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Tad
01-24-2005, 01:57 PM
- can i use my Lynx card for audio capture and/or playback? it worked great when i was editing on Speed Razor, and prefer all the XLR ins/outs. so far, i've captured and played back audio with the toaster card, but i'm wondering if some of my audio problems are due to converting the 1/8" stereo connectors to a left and right XLR into my deck and mixer.

- the audio i've captured is MUCH lower than the original, but if i crank it up it does sound fine. is there a setting to change this so i don't have to have my deck inputs cranked up all the way?

- i'm getting a massive "echo"/reverb or whatever it might be called when all my cables are plugged in. at this point, the output of the toaster card goes to the XLR inputs on my UVW-1800. then the output of the deck goes into my mixer. the output of my mixer goes to the input on the toaster card. i can see how this would create a loop, so maybe that is the problem BUT this is how the Lynx audio was configured and always sounded great. any suggestions?

Sincerely,

J. Tad Newberry
Big Ya Productions, LLC
(503) 351-0771 office/cel
(503) 579-2267 fax/home

chribba
01-24-2005, 04:26 PM
I am not quite shure how the new VT4 card is workin but some other in here might tell you that...

I found this one!

http://www.lynxstudio.com/toaster.html

radams
01-24-2005, 09:46 PM
Hi Tad,

VT4 software will not work with the Lynx Cards...Unless you are working with SR...(Which is a dead end due to the company being gone)

Here is what I recommend.

VT4's audio has GREATLY impoved audio quality (head room and dynamic range).
Here is what I would do and what may be your echo issue...

Since you are using an external mixer for you input and taking the VT4's output to the deck you are indeed creating an audio loop.

So a simple solution is to either mute the mixer (or turn the fader down) into the VT or with VT4's software mixer mute the External Mixer's inputs or fade them down...when playing back from the VT into your UVW1800...

BTW, I worked with this deck myself....

Now as far as levels...

First setup tone coming from you deck...then setup your mixer to unity for a
-10db signal (yeah it should be at +4) but even VT4's XLR inputs are setup for -10 levels....then setup VT4's mixer levels to UNITY and 0db...the large has mark on the faders...for all sources and masters....the meters on the VT should now read at 0db...
Record this tone...

Now drop this tone's clip into a DDR or TED...and playback with their audio controls at the has mark...if the tone is at 0db all is fine...with VT4 there shouldn' be a significant drop in recording which did exist in VT3 due to the new way audio is handled in VT4....

I hope this helps....

Cheers,

Pete Draves
01-25-2005, 06:50 AM
the zero on the new vu meters is absolute 0. go over with a 16bit 48k wave and it clips

go over with a floating point 48 k an no other program will load it. also the volume
dynamics are not the same as the original tape and can cause problems with the client. I lost a 6 grand job due to this feature.
Pete

radams
01-25-2005, 07:16 AM
the zero on the new vu meters is absolute 0. go over with a 16bit 48k wave and it clips

go over with a floating point 48 k an no other program will load it. also the volume
dynamics are not the same as the original tape and can cause problems with the client. I lost a 6 grand job due to this feature.
Pete


Hello Pete Draves,

As for 0...Unity is at the TOP of the second BLUE bar...and I have tried to blow out VT and I haven't been able to do it...and I mean PINNING the RED...It still holds up and works wonderfully. At least for me.

Now I don't know what your settings are or how your whole signal path is setup...but if you follow what I stated above...you should be fine...
Are you coming directly into the VT from a +4db device? If so I would put a pad it down to -10 or put it thru a mixer...then into VT I think you'll get better performance. and yes there is HUGE dynamic range and head room in VT4...it is the first time I consider VT's audio acceptable for REAL broadcast production.

And you don't need to save everything in FP...you can record with other formats

BTW, I can load FP waves files but that can NOT be quad...quad won't load...but general stereo will work.

Let me see if I can help...

Drop your systems setups and I'll see if I can give some advice as to how to get a better signal run in and out of the VT...

If you want to take this private...
Just email me:

[email protected]

Cheers,

Tad
01-25-2005, 10:16 AM
Since you are using an external mixer for you input and taking the VT4's output to the deck you are indeed creating an audio loop.

So a simple solution is to either mute the mixer (or turn the fader down) into the VT or with VT4's software mixer mute the External Mixer's inputs or fade them down...when playing back from the VT into your UVW1800...

BTW, I worked with this deck myself....

Now as far as levels...

First setup tone coming from you deck...then setup your mixer to unity for a
-10db signal (yeah it should be at +4) but even VT4's XLR inputs are setup for -10 levels....then setup VT4's mixer levels to UNITY and 0db...the large has mark on the faders...for all sources and masters....the meters on the VT should now read at 0db...
Record this tone...

Now drop this tone's clip into a DDR or TED...and playback with their audio controls at the has mark...if the tone is at 0db all is fine...with VT4 there shouldn' be a significant drop in recording which did exist in VT3 due to the new way audio is handled in VT4....

I hope this helps....

Cheers,

Thanks! This helped immensely! The loop is gone, the sound is better, and closer to the original. Now my only question is, "what is 'unity'?" (pardon my idiocy...)

j. tad newberry
big ya productions
portland, or

radams
01-25-2005, 11:52 AM
What is Unity?

