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View Full Version : Who Dares Worley.....



3DBob
01-27-2005, 06:12 PM
Just like to ask the community if anyone will join me in daring Mr. Steve W. to release an update to FPrime.....

3DBob

CB_3D
01-27-2005, 08:10 PM
1.I DONīT want faster radiosity!!
2. Please, NO volumetric lights!!
3. No shadowmaps, i hate them!!!
4. Please please no shaders!!!
5. No better and faster AA, please, noooo.

So no! Iīll NEVER update 1.02! It runs so well on my Amiga 500.

:p :p :p :p

Beamtracer
01-27-2005, 09:47 PM
I think the issue is updating the SDK within Lightwave before updating Fprime.

Fprime would be a much more useful tool if it could be used with other Lightwave plug-ins and image filters.

js33
01-27-2005, 10:23 PM
Well the SDK WAS updated with the release of 8.2. But I don't know if the needed functions to help Worley were included or not.

Cheers,
JS

mattclary
01-28-2005, 05:27 AM
I think the issue is updating the SDK within Lightwave before updating Fprime.

Fprime would be a much more useful tool if it could be used with other Lightwave plug-ins and image filters.

Really????? Are you sure? :rolleyes:

trick
01-28-2005, 05:33 AM
Don't you think that Mr.Worley would be the first that benefits the most from an update :confused:

Lightwolf
01-28-2005, 05:55 AM
Well the SDK WAS updated with the release of 8.2. But I don't know if the needed functions to help Worley were included or not.

From what I've seen in the new SDK, it basically removes the need for Worley to include all those helper plugins, like the shader or the displacement. It should also make the combo more stable.
Unfortunately I didn't find any change concerning shaders or volumetrics.
Still, there are a couple of features hinted at in the fprime manual that I wouldn't mind having too (like multi-threading support).
Cheers,
Mike - waiting ;)

3DBob
01-28-2005, 06:40 AM
FPrime has paid for itself many times over - I have benefited from both the licences I bought - I want a new generation of users to enjoy Prime time.

Maybe he is waiting for his beta testers to give it a thrashing - WL has always been very maticulous about making sure they avoid making flaky releases. There is no doubt that there has been SDK collaboration, as CHUCK said recently:-

"Please do not overlook the fact that in this round of development the team spent considerable time and effort working with Steve Worley to ensure that we put in the SDK changes he needs to take FPrime to a new level of integration and power with LightWave (and these changes will benefit NewTek and all third party developers as well). In addition, we made the first round of changes to the renderer architecture, and rest assured more is in development."

Or perhaps there needs to be just a few more SDK tweaks and a futher incremental update to LW to make the release possible?

Or even more excitingly - maybe Worley Labs are going to blast us all with updates to G2, Sasquatch and FPrime that all work together as one happy family?

Who can say..... Who... Can.. Say.

Perhaps the new kids on the block: Maxwell Render Pre Release $395 - KRay $384.07 - PMGStudio Workstation $299 and other potential standalone renderers coming to the fore has spurned him on to throw a bit more functionality into the release - only time will tell.

None of these competitors have the simplicity of FPrimes integration - but they do up the ante with Character Animation, Node based surfacing and sub pixel displacement (PMG) new radiosity/lense types with baking (KRay) and unbiased multiprocessor rendering (Maxwell) and they are all less than $399.

http://www.richardrosenman.com/maxwell.htm
http://www.kraytracing.com/index.php?subpage=3

3DBob

Chris S. (Fez)
01-28-2005, 07:48 AM
"From what I've seen in the new SDK, it basically removes the need for Worley to include all those helper plugins, like the shader or the displacement."


Hey Mike, do you think the SDK has been opened enough for G2 to work with the next version of FPrime?

Lightwolf
01-28-2005, 07:50 AM
Hey Mike, do you think the SDK has been opened enough for G2 to work with the next version of FPrime?
Well, since there doesn't seem to be much new stuff concerning shaders, I doubt it. Well, unless Steve bridges them I guess. I have no idea where G2 sits in that equation though, I only know FPrime...

