something different no?

Lightwolf
05-21-2005, 04:35 AM
I am not sure how the OpenGL performance would look...but I am sure we'll see a demo of it some time soon from some one out there. :)
Well, it won't be NT, Maxon or Lux - all of them complain about the same problem with Tiger...
Cheers,
Mike

Nemoid
05-21-2005, 06:33 AM
Hello everyone,

I remember Newtek issued this press release
http://www.newtek.com/news/releases/04-25-05b.html

Seattle , WA April 25, 2005 NewTek, Inc., creators of the Emmy award-winning LightWave 3D modeling, rendering and animation program today previewed a new, easy to use 3D product Inspire 3D . Specifically designed for non-traditional 3D markets such as print, graphic design, education, video and web creation, Inspire 3D is built atop the LightWave 3D engine, production-proven in thousands of feature films, television shows, commercials and video games, as well as dozens of newspaper and magazine graphics departments.


Inspire 3D takes maximum advantage of capabilities in the latest generation graphics cards, CPUs and operating systems to provide immediate interactive feedback. Artists using the latest hardware and Windows XP Professional x64 Edition will see even greater benefits, in terms of speed and capability, making creation of 3D graphics much more rewarding.

One of the great advantages of 64-bit technology is the ability to access large amounts of memory and bandwidth quickly and effectively, said Brian Marr, senior product manager at Microsoft Corp. Its great to see companies like NewTek seizing this advantage and bringing the power of 64-bit technology to the graphics community. Now that artists know that the system resources are there for them to produce complex graphics quickly and to see the results almost immediately, there is the opportunity for a whole new group of artistic professionals to pursue creation of 3-D graphics and animation.


Pricing and Availability
Inspire 3D will have a suggested retail price of $195. Inspire 3D will be available for Windows XP, Windows XP Professional x64 Edition and Macintosh OS X. A free public beta program for pre-release versions of Inspire 3D is scheduled to begin in Q2, 2005. Anyone wishing to participate in the Inspire 3D public beta program may sign up on the NewTek web site at www.newtek.com/inspire3d.


And I seen it for sale at safe harbor so Newtek beat Maxon to the punch, provided the claims of it is true. Even if they didn't it's a win win situation for me as I like both(newtek/maxon) the same.


hahahah way cool!! :) so Nt was the first one however.

Lightwolf
05-21-2005, 06:52 AM
hahahah way cool!! :) so Nt was the first one however.
Well, the first one to announce, not the first one to release though (or who outside of the beta uses any LW/Inspire 64bit version on XP64 now?).

Then again, last time NT beat Maxon by a day with the OSX release ;)

Cheers,
Mike

policarpo
05-21-2005, 10:02 AM
Well, the first one to announce, not the first one to release though (or who outside of the beta uses any LW/Inspire 64bit version on XP64 now?).

Then again, last time NT beat Maxon by a day with the OSX release ;)

Cheers,
Mike


I just wish I could see selected points in shaded mode in LW8 on my PowerBook running OSX 10.3.9. :(

Lightwolf
05-21-2005, 11:10 AM
I just wish I could see selected points in shaded mode in LW8 on my PowerBook running OSX 10.3.9. :(
Ah, points schmointz ... who needs them? :p :D
Cheers,
Mike - SCNR ;)

Lynx3d
05-21-2005, 12:23 PM
Come on, you're just saying that because you don't own one of those "world's first 64bit desktop computers"...
*must...not...smile...*

No but seriously, there are some other just as (or actually more) important things to do, in the end it matters how good LW runs on everyones system, and not who was the first to make it possible to bloat more than 4GB memory...IMHO.
The Cinema users already complained that Maxon pushed a 64bit version but did not fix some nasty editing bug.

Emmanuel
05-22-2005, 07:24 AM
What I wonder is: does it mean that LW will soon be 64-bit-only ?
I wished HVs were faster on 32-bit-machines, too :confused:

Lightwolf
05-22-2005, 07:58 AM
What I wonder is: does it mean that LW will soon be 64-bit-only ?
I doubt it. I assume at least the next major release will be 32bit as well, probably even the one after that as well. As for LW 11, who knows... ;)

Cheers,
Mike

Captain Obvious
05-22-2005, 09:08 AM
Could someone with technical knowledge about HVs perhaps enlighten me? Why are they so much faster in LW64? Are they reworked, or are they made using 64-bit integers?

