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-FP-
04-19-2003, 02:14 PM
I'm doing my hit-and-run forum visits today and I was surprised to see a couple of anonymous posts that say Lightwave 8 will be out soon. I'm not in a hurry for 8 - I just hadn't heard it from any LW users I know. Bunk or garbage? :confused:

meatycheesyboy
04-19-2003, 02:42 PM
Just rumor at this point Frank.

Newtek has hinted at a big LW related announcement to be let out at Siggraph. People have assumed this means 8 but nothing is concrete and nothing has been let out officially.

Also, on a side note, I like your avatar.

LSlugger
04-20-2003, 11:03 AM
Here is some of the recent grist for the rumor mill:

The HP workstation promotion mentions a free upgrade to LightWave 8.

Amazon lists a new edition of Dan Ablan's Inside LightWave (ISBN 0735713685), due in October.

Jim Plant has said that LightWave users should look forward to Siggraph.

NewTek no longer sells a stand-alone version of Aura, leading some to speculate that LightWave is next. The "half-full" crowd speculates that Aura will be bundled with LightWave.

NewTek recently posted several openings for programmers.

Emmanuel
04-21-2003, 05:42 AM
plus:
the US troops started leaving Iraq.

mattclary
04-21-2003, 06:38 AM
Cool title! I wonder if it's the real title or just a place holder?


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735713685/qid=1050928360/sr=2-3/ref=sr_2_3/102-0706997-2383301

hrgiger
04-21-2003, 07:16 AM
I would assume it's just a placeholder. After all, it has the same cover as 7 and I don't think he'll make the next book with the same cover. Besides, X stands for 10 and that might seem a little silly. But who knows? Maybe.

LSlugger
04-21-2003, 08:36 AM
It's almost certainly a place holder, as there is a similar listing for Inside Maya.

maksei
04-21-2003, 12:04 PM
lightwavex.com

Registrar: ENOM, INC.
Whois Server: whois.enom.com
Domain name: lightwavex.com

Registrant :
NewTek
Ricky Hortman ([email protected])
210-370-8267
FAX: 210-370-8266
8200 IH 10 West
Suite 900
San Antonio, TX 78230
US


Administrative :
NewTek
Ricky Hortman ([email protected])
210-370-8267
FAX: 210-370-8266
8200 IH 10 West
Suite 900
San Antonio, TX 78230
US


Billing :
NewTek
Ricky Hortman ([email protected])
210-370-8267
FAX: 210-370-8266
8200 IH 10 West
Suite 900
San Antonio, TX 78230
US


Technical :
NewTek
Ricky Hortman ([email protected])
210-370-8267
FAX: 210-370-8266
8200 IH 10 West
Suite 900
San Antonio, TX 78230
US



Status: PROTECTED
Note: To help prevent malicious domain hijacking and domain
transfer errors, the registrar has protected the registrant
of this domain name registrant by locking it. Any attempted
transfers will be denied at the registry until the registrant
requests otherwise. The registrant for the name may unlock
the name at any time at the current registrar in order for
a transfer initiation to succeed

Name servers:

Created: 2003-02-26 11:20:41
Expires: 2004-02-26 11:20:41

mattclary
04-21-2003, 12:11 PM
Hmmmmmm.... good thinking, maksei! Oddly, LightWave8.com does not exist... I'm thinking X might mark the spot.

Rei
04-21-2003, 01:08 PM
Why is everyone so eager to get the latest version of LW?

7.X works fine, unless you are a mac.

Rei

cgolchert
04-21-2003, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by hrgiger
I would assume it's just a placeholder. After all, it has the same cover as 7 and I don't think he'll make the next book with the same cover. Besides, X stands for 10 and that might seem a little silly. But who knows? Maybe.

Back in high school algebra they used to tell us "X" represents an unknown amount. :) Dan might have a contract to write a book for the current version every few years when a release is expected by a company such as a book publisher. Since most software evolves quickly, a new release could be expected every few years. Especially when a track record has been "established".

On the other hand...Newtek might be thinking about a name change. I'm not so sure it would be announced though Amazon first though.

cgolchert
04-21-2003, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by Rei
Why is everyone so eager to get the latest version of LW?

7.X works fine, unless you are a mac.

Rei

Yeah, why aren't we all still using v3.5? Who needs volumetrics or NLA or OpenGL or anything to make your job easier. :)

Sorry, I just get tired of the 'Learn what you have 100%' arguments. There are quite a few things LW 7.5b still doesn't have. I'm also sure I'm not pushing character animation capabilities of 7.5 to their limit but I understand someone else's wish to see newer better tools.

All the people that have jumped to Maya or XSI or even Max ( :)I know) Must have done it for a reason. Maybe Maya's cloth sims were better than Motion Designer. Maybe XSI allowed them to replace the render engine. Maybe Max....Maya's Fluids offered, well fluid effects. If LW offered some of these peolpe might be able to work in LW.

I'm learning Maya because no one in the area uses LW anymore (besides me) :(

mattclary
04-21-2003, 01:56 PM
The reason I am anxious for 8 is because I am on 6.5. I know what I'm missing. I was going under the plan to hit every other upgrade, but I assure you, that silly crap is going out the window after I buy 8 (or whatever it's called). I will be forking out the cash everytime Newtek is kind enough to accept it!

Lamont
04-21-2003, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by Rei
Why is everyone so eager to get the latest version of LW?

7.X works fine, unless you are a mac.
Because... I like shiney new things!!!

Earl
04-21-2003, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by mattclary
I will be forking out the cash everytime Newtek is kind enough to accept it! [/B]

I hear ya!

Elmar Moelzer
04-21-2003, 07:55 PM
Hmm LightWaveX sounds tasty.
I still ask myself why the namechange?
Or maybe this is related to some new version of LW Express?
Ahh, I have to stop myself from getting into useless speculation, that leads nowhere. Still, I wonder...
;)
CU
Elmar

cgolchert
04-21-2003, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by Elmar Moelzer
Hmm LightWaveX sounds tasty.
I still ask myself why the namechange?