Cheers,
Mike

Nemoid
01-29-2005, 01:44 AM
I dare the man with the FPlan...

i appreciate the poetry on this poll!!! :D

about F prime, it's a wonderful tool. i guess not so much time will pass and we'll see the next release. it will be a sort of explosion IMO.

Muad'dib
01-29-2005, 03:46 AM
I double dare the man with the FPlan :)

It's been way too quiet for way too long from the Labs so I hope we see something fom them soon. Or in the least some info on where things are / where they are heading. Soften us up a little with teaser vids/images like before the main release :D ;) :)

chikega
01-29-2005, 09:11 AM
I double dog dare Worley to combine G2 and FPrime, give a healthy discount for those who have both, and have it completely integrated within LW (shaders, posteffects, etc...).

As of now, I have to have G2 open to do SSS effects, Viper to see other changes and yet again have Fprime not see any of G2's skin effects. So, integration please.

Mike Pauza
01-29-2005, 09:59 AM
Well I dare NewTek to put all of Worley's plugs into LW9! :):):)

-Mike Pauza

kfinla
01-29-2005, 10:23 AM
Well since Mr. Worley himslef worked on updating the sdk id hope that shader, hypervoxles etc will now function in Frpime. I'd love to see an update to any of the plugs, Sasqautch 2? Fprime 1.5? G2 2? - I think i asked the labs back in August what was going on since it had been 6 months or so since the worley site had been updated. I was told they were busy doing R&D, i know at that time it was rumour'd Steve Worley was working on opening up the sdk.

My guess is the delay is A) 8.2 just came out so unless worley labs has been working simulatenously as the the sdk's being worked on, now they just got the ability to make the changes they want to, to fprime etc.

B) The bugs in 8.2 are delaying things, perhaps 8.2.1 has to come out first.

C) What a rumour mill. All i can say is Worleys a smart guy, but there is kind of a chicken and egg thing here i'll be interetsed to see how its handled, if from now on u need LW 8.2+ to use worleys plugs.

Architook
01-29-2005, 12:09 PM
Well since Mr. Worley himself worked on updating the sdk ...

I don't know how true that is. The official FPrime page (http://www.worley.com/fprime.html) implies that it's all Newtek's work.



Newtek has been thrilled by FPrime. We are hoping their developers will extend the LightWave SDK to help FPrime and other third party tools become more powerful. Newtek is determined to work on SDK enhancements, though we ourselves can't predict what new hooks, abilities, or information any SDK changes will provide nor when Newtek will release any updates.

CB_3D
01-29-2005, 12:37 PM
I think that on this very forum someone from NT said not long ago that Mr Worley has been working with NT on the SDK. Nope, donīt ask me for a link to the post, but it was only last week i think.

kfinla
01-29-2005, 04:47 PM
Ya, it was a rumour that Worley was working on the sdk in the summer, and then it became fact in the fall/winter.

Honestly it will be torture to me if Frpime, sasquatch etc gets updated before a usable version of LW 8.2+ comes out. I own all the worley plugs, but im still running 8.01 till i hear about things not being broken.

A guy in another thread said Newtek needs to upgrade their beta testers LOL!

I know id just like some status report on the worley site... ie. we helped make lots of changes to the LW sdk so we can make even more powerful plugins... somthing to tease that stuffs coming etc

Im no programmer, so the stuff some ppl say about no shader or hypervoxel stuff being in the new sdk is troublesome. I also dont know if a new SDK means plugins must be recoded from scratch.. or if they can just be added to to take advantage of the new commands..

philthorn
01-29-2005, 04:50 PM
It's been quoted here many times. This is what Chuck said...


Please do not overlook the fact that in this round of development the team spent considerable time and effort working with Steve Worley to ensure that we put in the SDK changes he needs to take FPrime to a new level of integration and power with LightWave (and these changes will benefit NewTek and all third party developers as well).

