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Lottmedia
03-14-2005, 03:04 PM
Juat found out that the new verson of Poser has SSS (or some workaround) Can't believe such a low end app is iplimenting that. Maby LW should too...... Just jibing. Thought I might intrest some here as there is some Poser/LW workflow out there.


J-Rod

Celshader
03-14-2005, 04:43 PM
Juat found out that the new verson of Poser has SSS (or some workaround) Can't believe such a low end app is iplimenting that. Maby LW should too...... Just jibing. Thought I might intrest some here as there is some Poser/LW workflow out there.

You got me curious, so I glanced over my shoulder and asked Dave Jerrard: "G2 (http://www.worley.com/G2/g2_main.html#startit) can do SSS...right? It just means you have to spend extra money on top of the $1250 (http://www.sharbor.com/products/NTKN0300082.html) that you normally pay for LightWave."

"Sure. There's also the Coffee (http://koti.mbnet.fi/anttij77/Plugins/Coffee.html) shader."

"Coffee shader?"

"Yup, and it's free! Another free one's the Ska (http://www.flay.com/GetDetail.cfm?ID=1255) shader, and a new one just came out called ChanLum (http://www.flay.com/GetDetail.CFM?ID=2120). I think LightWave also comes with a built-in SSS shader called gSkin."

"Oh. Cool. Is gSkin tough to use?"

"Y'gotta play around with it a little bit. OGO_Hikari (http://www.flay.com/GetDetail.cfm?ID=1276) does SSS, too."

"Neat. Where'd you find all of these?"

"I did a search on Flay (http://www.flay.com/getentry.cfm) a while back for SSS shaders."

"Ah. Cool."

Dodgy
03-14-2005, 06:49 PM
I don't know of any gskin plugin... I know all the others though. Ogo Hikari does it mathematically perfect I think, but it is slow, whilst ChanLum uses cheats, but it renders quite nicely and is quite quick. Not sure about the g2 shader....Coffe is just a thickness based shader as far as I'm aware...

Celshader
03-14-2005, 07:08 PM
I don't know of any gskin plugin...

I found it in the Shaders tab of the Surface Editor. There it was: "gSkin." It's not listed in the LightWave manual, though. Now I'm wondering if it came with an older copy of LightWave, or if I got it somewhere online. :confused:

Dave thinks the Coffee shader does SSS, even though the website doesn't mention it. I haven't tried the Coffee shader, so I can't say.

Karmacop
03-14-2005, 07:18 PM
gskin came in 6 or 7 .. it's by the same people that did gmil and I think the newer celshader.

The coffee shader just shades based on thickness, it doesn't do is the light transmission, so you wont get glowing ears from a back light etc.

wacom
03-14-2005, 09:47 PM
Don't forget that you can fake it fairly well for many things if you use a null parented to the light and then apply gradients as ThriJ has shown:

http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?t=32248&highlight=SSS

Just another option...

That new Nodal that Tess is rave'n about should do it too...

faulknermano
03-14-2005, 10:06 PM
seek and ye shall find.

(chanlum looks very good, especially if you see what's been being put up in the cgtalk thread.)

SplineGod
03-14-2005, 11:34 PM
Theres also TBs Fake Skin Shader
http://home.att.ne.jp/omega/tabo/3dlabo/p_lwp.html

Dodgy
03-15-2005, 04:44 AM
Hmmm, I've never seen this gskin shader... Did it quietly slip out of the installer?

Celshader
03-15-2005, 04:57 AM
Hmmm, I've never seen this gskin shader... Did it quietly slip out of the installer?

I guess so. My gSkin.p has a date stamp of 10/26/2001 on it.

Karmacop
03-15-2005, 06:26 AM
It's ok Dodgy, you're just a bit slow ;)

kyuzo
03-15-2005, 07:05 AM
I must be slow too! I have LW 7 & 8 and neither has gskin...
I found a reference to it on Google which indicated it came from Flay, but Flay doesn't seem to have it now... (searched for gskin, skin, surface, etc...)

If it didn't come with LW (which would appear to be the case) could someone provide a link to it?

cheers,

Derek

JamesCurtis
03-15-2005, 08:09 AM
Yes, I'd like a link to it too.

Emmanuel
03-15-2005, 08:11 AM
Where do I find gSkin !?
gmil, yes, its there...do I have to add gSkin manually, and from which folder !?
I am puzzled....

