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View Full Version : Pencil, Charcole, and Oil like effects Part Two



wacom
02-15-2005, 11:38 PM
Well there are some better examples down at the bottom of this thread:

http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?t=33453&highlight=Sketch

Here I have made a really crappy demo scene with a few diffrent setups- it renders the bellow image. I'd write a tutorial, but I'm still only getting my head 90% around some of these. There is no true xyz settings set since a lot is dependent on your model size, it's mesh density, and the look you want etc. The only parts to my method that are constant are animated displacement and in some examples render lines.

Two effects that I hope to get closer too soon are water colors (lots of PLD and blur length I bet) and marker rendering. I've had some OK results, but they aren't predictable at all...or useable...poooy...

I'm hope'n to see some others do some cool stuff with this and help fill in the gaps for me and everyone else (proton?)...

GregMalick
02-16-2005, 01:51 AM
Very cool... and I love the COMMENTS you left in the Surface Panel.

Very helpful - very thoughtful.

Mylenium
02-16-2005, 02:37 AM
Hey, that is so cool, man! I started doodling around with similar techniques a long time ago, but never took the time to fully explore the possibilities. You da man!

Mylenium

Exper
02-16-2005, 03:01 AM
Wacom rulez! :cool:

CB_3D
02-16-2005, 03:03 AM
Excellent thread and beautyfull techniques!!! Keep it coming,this is the most interesting stuff iīve seen on this forum for a while!!!!

I am particularilly interested in the oilpaint-like and pastel effects. gorgeous stuff!!

More More!!

CB_3D
02-16-2005, 03:27 AM
Could you load up a scene with these settings,please?
This stuff should even come with LWs native Presets, itīs that good!

colkai
02-16-2005, 04:50 AM
Luverly Stuff!
Going to have to try this out on a couple of my models.

theo
02-16-2005, 05:54 AM
This is right up my alley- outstanding work man.

It's about time we take 3D to another level. I am getting weary of photorealism..... I have a camera for that. Just kidding- but in all seriousness this is great suff wacom!

Karmacop
02-16-2005, 06:40 AM
simply amazing :eek:

Dodgy
02-16-2005, 06:40 AM
Really nice results, thanks for sharing :)

Kuzey
02-16-2005, 07:01 AM
Wonderful, this would make a great tutorial on Newtek site :D :D

Kuzey

WilliamVaughan
02-16-2005, 07:12 AM
Agreed!

Hee is a quick test....cant wait to do more with this!

Toon Dog (ftp://ftp.newtek.com/pub/LightWave/Tutorials/Vidz/toondog_web.mov)

ravantra
02-16-2005, 08:43 AM
Wow very creative stuff.....I am going to have to try this out this weekend!

Kurtis
02-16-2005, 08:50 AM
wacom,

Would you consider writing this up as a tutorial, so we can add it to our site?

policarpo
02-16-2005, 10:10 AM
pretty cool looking stuff.

how do you guys prevent the flickering from occuring during an animation?

Cheers.

cresshead
02-16-2005, 10:20 AM
yeah to have a de facto tutorial on this amazing rendering style would be fantastic.

this would add "final toon" style capability to your out of the box lightwave without any extra plugins...really a neat way to render for product design and architectual design as this then goes back to the design style and not so much the renderer of shading used...more like adding a virtual sketch artist on the render capability

very nice...whoever sorted this idea out should be praised for their efforts in pushing lightwave to the max ['scuse the punn!].

thanks for sharing :)

LAV
02-16-2005, 12:42 PM
maybe someone could write an interactive script to setup all the settings. So we can choose the drawing pen with a simple click-click from a sort of presets window.
(I'm not able to do it, of course)

.... really interesting the animation capabilities, above all!

many thanks

-NG-
02-16-2005, 01:25 PM
These are some really neat effects :) I'll make sure to try it out.

policarpo
02-16-2005, 01:28 PM
Just thought I'd post this comp of some research I am doing involving toon shaders. I really dig some of the line work that is going on, and I thought maybe it could serve as some inspiration to you guys while tweaking these effects.

Really cool and somewhat mind blowing to see this working the way it is in LW...hope the effect can be controlled during animation, cause the crawling nature I've seen so far is a little distracting (but if used effectively, it could be a cool effect as long as it was part of the storyline ya know).

Anyhoo...you can take this comp for what it is...promoting the spirit of the squiggly line and furthering the cause by example. :)

Cheers.

http://www.policarpo.us/cgi-bin/images/graphics/blog/021339-policarpo-big.jpg

wacom
02-16-2005, 01:47 PM
The "line crawl" is effected by how you animate the procedural texture. If you make it oscilate right you can get a steady line. Also uping the PLD will give you a more consistant line. I personally was going for the crawling line type animation, as in rough light table work so that every frame is unique. Don't use the morph method I tried first, use the displacement one instead. Messing with the graph editor will give you diffrent effects...as will blur length, line width, PLD level etc etc etc. Also limiting your frame count will make it MUCH more convincing.

To get a more consitant line consider this:

Get the line to oscilate at a given frame incrament, say every three frames it repeats, then set you render frame step to every third frame. You should get more consistant drawings pre a frame and less crawl this way. It's all tied to the graph editor etc.

I'd try it out, but I'm not at my system...anyone game?

StereoMike
02-16-2005, 04:32 PM
I love it waaaah!!!!

You know, I enviously looked quite a time over to a friend with his collection of cinema 4d toon shaders.... and now we all know lw can do it out of the box!
Unbelievable... it was there... all the time....
"Wacom...Columbus of Planet Lightwave"

policarpo
02-16-2005, 06:09 PM
Anyone achieve animated brush strokes yet with variable weight and density?

