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somnambulance
05-05-2005, 04:25 PM
Anyone been doing any compression with the new .mp4 compressor? I did one test with a clip and the quality seemed a little better but the file was a quater the size!

monovich
05-05-2005, 07:00 PM
can't wait to take advantage of it, but not enough people have 7, so it's a bit pointless for mass distribution of content so far.

-s

riki
05-05-2005, 11:56 PM
I bought a copy of QT Pro 7 the other day but haven't had much of a chance to check it out properly yet.

Nigel Baker
05-06-2005, 05:36 AM
Hi everyone,

Yes Quicktime 7 really is years ahead of the competition.
I think the new HD videos are brilliant.
I have not used Pro yet, although I miss my Pro6 Keys and I just can't stand down grading.

Awaiting the arrival of my Final Cut Studio to come ( with Quicktime Pro included ) Build time 4 - 6 weeks - really weird.

somnambulance
05-06-2005, 08:25 AM
I got pro, but I dont have Tiger yet. I guess the HD ability only works with Tiger. Its probably time I upgrade anyway.

allanBook
05-07-2005, 03:28 AM
I got pro, but I dont have Tiger yet. I guess the HD ability only works with Tiger. Its probably time I upgrade anyway.

If you have QT7 (Pro or otherwise) under Panther, you should be able to view the HD material that Apple has posted at http://apple.com/trailers (like the shuweeet Batman Begins HD trailer).

Of course, if you only have QT6 (pro or otherwise), then you cannot see that material (since H.264 is QT7 only, regardless of Panther or Tiger).

somnambulance
05-07-2005, 08:45 AM
Oh, everything is functioning great, I just read this about the codec (http://www.apple.com/quicktime/technologies/h264/). Under the part that says "Built into QuickTime 7", but maybe they are just tryin to plug Tiger as much as they can.

stargatesg1
05-07-2005, 02:12 PM
I was fooling with it the other day.. it was crashing my qt7 player but I found out that Apple released an update to QuickTime Broadcaster. :)

So far very nice and im very happy with the changes in H.264 for streaming.

I don't use vt stream i prefer QT. I go out of the Toaster with dv into the mac paly right off the timeline out to QT broadcaster to the streaming server :)

I can also take an out put of of the toaster into the canapus dvd live encoder and make a nice mpeg2 file as well. Saves me alot of work in archiving the stream also QTB. will save file as a qt file too so i can upload that to a website. SO pretty easy workflow. Much better quality for same or lower bandwith.

Captain Obvious
05-08-2005, 11:54 AM
Judging by the tests of H.264 I've seen, it's really amazing. At the same bitrate, it's several times better (if quality can be measured...) than 3ivX, WMV, anything.

Martin Adams
05-08-2005, 04:56 PM
I unfortunately brought the Apple Production Suite just about two weeks before they announced the later version. Very annoying.

However, I'm a little annoyed with Apple and their QuickTime 7 upgrade path. I have QT 6.5 Pro supplied by the production suite. I tried a "Software Update" and it *tried* to update to QuickTime 7. This left me in a state where I can't run QuickTime as it says "QuickTime 7 required, please upgrade". I can't even install the free QuickTime 7 as it thinks its already installed. Apple pretty much leave you in this state:

a) You cannot run QuickTime 7 Player if you've registered QuickTime 6.5 Pro
b) You *can only use* QuickTime 6.5 if you want to keep the Pro features
c) You *cannot* run QuickTime 6.5 Pro and QuickTime 7 at the same time

Sounds like Apple are trying to force me into upgrading. Really, QuickTime and QuickTime Pro *should* be seperate programs. Especially as others can use QuickTime Player for free and I cannot :(

I'll probably upgrade when I have a use for it, until then, well done Apple.

I am really intrigued with the H.254. When I can afford it I really want to get a HD video camera, but I'll probably need a new Mac to go with it.

Captain Obvious
05-08-2005, 05:06 PM
Most people I've talked to have had no issues with upgrading to QT7, other than the fact that they've lost their Pro key. And it seems to have problems with AVIs that contain MP3s, or something... Try downloading the stand-alone installer, and remove the QuickTime receipt first (file:///Library/Receipts/). It might help.



I am really intrigued with the H.254.
H.264. ;) But you should be. Check THIS (http://www.apple.com/macosx/cnbc/) out. That's 640x480 video in okay quality, at 80kB/sec!

riki
05-08-2005, 06:42 PM
Okay got Tiger and QTPro up and running. That HD Batman trailer is amazing quality, downloads fast as well.

