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mlowes
04-18-2003, 02:13 PM
I've read the VT3 product information pages, and just watched the interview of Andrew Cross.

To confirm, Andrew stated that VT3 will not have realtime DV output through firewire at this time, nor will it output timecode through firewire, but WILL CAPTURE timecode through firewire (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). I'm a little confused. What then will be the procedure for getting finished projects recorded back to a DV tape ?

To quote NewTek's information page...

"Proprietary codecs are used to decompress and compress all DV data with no reliance on the performance of the default codecs that are available with the operating system. All DV decoding and encoding information is performed in native YUV with no color conversion operations."

So this means we can do realtime capture of a firewire DV source, and keep it in the DV codec without recompression in Toaster Edit. Then I add some transitions, some uncompressed animations etc. Then do I render the entire project to DV within Toaster Edit, or do I have to use a 3rd party app ?

If we have "proprietary" DV codecs in VT3 to compress DV, I presume we can stay in VT3. But will it RECOMPRESS the entire project in VT3 (causing an un-needed compression cycle to the footage), or just the sections that have been changed with effects and the new uncompressed additions ?

Either way, once I have my finished project entirely in the DV codec, now can I output DV out the firewire cable to my DV deck within VT3, or must I use a 3rd party app ?

How can I record to the DV deck with firewire deck control, if I can't output timecode from VT3 through the firewire cable ?

And yes I'm aware I could have a DV deck with RS-232 control, and just record through the Y/C inputs on the deck. I'm looking at buying a new DV deck, and wondering if I'm going to need a RS-232 port on the deck in addition to normal firewire deck control.

Thanks in advance folks.

ScorpioProd
04-18-2003, 02:31 PM
As for the deck control, I believe you meant to say RS-422, not RS-232.

And yes, if you want to get DV out of the Toaster, you need to render your project to a DV clip.

And yes, that does require recompressing parts of clips that you haven't touched, and I agree, I wish that wasn't so, too.

And lastly, AFAIK, you would still need a third-party utility to put the DV out to tape.

The improvements in DV support are mainly in the input more than the output part.

Kurt_Henning
04-18-2003, 03:26 PM
Yeah, Iwant it too.

There is the www.toastersupport.com interview with Across and he hints at it -- so it is coming.

when is anyones guess. They know we need it and overall our product should look better with 1EE1394 transfer

mlowes
04-18-2003, 03:56 PM
Ooops, yes I meant RS-422 not 232, thanks ScorpioProd.

It's really too bad they don't have the firewire connections all worked out yet. I understand the toaster is all about uncompressed quality, which is great, but when it's time to output to tape I just don't have the $$ for an uncompressed tape format for both VTR's and cameras.

I doubt the majority of Toaster users are using Digital Betacam, Digital-S (can't remember what they renamed it to, D9 ?), or DVC-50. Betacam, sure. But I'm not going to run out and buy betacam equipment at this point in time, and everyone brings me mini-DV's to edit these days.

The record through the Y/C inputs would be a reasonable solution if DV deck manufacturers put as much thought into analog I/O quality as NewTek did. I just don't want to trust the ADC quality in a 1500 dollar mini-DV deck.

Just a matter of time I suppose until they have realtime DV ouput ironed out. I wonder how many customers who read NewTek's info on the VT3 will come to the same mis-conclusion as I did that they can output back to their DV decks through the firewire cable with no quality loss of un-edited footage (all inside VT3), same as almost every other solution.

I think I'll wait until a patch fixes this feature request before I jump from VT2 to VT3. VT2 works well for what I do right now, except in the DV I/O department and batch capture. I'll take them both at once if I can.

Faraz
04-19-2003, 10:08 AM
One thing I'd like to add...

I was looking through Toaster plug-ins at NAB on Toaster 3. Guess what I found?

DVOutput.Toast

From the name of the plug-in and the hints from Andrew, I think that NewTek is working on realtime DV out.

If you don't believe me about the plug-in, then I'll post a screenshot later, of the plug-in in the folder. I just can't find that picture..

Just my oppinion-

ScorpioProd
04-19-2003, 03:43 PM
It makes total sense that they're working on it, it's just not something I see coming short term, as in T[3.0].

The thing to remember, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but I know of NO software only system that can do this. Now again, I mean doing actual effects and transitions while outputing full quality DV out the firewire port. All the solutions that I know that do this use a hardware encoder for it, which isn't a bad idea.

The only software-only method close to this is with little ol' Premiere, which wisely doesn't need to render clips or parts of clips that haven't been "touched". But Toaster doesn't work this way, so that doesn't help us. And anything "touched" would still need to render in Premiere.

SBowie
04-19-2003, 03:50 PM
Actually, numerous claims of "realtime effects" to the side, there is only small handful of hdwe. based NLE's that actually ARE capable of live DV out without at least some rendering. Of course even these few can be pushed into situations that call for rendering, too, but that's not what I mean.

ScorpioProd
04-19-2003, 07:23 PM
Well, but that's not exactly what I mean either.

IF a software/hardware system simply has a DV encoder chip, then you are guaranteed REAL-TIME DV via FIREWIRE 100% of the time. The software part simply controls whether you will be able to support the transitions, effects, layers that feed that chip in real-time or not, and this is an important distinction.

This is the way that the Canopus DV Storm 2 works and I think it is honestly the optimal way to do DV in real-time.

I would LOVE to be able to buy a simple little DV encoder card to mount on the Toaster, but there isn't one available.

I'm not looking for hardware to do ANYTHING except ENCODE the DV. I work entirely in DV/DVCAM and I would gladly pay $500 for a DV encoding daughtercard to do that.

Sure, Newtek will be able to make Toaster do this in software for the FUTURE, but at what cost of other real-time parts of the NLE? Those CPU cycles have to come from somewhere.

I've been suggesting a DV Storm style DV encoder since the beginning, but Newtek wants to stay "pure" software with Toaster. Again, for this specific little purpose, hardware is better, period.

If the "higher end" market doesn't want anything to do with "DV", well, they don't have to buy the daughter card. Just like I can't see myself ever buying an SDI or genlock card.

SBowie
04-19-2003, 10:05 PM
Originally posted by ScorpioProd

This is the way that the Canopus DV Storm 2 works and I think it is honestly the optimal way to do DV in real-time. Yeah, that's one of the small handfull I had in mind.

Dillon
04-20-2003, 02:10 PM
I just watched the Andrew Cross interview that is at toastersupport.com (good job Faraz!)...

Andrew mentions that they are definitely working on realtime DV output for the toaster. He said something to the effect of "its not fully functional YET - emphasis on the YET". This is not a direct quote, but its in the interview.

Would be SWEET if this were to be part of the T3 package

Rock on NewTek!

Dillon

Paul Lara
04-20-2003, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by Dillon
I Would be SWEET if [real-time DV out] were to be part of the T3 package

Well, look how many new features 'came to life' during the time that we offered 7 free updates during VT2!

Dillon
04-20-2003, 07:07 PM
Paul,

I love your ability to be subtle with your hints :)


Dillon

mlowes
04-21-2003, 01:16 AM
I shall wait with baited breath for the realtime DV out feature for VT3... sounds great Paul.
That's all that is holding me back for the upgrade to VT3.

I wonder how many streams of DV my P4 2400 could decompress in realtime ?
I'm hoping for three with the new codec, but I think I'll be lucky to get two.

ScorpioProd
04-21-2003, 03:55 AM
Well, I think real-time DV out will be a useful feature, but I definately don't think it's something to hold off upgrading to VT[3] for if you have a VT[2] now! The myrid of new features in VT[3] are certainly worth the upgrade price right now. I've seen them at NAB, they are awesome!

Don't know how to directly relate this to your CPU, but with my dual-Xeon 2.8 I have no problem decoding FOUR DV streams in T[2]. :)

Or four RTV, M-JPEG and DV in any combination, for that matter... :D

johnq
04-21-2003, 10:59 AM
I'm just curious why you don't get an external DV convertor, such as the DataVideo DAC2. It takes component I/O and gives DV in or out depending on your need. It is now selling for about $500 and has gotten some OK reviews. At the low end, there is a new ADS Pyro A/V Link that can take component In and give DV out that has a street price of $229 (Tiger Direct). At the higher end there is the Promax format covertor (about $1800) but it has XLR audio I/O and can convert RS422 analog Time Code to DV TC. The Promax also does SDI and convert that to DV.

john