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Wade
04-22-2005, 05:08 PM
Clip maps applied and saved with the object file.

please


Wade :D ]

toma
04-25-2005, 12:47 AM
please here too !! I want to be able to replace clipped objects in a scene without having to edit each one's clip map… (when replacing low res tree with high res ones)

thomas

bjornkn
04-25-2005, 03:26 AM
Me too!
I never understood why it's not part of the surface in the first place?

It is very annoying having to go through all those extra steps just to get a simple billboard from an alpha mapped texture.

Panikos
04-25-2005, 08:04 AM
1. Go to Object Properties
2. Select Clip Map
3. Select Copy
4. Close ClipMap
5 Close Object Properties

6. Open Surface Editor
7. Select a surface that belong to the Clip Object
7. Add a texture to the Translucency (rarely used)
8. Paste Clip Texture Settings
9. Disable the texture
10. Save Object
11. Clear Scene

12. Load new scene
13. Load Clip Object
14. Retriece Clip settings from the Translucent Texture
15. Voila !

bjornkn
04-25-2005, 08:26 AM
I'm not quite sure if you wanted to show how easy it is, or how many steps it takes?
15 steps to do a procedure which should have been one-step is 14 too many IMO..

Besides, I often have "multi-object" objects with multiple alpha-mapped textures. I haven't tried clip-mapping them, but I would think that it wouldn't be possible?
Instead I have made a clone/instance of the 32bit image and used the alpha channel as transparency map.

Panikos
04-25-2005, 10:12 AM
I described the procedure in many steps to make it clear. I can elaborate this into 3 pages of txt if this helps you to understand.

If you understand how it works, the steps can be described in the phrase
"Copy-Paste the Clip map setting to a disabled texture, this stores the clip information with the object"

As simple as that

Wade
04-25-2005, 10:50 AM
Will NOT work for me –

as a clip map upfront discounts what needs to be rendered – beautifully!

If I mess with transparent settings or translucent settings then those things have to be calculated in the scene. BIG HIT IN RENDER TIMES!!!!! -

AS WELL killing some effects like volumetric lighting as volumetric will not shine through a translucent object, but will a clip mapped one.!!!!!

Thanks for the effort to help but I really want to be able to save clip maps with my object on a per-layer or surface basis PLEASE.


Pretty please with high fructose corn sugar on top – no make that real cane sugar if you make this happen.

Wade :) :) :cool:

Panikos
04-25-2005, 11:02 AM
:D :) ;) :rolleyes:

Wade
04-25-2005, 12:03 PM
Panikos -

I will give you method a try and see if perhaps it will work. A wonderful thing it would be indeed. :)

Wade


OK so what you are saying is to simply store the information in the Translucent channel and copy and past back into clip channel? If so - it's no easier to do than simply reapplying the clip map to each object.

But perhaps a useful idea for something.

Am I missing something? I do sometimes over look the obvious. ;)

Wade
04-25-2005, 12:16 PM
I request that Clip be maps applied to and saved with the object file.

From within Layout is fine.

please

Panikos
04-25-2005, 12:47 PM
OK so what you are saying is to simply store the information in the Translucent channel and copy and paste back into clip channel? If so it's no then is no easier to do than simply reapplying the clip map to each object.


Exactly !
You may copy it to any surface channel.
The texturing is disabled, so it wont make any difference in your rendering,
but you have a temporary storage for your clipmap settings.

If you have 30 clip objects it will require patience.
More than 30 its a pain :eek:

bjornkn
04-25-2005, 11:56 PM
Exactly - more than 30 is a pain!
Nice workaround by using an unused channel (like translucency) as a clipboard for storing clip maps though :)
But it is still a workaround...
IMO it would be much better if you could just apply the clip map from the surfacing panel, and if you could just use an alpha channel directly for that purpose, isntead of using a separate file or an instance/clone. It would save me tons of time in some of my projects.

I am migrating from trueSpace, which I've been using since tS1, to LW, and that's why I find the clip mapping so bad in LW.
For comparison I wanted to render a tS scene which was modelled and textured in SketchUp. Not many polys, but lots of rather big textures (200+ with many of them more than 1kx1k), of which around 100 of them were 32bit PNG with alpha map. This was a panorama virtual exhibition with lots of objects and documents rather than just rectangular pictures on the wall. Some of them were modelled, but most of them were just clip or transparency mapped. Some of them were partly covered by plexi disks, which forced me to use various alpha grey levels instead of pure clipping masks, to simulate semi transparency and get a slight shadow on the wall.
This worked fine and quick in tS, but when I started converting all those alpha textures in LW I got so fed up after a while (actually a couple of days!) that I never bothered to finish the LW scene (it was already accepted by the client in its tS form).
Another problem with the LW approach is that you have to make an instance of the texture to use only the alpha channel for clipping. When you have a couple of hundred textures, most of them named with a long number, it's no fun trying to find the right bitmap in the LW dropdown list which is not sorted alphabetically