Martin Adams
05-09-2005, 01:27 PM
Hi just downloaded QT7 onto my Mac Mini and tried out a few of the sample H.264 videos on the QuickTime site. All I can say is WOW -> 1280 x 720 video size. The image quality is superb.

However, the playback seems a little juddery. QT says its playing back at around 15 fps. Has anyone had any better experiences on a Mac Mini with H.264?

allanBook
05-09-2005, 01:50 PM
However, the playback seems a little juddery. QT says its playing back at around 15 fps. Has anyone had any better experiences on a Mac Mini with H.264?

Unfortunately, that is to be expected according to Apple's own recommendations (http://http://apple.com/quicktime/hdgallery/recommendations.html) for proper H.264 playback.

Currently, none of Apple's PowerBooks or Mac minis (at the moment) can play any of the 1080 HD material at the full frame rate.

somnambulance
05-09-2005, 02:08 PM
The HD stuff doesnt really play on my G4, but on my G5 it's butter!

I downloaded a couple trailers off the site and burned them to DVD and holy chite was it good quality! Then I realized this has a really bad side to it too... PIRATES! Before the file sizes for full quality movies were enormus, so it was a waste of time to download them, and the smaller ones sucked in quality. Maybe some actor or actress will come out swinging like Lars did with Napster!

vinney57
05-09-2005, 08:24 PM
Just to point out that if you have FCP you can encode out of it to H264 without requiring the QT pro upgrade.

Captain Obvious
05-10-2005, 02:44 AM
Just to point out that if you have FCP you can encode out of it to H264 without requiring the QT pro upgrade.
This is true. QuickTime Pro is really just QuickTime Player Pro. Whether or not you have Pro will not effect any applications that use QuickTime, other than the Player. FCP, or iMovie for that matter, will not care.

riki
05-14-2005, 01:19 AM
I must be doing something wrong, when export I export a MOV or MP4 file with H264 it looks bloody horrible, all the colours are washed out, not a touch on Sorenson3. I've tried a number of diffeent settings but no joy. Does anyone know of any good tuts on using this format?

I got to say also it really slow to export and the results look like a dogs breakfast.

somnambulance
05-14-2005, 01:50 AM
I got to say also it really slow to export and the results look like a dogs breakfast.

You need a display above 286 colors. :D

You must be doing something wrong. What are the stats on you're system and what your trying to encode?

riki
05-14-2005, 02:04 AM
My System is G5 2x2 1.5G Tiger 10.4 QT Pro 7 :)

Here's some 'BEFORE' and 'AFTER' screenies, using the default setting when publishing a MOV file, except quality has been pushed up to best. The after pix looks dull in comparission. I've tried numerious other settings mp4 etc but it always comes out the same.

riki
05-14-2005, 02:07 AM
My other peev. It looks great in the preview window. But that's not an accurate represenation of what the end result looks like. It's not even close.

Captain Obvious
05-14-2005, 04:28 AM
Unfortunately, that is to be expected according to Apple's own recommendations (http://http://apple.com/quicktime/hdgallery/recommendations.html) for proper H.264 playback.

Currently, none of Apple's PowerBooks or Mac minis (at the moment) can play any of the 1080 HD material at the full frame rate.
Well, the PowerBooks do not even have a high enough resolution to view the entire 1080p, so it's not a huge problem, I'd say. ;)

allanBook
05-14-2005, 05:10 AM
Well, the PowerBooks do not even have a high enough resolution to view the entire 1080p, so it's not a huge problem, I'd say. ;)
You're right, but it's still so sad that playing the 720 HD material at the full frame rate is not possible as well.

On my Rev B PowerBook (1 GHz G4, 1.25 gb ram), I hover around only 12 fps on the Batman Begins 720p trailer :(.

Big Jay
05-14-2005, 06:07 AM
Riki,

Did you try setting the datarate manually. knock it up to 512kb or even 1500kb just to see if that would do anything.

Was this for a render coming out of lightwave?

That is a bit annoying. I'll have to look at some qt7 videos and see if they are washed out as well.