And here's the link to that post.

Chuck's posting (http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showpost.php?p=242692&postcount=41)

hrgiger
01-29-2005, 09:34 PM
I triple dog dare him.

Nothing beats the triple dog dare.

evenflcw
01-29-2005, 10:44 PM
Wouldn't the ability for Fprime to render hypervoxels almost mean NT had to hand away the source for it in the SDK? I mean it's not like they get converted to polygons or any other common format which any renderengines can trace and do with what it wants. Anyone with knowledge of this? I have no answers, only questions :)

hrgiger
01-29-2005, 11:19 PM
No, it's not a matter of sourcecode. Opening up the SDK would just enable access for Fprime to display hypervoxels. Currently, the SDK does not allow third party renderers to reference volumetrics or shader information.

3DBob
01-30-2005, 05:39 AM
How about the : quadruple dog hair?

I've deduced and said as much in the worley yahoo forum, that the reason for the delayed release of a new FPrime version is related to the lack of relevant SDK changes in the current LW release - the content of which must have been finalised some many months back.

I recon we'll see a new version of lightwave with further SDK changes released just prior to the FPrime we all hope for.

Having said that - an interim multithreaded FPrime would be very useful.

It might be a concern for some about the backward compatibility - but hey, Sas, G2 and FPrime all need 7+, besides there has never been a cheaper time to upgrade LW. With the cost of the upgrade so reasonable - there is no real reason for a developer to struggle to make bleading edge plugins that work with anchient versions. What is more - it is impossible as there are not the SDK hooks to do it.

3DBob

hrgiger
01-30-2005, 05:53 AM
There is no quadruple dog dare. Because once you've reached the triple dog dare, you've already reached the point of no return. Anybody who has seen a christmas story( http://imdb.com/title/tt0085334/?fr=c2l0ZT1kZnxzZz0xfHR0PW9ufHBuPTB8cT1hIGNocmlzdG 1hcyBzdG9yeXxteD0yMHxsbT0yMDB8aHRtbD0xfG5tPW9u;fc= 1;ft=20;fm=1 ) would know that.

Matt
01-30-2005, 06:42 AM
Who voted they can stay with 1.02, I mean, really, come on! :)

My wants for FPrime 2:

- Network render support

- Motion blur in the preview window (like this http://realsoft.fi/news/v5/, scroll down to 'Rendering Still Images with Motion Blur')

- More LW functions added to preview

- Shiney new interface! :)

Matt
01-30-2005, 06:44 AM
Actually, that Radiosity tab shouldn't be there because FPrime will be able to extract the settings from LW in v2 won't it! ;)

dmg3d
01-30-2005, 07:04 AM
Newtek: thtuck?... thtuck... thtuck, THTUCK!!

hrgiger
01-30-2005, 07:07 AM
Matt, I like the interface.

I'd make just a change or two ...

Matt
01-30-2005, 07:29 AM
LOL! Nice one Giger!

hrgiger
01-30-2005, 07:35 AM
Well, I emailed Worley to let them know that we users at Newtek have collectively 'triple dog dared' them and provided the link to this thread. I have proverbally slapped them across the face with the leather glove.

Rich
01-30-2005, 08:25 AM
This is what I want from Worley

For FPrime:

Volumetrics, Shader, Sasquatch and G2 all supported.

For Sasquatch:

Showing up in reflections

And finally since this is just as much about the SDK,

For Lightwave:

Glow showing up in reflections.

Get all those working and you will have one happy LWer :)

Matt
01-30-2005, 09:35 AM
I have proverbally slapped them across the face with the leather glove.

Hehe! Pistols at dawn! :D

3DBob
01-30-2005, 03:24 PM
Rich, you are bang on - sas hair in reflections is something I have wanted for years!

Just a multithreaded FP that linked to sas and G2 would be dreamy.