You're the one saying it IS a name change. ...and you know better that to speculate on that.

maksei
04-21-2003, 10:31 PM
-

JohnL
04-22-2003, 05:32 AM
Lamont wrote: Because...I like shiney new things!!!
You hit the nail on the head!! I couldn't agree with you more.


BTW isn't this what fans the flames of our economy? You might even say its our patriotic duty!;)

Elmar Moelzer
04-22-2003, 09:17 AM
I am not saying anything I was wondering why NT would do a namechange, if tehy did one (I did not say they did, but maybe I was not clear).
Still "LightWaveX" sounds tasty...
CU
Elmar

Chazz
04-22-2003, 10:23 AM
Apple just bought Newtek and are releasing the new version for OSX only...ala Shake.

Rei
04-22-2003, 12:38 PM
Whoa, I didnt mean "Lets all go and get are Amigas out!"

Its just that I would take a while to get to know a new update, before I start bannging on about a new one.

And I did say 7.X didnt I.

Rei

ecliptic87
04-22-2003, 02:28 PM
On the so called "new" Lightwave title, I wouldn't mind it a bit. The thing that was a pet peeve of mine was when a couple years back when the 586 CPU was intro'ed it was called the Pentium, Ok, thats cool. But when P MMX, PII and so forth came along shouldn't it have been Hexium, and Heptium........... no because they wanted customer to know that they were buying was familiar, because people are afraid of unknown change. As long as the goods are inside then does it matter what its called?

cgolchert
04-22-2003, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by Rei

Its just that I would take a while to get to know a new update, before I start bannging on about a new one.


Sorry if my post seemed harsh toward you. It wasn't aimed at just you.

Here is where the intent came from:

Check out more of the forums and people will tell others to "stop bitching" and learn the current version. Yes they have all new features but how long will it take to learn all the new stuff in 7.5b after we've been using 7.5 since it came out? :)

For animators, riggers and modelers, how does DVview, a new gradient and a linux render help? :)

Animators got splinamate. Texture people got the new gradient and surfmixer.

Rolling that all into one person shop that still isn't a lot to learn.



Don't take this as me complaining about the patch...I'm just trying to let people see the other side of the argument.

Videolink
04-25-2003, 06:39 PM
LW8
Lightwave 8
i think they should take the 8
drop it sideways
and it will become
Lightwave infinity

btw

we have 1 LW7 in stock
selling for $1999.00 Canadian
includes shipping and training tape
and yes of course includes a free upgrade to 8

OH ya!
Lightwave meetings
This year the Toronto Lightwave User Group meetings
will be the last Monday of every Month
7-12 pm
2284 Gerrard St E
Toronto
416-690-1690
Beginners are more than welcome.

Experienced animators love teachin newbies,
and we often learn a lot from them as well.

It is a smoking environment and you must bring your own beer or coffee or pop or whatever you may partake in.

Matt
04-25-2003, 07:24 PM
Originally posted by maksei
lightwavex.com

Registrar: ENOM, INC.
Whois Server: whois.enom.com
Domain name: lightwavex.com

Registrant :
NewTek
Ricky Hortman ([email protected])
210-370-8267
FAX: 210-370-8266
8200 IH 10 West
Suite 900
San Antonio, TX 78230
US


LightWave vX :)

Maybe NT are going to implement my interface!!!!!

lol!

djdeejay
05-18-2003, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by Rei
Why is everyone so eager to get the latest version of LW?

7.X works fine, unless you are a mac.

Rei

What exactly do you mean by "unless your using a mac"?

Aegis
05-18-2003, 09:38 PM
Actually, he wrote "unless you are a Mac" - does djdeejay know something about A.I. developments at Apple he's (or should I say "It's"?) not telling us? Are most of the users of this forum actually 'bots?

Inquiring minds need to know...

Ernest
05-19-2003, 12:32 AM
LW 8 is the ideal time to insert aura as a graphics suite.

Then they could say:
It's sweet
It's suite
It's HUIT!

Rei
05-19-2003, 12:08 PM
You mean you dont know! All Mac users are robots that were created by Apple to make there products seem popular!

:D:D:D

Lynx3d
05-19-2003, 01:00 PM
*rofl*

Actually i slowly start to believe that, i personally don't know a single Mac user...or maybe just no one admits using one, donno...

One day i'll see a real Mac in action too (well something that is no iMac i mean)
I don't even know a shop where you can buy a G4 machine (apart from online shops of course)

Anyway, i like the infinity thing...but that's pretty hard to top :)

theosmekhanes
05-20-2003, 01:35 PM
Lynx3d,

You must have never spent any time in Hollywood. Every Writer, Producer, Musician, Animator (2D), Editor and Designer are die-hard Mac heads. and now compositors and Animators (3D) are moving to the Mac in droves because all the windoze/ sgi houses are collapsing. In-fact Cinesite just closed it's effects division (just after X-men 2).

In my area, including the Glendale and Grove Apple stores there are at least 10 Mac specialty shops.

This Forum is the only one in my daily browsing that treats Mac users a fringe group. All the others see the truth; we are the elite.

Now all we need is competent 3D software for the Mac.
;)

DaveW
05-20-2003, 02:14 PM
Wow, you personally know every writer, producer, musician, 2d animator, editor and designer in Hollywood? You must get around.

And I'm curious about all the Windows studios collapsing. You think maybe Apple hardware that is more expensive and twice as slow is going to improve their situation? Is that why Steve Job's own 3d animation studio opted to use Linux on x86 rather than PowerMac's with OSX? ILM also chose Linux on x86 last I checked. Is Digital Domain collapsing since they use Windows, or are they saving themselves by wasting money on Macs? How about WETA? Are they going under because they don't use Macs? I'm sure a Mac renderfarm would save them from destroying themselves. You should email ex-ILMer Stu Maschwitz, he's switched his new studio from Mac to PC, he's doomed now.

And I suppose that the "droves" of 3d animators switching to Macs are the reason for the continued decline in Mac marketshare?

I don't mean to sound anti-Mac, because I'm not, but you are the epitome of a Maclot living in the fantasy world created by Steve Job's Reality Distortion Field.