Captain Obvious
05-14-2005, 06:58 AM
It seems that the encoder needs to have settings for saturation and contrast.

riki
09-11-2005, 01:23 AM
No luck, if you change the data rate from automatic, the quality setting gets ghosted over and jumps down from Max to High. Also tried adjusting contrast and brightness when exporting but that gave some truely freaky results, a black screen turing shades of green and blue.

toby
09-11-2005, 02:18 AM
Yea that's what I get too. I think it's mostly for web, and pro compression guys always get better results than we can - the movie trailers don't seem washed out at all!

But check this out - I wanted to show that not only can you run QT 7 pro and 6.5 pro together, you can now open H264 files in 6.5.
Then I noticed that the same file in 6.5 isn't as washed out as it is in 7!?
:confused:

riki
09-11-2005, 02:29 AM
I'd love to know what the trick is to get that Movie trailer quality. The thing that annoys me is that the Apple website makes it sounds so "one click" easy.

toby
09-11-2005, 02:56 AM
My guess is that there's some seriously talented color-correcting and testing going on, and that it's different for every clip

Try looking at your export with 6.5...

riki
09-11-2005, 03:04 AM
I've just noticed, apple have updated their QT tutorials, there's a section now on H.264 which wasn't there last time I checked. I managed to get better results following this method. Still reading through the second half of it now.

http://www.apple.com/quicktime/player/tutorials.html

Martin Adams
09-11-2005, 06:29 AM
But check this out - I wanted to show that not only can you run QT 7 pro and 6.5 pro together, you can now open H264 files in 6.5.


How did you do that? Apple don't support two versions of QuickTime on a single computer. Do you know if it would be possible to run QuickTime 6.5 Pro and QuickTime 7 Free at the same time?

toby
09-11-2005, 01:49 PM
For a while I had 2 copies of QT 6.5, I just duplicated the app and renamed it 'Slicktime', then when I upgraded to 7, slicktime was still there. But I upgraded to Pro at the same time so I don't know if that helps you at all...

Johnny
09-11-2005, 03:18 PM
Has anyone had any better experiences on a Mac Mini with H.264?


I saved something out as H264 on my Mini (1.42Gghz, 1GB RAM) and it worked out fine..played beautifully.

Only thing is, saving as that codec is s-l-o-w, even on my G5s..so plan on that.

J

toby
09-11-2005, 08:11 PM
I've just noticed, apple have updated their QT tutorials, there's a section now on H.264 which wasn't there last time I checked. I managed to get better results following this method. Still reading through the second half of it now.

http://www.apple.com/quicktime/player/tutorials.html
That was helpful, I had no idea what 'frame reordering' was...

Had some really good luck with brightness and contrast, (a gamma adjustment would probably be better), I apply it while exporting to animation codec first, then output the H264 from that.

Less noise than Sorenson (the arc above the car in particular) and 35% smaller, 14mb compared to 24.

brunosgp71
09-13-2005, 10:23 PM
I usually do some tests with quicktime, but to get the best from these new codecs it's a good idea to render without any compression (could be a image sequence or a quicktime movie with no compression) and then compress the file choosing h264 or other codec (it's because these codecs do temporal compression, estimated on a range of frames and not in one frame only).
Anyybody with a new mac (from any dual G4 1.25 Ghz up) can see the quality of HD movies on apple website (HD gallery):
http://www.apple.com/quicktime/guide/hd/
It's amazing, hd resolution with a bit rate of 8 Mbps (like mpeg2) with incredible detail. And the same thing occurs with sound (using the aac encoder).
But you really need a fast mac to see the clips palying in full 24 fps.

riki
09-13-2005, 11:00 PM
I'm getting some okay results, the biggest area of problem seems to be with gradients, I'm still getting hash banding and muddy colours, even with extreme high setting (data rate to 8000+ and a keyframe at every frame), even that doesn't work.

From what I've read it's not a format problem with H.264 but rather Apples handling of it in Quicktime. It apparently takes a lot of tweeking to get good results and the QT interface is geared more for fast web based delivery rather than HD quality.

Yeah I know the HD gallery has some great examples, but I suspect that they where probably produced with the FCP Production suite rather than with QT. That's my guess, never used it myself, but they do have a pix of the FCP box on the same HD gallery page.

r

toby
09-13-2005, 11:45 PM
I don't think H264 is one of those codecs meant to give you super-high-quality video, much in the way that Animation or MPEG-2 can't give you small file-sizes with good quality (I've tried :P).

And gradients are the first thing to foul when compressed. They're fragile by nature, it takes a lot of colors to display them, and if they're not smooth they're ruined. You can even get banding with no compression!

riki
09-14-2005, 12:04 AM
The gradients look okay when using sorenson3. Also if you check the HD gallery the Serenity trailer, the gradients in the earths atmosphere look pretty clean.