The parts that I did manage to finish rendered really, really slow in LW compared to in tS, probably because LW doesn't like transparency mapping very much? In tS there is no specific clip mapping, but it is very much faster to apply "clip mapping" there, using the included alpha channel directly. It also has the same problem as LW with transparency mapping not working with volumetrics and DOF though.

toma
04-26-2005, 12:54 AM
Exactly - more than 30 is a pain!
Nice workaround by using an unused channel (like translucency) as a clipboard for storing clip maps though :)
But it is still a workaround...

:D very true ! this is a painfull workaround, be ready for a few hours of borying copying'n'pasting when you'll have to replace a few dozen or hundreds…

BTW, if you want to apply the clip map to specific surfaces only (like leaves in a tree) you have to find other workaround (different uv map for the leaves, alpha gradient based on weight map etc)


IMO it would be much better if you could just apply the clip map from the surfacing panel, and if you could just use an alpha channel directly for that purpose, isntead of using a separate file or an instance/clone. It would save me tons of time in some of my projects.

would be nice ! imo it would be more efficient to chose if the image's embeded alpha is ignored/used/used-only in each channel of the material editor rather than in the image editor wich force you to instance those images to extract the alpha channel. I don't know if this fonction is stable now, but in the LW6.0 days image instances were not so robust and broke a few scene. now I prefer to use a separated file for the alpha. Of course I would be glad if it worked, but anyway I would like to control the image's alpha in the material editor…


Some of them were partly covered by plexi disks, which forced me to use various alpha grey levels instead of pure clipping masks, to simulate semi transparency and get a slight shadow on the wall.

a clip map is treated as 1bit disolve map, the clipped polygon will be either 100% opaque or 100% disolved. this is why it so fast compared with transparency : a clipped polygon is just ignored by the renderer…

and this is why we want a fast way to set cilp maps, clip mapping is here for speed, so please NT, make it fast to set up !

thomas.

bjornkn
04-26-2005, 04:40 AM
Some ideas on how this could be implemented is:

In the Image editor dialog:
In the Alpha channel dropdown we could have some extra choices:
Use alpha overlay (same as Alpha enabled works now)
Use alpha (automatically applying the alpha in the transparency channel, or jus like itworks now, only without the "background" visible?)
Use alpha as clip map (now only available per object)

And then an InvertAlpha chkbox, (or as extra choices in the dropdown?)
There could also be a slider for clip threshold?

The preview should (of course) update in realtime.

In the texture editor:
Below the Image drop down there could be a new dropdown (plenty of room in those big panels..) for Clip map,
with the choices
Alpha.
Inverted alpha.

And in the Surface editor there could be a new setting for clip, below translucency (plenty of room here too..) :
Here it would be possible to use separate files for clipping, procedurals and gradients?

I have not spent a lot of time thinking about this design. Maybe there's too much redundancy? I guess the per object clipping is useful in some situations too, particularly for backwards compatibility with old scenes,so I don't think it should be removed.

The main thing is that clip mapping should definitely be part of the surface/texture.

Wade
04-26-2005, 09:48 AM
Multiple clip maps per object PLEASE!! :)

Could be applied with UV maps, and, or on a per surface basis.

And let us save this info with object file PLEASE!! :)


Wade PLEASE!! :) :o

Johnsongraphix
04-28-2005, 12:07 PM
Wade,
Thanks for your response to my thread in the architectural forum and directing me to this discussion. This might seem pointless for anyone else, unless you're like me, and want to retain a library of clip mapped objects so that you could easily load 30-40 or whatever amount of trees, bushes, and flower beds to a scene. Loading each one, creating instances, then applying clip maps, using alpha supported images, is too tedious and NEEDS TO BE SIMPLIFIED! Transparent channels are not the answer for sure. I use to do this until i realized its limitations and how much render processing it took.

Newtek,
The incorporation of this idea would make life so much easier for me. Please consider this idea. I firmly continue to convince my company that this is the best quality solution for architectural renderings and animation. Help me stay secure with this thought.
Thanks,
Ryan

toma
04-29-2005, 02:42 AM
Multiple clip maps per object PLEASE!! :)

Could be applied with UV maps, and, or on a per surface basis.
Wade PLEASE!! :) :o


…you can apply multiple clip maps on a object, but it's another LW workaround :

the best way (imo) is to use weight maps : you have to create a weight map for each group of clip map and then in layout use those weight maps as input for gradients in alpha mode that you place above the actual clip map for those group of polygons.

it isn't straifoward, but it works and you won't have to use separate layers for each "clip group" :

gradient / alpha mode / input : weight group a
clip a
gradient / alpha mode / input : weight group b
clip b



hope it helps…

thomas.

bjornkn
04-29-2005, 04:01 AM
I agree that it shows the flexibility of LW, but I agree even more on that it isn't exactly straightforward...