Aegis
05-20-2003, 04:09 PM
You mean all those Macs aren't just props? Jeez - someone should tell the folks in Hollywood that their $100 million movies could be made for $10 mil if they'd only used PC's instead - and they'd only take 6 months to make... :D

Beamtracer
05-20-2003, 04:14 PM
People accuse Mac users as being Zealots, but it's always rather amusing that there are far more PC-defenders than Mac Zealots!!! :D

The Mac is the dominant platform for professional video editing, DVD production, and music sequencing. In these areas the Mac reigns supreme.

In 3d... not yet, though numbers are definitely growing.

Also, Apple's UNIX based OS X is still relatively new. Many high-end effects houses may be using Linux, but they are avoiding Windows like the plague.

Apart from Microsoft related issues, it is often difficult for them to port their SGI IRIX applications to Windows. IRIX, Linux and Mac OS X have all have a UNIX heritage, which would make porting applications between them much easier.

It's possible that Apple's soon to be released machines running IBM processors + Apple's 64-bit 'Panther' OS + easy application portability may change the 3D scene on the Mac.

The situation is very fluid.

theosmekhanes
05-20-2003, 04:48 PM
DaveW

No I don't know everyone,

But I have contacts at Digital Domain, DFW, Cinesite, and several major animation studios. (CalArts Mafia)

Digital Domain lost the account on Lord of the Rings and X-men because their costs are too high. The issue is the staff of high paid TD and IT people needed to keep those PC/ SGI toaster ovens working with custom scripts and hacks for Maya etc.

Even though Cinesite got the X-men gig they still went under for the same reason.

Heads are rolling all over Hollywood, major power shifts are afoot.

Pixar went linux because it works better with OSX. the workstations that the artists use will be Macs (soon).

We are on the verge of a new generation in Hollywood. Digital filmmakers are coming out of film / art schools with Mac experience and setting up small shops with off the shelf software (mostly from Apple now). The Dinosaurs are dyeing out and the mammals are moving in.

Food for thought.

Anyway back on topic.

NewTek had better have their Mac act together this summer or they will go the way of the dinosaurs. Even so, you guys can still make your plastic women and shiny spaceships no matter what platform you are on.

robewil
05-20-2003, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
People accuse Mac users as being Zealots, but it's always rather amusing that there are far more PC-defenders than Mac Zealots!!!

Are you sure about this Beam? Because I sure see it differently.
Mac users seem to love jargon such as "Mac community". I never seem to hear "Windows community" or "PC community". Why is that? Why do Mac users commonly pose general Lightwave questions (I'm talking about questions like "How do I make a box in Lightwave? :D) in the Mac Lightwave forum, therefore, limiting their exposure to Macheads only when PC Lightwave experts could answer their questions but the Mac user seems to only want other Mac users to answer their questions?

Ask most PC users and they don't even consider themselves "PC Users". I, myself, consider myself a videographer and a 3D artist who happens to use a PC. The PC is not the means to an end but Lightwave is, along with other products.


Yet with Mac users, it seems to be Mac first, productivity second.

And before you challenge that statement and start talking about how Macs in six months are going to be processing in 64 bits while Windows users will be crying in their beer, wallowing in a 32 bit universe, consider this; The PC has been a better Lightwave machine than the Mac for some time now, with all your talk about how fast the Mac will be, why didn't you "switch" to a PC during all these last several years?

"Elite" indeed.

DigiLusionist
05-20-2003, 07:16 PM
I've gotta laugh about this one.

If I had a dollar for every Mac head I've met or read who boasted about the superiority and prevalence of their chosen platform, I'd be Bill Gates.

For a company that has such a small share of the computing industry, the puffery of its user base borders on the self-delusional.

DaveW
05-20-2003, 07:27 PM
Digital Domain lost the account on Lord of the Rings and X-men because their costs are too high. The issue is the staff of high paid TD and IT people needed to keep those PC/ SGI toaster ovens working with custom scripts and hacks for Maya etc.


What do you think WETA uses? Windows, Linux, SGI. Digital Domain is more expensive because they're in California. It's simply a lot more expensive to run a business in California than it is in New Zealand. Being in the same country the movie is filmed in also has advantages. If Digital Domain was using Macs they would have to charge even more because it would take longer to get their work finished.



Even though Cinesite got the X-men gig they still went under for the same reason.


They went under because Windows computers cost less than Macs and they're faster than Mac's too? The reason they shut down has nothing to do with using Windows instead of Macs.



Pixar went linux because it works better with OSX. the workstations that the artists use will be Macs (soon).


What's wrong with using Macs now? What's wrong with using Macs a couple years ago when the change to Linux started? If they end up using Macs eventually, that's great. But right now there is no reason to; they cost more and perform poorly. Until that changes I don't see anybody at Pixar trading in their Linux computers for Macs.



We are on the verge of a new generation in Hollywood. Digital filmmakers are coming out of film / art schools with Mac experience and setting up small shops with off the shelf software (mostly from Apple now). The Dinosaurs are dyeing out and the mammals are moving in.

You still haven't provided any proof of this. The only articles I've seen of platform-switching has been from SGI's to either Windows or Linux, and in at least one case from Mac to Windows. If film school grads have Mac experience, that's great but it's not going to change the pipelines at large, established FX houses and it's not going to change the awful price/performance ratio of Macs. And a lot of art school grads who are learning 3d aren't learning it on Macs, they're learning it on PC's.

Beamtracer, you're right about video editing and sound, I was just referring to his comments about 3d artists swtiching to Macs in "droves". It just isnt' happening and it won't happen until Apple can improve their price/performance ratio. It has to not merely be equal with that of PC's, it has to exceed it or there's no advantage to switching. I switched from Mac to Windows several years ago because of this and I have not once regretted it. I won't go back to Macs until it becomes an advantage for me to do so.

As for FX houses avoiding Windows like the plague, well, that's true at the large houses that were formerly SGI based, but a lot of the smaller shops are using Windows and even some of the big ones like Digital Domain. The new IBM processors may change things for Macs, but don't forget that IBM is also going to be selling Linux computers with these processors. It's possible that IBM will be selling the Linux computers cheaper than Apple's Powermacs. And of course you must factor in the renderfarms. Apple needs to come up with a cheap solution for that. And it's not like AMD and Intel are just sitting on their duffs either, they both have 64 bit chips out already and consumer versions on the way later this year.