That would be cool.

wacom
02-16-2005, 07:24 PM
I love it waaaah!!!!

You know, I enviously looked quite a time over to a friend with his collection of cinema 4d toon shaders.... and now we all know lw can do it out of the box!
Unbelievable... it was there... all the time....
"Wacom...Columbus of Planet Lightwave"

Well Cinema's toon shader is still tops IMHO, but there is something to be said for what we might be able to do without any plugs.

On a side note: When you're using a model that has parts with vastly diffrent mesh density per part you might give each part a diffrent surface based on mesh density, that way you can control the size of your procedurals so that they match the size of you mesh better. Otherwise some parts might end up looking extreamly smudged and others like wool. The face is often going to have quite a bit compared to say...the arm etc. There probably is a way to control this with wieghts though...

wacom
02-16-2005, 08:17 PM
OK...found a problem! When using dispacment bump you seem to get a side that has less displacement than the others! This is not good. Maybe it's a 8.2 thang...we'll see. If it's there...and it's not just 8.2 we might have to go back to the jitter mode...which sucks...

hmmm....

There is a work around that envolves the displacement map option where you then apply a B&W image that is rotated, but it is far less flexable (but it does work). Anyone ever run into this for anything else?

Mylenium
02-16-2005, 11:39 PM
Well Cinema's toon shader is still tops IMHO, but there is something to be said for what we might be able to do without any plugs.


That is true, but no matter how much I like your technique and how good it looks, it's too impractical for serious projects. While the control via geometry is quite nice, it's also it's greatest weakness. You know, you wouldn't want an already massive scene to be burdened with even more polygons just to get the edges... It is similarly impractical to have to adjust the surface parameters for each object (the incidence gradients etc.) if you have several tens or hundreds of them in your scene. So having a decent toon/ artistic/ edge shader that can live up to Sketch and Toon/ finalToon one day is still a requirement for LW.

Mylenium

wacom
02-17-2005, 12:06 AM
Well at least I found a work around for the fact that bump displacement is weighted towards the Y axis the model was first modeled on! I kind of feel this is a bug...but normal displacement works better to some degree...at least it gives uniform deformation etc. and a smoother deform with less geometry. It also makes it so that it's easier to use subpatches and thus less geometry!

Mylenium-
While this technique isn't nearly as practical as a shadder would be, it can be used, for most sketchy lines at least, with very little tweaking. I've never used C4D's shadder so I don't know how easy it is to get some effects with... I have faith that we'll be able to get it a little better- but it's never going to be like C4D's toon shadder...well at least without some programing!

Still I guess since I have no choice I'll just have to keep poke'n around LW...

Mylenium
02-17-2005, 02:04 AM
Mylenium- While this technique isn't nearly as practical as a shadder would be, it can be used, for most sketchy lines at least, with very little tweaking. I've never used C4D's shadder so I don't know how easy it is to get some effects with... I have faith that we'll be able to get it a little better- but it's never going to be like C4D's toon shadder...well at least without some programing!

Still I guess since I have no choice I'll just have to keep poke'n around LW...

Oh yes, please do. It's great stuff you are outputting and ever since back then, when Penello for LW was no longer around (was it ever finished and moved beyond the Beta relerases?) it's the best thing I have seen in a long time.

Mylenium

GruvSyco
02-17-2005, 03:48 AM
I think your research is coming along great. could you use a displacement map instead of increasing the geom?

Captain Obvious
02-17-2005, 04:32 AM
Awesome, just awesome. :D

Kuzey
02-17-2005, 04:48 AM
Ooooooooooh......my!!!

You know, I have this feeling someone could turn this into an actual shader and without the need of adding extra polygons.

Newtek coders....I hope you guys are following this ;)

Kuzey

policarpo
02-17-2005, 07:35 AM
You guys should just rally around together and contact Maxon and see if they can port S&T to LW at some point...they made BodyPaint available.

Worth a shot for the long term ya know.

In the meantime, great stuff Wacom! I love seeing boundries pushed, and you've inspired me to rethink some new ways of handling gradients and such. :D


Here's another quick test..just stacking stuff in the layers to get new effects. This is fun.

http://www.policarpo.us/samples/sphere2.jpg

wacom
02-17-2005, 10:44 AM
Sorry for all of these small updates and info. Once I find myself at 99% understanding of the current limitations I'll make a tutorial. Anyway...

The problem with using the bump displacement option seems to be linked to how the mesh was created. I have a feeling it has to do with vertex numbering (anyone remember how to pull up that data?). It seems that when LW creates a simple Sphere or box, the first few vertexes will recieve very little in the way of distortion.

What does this all mean? Well so far as I can take it, if you are using a "handbuilt" and complex mesh, then this problem will be very minimal based on the way you've made the model. If the model is mainly made of simple LW primitve objects then you'll run into this issue unless you use normal displacement. Normal displacement works well for creating lines, but if you have a lot of parts it isn't as flexable and you'll often need to do a hybrid of the two. Then again if it's a simple shape, say a sphere, this shouldn't prove to be a problem at all. So the good news is that for subpatched objects with a fair amount of detail add this isn't going to be a problem.

On a side note: Instead of freezing you sup-patched mesh, try reducing the the subpatch level first- this often does the trick for getting more "wild" lines (though there are other ways).

Kuzey
02-18-2005, 05:08 AM
Keep them coming!!!