I'd call it the "Anti Triple Dog" dream team - NOTE: dog in this context does not mean mingin' bint - but could be related to the phrase "works like a dog" in that it would: work like a charm unlike now and be a counter to even the harshest of newtek zealots challenges.

3DBob

kfinla
01-31-2005, 07:51 AM
All i can say now, is the next batch of worley plugs/updates should be good. Considering whats been done with the old SDK.

Theres so many variables as to when the worley plugs will be updated though, it will just happen when it does.

Theres the chicken and egg thing with 8.2 and its bugs. Im personally on 8.01 till i hear better things. The fact that probably both mac and pc versions have to be worked on so they both come out at once. I know on the mac side OS 10.3.3+? screwed up the sliders in Sasquatch, g2 etc with all the openGL changes apple was doing with every update it seemed. Instant crashes if u touch a slider.

The fact that its quite possible code for the worley plugs hasnt been touched until 8.2 was finished. Hell he'd probably like a vacation after workin on the sdk lol. Anyways theres a lot of room for things to hold things up unfortunately.

At the end of the day ppl just want results though. I own all the worley plugs, so id love to see/hear any news from worley. I'd love to be using G2 and fprime together!

Chuck
01-31-2005, 08:18 AM
It's been quoted here many times. This is what Chuck said...



And here's the link to that post.

Chuck's posting (http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showpost.php?p=242692&postcount=41)

Please note a clarification to my phrasing - NewTek's development team did the work; Mr. Worley provided feature request input, and he and his staff provided feedback on whether the implementation worked as needed. I've edited the message at the link to clarify this.

3DBob
01-31-2005, 08:38 AM
Thanks for the clarification Chuck, that is fantastic news:-

1. It means NT have the capability to do the low level SDK work in house and have a 3rd party request and review cycle working.

2. It means that WL were free to concentrate on doing what they do best!

Well done newtek, oh and as your listening - was all the SDK improvements he requested in 8.2 or should we expect another update to LW with more 3rd party potential?

3DBob

philthorn
01-31-2005, 09:43 AM
Thanks for the clarification Chuck!

It is certainly good news to see that the process works as intended.

I never assumed, even without your clarification that NT was in the habit of letting third-party developers hack around in their code! :)

This is certainly good news for third-party programmers as well as the Lightwave community!

-Phil

Chuck
01-31-2005, 10:55 AM
Well done newtek, oh and as your listening - was all the SDK improvements he requested in 8.2 or should we expect another update to LW with more 3rd party potential?

3DBob

We've addressed a number of his requests, but more are in development and will appear in future updates.

3DBob
01-31-2005, 12:56 PM
Thanks for being so quick Chuck - very appreciated.

I hope it doesn't lead to too much wild speculation - it was expected that other SDK hooks than those in 8.2 would be needed to unleash the potential of third party rendering software but it is great to hear that there are more in the oven - I think this is why there is no FPrime update right now.

Here's to 8.2+

It is also good for other 3rd party developers to know that Newtek isn't giving one developer special status and code access, this might otherwise discourage them. I hope your words here will encourage other plug in developers to request useful SDK changes.

I feel a new wave in this spirit of development that encourages me and points to a bright future for our 3D tool of choice.

3DBob

colkai
01-31-2005, 01:13 PM
We've addressed a number of his requests, but more are in development and will appear in future updates.

Okay folks - how about a hearty YAY! for the gang at Newtek? :D

I can see a time in the not too distant future where certain people will be partaking of a confectionary involving humbleness :p

3DBob
01-31-2005, 01:19 PM
YAY Hay hay.....

kfinla
02-12-2005, 01:17 PM
somethin cool i thought i'd share. I just stumbled upon a lighting tutorial vid for a dvd by a farily well know LW guy. And low and behold he's using a new version of fprime! for the in the demo vid.