Karmacop
03-15-2005, 09:08 AM
Hmm .. ok, just looking at my plugins. It seems as if gskin doesn't come with Lightwave, even though I thought it did 9because their other plugs do). Sorry :o

Hmm, just found this at http://www.luxology.com/company/engineers.aspx

"ERIC SOULVIE

Eric Soulvie has created many tools for the 3D community, including the shaders BESM and gMIL that he gave to NewTek for their inclusion with LightWave 3D [7]. BESM is an advanced cartoon rendering shader that is used extensively at Nickelodeon and other production studios. gMil is a per-surface rendering tool that provides a streamlined approach to global illumination. Eric has worked in gaming, television and film on the production side as both an animator and a tools programmer. Most recently Soulvie completed work on 3D tools for The Matrix Reloaded (The Matrix 2) and The Matrix Revolutions (The Matrix 3) at ESC Entertainment."

Kvaalen
03-15-2005, 10:32 AM
Most of those SSS shaders just fake the look, even G2. . Other than OGO Hikari but it's too slow.

I remember HowardM once started a similar thread saying that the Poser cloth beats LW ClothFX (which I think might just be true).

BTW... You all know Terragen, tight?
http://planetside.co.uk/terragen/tgd/gallery/gallerypage.php?item=12&ind=6&group=

It's fake as well, but looks good and I thought it was worth mentioning. :)

lw3d23
03-15-2005, 11:17 AM
when can we have a fast sss shader like this
http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=219323 ? :rolleyes:
this one is incredible!
Hi , newtek, can we have bssrdf in next update? I hope anyone of you will listen our voice.
There is almost 4 years since the bssdrf paper by Henrik Jensen. I really wonder when we can have such nice SSS with LW?

Celshader
03-15-2005, 11:27 AM
I remember HowardM once started a similar thread saying that the Poser cloth beats LW ClothFX (which I think might just be true).

I'll believe that when I see it. I'm convinced that the #1 thing that plagues LW's dynamics right now is weak documentation. You can't program a VCR without a clear manual. ;)

Tesselator
03-15-2005, 10:31 PM
You got me curious, so I glanced over my shoulder and asked Dave Jerrard: "G2 (http://www.worley.com/G2/g2_main.html#startit) can do SSS...right? It just means you have to spend extra money on top of the $1250 (http://www.sharbor.com/products/NTKN0300082.html) that you normally pay for LightWave."

"Sure. There's also the Coffee (http://koti.mbnet.fi/anttij77/Plugins/Coffee.html) shader."

"Coffee shader?"

"Yup, and it's free! Another free one's the Ska (http://www.flay.com/GetDetail.cfm?ID=1255) shader, and a new one just came out called ChanLum (http://www.flay.com/GetDetail.CFM?ID=2120). I think LightWave also comes with a built-in SSS shader called gSkin."

"Oh. Cool. Is gSkin tough to use?"

"Y'gotta play around with it a little bit. OGO_Hikari (http://www.flay.com/GetDetail.cfm?ID=1276) does SSS, too."

"Neat. Where'd you find all of these?"

"I did a search on Flay (http://www.flay.com/getentry.cfm) a while back for SSS shaders."

"Ah. Cool."



Of the ones named here I'm pretty sure only OGO_Hikari is
really SSS. The others are SSS-like effects and don't really
look much like real SSS at all... I know, Steve "says" G2 is
SSS but it isn't... So besides OGO they are just mostly
modifying the luminosity channel based on thickness.
Only CharLum by Antti J. goes beyond that simple hack
to to offer something a little closer to real SSS afaik.

Further LW cannot have real SSS without an enormous
speed hit like in the OGO plugin. It's just the way LW
currently works. This could be rectified with very little
effort and while it hasn't been done yet it may be
planned in a future release. OGO Hikari users will
know when/if the rectification takes place because
thier plug-in will speed up about ten fold as minimum -
So will allot of other stuff btw, like GI. :D


:cool:

Tesselator
03-16-2005, 12:09 AM
when can we have a fast sss shader like this
http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=219323 ? :rolleyes:
this one is incredible!
Hi , newtek, can we have bssrdf in next update? I hope anyone of you will listen our voice.
There is almost 4 years since the bssdrf paper by Henrik Jensen. I really wonder when we can have such nice SSS with LW?



