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trentonia
04-27-2005, 12:33 PM
In the press release about the 64bit version of LightWave, they state that somewhere on Newtek.com, we can view the incredible, fabulous animation with a comparison of the 32bit version and the 64 bit version. Does anyone know how to get there. I've looked all through the site, the gallery, the press releases, the news, etc. Can't find it. Chuck?
trentonia

hrgiger
04-27-2005, 12:42 PM
http://www.microsoft.com/events/executives/billgates.mspx

Watch the On Demand Webcast under Bill Gates Keynote from WinHEC 2005 April 25, 2005 and go about 26 minutes in.

trentonia
04-27-2005, 01:48 PM
Thanks HR! I just checked it out and I can't wait.

object
04-27-2005, 04:38 PM
Thanks hrgiger, I was also interested in the video.
Very exciting news.

WizCraker
04-27-2005, 07:10 PM
if only they provided it in a downloaded version.

My ISP puts filters that prevents its users from downloading videos, music or any other type of format they see fit. usually anything ending in .mpg, .mov, .mp3, et cetra.

So if anyone is able to capture it and put it up for download it would be appreciated.

Karmacop
04-27-2005, 08:22 PM
Wow, what a police state. Do they do this for bandwidth or incase you're downloading something illegally? I'd try for a different ISP ...

hrgiger
04-27-2005, 08:33 PM
Yeah, I second that Karma. Sounds like it's time for a new ISP. And I thought AOL was facist.

WizCraker
04-28-2005, 12:51 AM
Wow, what a police state. Do they do this for bandwidth or incase you're downloading something illegally? I'd try for a different ISP ...

Can't switch only one that is offered.

And they do it for both reasons. They don't want to get caught up in the legal battles if a user gets caught downloading illegal stuff and they don't want their users sucking down their bandwidth.

I guess it is a trade to get highspeed for only $7 a month, of course it is the only option available.

wacom
04-28-2005, 01:20 AM
Hmm...so what is the big deal here for me? 'til I have 32GB I'll be doing render passes even with 64bits. Besides- if render passes let you go further at 32bits than could be done otherwise...what about render passes at 64bit.

I'm excited about 64bit OSs, but this left me high and dry even though it was underwater! :eek:

js33
04-28-2005, 02:57 AM
Can't switch only one that is offered.

And they do it for both reasons. They don't want to get caught up in the legal battles if a user gets caught downloading illegal stuff and they don't want their users sucking down their bandwidth.

I guess it is a trade to get highspeed for only $7 a month, of course it is the only option available.

If you can't download anything then it's not even worth $7 a month. :mad:
I would really be pissed off if I couldn't download anything. But then again Comcast charges about $50 a month for 4Mb broadband.

Cheers,
JS

robpowers3d
04-28-2005, 12:55 PM
Hmm...so what is the big deal here for me? 'til I have 32GB I'll be doing render passes even with 64bits. Besides- if render passes let you go further at 32bits than could be done otherwise...what about render passes at 64bit.

I'm excited about 64bit OSs, but this left me high and dry even though it was underwater! :eek:


Wacom,

It's really about the shift that is going to happen because the limitations of 4 GB of ram have been removed and the speed increases when using 64 bit optimized software on a 64 bit os. As the demand grows Ram prices will reduce and relatively soon we will be working with hundreds of GB of ram. Render passes won't necessarily go away they will just be that much more complex which will allow our work to be that much more detailed with less render passes.

Chuck
04-29-2005, 10:28 AM
The animations and stills are now linked in the press release:

NewTek Produces First 64-bit Animation for Microsoft WinHEC Keynote (http://www.newtek.com/news/releases/04-25-05a.html)

Exception
04-29-2005, 01:44 PM
What nonsense is that presentation?
Showing a flat shade 32 bit versus a textured openGL 64 bit and saying 32 bit cannot do this?! What kind of nonsense is that?

Really, its all a bit muddy this presentation... sure it'll be faster, and you have more memory access, but couldnt they show that in some proper comparison? Like, numbers?
This is really some strange propaganda.

hrgiger
04-29-2005, 01:48 PM
Some here are not really paying that much attention...

Lamont
04-29-2005, 02:04 PM
I think the presentation was skewed towards the 64bit. What I would like to see is side by side of the same scene rendered. Now if those were procedural textures in that scene, it is what everyone was asking for, and that's cool in itself.