I know all this sounds biased against Macs, but I'm honestly not anti-Mac at all. It used to be my platform of choice and I have no problems going back if I had a good reason to do so. I want to see Apple succeed and take big bite out of MS's marketshare. I just don't think that's going to happen with Apple having too much control over the platform and their high prices/low performance.

hrgiger
05-20-2003, 11:51 PM
Originally posted by Beamtracer

In 3d... not yet, though numbers are definitely growing.



That's because the numbers have nowhere else to go but up.

sailor
05-21-2003, 12:48 AM
Well i'm not an anti Mac eitheir...and not a techie so i really dont care what is runnin under LW or Maya since its stable enough...this said for about 4 or 5 years i've been told that Macs are goin to take the 3d market....still waiting...maybe it will happen this time but after so mani Macmaniacs sayin so for years im havin some doubts...and the Linux argument i think its even worse because now we have here some Win/Linux machines ...and still no Macs with the Linux choice i will rather think that Mac has still less chances to sell their machines...PC components are cheaper and if u want a Unix based OS just put Linux...why buyin Mac components or hardware way more expensive? I still remember a time when Photoshopers were all workin on Macs...its is not true anymore as far as i can see at least...remember that apart from specific scientific machines (calculators and stuff like that) 3d and CGI is the more machine power demanding market...the 3d market is about 15 years old now ? so where the heck are the Macs? neither LW nor Maya (just name the ones i know) have as good releases of their Mac versions...i have never applied to a position sayin "i'm a Mac user" and nobody has ever asked me if i cared about workin on a Mac (i did used Lw on a Mac for a week or so sometime ago)
btw i dont even know if Alias has released a Maya 5 version for Mac....mmmm wondering.

Beamtracer
05-21-2003, 02:07 AM
Originally posted by robewil
Mac users seem to love jargon such as "Mac community". I never seem to hear "Windows community" or "PC community". Why is that?
I think that is because many Windows users are embarrassed to associate themselves with Microsoft.

You hear people say "I'm a Mac user" but you rarely hear someone say "I'm a Windows user".

Windows users prefer to use terms like "PC", even though that could mean Windows or Linux. Others prefer to say they use the "Intel" platform (an example of that is flay.com).

Every other platform is defined by the OS it runs. Why not Windows?

Meshbuilder
05-21-2003, 03:13 AM
Mac users have a Mac community because they are in fact a minority. And they have received a lot of criticism over their choice of platform over the years and they still are. When people end up in situations like that, they start to defend themself.

I think the LW community is a bit the same. LW users have been a minority and they have to defend their choice of software over the years. I no I have. First to Max users when I started with 3D and nowadays to Maya users.

Why do you see people posting wip and gallery stuff in the Lightwave 3D forum at CG talk and not in the gallery or wip section?
Or all the other discussion that has nothing to do with LW or 3D. Why don´t they post it o general discussion? The answer is simple, because they feel that they share something that they don´t with the people in the other forums. Is that a bad thing?

I can't understand why people always complain over Mac users. Let them do what they want. IF the windows community isn't a community, I'm sorry for you but don't jumping on Mac users because they have one.
And yes some time Macusers come and tell people how good and so their platform is but how many times do you think they need to explain to people why they are using a Mac? And all the time hear people complain over the Mac or telling some bad joke about Mac users. Do you think they will stop defending themself and join into small group when stuff like that happen?

DaveW
05-21-2003, 09:21 AM
Windows users aren't embarrased to be associated with Microsoft. I think the term PC user came about because before MS became the dominant OS there was really no single company to associate PC users with; there were several companies making DOS, several cpu companies, several IBM compatible computers. So the generic term "PC user" was more fitting to differentiate them from users of other platforms, probably because the first IBM computers were called the IBM PC. And the name has stuck, although I have met a lot of people who refer to themselves as Windows users.

And as far as I know the reason Flay says Intel instead of Windows is to differentiate between the Alpha and Intel versions of Lightwave, which both run on Windows. x86 might be more accurate but when LW was ported to x86, Intel was still the only game in town.

robewil
05-21-2003, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
I think that is because many Windows users are embarrassed to associate themselves with Microsoft.
No! In fact you seemed to have missed my point about communities. PC/Windows/Linux users aren't part of the "PC Community", they are parts of whatever community drives them (i.e. Lightwave or 3D community). As I stated earlier, Mac users seem to believe their choice of platform supercedes everything else.


Originally posted by Beamtracer
Every other platform is defined by the OS it runs. Why not Windows?
That's because first of all, there are multiple OS'es that "define" the PC platform. Secondly, who cares?

I would prefer we all see ourselves in the same community, the LIGHTWAVE COMMUNITY. Wouldn't that be more accurate, more productive, more enlightening, more cool? Or would you rather continue flaunting about how great the silicon is in your box?

hrgiger
05-21-2003, 12:19 PM
I'm not really anti-mac but I'd never use one.

Why on earth would I want to buy a computer that doesn't necessarily perform any better then a pc, just so I can run a tenth of the software?

People like what they like and to each his own but I'd hate to have to get used to hearing "Mac version not yet available."

theosmekhanes
05-21-2003, 12:48 PM
OK, I'm bored. I'll humor a response.

(note, I'm responding to several posters not targeting any one in particular)

First, Weta uses Macs. it was the only solution to view 2k files in real time (they hacked the video card with their own software)

My point was not that the big guys are all switching to Macs, but they are being supplanted by smaller Mac/ linux houses.

Yes Mac users are a minority, Artists are a minority, film directors are a minority, musicians are a minority. Do you see my point?

My choice of platform is a question of culture. I have to look at my screen all day long and wondoze pisses me off. IT people are counter productive and not needed in a Mac environment. I have highly trained sensibilities and Windoze offends them, Apple "gets it."

some one brought up Community, well the Mac community consists of many aspects of production, we speak the same language when it comes to the Mac so it becomes our point of convergence.

I see the Lightwave Community as it's own downfall. LW is not a complete solution for production. Sometimes it makes more sense to make a matte painting or photograph a model. The LW community does not take into account that 3d does not exist in a vacuum. I can hear the sucking sound when I visit these forums.

The statement about the alleged short comings of the Mac price / performance ratio are greatly exaggerated. I work with 2k cineon file all day long on a 2 year old quicksilver G4. yeah I would like a faster computer but it just plain works! What the heck are you people talking about, twice the price, half the speed? BS!

Proof that Mac and 3D are on the rise? well I will again site Newtek's own statements that LW 7.0 - 7.5 saw more Mac sales than PC...Nuf said.

It is clear that NT failed the Mac, not the other way around.

And, as the final blow I will site an independent poll of Computer users, that found that Mac user on average have more education. Shall we compare degrees?

I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but these are fact you need to consider before you make ignorant statements about a community you have no part in.

robewil
05-21-2003, 12:50 PM
I'm not anit-Mac either. In fact, I use to use them regularly and would consider getting one again if I felt I could benefit from it.

I just dislike the us vs. them attitude that I get so often from Mac users. I'm talking about those who imply or outright state things like "Creative people use Macs", "Windows users are morons who only go with the flock.", "Next year's new Macintoshes will be so killer that Windows users will tear their hair out in agony lamenting their choice of going with something other than Apple.", and "My Macintosh is the symbol of my individualism."

In fairness, I'm not referring to BeamTracer or most of the Mac users on this forum, although I have seen posts in past threads that do make statements such as these. Beam obviously believes what he believes. He states his beliefs eloquently. But even he exposes this attitude with his talk of "Mac community" and "Don't Windows users ever get excited about anything?"

j3st3r
05-21-2003, 01:06 PM
Wohaaa

This Mac-PC debate is really unnecessary, pointless.

I remember, when I was teenager, there were similar competition between Sinclair ZX Spectrum users, and Commodore users. Now there is PC-Mac, LW-Maya, etc.

I have seen Mac working. But I think, it`s price is too high compared to the performance of it.

Weta uses Mac for compositing, but not only Mac, along with PCs and Sgis as well.

I think windows is spreading in similar pace as Macs do. And one more thing. When there was a rumour that Apple buys Maya, the Mac sale was raised. Now this is lower...Then fols thought, that Maya will be realesed on Mac only...

I do hope, that Lightwave never be a one-platform application...

Lightwolf
05-21-2003, 01:19 PM
Damn, I hate getting into platform wars, but I'm bored too ;)

Originally posted by theosmekhanes
it was the only solution to view 2k files in real time (they hacked the video card with their own software)
Gee, I didn't know the Collossus runs on a Mac, I though it was a machine by BOXX...
The colour grading was done entirely on w2K machines.
Yes Macs can play back 2K frames, so can a PC... !?

My point was not that the big guys are all switching to Macs, but they are being supplanted by smaller Mac/ linux houses.
Linux has been used by all major houses, mainly because it is quite easy to port the proprietary software from SGIs (and not as easy as porting over to OSX, despite the u*ix base there are still plenty of issues, even though that is getting better on the mac side).
It might be different here in Germany, but I could hardly name one Mac 3D house, but plenty of Windows based places...
As long as the 3D apps on the Mac underachieve, and the price/performance ratios is a bad as it is, this ain't gonna change too soon. (check www.blanos.com for LW benchmarks, and then go over to Dell and compare the prices of a top notch Xeon workstation to a top of the line Mac, I'm not even talking self-assembled PC here...).

Yes Mac users are a minority, Artists are a minority, film directors are a minority, musicians are a minority. Do you see my point?
No, frankly I don't. I am a singular minority as well, but why should I buy a Mac? :D
Seriously though, who isn't a minority in one way or another. This really isn't an argument, is it?


My choice of platform is a question of culture. I have to look at my screen all day long and wondoze pisses me off. IT people are counter productive and not needed in a Mac environment.
Well, that is your opinion, and valid as such. I don't really care what machine I work on, as long as it gets my job done fast.
But this argument of yours is the only one I would count as being "valid" in this list.
I hate to say this, but it is the artist, not the tools ;)


The statement about the alleged short comings of the Mac price / performance ratio are greatly exaggerated. I work with 2k cineon file all day long on a 2 year old quicksilver G4.
Well, I work on a three year old PC with 2K files, and even did some 2K scope shots (actually, 22500 frames of animation and compositing) on PCs in 1998.
Current PCs have a better pricer/performance ratio, and yes, I'd like a new box too ;)

Proof that Mac and 3D are on the rise? well I will again site Newtek's own statements that LW 7.0 - 7.5 saw more Mac sales than PC...Nuf said.
Considering the fact that many PC users bought upgrades, and many are using LW since 4.0...
We have 6 licenses, they were "sales" for 5.6, and have only counted as upgrades for 6.0 and 7.0.


And, as the final blow I will site an independent poll of Computer users, that found that Mac user on average have more education. Shall we compare degrees?
Hey, let's all pull down our pants :)
Never trust a poll you didn't forge yourself.
How about looking at it from this angle: Most "normal" people can't even afford a Mac, so you automatically have a better chance of having a user base with a higher education, since they tend to have the wad.
That's like saying a Rolls Royce must be the best car, since only rich (and thus mostly educated) people can afford one.
Why not compare the top 5% most educated Windows users with the Mac users?


I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but these are fact you need to consider before you make ignorant statements about a community you have no part in.
....and now please, roll on the facts :p
Cheers,
Mike

theosmekhanes
05-21-2003, 02:36 PM
"Well, that is your opinion, and valid as such. I don't really care what machine I work on, as long as it gets my job done fast.
But this argument of yours is the only one I would count as being "valid" in this list.
I hate to say this, but it is the artist, not the tools"

Yeah it is the artist, and I choose better tools.

I'm not trying to convince people to switch to Mac, frankly I don't care.

It's the misinformed dismissals from trolls that I feel need to be countered.

the Mac vrs. PC debate is not pointless. You might as well say that the Democrat / Republican debate is pointless . These contests determine the way we live and work in america and the world. I do not want to live in a Windoze world. You may be perfectly happy, but I have higher standards.