An interesting read here, "Deconstructing H.264/AVC"
http://www.drunkenblog.com/drunkenblog-archives/000312.html

toby
09-14-2005, 12:21 AM
Yea, that's true.

I don't think any of us will be able to get things looking as good as those trailers. Like you said they more than likely don't just use QT Pro, and we're not pros either :foreheads

riki
09-16-2005, 11:53 PM
Here's a new test using the new Flash 8 Video Encoder (A stand alone APP). The file size is about 480k and using the On2 VP6 Codec, Looks clean to me :) Requires Flash Player 8

http://www.suture.net/motion/index.php?obj_id=video_01

Haven't tested the Sorenson Spark option yet.

Captain Obvious
09-17-2005, 05:14 AM
For a while I had 2 copies of QT 6.5, I just duplicated the app and renamed it 'Slicktime', then when I upgraded to 7, slicktime was still there. But I upgraded to Pro at the same time so I don't know if that helps you at all...
I might be wrong about this, but 'Slicktime' would still use the QT7 framework. QuickTime Player is basically just a front-end.

Matt
09-17-2005, 05:52 AM
If I try to encode H.264 from any video editing app it always crashes, I have to save the whole thing out as un-compressed and encode it within QTPro, anyone else have this?

I too can't get anywhere near the quality of the movie trailers on Apple's site that use H.264, love to know what they use / settings etc.

toby
09-17-2005, 03:03 PM
I might be wrong about this, but 'Slicktime' would still use the QT7 framework. QuickTime Player is basically just a front-end.
Oh fer sure, QT accesses the system just like AE or LW. That's why it's odd that H264 looks different in each one :confused: I think what Martin needs to do is get a copy of QT6.5, copy it to his hard drive without installing it.

It's nice having QT6.5 around because it still displays data rate in Bytes/sec. instead of kbits. Who wants to divide 5-digit numbers by 8 all day long? :thumbsdow We're not all freakin' web designers.

Anyway, I got good results by reducing brightness by 5, and increasing the contrast by 5 before exporting to H264.

marlo.steed
09-19-2005, 06:51 AM
I am no expert but I didn't have a problem with gradients when I exported to H.264. In fact the results are twice as good as MPG1 (twice the size, better quality) and seem better than Sorenson to me.

http://www.uleth.ca/edu/faculty/members/steed/mltmedia/movies/Fireworks.mov

toby
09-19-2005, 11:34 PM
I am no expert but I didn't have a problem with gradients when I exported to H.264. In fact the results are twice as good as MPG1 (twice the size, better quality) and seem better than Sorenson to me.

http://www.uleth.ca/edu/faculty/members/steed/mltmedia/movies/Fireworks.mov

It really depends on the video - Riki's has a lot of very gradual gradients, yours are pretty well disguised by details. Still really nice though.



Here's a new test using the new Flash 8 Video Encoder (A stand alone APP). The file size is about 480k and using the On2 VP6 Codec, Looks clean to me Requires Flash Player 8
http://www.suture.net/motion/index.php?obj_id=video_01
I can't get any video, I guess I need to upgrade to flash 8? I didn't get any error...

I think I may have a clue as to how they encode the trailers so well, it looks like they reduce the colors selectively, and the fewer overall colors in the image the more you can protect the gradients -

Nigel Baker
09-25-2005, 11:21 AM
Hello All,

This was posted today by Apple.
A link to H.264 tutorial.

http://www.apple.com/quicktime/tutorials/h264.html

Captain Obvious
09-25-2005, 11:58 AM
Oh fer sure, QT accesses the system just like AE or LW. That's why it's odd that H264 looks different in each one :confused: I think what Martin needs to do is get a copy of QT6.5, copy it to his hard drive without installing it.
One theory is that while "Slicktime" and QuickTime Player use the same exact decoding engine and such, it is the actual application itself that handles colour and gamma correction. QT7 uses OpenGL to draw everything (before that, it was QuickDraw, I think), that might be where the differences come from.

toby
09-25-2005, 01:15 PM
That makes sense, but are you sure they changed the video display? I'd expect a much bigger change. It seems to be just H264 that displays differently.

Captain Obvious
09-25-2005, 02:58 PM
If it's just H.264 that displays differently, then I'm all out of good theories for now.