Either way, I am buying a new mobo/processor and 4 more gigs of ram when LW64 bit comes out.

Lamont
04-29-2005, 02:09 PM
If we can get scene details that would be epic.

Chuck
04-29-2005, 02:28 PM
We're working on a profile of Rob's work on Aliens of the Deep and this project, and one of the things I've asked about is the scene details. I do know that in the 32-bit system he could only load and animate 14 of the creatures, and on the 64-bit system with 32GB RAM, he was able to load and animate about one hundred of the creatures.

I'm puzzled about the display options as well. Maybe with that heavy a scene he shut some options off for improved interactivity, and the Microsoft presenter misunderstood that information or didn't get it across properly in the presentation.

Lamont
04-29-2005, 02:41 PM
I'm puzzled about the display options as well. Maybe with that heavy a scene he shut some options off for improved interactivity, and the Microsoft presenter misunderstood that information or didn't get it across properly in the presentation.I was thinking that too. You should have went ;). Or I can go next time :D.

robpowers3d
04-29-2005, 03:06 PM
Actually the intent was to show how we typically work with scenes that have complex geometry in a real world situation. Yes you can turn on every OpenGL setting in LightWave but your performance slows to a crawl on 32-bit and very little work would get done. So, the question wasn't "is it possible to turn on every openGL setting" but "what is reasonable" while still maintaining some interactivity. It really depends on the complexity of the scenes. I emphasized that point several times and tried to explain the difference as clearly as possible but, I wasn't directly making the presentation so much of that was filtered through someone with less familiarity with LightWave.

I am confident that if you visited any working studio using LightWave you wouldn't currently find them turning on all the openGL settings that may be available. They need to actually get shots done. Thus the limitations.





What nonsense is that presentation?
Showing a flat shade 32 bit versus a textured openGL 64 bit and saying 32 bit cannot do this?! What kind of nonsense is that?

Really, its all a bit muddy this presentation... sure it'll be faster, and you have more memory access, but couldnt they show that in some proper comparison? Like, numbers?
This is really some strange propaganda.

Exception
04-29-2005, 04:10 PM
I am confident that if you visited any working studio using LightWave you wouldn't currently find them turning on all the openGL settings that may be available. They need to actually get shots done. Thus the limitations.

Well um, we do here in the studio...
We work on architecture. I suppose that's not relevant then? Not everyone is animating seacreatures of the abyss :)

The OpenGL interface of Lightwave is a tad slow, but with all options turned on we usually get away with um, all models we work on. I also find this emphasis a bit strange, when LW's OpenGL implementation isnt that great, and certainly not advanced, why capitalize on the differences in performance on a 64 bit system if it isn't top notch in the first place?

I guess we're all just wondering what it would matter with our current systems and hardware. There's no sane way any studio now is going to have 32GB workstations at this time, maybe in 5 years. 2GB is a luxury still.

Lightwave is fast enough in the workflow as it is, everyone is really anxious to hear about renderspeed improvements. So am I.

robpowers3d
04-29-2005, 06:11 PM
This particular example was dealing with how the 64 bit software and hardware advancements would affect the entertainment industry specifically. That was the entire premise of the presentation. You would be a better judge of how relevant or not it is to the architecture field as I don't work in that area.

I should have qualified "studio" by "film and television studio." Again the interactivity is directly related to the complexity of the geometry in the scene. Please don't misunderstand that companies who work with lower overhead scenes are "less relevant."

These advancements are great for anyone using LightWave. It allows us to push the limit that much further. But you are by no means required to work with more complex scenes.

I'll agree that 32 GB of ram is pricey at the moment but now that the demand will be going up the prices should fall in line as usual with the progress of new technology. Remember how expensive HD LCD's were when they first appeared? The great news is that the 4GB limit is a thing of the past.

Also, the renderspeed improvements are always important but beyond that the 64 bit scene couldn't even be loaded on a 32-bit machine. This example was NOT a render speed benchmark scene. It was a level of detail / complexity example. Which also translates to overall time savings when compositing layers can be reduced and more can be done in camera.