PCs cheaper? Well, you get what you pay for

Oh and car metaphors are done to death. What would you rather drive, a Beige box with cardboard seats, or for $50 - $100 more, a shiny new VW? Again you people are Way exaggerating the price performance ratio. If you really look closely at the big picture you will see the difference is slim. In a couple of months I'll have bragging rights. In the mean time, my Mac is keeping its superior attitude.

P.S.

Do you think LW8 will ship at Siggraph or do we have to wait till' next spring?

sailor
05-21-2003, 03:26 PM
"You might as well say that the Democrat / Republican debate is pointless . These contests determine the way we live and work in america and the world. "


Sorry fella it is not....maybe the way u live and u work in america but not "the world"...another proof u are goin emotional and exagerating the truth....America (wich is actually NORTH America (remember there is a South) and more accurately USA is just a very small percentage of the humanity...and in a large majority of countries u dont have Democrats and Republicansbut much more differnet politicals groups...for someone that talks about "degrees" u sound like someone that didnt attend too many geography classes did ya? and before u flame me for this i will say that i was born In Peru (South America) so technically i am an american and proud of it :)

takkun
05-21-2003, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by theosmekhanes
In a couple of months I'll have bragging rights. In the mean time, my Mac is keeping its superior attitude. LOL! Superior attitude, WTF! You give a bad name to Mac users. It's pompous idiots like you that are stopping Apple from gaining more market share. You should stop before you make a bigger fool of yourself. Ohh, and I'm a Mac/PC user- it's all good. :D

ericsmith
05-21-2003, 04:25 PM
Here's an attempt at some neutral data from someone who lives on both sides of the fence.

1. For years, the Mac has been the tool of choice for the graphic design field. Now, you can get quark, photoshop, etc. for both platforms, but most graphic designers that started out more than 5 years ago have a significant investment in Mac stuff, and it would not be beneficial financially to switch, even if PC boxes are cheaper. In the video editing arena, this is probably even more true.

2. That doesn't mean that today there aren't very good options available for both platforms. But still, most service bureaus for the graphic design industry (film output, etc) are still mostly mac based. So for graphic designers and illustrators, it's still a good idea to have a mac.

3. Also, in the video editing arena, Final Cut Pro is really making an impact, and it deserves it. It is a GREAT editing package. I think it will continue to dominate it's market, making macs a smart choice for video editors.

4. In the 3d arena, however, the situation is reversed. PCs (and of course SGI) were the first machines with high end 3d software, so they have the upper hand. There are definitely more options software and hardware wise (ie more high end video cards), making the PC a better choice for those that spend most of their time modeling or animating in 3d.

5. It's true that PCs can outperform macs for the same price, but not as dramatically as some might think. I have a dual 800 mhz mac and a dual 2.4 ghz xeon PC. The PC will render the same scene in about half the time as on the mac, which is great, but no what it should be based on the mhz alone. Today, I could by a dual 1.4 ghz mac for around $2500 - $3000, which would be only slightly slower than a dual 2.4 xeon with equal extras from dell, which would probably cost the same $2500 - $3000.

6. On the other hand, PCs are easier to upgrade, and you have the option of buying a system from smaller companies cheaper. My 2.4 dual xeon was only $2000--without a lot of the extras like firewire or a fancy case, but it works just fine anyways. And if I want to later upgrade my CPUs when 4 ghz xeons come out, I don't have to buy a whole new system.

7. In spite of the price benefits, maintaining a PC is more expensive. Macs almost never get destroyed by viruses, and they just keep on trucking, without having to rebuild systems or any of that stuff. So you may spend less dollars on a PC, but you are going to spend more unbillable time keeping it running right.

The bottom line is that every user has unique skills and needs. There is no cut and dry "better" or "worse" choice between the two platforms-- it really depends on the user.

Eric

theosmekhanes
05-21-2003, 05:20 PM
Sailor

I'm not going to flame you, but you are splitting hairs. the point of a metaphor is to illustrate an analogue. Comparing one paradigm to another, to make the esoteric, concrete.

Picking apart a metaphor as if it where literal is naive. Please refrain from personal attacks. You seem to be offended by my assertion that I hold prestigious degrees in my field. It is fine by me if you think I am arrogant, but trying to slight me with petty insults just makes you look bad.


takkun

"LOL! Superior attitude, WTF! You give a bad name to Mac users. It's pompous idiots like you that are stopping Apple from gaining more market share. You should stop before you make a bigger fool of yourself. Ohh, and I'm a Mac/PC user- it's all good."

Dude, take a chill pill. You don't have to agree with me but you should at-least make the effort to formulate an intelligent rebuttal.

I like debate, and dissenting opinion, It makes people smarter and better informed. If you don't like to engage in discourse, don't post here.

My "pompous" attitude is my prerogative, you have no right to dictate what I say or how I say it. Likewise, you can take any attitude you want as long as you keep it above the belt.

I'm having fun here, how bout' you folks.

Anyway,

does any one have an opinion on the fate of the dongle with LW8. I thinks it's time to cut the cord.

robewil
05-21-2003, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by theosmekhanes
You may be perfectly happy, but I have higher standards.
This is not a flame?

DaveW
05-21-2003, 06:21 PM
http://www.blanos.com/benchmark

Look at the performance disparity between Macs and PC's. It's not exaggerated. The results are similar in other benchmarking applications. Altivec helps speed up some things, and in some cases it make the Mac perform faster than a PC, but for most things the PC is a lot faster. And a hell of a lot cheaper. I just built a AthlonXP 2700+ with 1GB RAM, firewire, usb 2, 6.1 sound, cd-r, dvd, ect. for $730. And it's in a very nice looking Antec case :) When I can do that with Macs I might consider switching back.

And the idea that Macs require less IT resources than PC's is just bs. At every company I've worked for they have been equally as problematic, except for the company I work at now where the Macs actually have more problems than the PCs.

As for LW8 ditching the dongle, I highly doubt it. I suppose it's possible they go for a solution like FlexLM, but there will definately be some sort of protection. I would expect that for compatibility they will stick with the current dongle method.