Kuzey

lillmagnus
02-21-2005, 03:50 AM
Is there anyone out there that can make this into a script? I'm just starting the followup to red shoe and it would be awesome to add this effect to an object by clicking a button instead of 12.

Oh, and weightmaps is a good way to contol heave areas of the mesh from distorting to much (and make it woolly)

GregMalick
02-21-2005, 09:53 AM
I'm kinda working on another script..
But if it's simple to do I'll let you know.

List these 12 buttons you have to press (and and any values you need to put in) and I'll do one of the following::
Do it
Tell you Lscript can't to it
Tell you it's too darn hard (for me)

wacom
02-21-2005, 11:30 AM
I was hope'n that either Normal Displacment or NormalDisplacement would be able to read incendent angle gradients correctly, but they don't seem to. If they had it would enable one to only blur, fuzz or smear the edges, or give you more control. I'm thinking of puting this as a feature request as it would be useful for many things beside my attempts at natural mediums.

Right now I've finished up (for now) working on a colored pencil look. The next step is to work on shadows. This is going to require a shadow pas being made, and then that alpha being front projected back onto the animation via a background image that is perpendicular to the camera. Why go through all this trouble? Well shadow lines with perfect perspective look very CG...so turning the plae perpendicular should solve this. Regular shadows seem strange as well...so they need to be in the same or simular medium.

I'll post and example of the correct shadows as soon as I get to them.

For anyone who finds this way too time consuming I have to tell you that it really isn't that bad when you compare it to lighting a REAL scene and texturing it. There is no way, unless worley decides to, that this is every going to be a simple plug-in. At least if you want to go beyond simple pencil, sumi and charcole lines.
The other thing to remember is that once you get going you can quickly apply and tweak the textures for all of your scenes objects, only having to normaly change the size of the procedural and the colors, if any, envolved etc.

harlan
02-21-2005, 01:47 PM
The time involved in setting these up is certainly no big deal. Some people just whine for the sake of whining. ;)

We've done quite a few experiments with NPR type rendering in LW over the past few months, and while this technique makes phenomenal looking still images, it's use as an animated form is a little less appealing simply due to the jittery nature of the objects as a result of the displacements.

wacom
02-21-2005, 04:38 PM
The time involved in setting these up is certainly no big deal. Some people just whine for the sake of whining. ;)

We've done quite a few experiments with NPR type rendering in LW over the past few months, and while this technique makes phenomenal looking still images, it's use as an animated form is a little less appealing simply due to the jittery nature of the objects as a result of the displacements.

Yeah, I'm working on it, but I'm not sure how close I'll get! I know I can limit it to only "moving" parts and objects by oscilation of the displacement, but I need to find a better way that doesn't require high PLD levels. That's why I was also bumbed when I found that I couldn't get displacement on just the outside edges via a incedent angle gradient.

Here is an small (and lame) example that uses oscilation. I figure It might be better in the end to have the texture of the object (not the displacement) to oscilate with only slight changes to each frame. This can probably be done by making the loop happen every 1.05 frames instead of at 1. This might also help prevent the "scrolling look" to the textures.

wacom
02-21-2005, 07:18 PM
Here is one with oscilation that is slightly out of phase. Now I know I'm not going crazy here with the displacement, but it seems to be fine. I'd say that if the object was something that was going to be animated (IE it's moving- not just the camera) I'd use a slightly out of phase line, if it was stationary however (like a house) I might keep it in phase. That seems to be in keeping with how hand animation would be to some degree.

On a side note- it's a little hard to compare most of these to "real" hand drawn animation since very few people would, say, animate something shadded with color pencils running at 30fps.


PS this example is EXTREAMLY compressed (VBR, 2000kbs, MPEG2), so some of the "craw" is actully artifacts. It looks far better in the origonal.

3d360
02-21-2005, 09:44 PM
wacom, thank you for the great samples.... hope policarpo will give some hints on the nice look too. -mark

ThriJ
02-22-2005, 05:22 PM
Hey Wacom, you are some sort of a genius! Ha ha, feels kind of weird doesn’t it. :D

Okay all joking aside this is an incredible technique. The hand drawn look is extraordinary, and it also opens up whole new ways of dealing with edges that can give renders a very unique feel. Great stuff!



Sketch-Shading, Rope-Editing, Surface-Scattering, oh my!
This is how a community is supposed to be, countless people experimenting, sharing Ideas and taking development into new directions!





The eyes are freaky, but the effect works!:

theo
02-22-2005, 05:53 PM
Do you guys realize how much time Wacom has saved us by pounding out some cool ideas here? I sure as heck haven't had the time lately to beat my brains digging up stuff like this, though I have had some ideas along these lines. I just LOVE this stuff!!

I think Newtek ought to have a "Cool Technique Award" to be rewarded for hard work that is done by guys like Wacom in the forums. And then have the award graphic post to their signature so everyone can see it as well as the link to the technique in the forum.

Great job Wacom!!

Kvaalen
02-22-2005, 06:28 PM
I did a couple tests as well the other day, but didn't bother showing it. Now that I see all the talk about animation... I thought I'd show it:

Animation: http://www.kvaalen.com/misc/Staple.avi (540 kb)

and one of the frames...

http://www.kvaalen.com/misc/StapleFrame.jpg

Nice trick Wacom, thanks for sharing!

harlan
02-22-2005, 07:01 PM
umm... care to elaborate on how you reduced the flickering look of this technique?

wacom
02-22-2005, 08:36 PM
umm... care to elaborate on how you reduced the flickering look of this technique?

I'd like to know as well...though I suspect it's oscilation that's keyed to loop on each frame- that way only the things moving will change. Like in the bounce'n ball example I made maybe? The ball on the right has the same surface and normal displacement as the one on the left but only the moving ball changes.

Very cool Kvaalen! A much better animation sample that the simple spinning crap I've come up with.

wacom
02-22-2005, 09:01 PM
harlan- here is a very small (and not nearly as sexy as Kvaalen's) example of what I'm talking about. This test scene will render out changed lines ONLY when the geometry changes. Once the geometry stops changeing (ie moving a bone, morphing etc. the geometry that was moving stops jittering. This is much more like "real" animation since you don't need to redraw what isn't being "moved".

Look at what I've done in the graph editor for the normal displacement textures position.

Here is my lame example done in 8.2:

PS- I need a spell checker! It's oscillating not oscilating etc....

theo
02-22-2005, 09:11 PM
Great job Kvaalen- very cool- Gosh darnit I've got to find some dang time to test this out in depth as well!!

I am living vicariously right now! :rolleyes:

wacom
02-22-2005, 09:12 PM
I think your research is coming along great. could you use a displacement map instead of increasing the geom?

We could if we had REAL sub pixel displacement! Now that would be fun to play with!

How about some fith grade LW crayons with Sketchy cows?
This has to be the WORST image to date...but I was going for a more kid like look.
The well modeled cow betrays the look! Would your mother have put it on the fridge?

Kvaalen
02-23-2005, 03:21 AM
Glad you guys like it! :)

Wacom is right... it's simply that the texture is oscillating. Very simple yet it works.

CB_3D
02-23-2005, 06:59 AM
Oh man oh man, this has to be the coolest thread ever.

If only i wasnīt so full of work right now, iīd be playing around with this technique as well. Definitely worth a BIG tutorialpage at Lightwave3d.com!

Wacom,you have to make one big page with all the results explained. Not that this thread isnīt enough,but this stuff is SO COOL and BEAUTYFULL!

Kvaalen,would you mind loading up a scene with that surface applied? This looks very good indeed!

wacom
02-23-2005, 01:53 PM
It would be nice if people would share some of their textures they've come up with- I'd like to see how they're getting at it. I'll post my little crayon/colored pencil one soon with a scene.
-----
I've noticed that mesh density, and not size is a major factor when porting textures from a Sub patch model to a non subpatched one. You normaly have to decrease the size of the procedural quite a bit (which makes sense if you think about how dense a subpatch mesh can get).
-----
I don't want to make a tutorial until we've exhausted 90% of what we can do, and figure out what works best and when etc. I'm thinking that it will be at least a three stage one though- starting first with sketchy lines. Later ones would get into gradients and extra procedurals to make more painterly effects etc.
----
While any version of LW can be used, 8.2 is better for this stuff though since it gives you far more AA control than 7.5x.

harlan
02-23-2005, 04:02 PM
I've got some stuff coming Wacom... sorta... as soon as I'm "allowed" to post it, I will.

wacom
02-23-2005, 09:34 PM
Here is a quick and dirty tutorial I made for getting the sketchy look. It should be enough to get those wanting a tutorial started. It's a PDF file...

Hope it works out ok. Please send me a PM if you have any issues or notice anything or think I should add something etc.

Thanks,
Gideon

harlan
02-23-2005, 11:07 PM
jesus christ man, that was very well put together. you're a complete bad ***, Wacom.

GregMalick
02-24-2005, 12:17 AM
Wacom/Gideon....

A fabulous & concise explaination.

You should sell this write-up to HDRI 3D! If I were you I'd contact Dan Ablan and find out about doing a series on this technique.

Thanks from all of us! :D

colkai
02-24-2005, 02:02 AM
Wacom,
That is an excellent tutorial and I am looking forward to your 'painterly' effect tute. I may actually be able to show the wife something she can relate to at last. ;)

('Traditional Artists' - go figure huh? :p )

caesar
02-24-2005, 05:01 AM
Incredible! How nice of you, Wacom!

WilliamVaughan
02-24-2005, 05:35 AM
Wacom....would you lik NewTek to host this in the LightWave Tutorial Section? It would be a nice addition

Kvaalen
02-25-2005, 07:22 AM
Kvaalen,would you mind loading up a scene with that surface applied? This looks very good indeed!Sure! I'll try to find the time later on today to do it. But as for the model, it comes with the demo of a plugin, so I'll have to either include the demo or just tell you where to get the model.

CB_3D
02-25-2005, 08:38 AM
Sure! I'll try to find the time later on today to do it. But as for the model, it comes with the demo of a plugin, so I'll have to either include the demo or just tell you where to get the model.


Ahh,just replace it with a common ball. itīs the surface settings i am lusting for! :D
Thx,man!

TSpyrison
02-25-2005, 09:04 AM
I think I've wasted two whole (work) days playing with this stuff..
I'ts like crack for lightwave users...

Kvaalen
02-25-2005, 10:12 AM
Ok. Here is the scene file with the object and surfaces for the image I posted earlier (http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showpost.php?p=252729&postcount=43):

Scene Files (http://www.kvaalen.com/misc/mrlips_brtd.zip)

And just thought it would be fair to mention that the the model is taken from this Demo (http://www.kvaalen.com/mt/purchase.html).

TSpyrison
02-25-2005, 10:39 AM
Man do I feel stupid..

I just realized there was an "Enable Bump" button in the deform panel.. and what it does..