Well um, we do here in the studio...
We work on architecture. I suppose that's not relevant then? Not everyone is animating seacreatures of the abyss :)

The OpenGL interface of Lightwave is a tad slow, but with all options turned on we usually get away with um, all models we work on. I also find this emphasis a bit strange, when LW's OpenGL implementation isnt that great, and certainly not advanced, why capitalize on the differences in performance on a 64 bit system if it isn't top notch in the first place?

I guess we're all just wondering what it would matter with our current systems and hardware. There's no sane way any studio now is going to have 32GB workstations at this time, maybe in 5 years. 2GB is a luxury still.

Lightwave is fast enough in the workflow as it is, everyone is really anxious to hear about renderspeed improvements. So am I.

jorbedo
04-29-2005, 11:33 PM
Hi Exception,

I totally agree with you, but this have a name, MARKETING practices, nonsense, nothing new, just pure BS, don't get me wrong, fantastic job from Mr. powers.

They need an excuse to post something on NT site, 64 bit power, Ja!, why not trying to render rqadiosity, Hypervoxels, volumteric lights, but FOG? and procedural textures?.

This is the best example of what not to show, or choosing exactly what they want to show and create a buying atmosphere, when the reality can be other.

How many people will render a one pass scene for a movie or broadcast presentation?. Nobody, for your home videos, ok. testures?, yeah, mud textures looked very detailed.

It's tyipical from NT trying to be ahead of the competiton, ahead of what, how to know how porting code?, yeah sure, now I know that they are the best, but bringing a fresh, faster, usable app?, not sure (I'm still praying).

NEWTEK keep focused, don waste resources on more makeups, do something usefull, or do you think that the people will buy your next release?, don't think so.

Lamont
04-30-2005, 12:13 AM
I would say that the presentation was not aimed at us (end users, people who actually use LW). This was for people who are going to adopt the 64bit technology for their own apps. They want to see what other people have done, and where they are going with the 64 bit platform.

NewTek will make a demo to us sometime soon, I know it. This really wasn't made for us. NewTek knows what we want to see: benchmarks, added features.. ect, and we'll get them in due time.

hrgiger
04-30-2005, 01:29 AM
Yeah, memory is a little expensive. I was just pricing out a system at Dell and adding 8GB of RAM would of added $14,000 to my order. I'd say that's a little excessive. Of course, I would never buy additional memory through Dell, I can get it cheaper elsewhere but it would still be buku expensive at todays prices.


I thought that presentation was great Rob and thought it was a good example of what could be done on the 64 bit platform.

Librarian
04-30-2005, 05:22 AM
Talking about beeing the first.
Take the following with a grain of salt.
The animation was impressive.
But...itīs doesnīt matter who first announced a 64 bit Version or shown a 64bit application in action. Thatīs of no practical importance. Absolutely not.

What really matters is who brings up a stable, usable and modern 64bit version when 64bit OS are available. And thatīs vapourware for the normal user right now.

Everyone of the big boys will have a 64bit version when 64bit OS are official available. Because not everyone hasnīt shown it doesnīt mean theyīre not working on it.
Everyone is first and the importance is on the application again, not who announced it first.

And what Iīve seen, LW seems to be the same old dinosaur in a 64bit environment.
As much as I appreciate the work and especially that 64bit version will be free for registrated users (very cool move :) ), it will not be enough to convince potential customers.

Please keep that in mind and donīt rely to much on 64bit speed when major boosts could be already done in 32bit . Not everyone can afford huge amounts of ram and hardware that costs thousands and take full advantage of it.
The focus should be optimization, independent of 64bit versions.
64bit not as a compensation for things that should be better in 32bit.

It seems to me that NT hardly tries to find anything to be in the forefront, even though it doesnīt matter the slightest who announced it first.
As Jorbedo mentioned


It's tyipical from NT trying to be ahead of the competiton, ahead of what, how to know how porting code?
The typical marketing hype :cool:

Chuck
04-30-2005, 08:00 AM
Talking about beeing the first.
Take the following with a grain of salt.
The animation was impressive.
But...itīs doesnīt matter who first announced a 64 bit Version or shown a 64bit application in action. Thatīs of no practical importance. Absolutely not.

What really matters is who brings up a stable, usable and modern 64bit version when 64bit OS are available. And thatīs vapourware for the normal user right now.