Lightwolf
05-22-2005, 09:26 AM
Could someone with technical knowledge about HVs perhaps enlighten me? Why are they so much faster in LW64? Are they reworked, or are they made using 64-bit integers?
Well, there are probably three reasons:
1) No more code to support "legacy" processors, all x86-64 processors support at least SSE2.
2) No fpu support in XP64, you are forced to use SSE2 for all floating point computations.
3) Maybe the HV code benefits more from the extra number of registers than other parts of the code.

Cheers,
Mike - just guessing.

Captain Obvious
05-22-2005, 09:51 AM
So it's probably just fringe benefits from 64-bit computing, and not the actual extra bits?

Lightwolf
05-22-2005, 10:19 AM
So it's probably just fringe benefits from 64-bit computing, and not the actual extra bits?
Absolutely. If the instruction set was one to one identical in both 32bit and 64bit modes you could probably expect a slowdown in 64bit, not a speed up. Fortunately on the x86 front, AMD was smart enough to expand the instruction set while they were at it (and the extra amount of registers are dearly needed for the "ageing" x86 architecture)...

Cheers,
Mike

james_dmi
05-22-2005, 11:37 AM
I can think of a few more reasons beyond development time why NT wont bother with a 64bit mac version until apple release a true 64bit OS:

Firstly the processing required translating the information from the 64bit core to the 32 bit display would negate any performance advantage a 64Bil LW would have.

Secondly the advantage of having high poly count scenes would be negated as all the vertex information for the scene would need to be passed to the 3D card that is running in the 32Bit context. Therefore the 3D data would still be limited by the 32bit memory barrier.

Thirdly the advantage of very large textures would either run into extra performance barriers as the processor would have to dynamically resample these to low-res versions to pass into the 32bit domain without the G.P.U. acceleration for this task or again limit these to 32bit.

But most importantly, and this goes for almost any application that is interactive, writhing a program that has a separate UI running to the core is just as difficult to go as multithreading the application itself, with all the pitfalls of synchronisation, racing and variable protection you run into with multi-threaded design. LW is not multi-threaded apart form the render. This would take a huge amount of re-engineering and if NT were to tackle this Im sure they would rather split the threads duties up into segments for performance reasons rather then the artificial reasons tiger imposes.

I think the only 64bit development that makes sense for tiger would be a 64bit render node as that has no interface to worry about.

Captain Obvious
05-22-2005, 02:02 PM
Thirdly the advantage of very large textures would either run into extra performance barriers as the processor would have to dynamically resample these to low-res versions to pass into the 32bit domain without the G.P.U. acceleration for this task or again limit these to 32bit.
I'm pretty sure Lightwave does that NOW, since you can limit the size of the textures in the display without effecting the final render.




I think the only 64bit development that makes sense for tiger would be a 64bit render node as that has no interface to worry about.
Well, why not? Even if the scene can't be set up on a Mac, you can still render on it. That cannot be an awful lot of work.


Oh, and let's not forget that in Windows/x86, you get a whole heap of advantages that aren't really related to the extra bits as such, just like Lightwolf said earlier. On the Mac, you do not get those bonuses.

Lightwolf
05-22-2005, 03:13 PM
I'm pretty sure Lightwave does that NOW, since you can limit the size of the textures in the display without effecting the final render.
Just think about all the cases LW has to take care of... as in the example with images... think about image filters that have to render on the full image, but still show the result in the GUI, or even worst, have to be able to display the full image using the image editor. Ouch.
Also, plugins aren't really set-up to operate on that kind of architecture either...

It's just ... if you think it through all cases you'll notice what a daunting task it would be...



Well, why not? Even if the scene can't be set up on a Mac, you can still render on it. That cannot be an awful lot of work.

..Except for the switch to XCode and of course breaking plugin compatibility (then again, that is true for the Linux render node as well).

Cheers,
Mike