When did they put that there?

colkai
02-25-2005, 11:38 AM
And just thought it would be fair to mention that the the model is taken from this Demo (http://www.kvaalen.com/mt/purchase.html).
Hehe, Of course, some of us are lucky enough to own the full products, which, by the way, totally rock! :D

TSpyrison
02-25-2005, 03:13 PM
Might not be as cool as some of the other stuff, But here is my .02$


http://www.spyrison.com/test_gallery/rocket_color.jpg

(not sure I could tell you how I got that much...)

MooseDog
02-25-2005, 10:27 PM
I'ts like crack for lightwave users...

:D isn't that the **** truth! take your base render into photoshop and start messing with levels, curves and the like and the fun only increases.

all hail wacom, the conquering hero!

riki
03-01-2005, 05:15 AM
Some excellent results, keep them coming.

wacom
03-01-2005, 10:56 AM
I've been experimenting with a different version of the motion blur option that uses a displacment pane placed infront of the camera. The results seem very promising even with some of the limitations. I think in the end we'll have to use diffrent methods to get just the "right" look we're going for. This one seems better at creating stratchy, rubbed and dripped images. Still I've just started working with it so we'll see. I'll say this for now- It's easier to setup and share with everyone, is geometry independent and is post process.

PS- the jpeg compression on these images takes out some of the more subtle details that make the procedure really work...

wacom
03-01-2005, 11:01 AM
And a few more...

Man I need to get better at controlling image compression!

Right now it's fairly easy to get caustic, xerox transfer, photo transfer, gesso over painting on board etc. effects. They nice thing is that it's easy to get things to happen outside the confines of your object. This can be used to just affect lines as well if you just use a high contrast images or render out lines seperatly.

meshmaster
03-02-2005, 10:16 AM
WOW! Some of those look like prints fresh off of the press. Frame those bad boys and get them in to an art gallery! :)

policarpo
03-02-2005, 11:14 AM
Really cool stuff Wacom. Does this also work with exporting Buffers? I only ask, cause I think combining the effect with some serious Post processing in PS, DF, AE would really make for even more interesting effects.

Keep up the great work!

wacom
03-02-2005, 01:26 PM
Really cool stuff Wacom. Does this also work with exporting Buffers? I only ask, cause I think combining the effect with some serious Post processing in PS, DF, AE would really make for even more interesting effects.

Keep up the great work!

Well, some of the buffers would be in your origional image that you use on the BG plate, while others would only come from the lense plate. There may be a way to exclude the front lense plate (a polygon in front of the camera with a bump map, 100% tranparency, 100 illumination, refraction etc) from the buffers, but I'm not sure. So in a way yes, and in a way NO. It's kind of a semi-post effect. At worst I think you'll be able to get a new alpha out of it. I'll test and see when I have time (I'm away from my station right now). I'm not positive as to where I would work into the flow due to this, but my guess is near the end.

Since it's semi-post you're kind of using LW as a compositor (which is cumbersome, but actully quite powerful and fast). Again motion blur is in play here to a great degree. I'll upload a samle scene soon and all will be more clear.

theo
03-03-2005, 02:30 PM
Here's my super fun result with one of my little guys.

And, same here, the jpeg compression kills a ton of detail.

Thanks for the ideas Wacom!!

wacom
03-03-2005, 03:48 PM
Here's my super fun result with one of my little guys.

And, same here, the jpeg compression kills a ton of detail.

Thanks for the ideas Wacom!!


This is the best example yet! Nice texture for that painterly/oil pastel look!

theo
03-03-2005, 04:09 PM
Wacom- you may have opened a huge can of creative worms here friend with your invention!

sire
03-09-2005, 04:19 PM
I was hope'n that either Normal Displacment or NormalDisplacement would be able to read incendent angle gradients correctly, but they don't seem to. If they had it would enable one to only blur, fuzz or smear the edges, or give you more control. I'm thinking of puting this as a feature request as it would be useful for many things beside my attempts at natural mediums.

Right now I've finished up (for now) working on a colored pencil look. The next step is to work on shadows. This is going to require a shadow pas being made, and then that alpha being front projected back onto the animation via a background image that is perpendicular to the camera.

Hmm... If I understand you correctly (I'm not sure about the whole shadow thing, though), then you could use the trick you pull for getting the shadows right (rendering an extra pass) to solve the incident angle gradient problem. Render a pass with just these gradient values as an alpha and then front project the resulting bitmap to get the incident values into Normal Displacement/NormalDisplacement.

sire
03-09-2005, 04:35 PM
The eyes are freaky, but the effect works!:

A quote from Message #41, where you could see, if you look closely, what actually doesn't work. Look onto the nostrils. Because of the displacement jitter amount, they pierce through the nose. That's a little drawback of this technique (of course one could avoid such errors with some preparation), but it couldn't occur with the lens pane version described last. Although they're not perfectly interchangable, in difficult cases the latter one could work as a replacement.

policarpo
03-09-2005, 04:49 PM
This is a very old tutorial, but some of you may not have seen it. I made it for a presentation I gave last year on NPR effects the Quick and Dirty Way.

Here's the end result:
http://www.policarpo.us/cgi-bin/images/graphics/blog/021290-policarpo-big.jpg

Come may find it beneficial in this thread. Cheers.

http://www.policarpo.us/samples/water_color.zip

wacom
03-09-2005, 08:09 PM
A quote from Message #41, where you could see, if you look closely, what actually doesn't work. Look onto the nostrils. Because of the displacement jitter amount, they pierce through the nose. That's a little drawback of this technique (of course one could avoid such errors with some preparation), but it couldn't occur with the lens pane version described last. Although they're not perfectly interchangable, in difficult cases the latter one could work as a replacement.

Wieght maps, a diffrent texture etc. can be used to control the amout of displacment.

On the shadows issue you are correct- and that is exactly what I did do to get the shadows right. Render one pass, take that, use it as an alpha and project it on a background plate etc. There are other ways, but that seemed the most straight forward. If LW could project multi-layered gradeints then there is a lot more we could do...but the texuture filter method that we have now really doesn't want to work for these things.

Red_Oddity
03-11-2005, 07:28 AM
Not sure this has been mentioned, or was included in a posted Surface file, but it is very easiliy possible to control the amount of 'paint samples' (not sure what else to call it) without having to worry about the amount of AA steps...

I simply created 5 keyframes in the all 3 position curves of the bump , set these to step and scaled them between frame 0 and frame 1, then set the curves to repeat, and voila...

(i'll add some screenies to explain my self)

Red_Oddity
03-11-2005, 07:30 AM
The upper one is with low AA and the lower one is with high AA

and here's the Surface attached

Red_Oddity
03-11-2005, 08:07 AM
Hey...now this is interesting...

With TB_ShaderTree i can connect the diffuse of object to a gradient, and then connect that one to the Color channel...
This way the painty gradient is applied to ALL lights (unless you exlude some lights offcourse via the Light or Object property panel offcourse)

like so:

wacom
03-11-2005, 10:02 AM
Hey...now this is interesting...

With TB_ShaderTree i can connect the diffuse of object to a gradient, and then connect that one to the Color channel...
This way the painty gradient is applied to ALL lights (unless you exlude some lights offcourse via the Light or Object property panel offcourse)

like so:


Very cool stuff Red_Oddity! I only made brief mention of playing with the curves to get diffrent effects in the first tutorial, I was going to save it for the second one. Cool stuff. That's how you could also get a gradual blend. Have it stay put for X amount of time and then ramp up it's movement etc.

I just downloaded the TB_ShaderTree last night and I can see that I need to start playing with it ASAP. Very nice! I might just be able to get my colored pencil and hatched lines effect to project correctly with this plug!

Thanks Red_Oddity!

BTW I see you aren't using any render lines on these. If you want your stuff to have a bit more of an Under painting look you can try making a fairly large Silhouette line that is the base color of your object. It dosen't always work well...but it can help extend the smear a bit :)

intofx
03-31-2005, 06:32 PM
I admit I'm mostly a lurker but this thread - and the lack of clients for a few days - inspired me to try a few things. Between Kvaalen and Wacom's samples, I came up with these... Same set up on each one - banded color gradient texture set to light incident but with different bump procedural textures. I'm going for more of a painted feeling. Let me know what you think.

http://www.z06vette.com/gallery/uploads/3404/All2.jpg

Matt

wacom
03-31-2005, 08:39 PM
To tell you the truth it's a little hard to say anything with your images so small. I'm just take'n a stab, but you might want to try and up the scale of your procedural...

Please post a few larger examples.

mav3rick
04-01-2005, 08:20 AM
and brighter examples... if possyble some other object... just so we can see clearly surface

gatz
05-16-2005, 11:49 AM
The images at www.toonshade.com are nearly enough to convince me to switch to Maya on a PC! That would cost me a few grand but the plugin is FREE!

Beautiful renderings. The animated pencil drawing is breathtaking. I haven't seen any CD4D imagery, still or animated, that looked this good. Smooth flowing lines, no jitter.

I dropped a note to Worley, but I'm afraid their plate might be full.

rg

gatz
06-19-2005, 11:19 PM
I've been following in Wacom's and Kvaalen's footsteps with an eye toward animation. I started with the basic single frame oscillation to achieve the mo-blur sketch edge. I used IFW2_skins for the oscillating bump. The have a crumple so you could probably match the prev samples but IFW allows a variety of parameters to be animated so an organic flowing technique should be possible. They also have some other types that work well. This is the IFW2_skin scratched function applied on top of the basic crumple. The mov animates the magnitude. The line work around the eyes is the shader not the model.

Set the mov to loop. I'm aiming for subtle.

http://members.cox.net/artshovel/temp/willis_IFW_cycle22.mov

mav3rick
06-20-2005, 04:02 PM
i just dont get it..... why noone in history of LW done this kind of plugin? is it so hard to do somethin similar with present SDK?

wacom
06-21-2005, 11:12 AM
It's looking good gatz! What kind of edge line are you going for? Just wondering where you're wanting to push this or if you've already gotten what you wanted out of it. I see that you either aren't using lines or have made them a similar color to your surface tones which is a good idea when going for this look. Do try and play a bit with the % of motion blur to see the diffrences in what will happen with your surface gradient.

mav3rick: I'm not sure either as most of it would just be assigning LW's own settings to a slidder panel with numeric inputs for certain items- if I had more time I'd look into how this would script. Then the only other step would be letting these slidder settings pannel be saved as a .txt file for presets. Could be really nice!

Maybe I'll contact someone like the Unreal Cel plugin maker and see if he has any interest in adding something like this to his plugin?

gatz
06-21-2005, 12:19 PM
I'm going for a painted technique, without outlining stroke. I like the look of the basic crumple (your apple preset or Kvaalen's Lip look). Stills look great but I'm trying for something more flowing and with less flicker. I tried approaching it as a post operation with Studio Artist but you run into similar probs.

I'm still "playing" with the animatables of IFW2. What I lust for is the smooth motion ala the charcoal rendering at
http://www.toonshade.com/images/gallery/sketchyCharacter.avi

With the time I'm spending I could easily pay $500 for a shader and still come out ahead.;)

rg

Gui Lo
06-22-2005, 12:43 AM
Great technique and here's my attempt.

wacom
06-22-2005, 10:50 PM
It's almost clay/pastel like. I like the colors you chose for the center tree. Nice.

Gui Lo
06-22-2005, 11:52 PM
Thanks Wacom,
I used your examples scene as a starting point.

The effect I am going for is more like this, but can't get there.

Please, please share the details ;)

Red_Oddity
11-04-2005, 09:00 AM
Just to drag up this old thread again, i've had some time on my hands lately, giving me ample time to continue with our short film, so i started experimenting which way to go with shading and look (and this is not it, but i thought i let you guys see it)

This was done with a normal object (with a Front projecten of some texture), a flipped INK object with the same Front projecten used for transparancy, some good old fashioned Normal Displacement and Outer Edges on.

wacom
11-05-2005, 03:11 PM
Just to drag up this old thread again, i've had some time on my hands lately, giving me ample time to continue with our short film, so i started experimenting which way to go with shading and look (and this is not it, but i thought i let you guys see it)

This was done with a normal object (with a Front projecten of some texture), a flipped INK object with the same Front projecten used for transparancy, some good old fashioned Normal Displacement and Outer Edges on.

Looking good- how does it animate?

bluerider
11-06-2005, 04:44 AM
wacom,
Thanks for the thread and the examples to try out :)

Red_Oddity
11-07-2005, 02:12 AM
Looking good- how does it animate?
Not quite sure, the cool part of using this technique though, is you can actually control the width of your ink strokes (and with some gradient with object distance as input, you can make sure your lines don't get thinner or thicker when moving the object away or towards the camera)

Anyhoo, i'll toss some tests on the farm and see how it looks, just for kicks :)

Exception
11-09-2005, 08:32 PM
Hey guys,

For a geometry project at school where we were to devise and build an Infinite Periodic Minimal Surface (IPMS), I used Lightwave to make preliminary mockups, as these things are very hard to understand. I thought it'd be nice to make a nice render out of it, and I used the charcoal technique to do this.

Attached is a render, but I have made two movies. They are to be found here:

http://www.except.nl/Overig/yale/drawing/IPMS_Movie_01.avi
and a slightly wobbly one where the camera gets lost inside the ipms:
http://www.except.nl/Overig/yale/drawing/IPMS_Movie_02.avi

Mind you I only had one day to make and render this... Since the compression facilities here aren;t great, they are perhaps a tad bigger than they need to be, but.. erm, yes. Indeed. Nuts.

See render below.
Thanks to everyone for inventing this techique!

Oh how I would love Orthographic rendering in lightwave... how long is the wait? [9]??

WilliamVaughan
01-16-2008, 01:10 AM
Bump :P

Love the technique...was showing a group some different techniques and showed how you can get this look with no jittering during anim

this tech still has potential for great things

pumeco
01-16-2008, 05:14 AM
Wow, a WACOM thread :dance:
This'll make for a good weekend read, nice bump!

geothefaust
01-16-2008, 11:27 AM
I'll let Wacom know his thread has been bumped. :p

And, this technique is pretty darn cool. I was (still am!) blown away when he first showed it to me.

wacom
01-16-2008, 02:35 PM
I can't see your example Proton! For some reason the link keeps acting more like a link to a page than a download. I tried saving the page as a text file and renaming it .mov...but that didn't work either!

Glad that people are still into this technique. It's tricky in some ways to work with, but is more stable than first seems. It's all about the oscillation and 2D motion blur!

One thing I keep meaning to add to the technique is the use of playing with oscillating subpatch levels since so much of the technique is reliant on the geometry of the model used.

I haven't had a project that's needed it so far- but I'm just "burning" to have an excuse to use it!

GraphXs
01-16-2008, 03:40 PM
Wacom, just change it to a .mov when you save it, that will make it work.
:thumbsup:

rman2
02-01-2008, 03:56 PM
how did you achieved to stop the oscillating mouvement? :)

hunter
02-01-2008, 04:22 PM
Bump :P

Love the technique...was showing a group some different techniques and showed how you can get this look with no jittering during anim

this tech still has potential for great things

That's cool. I had to right click and save with a .mov instead of .php but it worked. How about a tutorial like all the gems you've been pumping out lately on this technique? You are a machine. Thanks,
And Wacom thank you.

erikals
05-12-2008, 07:22 AM
Just bumped into this thread, and came to think of a trick,

in order to make parts of the object (eye area etc) less blurred, what about using weightmaps to reduce the displacement in those areas? should work.

Anyone managed to make more curly lines? (not straight) / lines with a bend?

paulhart
05-20-2008, 02:12 PM
Bump, under attended to aspect of Lightwave development.

Gregg "T.Rex"
07-23-2008, 11:01 AM
and another bump....
...for William, to share "how you can get this look with no jittering during animation"...

paulhart
07-23-2008, 02:11 PM
Double bump...
I would love to have William (Proton) Vaughn jump in and post on this now "old" issue, but still under-attended to by Newtek. (Proton, also did a "killer" render of himself with etched black/white look, that I would love to know about, which was never explained, please....) Blender, with the GSoC (Google Summer of Code (http://maximecurioni.com/gsoc2008/)) currently integrating the Freestyle (http://freestyle.sourceforge.net/GALLERY/dirindex.php) line rendering tools into the main Blender branch, should be ready by September, and may be the best response so far in this area. Cinema 4D, 3DSMax, Maya, all have solutions for more NPR representation, but the solutions for Lightwave are "clunky" implementations, which I wish was otherwise.

JBT27
07-31-2008, 05:05 AM
.....and again!

Wish I'd found this last week when a client was asking about 'illustrative looks' - I came up with some OK demo material for him, including a pencil line that I figured using displacement and MB, but the stuff here from four years ago is stunning.

Woefully under-represented set of techniques in LW. How much further can we all take this now with nodal and the rest of the new stuff?

Julian.

WilliamVaughan
08-02-2008, 09:34 AM
Been awhile since I messed with this stuff but I did all the motion on subframes so there was no jittering from frame to frame. When I get back from Siggraph I'll post some source files...just need to track them down

monovich
08-02-2008, 10:50 AM
I loved this thread. The whole technique seems like a vast unexplored territory ripe for development and experimentation.

... now if I could only quit my day job.

JBT27
08-02-2008, 10:54 AM
Been awhile since I messed with this stuff but I did all the motion on subframes so there was no jittering from frame to frame. When I get back from Siggraph I'll post some source files...just need to track them down

Yep, fractional frames and repeat pre and post behaviours in the GE keep the effect rock steady - found this last week while experimenting, in a bid to make sure I wasn't saying "No problem!" to the client without knowing if it would work!!! :D

Julian.

paulhart
08-02-2008, 07:07 PM
Attention William (Proton) Vaughn, Hello...
Good to see your response on this thread. I don't know if you saw my question above, so....(Proton, also did a "killer" render of himself with etched black/white look, that I would love to know about, which was never explained, please....) I know it wasn't exactly what was discussed here, but in the category of NPR Lightwave creative outputs, it was excellent, I can't even find it to reference??
Thank you.
Paul

WilliamVaughan
08-02-2008, 07:26 PM
here is the image....no plugins...straight LightWave render

Dirk
08-03-2008, 10:55 AM
here is the image....no plugins...straight LightWave render

Awesome !!!

:lightwave

monovich
08-03-2008, 02:29 PM
wow. that is nice William!

paulhart
08-03-2008, 04:19 PM
William, Hello... Thanks for re-posting the image, as you can tell, others are enthused as well. I have viewed most of your videos and enjoyed your presentations at several conferences, but haven't seen many NPR type demos and tips, tho it is the primary area of interest for me. If you feel inspired to share how this was done, (.. "just" straight Lightwave) your humble subject will thank you.
Paul

JBT27
08-04-2008, 02:17 AM
William, Hello... Thanks for re-posting the image, as you can tell, others are enthused as well. I have viewed most of your videos and enjoyed your presentations at several conferences, but haven't seen many NPR type demos and tips, tho it is the primary area of interest for me. If you feel inspired to share how this was done, (.. "just" straight Lightwave) your humble subject will thank you.
Paul

Yes, I'll second that request!

I've got some nice varied pencil-shaded and heavy-line renders, but these drawing effects that look more like rapid sketching with individual strokes, like on the left shoulder, is harder to figure. Though in essence I suppose you might use an accurately placed image map with short stubby marks which are MB'd out, or a sparse procedural, like Dented.....??

Julian.

Lewis
10-03-2008, 01:29 PM
What a teaser, proton you will make video tutorial for that - right :) :)?

probiner
02-27-2009, 02:50 AM
Just found this pearl today.
The sketchy looks very nice. Ty for sharing these good ideas and tests.

This reminds me of some experiments i did 3 years ago to jitter the 3D that it would look less of 3D and more frame by frame animation. At the time i focused on geometry, using displacement (but i didnt remember of using blur:foreheads) and Texturing the object path.

This is a great addon to that goal.

dobermunk
02-27-2009, 04:07 AM
I posted an older development of mine (blurred displacement) in my blog and tried to place it in context to ekki and jerrard's spinning light trick... would love to hear feedback on this.
http://www.drip.de/?p=135

probiner
02-27-2009, 05:14 AM
I think it depends on the style you want to put to the work. What is this for?

faulknermano
03-18-2009, 12:05 AM
Yep, fractional frames and repeat pre and post behaviours in the GE keep the effect rock steady - found this last week while experimenting, in a bid to make sure I wasn't saying "No problem!" to the client without knowing if it would work!!! :D

Julian.

i managed to get steady outlines in an animation by setting pre and post to repeat and the last key's tangent to stepped.

bethel
02-10-2010, 07:16 AM
The movie links are broken. Can you please let me know where I can download them? Thank you.



Hey guys,

For a geometry project at school where we were to devise and build an Infinite Periodic Minimal Surface (IPMS), I used Lightwave to make preliminary mockups, as these things are very hard to understand. I thought it'd be nice to make a nice render out of it, and I used the charcoal technique to do this.

Attached is a render, but I have made two movies. They are to be found here:

http://www.except.nl/Overig/yale/drawing/IPMS_Movie_01.avi
and a slightly wobbly one where the camera gets lost inside the ipms:
http://www.except.nl/Overig/yale/drawing/IPMS_Movie_02.avi

Mind you I only had one day to make and render this... Since the compression facilities here aren;t great, they are perhaps a tad bigger than they need to be, but.. erm, yes. Indeed. Nuts.

See render below.
Thanks to everyone for inventing this techique!

Oh how I would love Orthographic rendering in lightwave... how long is the wait? [9]??

Emmanuel
01-30-2012, 02:01 PM
here is the image....no plugins...straight LightWave render

Man, this is just spectacular.