Ernest
05-21-2003, 08:05 PM
Fact: LW looks exactly the same on a mac and on a PC (except for the useless little titile bar)
Fact: LW costs exactly the same for a Mac and for a PC
Fact: You can't get a virus on a PC (or Mac) that is only used for LW.
Fact: HDDS are just as likely to fail on a PC as on a Mac.
Fact: LW responds faster on a cutting edge PC than on a current cutting edge Mac.
Fact: LW renders faster on a cutting edge PC than on a current cutting edge Mac.
Fact: Video post processing effects are rendered faster on a cutting edge PC than on a current cutting edge Mac.
Fact: a cutting edge PC costs less than a current cutting edge Mac.
Fact: 64 bit chips are already available for PCs, not in the future; (in the future, they will be faster and cheaper.) and LW is not faster on them.
Fact: If a superfast 64 bit Mac appeared in the future, current Mac users would NOT get a free upgrade (maybe not even a discount)
Fact: You canNOT lower costs by using the exact same software more slowly on a more expensive machine.
Fact: if you are using a slower, more expensive machine now, it will not benefit you -at all- that the same brand that maufactures your slow, expensive computer starts producing fast, cheap computers (at least not more than it would benefit someone who doesn't currently use them).
These are the facts, and they are undisputed.

I won't defend windows. If LW for Linux comes out, I'll switch in a heartbeat; not because Linux is like OSX but because Linux is like Linux. But the computer itself is just a toaster oven. All it can do is turn on and of. If both toasters can fit LW toasts, then the toaster that turns on and off more times in parallel and does it faster is obviously better.

CTRL+X
05-21-2003, 08:53 PM
Just dropped in because the subject was LW8 and instead find this...... Can't believe people still debate over parts inside of a box, and brand.... geeze I thought that debate was over last decade.

DaveW
05-22-2003, 12:15 AM
It'll never end.

sailor
05-22-2003, 12:19 AM
theosmekhanes:

u are right...splittin hairs like i did is stupid and i apologize u have a good point and also respondin to your analogy in that way was kind of naive too...the way u answered makes me belive u do have a certain degree but u still have an issue with ur emotions anyway i think :)
i think that when u start ur answers with "i dont want to sound arrogant" or stuff like that u ARE sounding arrogant and this is exactly the way people reads ur posts...u are in the same time intelligent enough to see that u are going to sound arrogant AND in the other hand consider other readers naive enough to believe that your statement "i dont wanna sound arrogant" will fool us...

hope u see my point.

if we go back to facts what Ernest said was just a perfect demonstration :)

Ernest
05-22-2003, 12:45 AM
I just hope everyone understood that it was a pun of "a few good men". That was a cool movie!

Lightwolf
05-22-2003, 02:19 AM
Originally posted by theosmekhanes
Yeah it is the artist, and I choose better tools.
;) So do I.

Oh and car metaphors are done to death. What would you rather drive, a Beige box with cardboard seats, or for $50 - $100 more, a shiny new VW?
I'm pretty emotionless about cars to be honest. It has to get me from A to B, have a low fuel useage and has to be reaseonably safe.
I care a lot about my work, I'm emotional there. Tools not.

Cheers,
Mike

theosmekhanes
05-22-2003, 11:25 AM
yeah, we're all freinds now.

how bout' some LW8 talk?
:D

Lynx3d
05-22-2003, 12:42 PM
Thats a very good idea...

I finally see the truth in the sentence of one of our professors who said something like:
"humans spend considerable amounts of time to justify their actions"
well he was talking about lazy students and stuff, but it actually works for really everything...

what was the actual topic?
Oh yea it all started when i said i don't know a Mac user in person (which is actually the truth, but maybe it's just because i don't know any real 2D artist or printing/layouting guy)

Hm who gets me a ticket to Siggraph? I want to see LW8 in action!

panini
05-24-2003, 10:02 AM
One thing I don't understand is why Mac users always refer to PCs as ugly beige boxes.

Ironically Apple's gramatically incorrect: "Think Different" slogan applies much more to the PC world than Apple. It's Apple who offer all the same old lookin stuff, while on the PC side you have so many options you actually can think differently.

http://www.alienware.com/system_pages/area-51m.aspx

http://www.alienware.com/workstations_main_dv.aspx

I'm not going to comment much about speed differences, but I do know designers and regular people who are faithful to their Macs even though they keep crashing and one of them has to go over to the Mac store in Soho ( lucky he lives just 2 blocks away ) every other week to fix something they screwed up when adding or upgrading something. Games I make which run pefectly on my 2 year old PC crawl on their latest iMacs ( and they paid more too ).

On a video editing note: You can choose Vegas at 1/2 the price of FCPro or something like Toaster at twice the price. Either way you are better off than with FCPro. ( by the way 1/2 of the features of FCPro when it appeared were ripped from Vegas which never required any extra hardware to run in real time without rendering )

ericsmith
05-24-2003, 10:44 AM
Hmmm...

Apple G4 1420 mhz dual processor.
renders the raytrace benchmark from blanos in 94 sec.
cost: $2,699

Apple G4 1000 mhz dual
renders the raytrace benchmark in 121 sec.
cost: $1,920

Alienware P4 2.66 ghz
benchmark rendered in 111 sec
cost: $2,393

Alienware P4 3.0 ghz
benchmark rendered in 87 sec
cost: $3,626

In all fairness, this isn't the most scientific comparison, due to the fact that the benchmarks aren't on identically configured systems, and some of the benchmarks were rendered in LW 7.0 as opposed to 7.5, but overall the price/performance numbers seem pretty even.

Don't get me wrong, I'd rather spend the most money and get the fastest machine, or even better, buy the fastest machine in an ugly beige case and save a thousand bucks. But I don't think it's fair to think that those who choose macs are deluded or elitist.

Eric

Eric

Agni
05-24-2003, 12:27 PM
Any more LW8 news? Any soft concrete about it's new features (especially about LScript)?

How can one submit suggestions for upgrades to come?