With clipmapping added to surfaces it would take a fraction of the time, and it could all be done in Modeler.

I aired my frustrations on this topic on the lw3d mailing list when I first started using LW last fall, but unfortunately didn't get much support on it.
As a newbie I was thinking that there had to be a better way in LW than fiddling with instances of bitmaps and clipmapping in Layout, but that I just hadn't found it. I was quite surprised when I found out that there was really no quick way to do it. And even more surpised when nobody seemed to care, even though it apparently have been like that for years. In trueSpace I was using such alpha techniques all the time, and I really missed them in LW...

Wade
04-29-2005, 11:13 AM
Well I like the way clip maps work at the moment. I usually apply them based on a UV map... - BUT AND AND HOWEVER -

The problem I have is - that I can have only one Map & must reapply the next time I use the object.

For me it would be nice to be able to save applied map(S) with object file. From layout is fine.

I would make life easier it would give me additional control, and options for how I get the Job done.

Two request in one - multiple clip maps, and save with Object file.


Please - it is a feature I request, and that is what we are all about here in this LW thread.

Wade
04-29-2005, 11:23 AM
http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?t=14130&highlight=clip

Take a look at the plant material in this post - go down the page some - Well each and every plant which I made has one clip map, used over and over based on a UV map used over and over. Now I have been able to get a lot of variation with this method. Which I think makes the foliage look acceptable... But give me more than one clip map per object and watch out. Let me save those clip maps with object and you have deepened out friendship. :D

Wade
04-29-2005, 11:29 AM
http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?t=1203&highlight=clip

Request dates back 2 years 2 months!!! Must be on the verge of compleation ready to go with 8.3 - adn that on the verge of release! :p ;) :cool: :) :eek:

other clip map stuff
http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?t=4662&highlight=clip

Pavlov
04-29-2005, 06:31 PM
1. Go to Object Properties
2. Select Clip Map
(cut)


Panikos,
that's exactly what i do but it's not enough.
I have hundred of mapped planes for vegetation, people and viz stuff, and unless i save a scene for each of them, everytime i start a new project i need to load the obj, copy transp texture and paste it to Clip. I work on large projects ans often i need to load a lot (100 +) clips in a scene... you know that this workflow is a real time waste.
I asked for surface based clipmapping since 6.0, and i keep asking.
Imho, it's a must for viz people.

Paolo Zambrini

Wade
04-29-2005, 06:41 PM
Often I load tree, bush, or flowering shrub, apply clip then clone and move around, but on an occasion I load a tree, clone, move clones... then render adn @#[email protected]# forgot to aplly the clip map - then I have to go and add Clip map to each and every one. :o

Feature Request 1 - save clip map file object file
Feature Request 2- let us use more than one clip map per object - maybe based on UVmaps or surface... :D :D

Pavlov
04-30-2005, 01:35 AM
Feature Request 2- let us use more than one clip map per object - maybe based on UVmaps or surface... :D :D

This is already possible; i use several UV clips on the same object (i.e, reference BG photos all around the project mapped onto different clipped planes on the same object and on the same layer).

I cannot remember if the same UV clip ca affect the same polygon, but for sure you can have as many UV clips per object as you need.

Paolo Zambrini

vpii
04-30-2005, 06:49 AM
I agree with all of you about clip map. I would like to see it right under transparency in surfaces. It would be nice to have just a one layer tree and I can apply a clip map to the leaves surface and not to have its own layer.

Wade
04-30-2005, 10:23 AM
This is already possible; i use several UV clips on the same object (i.e, reference BG photos all around the project mapped onto different clipped planes on the same object and on the same layer).

I cannot remember if the same UV clip ca affect the same polygon, but for sure you can have as many UV clips per object as you need.

Paolo Zambrini


Not sure what you are saying - show me.

When I go to object properties tab and click on clip map it gives me the option of using one Clip map.