Everyone of the big boys will have a 64bit version when 64bit OS are official available. Because not everyone hasnīt shown it doesnīt mean theyīre not working on it.
Everyone is first and the importance is on the application again, not who announced it first.

And what Iīve seen, LW seems to be the same old dinosaur in a 64bit environment.
As much as I appreciate the work and especially that 64bit version will be free for registrated users (very cool move :) ), it will not be enough to convince potential customers.

Please keep that in mind and donīt rely to much on 64bit speed when major boosts could be already done in 32bit . Not everyone can afford huge amounts of ram and hardware that costs thousands and take full advantage of it.
The focus should be optimization, independent of 64bit versions.
64bit not as a compensation for things that should be better in 32bit.

It seems to me that NT hardly tries to find anything to be in the forefront, even though it doesnīt matter the slightest who announced it first.
As Jorbedo mentioned

The typical marketing hype :cool:


The fact is that there are customers that this level of capability is very important for, and we serve them, just as we serve you. The issues you and Jorbedo are concerned about are most certainly being addressed - the new team is issuing regular updates with improved features and performance and an aggressive schedule of maintenance fixes. It should be obvious to anyone that indeed the focus is exactly and precisely on optimization independent of the bit-depth of the version, and it's a shame that for some people something we have communicated regularly and with both words and with the concrete actions of regular updates gets lost for them if we take a moment to communicate anything else.

I've said before and will say again now - there is no good news that someone won't find an excuse for criticism and complaint about, even if it's just that it benefits someone else directly and not them. It would really be wonderful if good news could just be let be good news, at least now and then. The fact of the matter is that neither the efforts toward producing this project nor the publication of the press release had any impact whatsoever that would stilt the development efforts you want for this product in the version you currently have, and it has every chance of being an exceptionally good publicity opportunity given the involvement of a major partner.

Marketing efforts are important, and yes, a company can and should make use of every opportunity to get positive news out about its products. Those who truly are interested in seeing those products improved for their benefit, might want to consider whether publicly flogging those marketing efforts is actually likely to promote such improvement, or hinder it.

Exception
04-30-2005, 08:04 AM
I guess the correct answer to all these postings of complaining users on the fallacy of that presentation is as follows:

Look guys, Newtek managed to get a 5 minute presentation with their product in a Microdoft Windows Product Release convention. that is Millions upon millions of people who saw the name NewTek, and Lightwave and who saw you can make creatures of the Abyss with it and that it aparently is advanced because they have a 64 bit application. Wow.
Now, perhaps it will be easier for some people to convince their cigar smoking bosses to use Lightwave over another package in the office. This would mean larger revenue for Newtek, enabling them to put more resources into developing Lightwave.

This, I find very good news, and I'm happy to see that Newtek is thinking about these marketing ploys. this presentation could very well have been worth the time and money spent on making a 64 bit version of Lightwave that actually most of us really don't care about. But perhaps we should care about the consequences of the presentation, not its contents.

The only 'if' in this story is whether Newtek finally decides to actually start shoving bits around to bring Lightwave up to par with the competition, and ahead of it if possible. All marketing talk of whoever aside, there are areas of Lightwave that are severely lacking.

The new update policy is great. Never before have I felt that user issues, predominantly bugs, were addressed, and wanted features are worked on. The new communication towards the user policy is therefore great. It is very clear Newteks marketing department was kicked into the twenty first century, and doing an astoundign job, with all the interesting competitive upgrades, advertisements and things like this presentation.
But that doesn't mean its all good. There are a lot of us who really feel new features are only important when old ones are fixed. New features are great for marketing, yes, but if old sores arn;t fixed, new features will not make existing users any happier. By this I list a collection of issues that have been washing over this forum and all other places for years now, that do not seem to be resolved in the near future, but seem to be paramount to almost the entire user base:

- Render Speed.
Uniquely number one up there in Lightwave problem land. Radiosity topping it out.
- Rigging is archaic.
I dont even know how to rig, but everyone who does, seems pretty convinced.
- Stability
Still a huge problem, but we are actually noticing this is being worked on.
- Broken features
PDF Export, Photoshop FLX plugin, Surface Baker, Import & Export plugins, etc. Things that should but do not work.