How can one submit LScript suggestions and/or get messages to Bob Hood?

Lets seek LW8. --- Be nice, not lice. ;)

Agni

Lynx3d
05-24-2003, 01:11 PM
Well Bob reads and posts on the LScript mailing list.
But currently i think first the SDK has to be improved before LScript can do a quantum leap...

But has anyone looked on Bobs page lately?
Something tells me those guys are running Screamernet on X-Boxes...??

If i may cite:

A little tinkering over the weekend allowed me to generate the following image from the Blade content scene. It was rendered using Linux Screamernet (necessarily linked against a slightly older version of GLIBC), on a piece of computing hardware that, well, isn't exactly known for running LightWave.

Can you guess the platform? ;)

http://www.lightwave-outpost.com/Bob/blade035_x.jpg


i may have interpreted that wrong, but...!?

panini
05-24-2003, 03:52 PM
Well, that is only one of the benchmarks and you are comparing top of the line DUAL mac to a single chip Pentium.

You can buy a dual Pentium or AMD from BOXX for less or about the same as that Mac and I can guarantee you Mac won't be even close in most benchmarks. ( About $2500 for dual AMD 2800 and about $2900 for dual Pentium 2.66GHZ )

Benchmarks I saw recently had 7-8 After effects and a few Lightwave tests. On most of those Mac was taking twice as long to complete tasks. Even against a single Pentium in some cases.

I'm not saying that Mac users are all deluded. Some just feel more comfortable on Macs and that's fine. Talent is more important than a faster machine anyway.

But, there are a lot of deluded Mac users who actually beleve that Gigahertz do not matter and whatever else Jobs says. And Windows 2K is every bit as stable as any Mac OS ( mine hasn't crashed in more than a year ) contrary to what they believe.

Now again we have this hype about the upcoming 64bit IBM processors while on the PC side 64bit processing has been available for a couple of months now ( reminds me of those Mac supercomputer ads when G4 passed the one billion instructions per second mark, only they forgot to mention that Pentium Xeons had passed the same number 6 months earlier and nobody even cared )

Aegis
05-24-2003, 04:32 PM
A 2.66ghz Dell Dimension 8300'll get similar benchmarks to that Alienware single processor 2.66 for $899 - kinda swings me more towards the PC (OS X is sexy though :) )

Karl Hansson
05-25-2003, 01:39 AM
Most macusers use mac because of Mac OS X. I hardly think anyone uses the mac because of the machine itself. In fact there are lots of macusers not happy with the hardwaresituation even though some are to proud to admit it. The fact is that the current macs are stoneage technology, the G4 has virtually not seen any development since it was first revield some four five years ago. Only some minor mhz updates (500 hard mhz in total in four years). All G4s over 1ghz are merely overclocked 1ghz processors. Add to that the extremly small systembuss and that the ram is to slow. So I dont think it's real fair to compare macs with any modern PC.

Apple has let us down in the hardware department for years. I'm not happy with the situation. If OS X was available for PC I would have chosen that. You know there acctually is a PC version of OS X deep somewhere into apples safekeepings.

Aegis
05-25-2003, 03:00 AM
I'd swap Windows for an x86 OS X in a second...

camdoggz
05-25-2003, 07:04 AM
LightWave 3D [8] to debut at SIGGRAPH 2003

http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/2003/04/25/lightwave/

You peeps see this?

Lynx3d
05-25-2003, 07:27 AM
If you read the forums more carefully you'd have seen thatit has been anounced weeks ago... (http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3723), and that i already asked who gets me a ticket to Siggraph a few posts earlier in this thread ;)

Beamtracer
05-25-2003, 09:32 PM
Originally posted by camdoggz
LightWave 3D [8] to debut at SIGGRAPH 2003

http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/2003/04/25/lightwave/

You peeps see this?

Yep, I must be a peep, and I saw it. A debut is when the software is released. This isn't a release, just a tease.

This brings up the question, why? Why is Newtek going against their previous stated policy of not commenting on new software versions before they are released?

Are they saying... sorry everyone, but you're going to have to wait some more before Lightwave 8 is released, but to retain confidence in users we'll show you a peep so that you'll believe that something is being developed.

Or, is Luxology going to release something else at Siggraph, and this is a pre-emptive move? If this is the case, Newtek's recent promise that those who now buy LW7.5 will receive a free upgrade when LW8 is released will commit people to Newtek.

By the way, I qualify the above statements as speculation and not fact. There are a lot of questions still unanswered, and speculation is all we can indulge in until the facts emerge.

Nightwalker
05-26-2003, 08:06 AM
Any news about a Linux vertion? And please dont start a Linux vs Windows vs Mac vs beos vs spectrum discution....

ericsmith
05-26-2003, 09:27 AM
If I recall correctly, Newtek announced ver. 6 several months before it shipped. A preview announcement like this is nothing new.

Eric

Doug Nicola
05-26-2003, 04:08 PM
They are announcing it months in advance so we can all recover from the Shock & Awe of the astounding new features, ferociously debate the merits of these features, politely suggest that everyone at NewTek has lost it, forget what the original thread topic was about, start new ferocious debates about whether NewTek should merge with Luxology and Starbucks and release a version that revolutionizes the animation of flavored espresso drinks, all get bored with the whole thing, and then buy 8 when it's released like we were all going to do anyways.

:)

Aegis
05-26-2003, 04:13 PM
Spectrums RULE! My Speccy running VU-3D can kick the *** of your PC/Mac/XBox runnin' LightWave 3D any day :D

Doug Nicola
05-26-2003, 04:24 PM
Did I say bored? ;) Let's go DOS! Windows is for sissies!

Fausto
05-27-2003, 03:51 AM
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Can't see how any mac could compete with this... add a couple of av drives and a gig of memory to an apple and you're taking out a second mortgage.

Here's a reasonably comparable machine from apple, the people's choice!

Summary
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• 1GB DDR333 SDRAM (PC2700) - 2 DIMMs
• 180GB Ultra ATA drive
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Price $3,448.00

Rei
05-27-2003, 12:18 PM
On top of that, Alienware PC's look better than Mac's, which in turn look better than most other PC's...