Anyways no news as to if it works with any other Worley plugs, shaders etc. but seems possibly faster (dual proc support maybe? one can hope) And an "Extra AA" feature in the master plugin fprime panel. Perhaps to make fprime work harder to find edges and save refinement passes and time!

check it out.

hrgiger
02-12-2005, 01:27 PM
Whoa. That is pretty interesting....

ColinCohen
02-12-2005, 01:48 PM
v1.15 has been available to certain people for some time now.

In the Sept. 2004 issue of Keyframe, Nicholas Boughen posted images containing 1.15.

I think Tim Albee may have posted something as well.

hrgiger
02-12-2005, 02:00 PM
Oh, then it's not so interesting...

kfinla
02-12-2005, 02:12 PM
Well if v1.15 is old news, thats probably good news. Cuz it was being used with LW 8.0.1 so thats pre-sdk changes in 8.2 and say 5 months development time ontop.

Wishful thinking :)

kfinla
02-12-2005, 02:16 PM
:D Perhaps the long silence on the worley site is do to a mass update :D for Sasquatch, G2 etc that work with a new Fprime. :rolleyes:

3DBob
02-12-2005, 06:43 PM
mmmm - i won't say i told you so. probably because I won't need to. No one likes smug people - people like wrong people.

WL / NT.... I say again.... bring it on.... anyone feel a tremor?

hehe

3DBob

Qexit
02-14-2005, 09:27 AM
Might I make a small observation here ? It is well known that Mr Worley has his own lucky bunch of Beta Testers to wring the bugs out of his plugins before they are released to regular users. What a lot of people seem to keep overlooking is that this team of Beta Testers are not all going to be part of Newtek's Beta Test team. This means that Mr Worley's Beta Testers would be unable to put in any real work on testing new plugins with a new version of LW before it was released to the general user community. Now, how long has LW8.2 been available for everyone to use and how long do you think it takes check out a plugin as complex as FPrime thoroughly ? It does include three render engines you know. Also remember that during development the LW8.2 code and SDK revisions were a moving target rather than something that was fixed in stone several months ago. Remember the delay in releasing LW8.2 ? Knowing what is being put in and having your hands on some actual code are two very different things. Mr Worley will have coded and tested what he could on his own but he is first and foremost a programmer and he relies a lot on his Beta Testers users to really thrash the programme and identify problems.

It is also worth bearing in mind that any new version of FPrime DOES still have to work in older versions of LW, i.e. 7.X and 8.0/8.0.1. In spite of the great deals Newtek have been offering of late, not everyone will have been able or willing to upgrade to the latest and greatest version of LW. Some people are still hanging back from moving from 8.0.1. to 8.2 as has been stated in this thread. Plugin developers do have to take this into account at all times....and Beta Testers have to try and test out all the variants too.

I haven't done any programming for several years but reading through the published SDK changes even I can see that there are definitely no links to HVs, no links to shaders and no allowance for fully integrated third party renderers into ScreamerNet. So that somewhat limits what can appear in any new version of FPrime. I am sure Mr Worley is working on an improved new version of FPrime and it will more than likely be a free upgrade to existing users. I don't expect it to be anything earth-shatteringly different to what we already have though. :)

Wade
02-14-2005, 09:54 AM
[QUOTE=Qexit]
It is also worth bearing in mind that any new version of FPrime DOES still have to work in older versions of LW, i.e. 7.X and 8.0/8.0.1. QUOTE]


I think not, and would put money up that Fprime will only offer it's full power to something past 8.2 not even 8.2. But hey that is just me takeing a wild guess which i am prone to do.

Wade :cool:

Panikos
02-14-2005, 10:04 AM
Since LW8.2 and all future versions will contain SDK changes, this means that FPrime after 1.02+ wont be compatible with LW before LW8.02.
Thats common sense.

I think FPrime 1.02 went as far as it was possible with the current LW SDK.