And the rest of the mumbo jumbo which is repeatedly being asked for, and seemingly, ignored.
But, most importantly: If this presentation will bring in funds to allow the above issues to be addressed more effectively, I can only cheer everyone on and say: I don't care what kind of nonsenical things are being said on what presentation, or how many people are working on a version of Lightwave that will run upside down, on the moon or on the PDA of a Seacreature, as long as it helps the fixed staff that works on Lightwave to address the above issues and the features that will truly help it to excel. For us, the real users.

Good luck Newtek, and congratualtions on the presentation!

hrgiger
04-30-2005, 09:34 AM
It's just unbelievable.

People complain no matter what you give them. Lightwave is being a groundbreaker by being the first app to have a 64-bit version. And how much is that again? Oh yeah, it's free.

As far as I know, they're also the first to be optimized to take advantage of multi-core processors. And how much is that going to be for us? Oh yeah, it's free.

Jesus, it's like throwing a starving man a sandwich and having him complain it's on wheat bread, and not white...

Librarian
04-30-2005, 11:07 AM
But, most importantly: If this presentation will bring in funds to allow the above issues to be addressed more effectively, I can only cheer everyone on and say: I don't care what kind of nonsenical things are being said on what presentation, or how many people are working on a version of Lightwave that will run upside down, on the moon or on the PDA of a Seacreature, as long as it helps the fixed staff that works on Lightwave to address the above issues and the features that will truly help it to excel. For us, the real users.

Good luck Newtek, and congratualtions on the presentation!
Couldnīt agree more. Thatīs the quintessence of what Iīve tried to say :p
I care about the end product, nothing else.
Well, letīs see and compare when itīs done :)

@hrgiger
You donīt need to be sarcastic.
If thereīre customers that are not 100% satisfied with the product, is that heresy ?
That has nothing to do with "people complain no matter what you do" (thatīs the case with everthing and everywhere).
Yes they do complain. But also appreciate the work and effort NT has done (otherwise they wouldnīt care about or use it).
Do I need to be committed to something just because everyone else is?
I donīt think so. I want to to be true to myself.
Thereīs a neutral fraction. Believe it or not.

Everyone has an opinion.
We should learn to respect each otherīs, even though you disagree.

@Chuck
I hope I havenīt given a wrong impression. This was no attack, and I admire your patience explaining the same things over and over again ;) .
Take it with a grain of salt :cool:

hrgiger
04-30-2005, 12:11 PM
Well I think, Librarian, the point that Chuck was trying to make was that Newtek is making advances in all areas of the software but each update can't address everyone's needs. But everytime Newtek puts out an update, you can't just simply call Lightwave a "dinosaur" just because it doesn't have the updates you think it should. Chuck was also saying that why can't good news just be good news? But some people hear "Lightwave gets this" and their automatic response is "yes, but it doesn't have this, this, and this....". We do have features request forums after all.

dgon64
04-30-2005, 12:26 PM
Newtek's reach must exceed it's grasp-or what's an update for? Thumbs up guys-keep it up. Being a user since v.5, it's remarkable how far LW has progressed.
Still the best value on the market. Just added another seat just for this eventuality (at you know what great price) and I know there'll be growing pains. Newtek will do its best to fix this with the more money it will have made from this marketing coup ( I'm sure the competiton was maybe a little jealous )-so since there's more to do-might as well jump in. In the end, that's the only way to get things to work-start working on it and keep working on it till you've got it right. Hmmm-AMD64 or P64-sorry that's another thread-Congrats everyone at Newtek! Just a regular user.

robpowers3d
04-30-2005, 02:42 PM
Your post isn't exactly clear for me but I just wanted to mention that the animation did consist of radiosity, hypervoxels, volumetric lights, ray traced refraction, ray traced reflections, ray traced transparency (all with multi-layered creatures on top of creatures), high resolution 4K image textures, along with the fog and procedural textures. Is that what you were talking about?





They need an excuse to post something on NT site, 64 bit power, Ja!, why not trying to render rqadiosity, Hypervoxels, volumteric lights, but FOG? and procedural textures?.

jorbedo
05-01-2005, 09:53 PM
Now we're talkin Robopowers, that is the kind the info that you can expect to have to evaluate the effort, radiosity, HV's, that is a lot to say about your render times, and rendering to HDTv or film resolutions? (Is that correct?), men that is a lot of power!.


For HRgiger:
You have to take a look on the big picture, I'm not complianing about not having the perfect application.

