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Zafar Iqbal
04-06-2005, 07:56 AM
Hello,

Whenever i talk to a programmer who doesn't have anything to do with 3D graphics, i'm told that the various renders are rediciously slow.

One even said the rendering process should be realtime (several frames per second) and that the 3D programmers don't know what they are doing.

I know this is wrong and probably ignorance, but.. could someone explain me why so many non 3d related programmers are like this?

mattclary
04-06-2005, 08:14 AM
Tell them they can get rich, so they should start writing the code.

Zafar Iqbal
04-06-2005, 09:12 AM
Actually, i did that long ago, but he didn't have the time, lol :)

pauland
04-06-2005, 09:16 AM
I know this is wrong and probably ignorance, but.. could someone explain me why so many non 3d related programmers are like this?

They aren't 3D programmers might be part of the reason.. ..perhaps they'd sing a different tune if they were.

I'm not a 3D programmer (though I am a programmer), but I can understand why renders take time. Perhaps you should talk to some better programmers! ;-)

art
04-06-2005, 09:54 AM
I'm not an expert on the subject, but maybe they confuse the realtime (simplified) 3d rendering styles available in most games via directx/opengl + hadrware etc with rendering of more advanced/realistic effects.
Maybe they are not aware that rendering pixar style is a little more that bunch of 3d matrix transformation and texture mapping on triangles with some more or less approximate lighting/reflections applied to it.

As research goes on, the rendering is getting faster and faster and something that could take a renderer minutes or maybe hours per frame a few years ago can indeed be done in real or near-real time today because of new algorithms and much increased computing power of processors

but...

as the research goes on, people come up with new ideas and advanced visualization techniques which were practically impossible to do in the past due to computational requirements but are reachable today, alas still not very fast, for example radiosity.

Maybe one day we (or our children) will have real time radiosity.. but by that time someone will possibly find a way to bring renderers to a halt again.

Zafar Iqbal
04-06-2005, 12:24 PM
pauland: you're right, maybe i should :)

art: i dont think they confuse it with game 3d. The big problem is that they talk like if they knew what they were talking about :P I've especially noticed this with alot programmers - only few admids they are or could be wrong. Pretty frustrating when having a discussion.

Personally, i think it's because programming is more about facts: "if this then that". No maybe's, no workaround (in same sence as doing workarounds in ie. Lightwave, Photoshop etc.). It's either good or bad (too much and indirect) programming.

I guess i'm just too fed up with ignorant programmers - need new ones :)

GregMalick
04-06-2005, 12:53 PM
Actually, i did that long ago, but he didn't have the time, lol :)

So he doesn't have the time to get rich? What's he working on - world peace? I think his attitude says it all. Loose talk.

byte_fx
04-06-2005, 01:01 PM
Frankly I have to question the intelligence - and even the common sense - of those non-3D programmers you're referring to.

Their comments might barely make sense if there were only one 3D app on the market and therefore a limited number of 3D programmers that are not facing competition from a different app.

But there are several such apps and, at the end of the day, it's all about rendering speed and accuracy. All the golly-gee, whiz-bang modeling, surfacing, lighting amd animation tools we love while pressuring the programmers to expand are thrust aside at that point.

So - as others have pointed out - anyone that can provide that type of speed while maintaining flexible realism can literally write their own ticket.

But - that hasn't happened for the simple reason that all companies involved in 3D - including game developers - are pushing current hardware and programming techniques to the limit. That has led to many OEM and aftermarket rendering schemes that offer wide choices in speed vs. realism vs. use of native app features (texturing, shaders, etc.) IMHO the 3D community is blessed while always clammering for more. More speed, more realism, more VFX, more everything. It will come - but not from non-3D programmers.

Anyway - give your non-3D programmer friends my thanks for providing a good laugh. Those that can do - those that can't point fingers.

byte_fx

**** corrected typing ****

Zafar Iqbal
04-06-2005, 03:53 PM
I think his attitude says it all. Loose talk.

Exactly.. but i was wondering why that is.. it's not just one or two programmers, but alot :confused:


Frankly I have to question the intelligence - and even the common sense - of those non-3D programmers you're referring to.

True, i've catched them in changing openions many times - ofcuz they always claimed that the lastest openion is the one they always had :D


Their comments might barely make sense if there were only one 3D app on the market and therefore a limited number of 3D programmers that are not facing competition from a different app.

But there are several such apps and, at the end of the day...

True, and thats the first argument i use - but as i mentioned earlier, it's defficult to argue with an (non-3d related) programmer :(


IMHO the 3D community is blessed while always clammering for more. More speed, more realism, more VFX, more everything. It will come - but not from non-3D programmers.

I agree - the 3d community is also openminded and willing to help, while programmers almost hate eachothers :P


Anyway - give your non-3D programmer friends my thanks for providing a good laugh. Those that can do - those that can't point fingers.

Hehe.. it's funny, but still so odd that they are like they are.

pauland
04-06-2005, 04:03 PM
Zafar,

I think trying to make sweeping generalisations about programmers, is about as pertinent as saying all policemen are evil once you've had a speeding fine.

I'm really beginning to disagree with some of your generalisations. As a programmer, I don't hate other programmers, nor have I met another programmer (and I've met many) who hated other programmers. I've no idea where you've got that idea from. I really don't understand where you've got your other ideas from either.

Paul

Zafar Iqbal
04-06-2005, 05:09 PM
I'm sad you felt that way, pauland.

I was trying to not to generalize, but could see from the beginning it would be difficult to keep it neutral. But i must admid that i was wondering if it indeed was general among programmers.

I must point out that i have no issues with programmers - without you guys we wouldn't have Lightwave, Photoshop, Combustion, kickass plug-ins, OS' etc.

I was just wondering why so many programmers are like this (the ones i know) - the 3D part was only an example.

I have a close friend. Have known him for 15 years or so. At first he wasn't interested that much in computers, but is now working full time as programmer. I've seen him develop along the years and he is now more like some of the rest i know, but just not that "bad" yet.

Personally i think it's a big deal, so i have therefor had conversations with my friend to let him know that sometimes he doesn't listen but instead stick to teoretical facts, wich on paper looks fine but in real life are quiet different - this goes for almost all programmers i know.

Finally i must appologize for my offending typing. My english isn't that good, so it's hard for me to write in a more neutral manner.

Now that i think about it, some of it could be cultural - we have a lame mentality that, in simple words goes something like this: You suck, i rule.

Sounds like a joke, but no.. and ofcause it's alot more camoflaged than that :)

mattclary
04-07-2005, 05:39 AM
Would I be correct in guessing that your programmer friends are either students or only fresh out of college? I work for a software company and a number of my closest friends are programmers. One of my more arrogant friends made a comment about real-time renders on video cards vs. software renders about 10 years ago, but most of them are pretty clueful and are a fun-loving bunch. :cool:

Zafar Iqbal
04-07-2005, 06:41 AM
Actually no - the ones i refer to have been working professionally for atleast 6-7 years.

Lightwolf
04-07-2005, 07:56 AM
I guess this is like asking a print graphics designer about television graphics...
Programming is such a _huge_ subject and only a small minority of programmers have actually dealt with code in a renderer. So you can take those comments with huge lumps of salt...
Cheers,
Mike