To make the long story short:
either use FPrime1.02 with LW7.5-LW8.01
or
get new FPrime and use it with LW8.2+


(Already LW8.2 broke some functionality with FPrime. FPrime Displacement is not stored in the scene)

kfinla
02-14-2005, 10:33 AM
Well id be surprised to see Fprime, or any of the Worley plugs from now on not requiring LW 8.2 or greater. I know its stated somewhere that more SDK changes are to take place in the next LW update also.

I mentioned before in this thread i think, that there is this chicken and egg thing now with the worley plugs and LW. I'd just like to see some news on the worley site, its been 11 months since Fprime 1.02 and even longer since any updates to sasquatch, g2 etc.

I'm one of those ppl still on LW 8.01.. and I would of hoped by now 8.2.1 would be out to rid all the bugs and broken things in 8.2. Could NT be squashing bugs in 8.2 and adding to the sdk? and could worley be consulting these changes again? who knows. Chuck was very explicit though that Mr.Worley was mearly a consultant to the 8.2 sdk changes and not now a NT programmer. Basically we know very little, so i should shut up and get back to work. But id love to know what is or isnt going on at worley labs, its been nearly a year without a peep.

Qexit
02-14-2005, 10:36 AM
To make the long story short:
either use FPrime1.02 with LW7.5-LW8.01
or
get new FPrime and use it with LW8.2+ Nope, that would be contrary to Mr Worley's usual approach. It is more likely to read :

To get full functionality out of FPrime 1.X you will need LW8.2 or above. FPrime 1.X will still work just fine under earlier versions of LW but you will not have access to some features.

;)

Panikos
02-14-2005, 10:48 AM
Heh

One way or the other, what is in my concern is to have both LW and FPrime work better and better.

;)

janoverust
02-15-2005, 05:09 AM
So there is no "FPrime Tsunami"? :confused:

wacom
02-15-2005, 09:44 AM
So there is no "FPrime Tsunami"? :confused:

Hardly a ripple...but then again I don't think they're on vacation at Worley labs...

Someone pointed out that LW is getting other renderers, and that this may be putting pressure on Worley to add a lot more functionality to his product and make it a full blown renderer in the sense that it has more AA functions, maybe even photon maping or some such feature. I for one hope that it introduces micro bump displacement! It sounds like wishful thinking...but who knows.

Then again I'll be happy if it just works with HVs, render lines, caustics etc and has some kick ***** noise reduction. I can always dream though right?

robk
02-17-2005, 02:21 PM
Has anyone actually phoned or emailed Steve and asked him what is going on or does everyone just like to speculate about Fprime because they have nothing better to do?

Lamont
02-17-2005, 02:35 PM
I like speculation mehself.

kfinla
02-17-2005, 03:10 PM
I emailed the labs back in august, wondering why the worley pages hadnt been updated in 6 months and generally what was up. I got a pretty generic reply cuz back then it was hush hush that worley was having any interaction with newtek with the sdk.

I think someone informed the labs about this thread a little while back.

As ive said many times, id just like a hint at what is or isn't going on. since theres a fprime 1.15 in the hands of a few i'd like to think more changes are still being made since its not been publically released. But as ppl have said several times, im not sure what those changes can be if HV's, shaders etc still arent possible with the latest sdk

Qexit
02-17-2005, 03:30 PM
As ive said many times, id just like a hint at what is or isn't going on.OK, here's a big hint :

Steve Worley is working on an upgrade to FPrime

;)

3DBob
02-17-2005, 05:27 PM
And here's another - Newtek are working on an upgrade to Lightwave

Qexit
02-17-2005, 05:56 PM
You can also use simple deduction. The main features people were asking for last year included : seeing shaders, HVs, and particles, interaction with other plugins, network rendering, lower RAM requirements, better AA, faster everything...and a few essential bug fixes. If the revised SDK doesn't allow shaders, HVs, particles, interaction with other plugins and network rendering what does that leave for Mr Worley to get his teeth into ?

Panikos
02-17-2005, 06:48 PM
Dont forget Volumetric Lights and bridge to Sasquatch.
Its dissapointing to animate bald characters in 2005
:D