Other than the money investment, all of us had invested a lot of time trying to learn and master this awesome app, I love my LW, but I can't keep trying to get jobs that I can produce in other applications faster and sometimes with more control, I hate LW workarounds.

WE HAD BEEN WORKING WITH ALMOST THE SAME RENDER ENGINE SINCE LW on the PC.

Do you want LW9 with the same core technology?, do you still work on your Amiga 500? I don't think so, All of us wants to work faster and with more control over the whole workflow, and NT solutions is not giving us any of this right know, sorry not for the rest of us that are not into character animation.

I keep posting because I do really care what is gonna happen with the next LW version, I recon that NT is having a big change on his philosophy and I like what is shaping at NT, but is not enough, they had been loosing ground against Maya, max even cinema 4D (On our channel they switched from Lightwave to Maxon).

NEWTEK needs to amaze the whole community with something really, really fast and with a lot of gadgets, why they don't buy Worley?, the addition of the electric image guys for me is one of the best press releasses from NT on years, this guys knows how to do a killer render engine.

Sorry guys if I sounded acid, but that is what I feel about having to work with Maya and Max and putting away LW because is not up to date.

Thank you Chuck for taking care of this community, robopowers, wonderfull job, and HRgiger, keep posting, we need a lot of mirrors to see where we are wrong.

hazmat777
05-02-2005, 03:21 AM
Sometimes it seems strange to me.

If another app had been the one to be featured with this presentation IN EXACTLY THE SAME WAY, I'm guessing a lot of the critics here would be saying, "Why can't LightWave do that!?"

NewTek just did it... :rolleyes:

hazmat777
05-02-2005, 03:32 AM
It was a calendar day for the entire industry, no doubt about it... :D

hrgiger
05-02-2005, 04:55 AM
For HRgiger:
You have to take a look on the big picture, I'm not complianing about not having the perfect application.



I AM looking at the big picture, which is exactly why I'm not complaining.

Pay attention. Newtek has been reworking the core of Lightwave but they've been doing it in progressive steps as Chuck has mentioned numerous times. If you're expecting a total re-write all at once, you're probably going to be disappointed.

If you can get something done faster in another app, then that's what you should use. Don't blame Newtek for that. Although, others would disagree with you on how fast they can get something done in Lightwave and on another app. It's never going to be the best solution for everything but it's certainly the best solution for some people for some projects. Lightwave costs $1500, you just can't expect it to be better then every other app out there on all fronts.

And no, it's not the same rendering engine that it was on earlier pc versions. Version 6 brought quite a few new additions such as radiosity and HDRI, new caustics (I believe in 7), new filter options in 8.2, and now new Vector blur routines in 8.3 and probably a lot else that I'm leaving out. Not to mention Newtek has recently expanded with SDK with "hooks" that will allow third party plug-ins to access volumetric information which now leaves the ball in F-Primes court to add volumetric rendering. On top of that, they have just made Jay Roth head of the 3D project division at Newtek and as I understand it, Jay Roth helped make Electric Image one of the fastest renderers in the industry. How much of a hand in that he had I don't know, but I would take it as a good sign that Newtek is adding new people to it's roster.

Newtek has also made good on the promise for more frequent updates which has brought some much needed changes to the program. For me, the biggest has been eliminating texture stretching on subpatch objects.

So exactly what is the basis for your complaints? Yes, you keep posting because you want to see Lightwave move ahead, but you seem to be posting in the wrong forum. The feature requests forum exists for this reason. This thread is about the new advancement of the 64-bit platform, not a point/counter point thread. As Chuck has said, why can't good news just be good news?

Nemoid
05-02-2005, 06:03 AM
while i agre with some jorbedo's points because i'd want to se lw advance rapidly, i also think that Nt dev team took the right decision to give lw a smooth evolution in time.
its not possible to rewrite completely an app without some years of work, and so this could block apparently lw evolution to customers eyes. a paralel development pipeline could be possible, but probably it needs more resources than what Nt has currently , so, its better to put all the dev team into the progressive development of one app, addressing its core in time and therefore allowing themselves to add in the near future all things missing, and to address current problems they can find at different levels.

also more resounces are in now, and other new leading programers too, so the evolution should become faster in near future.

NT team is this now and things are good, so i'm happy with Lw dev like it is .