Well there's allot more there going on than just SSS.
Actually I would venture to say that SSS if it was even
used in that (I didn't read the thread) is probably the
least contributing factor anoung the various attributes
that make that look so awesome.

Here's one in LW BTW:
http://forum.simplylightwave.com/showthread.php?threadid=93&perpage=15&pagenumber=1
http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=46897

the maps (plural!!), gradients, and procedurals used for each
channel: color, bump, spec, lumenosity, and translucency
(listed here in order of importance), and how they are
mixed far outweigh the extremely subtle affects of SSS
for skin surfacing.


:cool:

Red_Oddity
03-16-2005, 04:58 AM
When we're talking about SSS here, what model do we talk about?

What does G2 use, and what does OGO_Hikari use?

I personally would like see a properly implemented version of Henrik Wann Jensen's BSSRDF (Bidirectional Surface Scattering Distribution Function), but as far as i have understood this is impossible because of the SDK limitations (something about RayCast not returning the correct data?)

for BSSRDF see : http://www.tml.hut.fi/Opinnot/Tik-111.500/2002/paperit/kalle_koutajoki.pdf

Lottmedia
03-16-2005, 01:40 PM
Never had this much response before. Too bad no one jumped on my procedural question like this one ...(hint, hint) After the first response I thought there was just going to be the "oh look, someone asked a question, let's slam them" kind of thing. I'm aware of all (almost) the various plugins listed but they all fall short. Hakari is nice, unless you wanna do animation. That new Cham one seems good but it's still in it's infancy ( I assume) and the documentations is sparse. I've played with it but not really goten any good results from it yet. Wish someone would do a good tut.

Just to be clear, NOT SLAMMIN LIGHTWAVE. Everytime someone makes a coment like this people come out swinging advocating this or that plug-in. Just blew my mind when I got the infor on Poser 6 having SSS (obviously a workaround) but if SSS is now filtering down to such a low end package I find it intresting that LW donen't have any native implementation.

Anyway

J-Rod

Tesselator
03-17-2005, 01:51 AM
Never had this much response before. Too bad no one jumped on my procedural question like this one ...(hint, hint) After the first response I thought there was just going to be the "oh look, someone asked a question, let's slam them" kind of thing. I'm aware of all (almost) the various plugins listed but they all fall short. Hakari is nice, unless you wanna do animation. That new Cham one seems good but it's still in it's infancy ( I assume) and the documentations is sparse. I've played with it but not really goten any good results from it yet. Wish someone would do a good tut.

Just to be clear, NOT SLAMMIN LIGHTWAVE. Everytime someone makes a coment like this people come out swinging advocating this or that plug-in. Just blew my mind when I got the infor on Poser 6 having SSS (obviously a workaround) but if SSS is now filtering down to such a low end package I find it intresting that LW donen't have any native implementation.

Anyway

J-Rod


Swinging? Slamming? Naw, don't read into it anything
more than is actually there. It's just a discussion and
really nothing more than that. It could still be a nice
one too educating on the finner points and differences
of SSS, and fakes. What people are happy with and
what is still left for want.

My only wish is that there would be a general understanding
that the fakes we have are just that - fakes, and that
real SSS BSSRDF chief amoung them, look allot different
when used properly. Also I'd like to communicate that
SSS when used correctly for things like skin is so very
very subtle. It adds just a hint of lighting realism to
your model. IMO for the typical animations we make
for TV, web, archi, game, and etc. it's all but usless. Well
I sould probably qualify that: It's not nearly as important
as just properly lighting your scene and using appropriate
maps and techniques on such surface channels as Color,
Spec, and Bump - all of which have a dramatic impact
on the final image as opposed to extremely subtle
nuances.

I don't find it mind blowing or in the least bit suprising
that NewTek has not added SSS to Lightwave's feature
set. The technique only became "mainstream" just a
few short years ago. For restaffing issues and etc. NT
has had a flat spot in development for just about that
long. I can live without SSS for a very long time to
come whereas features like Normal Mapping, Subpixel
Displacements, better UV mapping algorithms, and etc.
that are in daily use and in demand by professionals in
those respective industries are (I would hope) of a much
greater consern.

BTW, what "procedural question" of yours are you talking
about that didn't get a responce? Link please. :D

:cool: