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View Full Version : Lightwave Needs A Price Drop!



homeboy0358
03-08-2005, 05:33 PM
Well before anyone gets mad, just listen. MAYA complete costs $1,999 okay. As far as I know MAYA is the industry leading software followed by 3D Studio Max. That is if I am correct only $300 more than Lightwave. HUMMM. Also Cinema 4D produces better results than Lightwave and only cost $ 600. Before you get mad Cinema 4D does produce better rusults. What I mean is it has a better renderer. I noticed today on CGTALK a car rendered using Mental ray or Brazil. It was rendered in 49 seconds. The same car would take lightwave about 8 hours and still not get the same results. DO SOMETHING NEWTEK... anyway... I will provide the link if anyone cares. I think a fare price for Lightwave 8 would be somewhere around $999.95. I GARENTEE that lightwave would see an increase in its sales. As far as I am conserned if I was to pic lightwave over all programs it would have to be cheaper than software better than it. If your smart you wont be a Lightwave fan boy and buy it because that is all you want to learn.

Discuss, and dont getmad because someone finaly told the TRUTH.

pauland
03-08-2005, 05:58 PM
Zzzzzzzzzzzz

bobakabob
03-08-2005, 06:02 PM
homeboy0358,

Don't you read the news? And watch out for the Grammar Police...

Mdust
03-08-2005, 07:22 PM
Discuss, and dont getmad because someone finaly told the TRUTH.

OK,

First if all Maya "Complete" is not complete.

Just for the record: (copied from their website)

Maya Complete 6 - node-locked U.S. $1999 Euro €2099 GBP£1449 Yen ¥266,000

Integrates the world’s foremost modeling, animation, visual effects, and advanced rendering technologies into one complete workflow solution. It’s the most comprehensive 3D software that handles massive datasets and produces professional-quality graphics on desktop PCs or graphics workstations.

Maya Unlimited 6 - node-locked U.S. $6999 Euro €7349 GBP£4899 Yen ¥930,000

The ultimate version of Maya. It’s the choice of digital content creators who want to take their 3D projects to the most advanced level. Maya Unlimited includes all of the integrated tools and functionality in Maya Complete and adds these industry leading innovations: Maya Fluid Effects™; Maya Cloth; Maya Hair; Maya Fur, and Maya Live. Create superior digital content!

Now, I am not mad but you should be, you've been hoodwinked, hornswoggled, bamboozled I tell you! get off that chair and write to your congressman/woman!

But don't feel stupid, we all make mistakes and it is that which marketing phrases and buzzwords such as "complete" are created to do: Fool you!

A brief hystory is that it has been Newtek who has been the leader as far as price/features for over twenty years.

Finally Alias - and others - just had to give in and offer watered-down versions so as to appear to be competiton. But as the fine print reads, you don't get all of the features including things such as cloth unless you purchase Unlimited.

Now this is not an argument as to which is better. But if you want to say it's competition - well it isn't. Competition is at or around the same price (give or take a hundred) with the same or more features.

Hey Maya looks cool to me I wouldn't mind the luxery of being able to own it and have a choice.

But if you research further you'll find the same marketing ploys with many other packages out there.

Mdust

theo
03-08-2005, 08:02 PM
Well before anyone gets mad, just listen. MAYA complete costs $1,999 okay. As far as I know MAYA is the industry leading software followed by 3D Studio Max. That is if I am correct only $300 more than Lightwave. HUMMM. Also Cinema 4D produces better results than Lightwave and only cost $ 600. Before you get mad Cinema 4D does produce better rusults. What I mean is it has a better renderer. I noticed today on CGTALK a car rendered using Mental ray or Brazil. It was rendered in 49 seconds. The same car would take lightwave about 8 hours and still not get the same results. DO SOMETHING NEWTEK... anyway... I will provide the link if anyone cares. I think a fare price for Lightwave 8 would be somewhere around $999.95. I GARENTEE that lightwave would see an increase in its sales. As far as I am conserned if I was to pic lightwave over all programs it would have to be cheaper than software better than it. If your smart you wont be a Lightwave fan boy and buy it because that is all you want to learn.

Discuss, and dont getmad because someone finaly told the TRUTH.

Ahhh what a speciman..... a true vapid varix.

wacom
03-08-2005, 09:44 PM
Don't get mad or get out your wallet just yet- someone is going to tell you the TRUTH!

Do you really think that 95% of LW users don't already know quite a bit about or use other packages?

While I do find C4D a very nice package, I can't say that it's renderer is better than LW. Yes it is faster in some instances...but to tell you the truth many of the renders done with it cut some REAL corners for the sake of simplisity and or speed. Vray renders can have the same problems. Things in the LW gallery, Maxwell and in good MR galleries often DO look real...C4D...very close...but...

Every heard of render nodes? When you're doing hi-rez animations you'll come to love them when they are FREE. Keeps the farms cheap...try price'n that one out.

So lets price it out:

The R9 XL bundle (not the studio one) costs $1895 and comes with

# MOCCA
# Advanced Render
# Thinking Particles
# PyroCluster
# NET Render (3 clients license)

hmmm...

While I'd like to have Sub pixel displacment and Ngons I'm not quite ready to spend that much for it...there are other packages that do just as much for FAR less. Even in teh XL bundle you don't get stuff like the dynamics engine...shame.

The base C4D with the advanced renderer is $1,200 bucks...and leaves a lot out.

What were you smoke'n when you gave us the $600 figure?

Besides don't you read the front page? LW is having a price drop- at least for those who own something else. So why don't you do us a favor and buy XSI Foundation and LW for under 1000 and go stuff your face full of pixels.

PS- what you've said has been said 1,000,000 times before so don't worry you aren't bursting our bubble.

MooseDog
03-08-2005, 10:17 PM
homeboy0358

my, my :)

well, i'll just say, your lucid, well researched expose has certainly opened my eyes. thank you for taking the time to type such an insightful :rolleyes: product review.

**end of rant, and beginning of daily prayer that schools here turn again to teaching english. sheesh**

Fausto
03-08-2005, 10:22 PM
There are advantages and disadvantages, or should I say areas of strength and areas of weakness for all 3D packages. Pound for pound LW brings more to the table for less dough. Does this mean that everything is peachy, not in your life, but the same can be said for all other packages. In some cases, the toolset is more expansive, but not as flexible, or forces a workflow on you that isn't conducive to good work. In other cases, you have a faster renderer but have to pay dearly for some of the functionality that comes as one package with LW. Cinema is faster, as one person stated in some cases, but to equip Cinema with the same level of functionality as LW you'll pay dearly. Each to his own, for me LW is infuriating and exhilarating all at the same time.

prospector
03-08-2005, 11:44 PM
8 posts and your already talkin trash homeboy?

You need to be on these forums for years before you should be able to say those things.
But then what you said is nothing new.
We've heard and seen all the rumors,newsstories,inuendos, since the downfall of the GREATEST computer the world has ever had that Newtek is going belly up now, it costs too much, they need to do this and that because every other program has it, it needs to be 1 app cuz every other program is..........
yes yes all been said before and I got the T shirt that says Newtek survived it.

Dollar for Dollar, those other so called 3D programs couldn't kiss LW feet, or foot null, or any thing else lower in the heirarchy.

So..... Fanboy??

U betcha, after surfing the LightWave since ver 3 and when the others were just drips on LWs legs, or leg muscles, or leg bones, riding the ups and downs, waiting in antisipation while they moved from Topeka to San Antonio where I got to meet the LW gods, they are STILL here and going strong.

And if you are going to compare prices...get the facts right first

Oh yea..
if I wanted a 999 machine render farm on those other programs...how much would it cost me?

You see...thier renderers might be a tad faster, but I can still whip 10,000 frames out faster for less money, ya see, render nodes are FREE in LW.

Mylenium
03-08-2005, 11:53 PM
Well before anyone gets mad, just listen. MAYA complete costs $1,999 okay. As far as I know MAYA is the industry leading software followed by 3D Studio Max. That is if I am correct only $300 more than Lightwave. HUMMM. Also Cinema 4D produces better results than Lightwave and only cost $ 600. Before you get mad Cinema 4D does produce better rusults. What I mean is it has a better renderer. I noticed today on CGTALK a car rendered using Mental ray or Brazil. It was rendered in 49 seconds. The same car would take lightwave about 8 hours and still not get the same results. DO SOMETHING NEWTEK... anyway... I will provide the link if anyone cares. I think a fare price for Lightwave 8 would be somewhere around $999.95. I GARENTEE that lightwave would see an increase in its sales. As far as I am conserned if I was to pic lightwave over all programs it would have to be cheaper than software better than it. If your smart you wont be a Lightwave fan boy and buy it because that is all you want to learn.

Discuss, and dont getmad because someone finaly told the TRUTH.

*lol* you should turn red and feel embarassed as hell. From this day on noone will ever take one of your words seriously. Yes, many things are bad in LW-land, but it's not bells and whistles only with the other apps, also (I'm also a Maya and modo user and have used Cinema4D for years; considering getting my own license of C4D some time this year). While I don't share the others' views in some parts, the pricing is the least you can criticize. You can get LW as cheap as 495 bucks these days and even with no special sales there is always some dealer or eBay where you can pick it up for a similarly low price. Honestly I even think LW is far too cheap. Perhaps we would see faster development if it cost a bit more. And no, people don't stay away from LW because of the price, they stay away because they can't integrate it into their work pipeline (this is a polite version, more honest would be: So many things are screwed, it's simply not worthwhile to attempt certain things [but let's not start another war here]). Even if you gave it away for free on a bonus CD/ DVD on some mag, it wouldn't be used by more people.

Mylenium

toma
03-09-2005, 01:02 AM
Honestly I even think LW is far too cheap. Perhaps we would see faster development if it cost a bit more.

I'm with you ! I think lightwave is too cheap ! :cool:

every lw user have to find workarounds because so many tools are not very well integrated user friendly or just plain buggy… but anyway, every thing we need is there (tho subpixel/micropoly will be welcome).

my feeling is that newtek should use a similar approach to all its competitors : XSI, maya and C4D all have at least three configurations, from hobbyist to high profile, with more or less an according price tag.

- lightwave as it is is worth the thousand euro/dollard you have to spend for it. (I'm talking of lightwave standard with printed manual, no special offer = 1695$)

- maybe newtek should reintroduce inspire 3D at 500$ (call it LW complete home fondation!)

- my hope would be newtek to release a super lightwave (more power, better integration, better testing=fewer bugs) for a lightwave like this, I wouldn't mind to spend an extra…(call it lightwave advanced & unlimited studio)

imagine :

the money you make is tied to the tool you use, lightwave as it is can make more than 70K€/year with a single license, I think that if those 70K€ could be made faster, smarter and without having to strugle with lw limitations, issue or bugs, I wouldn't mind to spend 3 or 4 thousand $/€ for such a tool.

don't make me say what I don't say, lightwave's price is OK, nobody would spend 4K for such a software.

Now read the lightwave 8 feature list, add the feature request, and say that all those features just work as expected even in the most extreme situation (high res, billions of poly, network rendering and so on), is 3 or 4k really to much ? :rolleyes:

thomas

mkiii
03-09-2005, 01:43 AM
I'm upset that he left out XSI Foundation....... now that is a bit of a bargain, and I suspect may be the reason for the current LW pricing.

What about Blender? cmon... how can LW possible carry on selling when there is a free package out there?.... strangely it does though.

Homeboy... good attempt at trying to wind up the forum.... but you only score 3/10 because of a woeful lack of research & a very loose grasp of the definition of the word truth. ;)

Mylenium
03-09-2005, 03:28 AM
I'm upset that he left out XSI Foundation....... now that is a bit of a bargain, and I suspect may be the reason for the current LW pricing.

What about Blender? cmon... how can LW possible carry on selling when there is a free package out there?.... strangely it does though.

Homeboy... good attempt at trying to wind up the forum.... but you only score 3/10 because of a woeful lack of research & a very loose grasp of the definition of the word truth. ;)

Well said ;o).

Mylenium

Exception
03-09-2005, 04:10 AM
Homeboy... good attempt at trying to wind up the forum.... but you only score 3/10 because of a woeful lack of research & a very loose grasp of the definition of the word truth. ;)

What about making it obligatory for the forum regulars to post a horrible flame inducing but perhaps constructively critical post in turn?
We then flame the hell out of him/her knwoing that we all love eachother anyways, and love our Lightwave even more because of it, and afterward we grade eachother on how well we did?

It'd keep the forum alive... :p

LAV
03-09-2005, 04:14 AM
Oh boys! I think lightwave is cheap for the power. Maybe becouse I used LW for a lot, Max for a lot, Maya just for two days... I try Lw be most effective ... ... .... in feeling and productivity and lightness and quality and imagination and :)

LW is the zen way to fall in love with

Gui Lo
03-09-2005, 04:17 AM
homeboy0358
Since people will often buy 3d packages for different reasons it is very difficult to define a "typical user".

I think Newtek has got it's pricing policy for LW right. It is affordable to the serious amateur, allows the professional studio to use it additional to other packages while able to meet income recquirements.

Every 1 1/2 years we get this kind of great pricing deal where almost any professional can afford LW.

Like I said, some people buy LW for different reasons. Most I guess like the modeler and consider that worth the price. Some studios prefer the renderer and just use that. We tend to read so much about the weakness of the renderer in these forums but companies who can afford other renderers still choose LW.

Gui Lo

Nemoid
03-09-2005, 05:27 AM
i think Lw has the right price. its affordable for the solo users and give you all the tools you need to make great works.

the only app that is very low price, yet powerful is XSI foundation. but there are also other versions of XSI wich cost alot more.

hey , this being said, if Nt makes great discounts on Lw i'll be happy however. :D

P.S. i appreciete very much the discount on new Lw seats. for 495 $

lunarcamel
03-09-2005, 06:28 AM
It's disappointing that you need to spend ohh $300 to render to a .swf, $500 for the full hair solution, $395 for Fprime if you need to speed up the occasional render/preview etc - so really just like every other app LW is not that cheap. Out of the box though it does give the hobbiest a lot to play with and for all the years I've been using it I don't think an upgrade has cost more then $495.

I'd actually be willing to pay more if they started to include some of the above mentioned features - dare I say it - have like a LW 'Unlimited' or something like that :rolleyes:

homeboy0358
03-09-2005, 06:52 AM
WOW, some of you guys are getting pritty effensive... Look at when I joined the forums I have been on here longer than a year. MAYBE you should be the one researching. Anyway, I guess you guys are right. All I am saying is Lightwave doesn't put out images like 3D Studio Max, Maya, or XSI even C4D. You say you get alot of bang for your buck well how come alot of studios no longer use it.

mattclary
03-09-2005, 06:57 AM
All I am saying is Lightwave doesn't put out images like 3D Studio Max, Maya, or XSI even C4D


Quit your trolling. If you want to use those other products, why are you here? Oh, wait, let me say it for you: "I'm a long time LW user, and I LOVE LightWave. I just want to give Newtek feedback so it can make LightWave better"

jevinstudios
03-09-2005, 07:20 AM
Well before anyone gets mad, just listen. MAYA complete costs $1,999 okay. As far as I know MAYA is the industry leading software followed by 3D Studio Max. That is if I am correct only $300 more than Lightwave. HUMMM. Also Cinema 4D produces better results than Lightwave and only cost $ 600. Before you get mad Cinema 4D does produce better rusults. What I mean is it has a better renderer. I noticed today on CGTALK a car rendered using Mental ray or Brazil. It was rendered in 49 seconds. The same car would take lightwave about 8 hours and still not get the same results. DO SOMETHING NEWTEK... anyway... I will provide the link if anyone cares. I think a fare price for Lightwave 8 would be somewhere around $999.95. I GARENTEE that lightwave would see an increase in its sales. As far as I am conserned if I was to pic lightwave over all programs it would have to be cheaper than software better than it. If your smart you wont be a Lightwave fan boy and buy it because that is all you want to learn.

Discuss, and dont getmad because someone finaly told the TRUTH.


Ridiculous.

These type of threads are misleading, unhelpful, and have no place in the NewTek forums and should be promptly removed. We're all tired of them.

PLEASE, go buy other software and leave this forum and LightWave to true professionals and hobbyists who enjoy this product and the wonderful benefits it offers at the most competitive and reasonable price in the business!

Signal to Noise
03-09-2005, 07:47 AM
...BLAH, BLAH, BLAH... All I am saying is Lightwave doesn't put out images like 3D Studio Max, Maya, or XSI even C4D. ...BLAH, BLAH, BLAH...

Yes, in most respects LW's rendering output by default is much better. However, and it's a big HOWEVER, the final output of whatever image in whatever program is determined by the abilities of the user.

Brian Arndt
03-09-2005, 08:15 AM
LightWave 3D [8]® - Electronic Full - Competitive Upgrade
Special offer expires April 30, 2005!

Mac/Win USB Duo Dongle

This version will ship in a box with the following materials:

* LightWave 3D [8] Program CD
* LightWave 3D [8] Content CD 1 & 2
* LightWave 3D [8] 3rd Party Sampler CD
* Complete Reference in Electronic Form
* LightWave 3D [8] Printed Tutorial Manual
* Mac/PC DUO USB Dongle

Please Note: You must own one of the following competitive products to qualify for this offer. You will be asked to provide proof of ownership before shipping.
Maya™, Softimage™ XSI, 3ds max®, Electric Image™, Strata Studio Pro™, Cinema 4D™, Truespace™, Hash Animation Master™, Autocad®, Pro/Engineer® and SolidWorks®

$495

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LightWave 3D [8]® - Standard Full - Competitive Upgrade
Special offer expires April 30, 2005!

Mac/Win USB Duo Dongle

This version will ship in a box with the following materials:

* LightWave 3D [8] Program CD
* LightWave 3D [8] Content CD 1 & 2
* LightWave 3D [8] 3rd Party Sampler CD
* Complete Reference in Electronic Form
* LightWave 3D [8] Printed Reference Manual
* LightWave 3D [8] Printed Tutorial Manual
* Mac/PC DUO USB Dongle

Please Note: You must own one of the following competitive products to qualify for this offer. You will be asked to provide proof of ownership before shipping.
Maya™, Softimage™ XSI, 3ds max®, Electric Image™, Strata Studio Pro™, Cinema 4D™, Truespace™, Hash Animation Master™, Autocad®, Pro/Engineer® and SolidWorks®

$595


:D :D

colkai
03-09-2005, 08:58 AM
Quit your trolling.

Funny thing is - he says LW doesn't produce good renders - but in one of his few posts here - he repiled to a thread " How did you achieve such a render?... Looks top notch to me... How long did it take?"

Hmm - so LW produces top notch renders ..it's just that they aren't that good ..oh wait ...errr.... :p ;)

As to being on here a year indicating your knowledge - there are folks how registered here many moons ago who've yet to make a contribution at all, so not really an indicator.

UnCommonGrafx
03-09-2005, 09:12 AM
Mods,
Please delete this misguided souls mental dump from our midst. Truly, we all know what we have and this truly will irritate many of us.
This is a marketeer of some kind. My only question is: how many pages before we see what's being sold...

theo
03-09-2005, 09:25 AM
I don't know guys.....Homey may have a point here.......I truly think that if Newtek sells Lightwave for a mere five dollars per seat that would go a long way towards
putting Newtek on top of the heap that they are at the bottom of right now, a heap that is crushing all of the juices out of their creative miserable little bodies....

Just think- if six people buy Lightwave that translates into a massive influx of cash in the range of thirty dollars. Oh my gosh this is fun -ahahhaoohhhaoahaohaoaha..........100 people equals a massive influx of 600 dollars..........ahaahhhhaaahahahhhaaa (sweating profusely, eyes darting about madly)..........and, and, and 200 people equals a massive influx of, of, of - OH MY GOD......!!!! 1200 DOLLARS!!! (shaking hystrically with rabid excitment) ohahhaohohahhhhahhoahh THEY COULD GET RICH THIS WAY!!!!!!!!....................................Jus t think of all the MIT grads they could hire!!!!!!!!!!!! And the software would just grow by leaps and bounds and the world would FINALLY BE NIRVANIZED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (collapses in a sobbing heap of climactic exhaustion )......

;) For the overly staid (fancy word for sober)- you must know that I jest sarcastically of course!

Marcia
03-09-2005, 09:42 AM
Have to agree that LW is a GREAT value. Did anyone mention that 3DS Studio Max costs right at $3,500? And that's for a non-transferrable license. That's right--you can never sell your $3,500 copy of Max, even if you jump ship to LightWave. :D

BTW, on that competitive upgrade offer... can I take advantage of it if I'm already a LW owner? I have the Mac-only installation disks of 7.5 and also have Strata Studio Pro (now Strata CX). If I want a separate seat for my PC, can I get it under the competitive upgrade?

Marcia
03-09-2005, 09:46 AM
I don't know guys.....Homey may have a point here.......I truly think that if Newtek sells Lightwave for a mere five dollars per seat that would go a long way towards
putting Newtek on top of the heap that they are at the bottom of right now, a heap that is crushing all of the juices out of their creative miserable little bodies....

Just think- if six people buy Lightwave that translates into a massive influx of cash in the range of thirty dollars. Oh my gosh this is fun -ahahhaoohhhaoahaohaoaha..........100 people equals a massive influx of 600 dollars
;)

Oooh, yeah. Great idea! Sadly, with the new, low price, NewTek will be forced to cut staff, so those bug fixes and next upgrade may be delayed a little while...

Wade
03-09-2005, 10:45 AM
Have to agree that LW is a GREAT value. Did anyone mention that 3DS Studio Max costs right at $3,500? And that's for a non-transferrable license. That's right--you can never sell your $3,500 copy of Max, even if you jump ship to LightWave. :D

BTW, on that competitive upgrade offer... can I take advantage of it if I'm already a LW owner? I have the Mac-only installation disks of 7.5 and also have Strata Studio Pro (now Strata CX). If I want a separate seat for my PC, can I get it under the competitive upgrade?


If you are an LW8 ower you can get the deal - just go to the front page and read up. I think anyone and veryone who has the means should jump on it.

richcz3
03-09-2005, 10:53 AM
If you have a curent [8] license you can buy additional seats for $495 (download). Thats mind boggeling. I am very tempted to pick up extra seats.

Irregardless of some of LW's issues, it is still the best price per feature out of the box. Sure there are plugins that need to be purchased to extend it, but that applies just as much to other apps. I personaly can not get my head or wallet around Maya or Max's cost of ownership.

hrgiger
03-09-2005, 12:21 PM
This one is far too easy. I'm going to pass and find something more challenging to respond to.

cresshead
03-09-2005, 12:23 PM
this guy's an nutter :)
lightwave has a fantastic renderer and supa dupa modeler...and the current offer will entice those with either lightwave 8 or those struggling with the render tree in xsi or the flakyness of 3dsmax or the cost of upgrading to maya 6.5 a serious pause for thought....shall i add lightwave as a solution to my problems?...

my thoughts are..yes indeeed :D

i'll be getting a new seat of lightwave before the offer runs out for sure and some of my friends will too....

now then..some one please lock this thread!

Matt
03-09-2005, 12:32 PM
If you actually compare like-for-like features vs cost, LightWave is in fact still the best deal out there!

Just been looking on www.onevideo.net and yes, the 'base' package for many competitors are cheaper, but when you add the modules needed to bring those base packages up to the feature level LightWave has, they end up being much more expensive.

Whether those modules do a better job is a personal preference, I've seen amazingly photoreal images out of all the major packages, including LightWave, and I've also seen dire results too, it's all down to who's pushing the buttons.

Ease of use is a personal preference, one user might find 3DSMax cake to use, another find it terribly inhibitive, same goes for LightWave.

But a top-of-the-line Maya or 3DSMax won't make brilliant renders with a novice user behind the wheel.

The problem is, you can only compare 3D packages to a certain level beyond that it's what YOU feel comfortable using, what features you specifically use and how much money you have in the bank.

Just my thoughts ...

Matt

Lightwolf
03-09-2005, 01:15 PM
Just my 2 cents (to bump up my number of posts a little ;) ).

I think the price is fine, especially if you consider that LW is the top of the range 3D product by NT.

...I'd still like to see tons of improvements and new features added, but that's another topic ;)

Cheers,
Mike

Fritz Arn
03-09-2005, 01:52 PM
Lightwave is indeed the best deal.
I worked with cinema4d and I can tell that the renderer of lightwave is better.

-EsHrA-
03-09-2005, 01:59 PM
this thread made me laugh ! :)

nice one.



mlon

w_will
03-09-2005, 03:35 PM
You guys have obviously missed the poor fellas point. I think your being to hard on him. He has already stated he likes the renders LW produces. I think the issue is his mom needs to increase his allowance so he can purchase a copy. We should comend his efforts to stay legal. All I can say is spring is coming and there are lots of lawns to be mowed, and value meals to be served :O) At $20 a lawn = 1000 lawns I would wish for a lower price too ;)

Safe Harbor
03-09-2005, 03:38 PM
The price HAS dropped - we're selling it for $949, upgrades for only $495! You can't beat that...

MrTinkertrain
03-09-2005, 03:50 PM
Ahhhh don't you love it when the cool breeze of the fresh morning first hit you in the face?

Ah, oh ... and I think you should close this thread, you know, nothing new, nothing constructive, that easy, that simple