Now I do use one clip map over, and over - dozens of times per object to get what I want, it would just be so very USEFUL to me to be able to use 2, 3, 4 or more maps to do Clipping.

tischbein3
04-30-2005, 11:06 AM
I agree with all of you about clip map. I would like to see it right under transparency in surfaces. It would be nice to have just a one layer tree and I can apply a clip map to the leaves surface and not to have its own layer.

yes.
or maybe a "also use as clip" option in each texture layer of the transparency channel could also be a good way to implement this ?
In 90% of the cases I use both: transparency and clip map together, and I cannot renember a single case were it would be a negative option.

appling clip maps to 30 objects maybe pain, but when you have to reapply a new texture to them (Because you've changed something) the pain barrier lowers to something of 10 to 20.

Wade
04-30-2005, 11:15 AM
Ok NOW!!! :o :o I see I can do several maps just add a layer... each based on it own UV silly me. :o :o Thanks for Pushing - but still I want to be able to save my clip map settings with Object file.




Feature request - save clipmap settings with Object file. :cool:

erikals
05-04-2005, 08:06 AM
Yes. agree..

In modeler, saving backdrop image with the object would be nice as well.

Panikos
05-04-2005, 09:16 AM
Yes. agree..

In modeler, saving backdrop image with the object would be nice as well.

Sorry to disagree.
Its preferable to Store Modeler Backdrop Settings in a file than store this info in the object. It will mean nothing to layout.

Karmacop
05-04-2005, 10:12 AM
I'd love the ability to save backdrops in the object file too. It wouldn't mean anything to layout, but it'd be helpful between modeling sessions.

erikals
05-04-2005, 10:29 AM
Sorry to disagree.
Its preferable to Store Modeler Backdrop Settings in a file than store this info in the object. It will mean nothing to layout.

Hm, I don't quite understand. I can't see the downside storing the info in the object. Layout can simply ignore the info, so that should'nt matter.

Panikos
05-04-2005, 10:47 AM
I respect different opinion :)

There are several issues to consider.
Store settings per Layer or the setting is the same for all layers ?
What about when you use "Load object into Layer"

Backdrop setting is a Modeler variable, not an object variable even though I understand the association/need.

Whatever is decided, no complains here :p

erikals
05-04-2005, 11:03 AM
Store settings per Layer or the setting is the same for all layers ?
Per Layer.
What about when you use "Load object into Layer"
Backdrop wil be ignored.

I think maybe Maya has the save-with-object option too, seem to recall some students say that, but too much to dig into right now.

Anyways, doesn't matter to much, I guess there are other features we want more :)

tischbein3
05-06-2005, 05:37 AM
Store settings per Layer or the setting is the same for all layers ?
Per Layer.
What about when you use "Load object into Layer"
Backdrop wil be ignored.

I think maybe Maya has the save-with-object option too, seem to recall some students say that, but too much to dig into right now.

Anyways, doesn't matter to much, I guess there are other features we want more :)

- agree. saving backdrop image information is a good idea, and will improve workflow speed a lot.

my only "but" on this: checkbox turning "backdrop autoloading on/off" should be included in the option panel.

Multible layer backdrops is also a nice idea.
although the more purist side of me could live without it / want a " instant remove all backdrop images" button included.

But in general nice suggest.

Karmacop
05-06-2005, 09:29 AM
Multiple background image layers would be cool!

The only reason I want this is because I use background layers, and never remember to save s config/preset for it. Then I load the model up again and have to guess what the background scale/position was. I know it is my fault for not saving out the backdrop, but in my view it's a broken way to work.

tischbein3
05-06-2005, 05:58 PM
well yes, thats exactly, why this is a good request... :) :)

not to mention, using backdrop presets needs a lot of discipline in regret to the filenames and archiving. Including iit n object file is quite more foolproof, logical and elegant.

I've made the additional proposals because it should be possible to get rid of it as fast as you can "caught" it. Just a small addendum.

Wade
05-30-2005, 03:27 PM
http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?p=276197#post276197

Of like mind. :D

Exception
05-30-2005, 04:32 PM
Yes, and someting everybody seems to forget why this really SHOULD be in Lightwave: Inter-Program compliency!

I use a lot of objects converted from this format or that... trees, bushes, cars... all typical objects with clip maps applied. Convert them into Lightwave format -> lose the clip map! Darn!

Not a convertor on the market that can deal with this, of course not... or they map it to transparency channel, NOT a good idea if you want at least some sort of render speed...

Making scenes with stock objects is my whole day into a nutshell.. doing the clipmaps again and again and again is a major pain.

Can't use any of the other channels as Translucency is for instance always used with proper trees, since leaves are tranlucent... can't safely choose another because you'll have to remember for each object where the clip map is in. Of course you can put it in the filename, but then you remove it upon loading, and when saving the object, and quickly grabbing 'that tree I used in this or that project, is again a pain of either hunting down the original (usually on a library cd somewhere), or loading and stripping the entire original scene to this one object and using import from scene... ooourgghhhh!