Well some people call it 0db...but that isn't fully correct...Unity varies depending upon what level's and reference you using...

But Unity is like the threshold point...the optimum point that gain is set for a whole referenced system... So with most professional mixers...Unit on the fader throw...0db is setup for a + 4db reference level...so you want to be able to set your levels to that hash mark 0db which will give you the optimum levels with less noise and amplification. but allows you headroom to move up or down...it helps to maximize the signal.

-10 db has a different Unity point on meters set for +4...

I know that isn't the audio dictionaries version...but I hope that helps ;)

Cheers,

Tad
01-25-2005, 12:54 PM
uh, sort of! :rolleyes:

i just burned a test DVD of the VT project i was doing yesterday. yes, just pointed the TMPGEnc video requester to the VT Project, then in DVD WS converted the audio to ac-3. it all went smoothly, but the audio on the DVD was pretty hot. any ideas?

j. tad newberry
big ya productions, llc
portland, or

Pete Draves
01-25-2005, 01:32 PM
You have to export the audio separatly using the option
to use the volume settings on the edit line or proscess the audio separtly with a program like soundforge
Pete

radams
01-25-2005, 02:03 PM
Yeah,

Don't do THAT!!!!

In other threads here you will read about the issues with the AVI wrapper...

One BIG issue is that the audio is too hot for apps like TMPEG...TMPEG wants audio at -12 db...not +4....and the VT is too loud for this to work...

So at this time...you can render everthing out with a new reference level...-12db

or setup so everything is at 0db unity...do your mix...then use the Tool shed with a preset to change all of your audio clips to -12 db reference..in the advance control tree tab...

Good Luck,

Cheers,

Tad
01-31-2005, 09:40 PM
ah geez! now i'm really starting to miss my Speed Razor 2000 and my Lynx card! excluding the -12db thing above, i've done all the other stuff ("calibrating" the VT audio mixer to a tone, etc.) and i thought i had it pretty much figured out. when i am outputting from my UVW-1800, the audio sounds great (so i know the source is fine). audio going into the VT mixer was always coming out hot (it was "crushing"), so i brought down the "VT inputs" (far left faders) to about -20. now i can see what is actually happening. at -20db, the audio waveforms graphs now do not "peg out" at the top of the timeline bars, but they top out somewhat near the top and have a plateau look to them. therefore i can tell that "something" in the toaster is clipping everything at that level (regardless of where i set my input level on the VT mixer).

how do i fix this?

next issue: making a DVD. so now the above thread is saying that TMPGEnc doesn't even work with Toaster audio? geez! so now i need to do what to the audio to make it work in TMPGEnc? do i re-render" it in VT and somehow change the level to -12?

so many hoops to jump through, so little time...

thanks to anyone who can help with this one....

jtn

radams
01-31-2005, 11:22 PM
As I've stated here and on other threads...

1) take your audio thru an external mixer...put that external mixer's master Unity at -10 db(most have a hash mark showing this..mackie does)...then you'll have a -10 signal coming into the VT....

Keep all your VT levels at 0db unity....

Now you've maximized the dynamic range and levels into the VT..

Now once you've got and keep your source footage at 0db Unity in the VT..

Now do your edit...

To get -12 bd unity to work with TMpeg..etc....there are a couple of options

1) If you have all the audio using 0db reference...then you can setup a tool shed preset...that changes the audio in the control tree (advance section) t0 -12...

then it is a simple matter of selecting all the audio in the project and using that preset...then you are dropping the unity from 0db to -12 db which TMpeg and some other apps work with....

now

2) you can always render out the project with the reference set to -12 db...then all is fine as well...

there are a couple of other methods...but I do want to say that I agree with you that this should be changed and made easier and streamlined...that it is making people jump thru hoops to do...

Just understand that this is workable...not necessarily desirable.

So does this help...Do you know how to setup Toolshed user presets?

Good luck and if you have any other questions just drop them on by ;)

Cheers,

ScorpioProd
01-31-2005, 11:39 PM
uh, sort of! :rolleyes:

i just burned a test DVD of the VT project i was doing yesterday. yes, just pointed the TMPGEnc video requester to the VT Project, then in DVD WS converted the audio to ac-3. it all went smoothly, but the audio on the DVD was pretty hot. any ideas?

j. tad newberry
big ya productions, llc
portland, or

Note that if the audio is really hot but NOT distorted at all, you may be able to lower it to where you want it simply with the audio level control in DVD WS.

Tad
01-31-2005, 11:43 PM
Ray,

i realize you have stated this before (the first half, at least) but be patient with my as i'm about as technical as a . . . well, i can't think of a good analogy, but i don't consider myself a technical genius. (technically, i guess i'm an idiot! : )

starting with step 1, i do have a Mackie 1402, and set the main outputs to -10 (is that what you meant by "Master Unity?"

all levels in VT mixer at 0.

same results. pegging at the top of the line on the timeline in VT.

didn't proceed since i couldn't get past step 1. . .

radams
01-31-2005, 11:56 PM
Hi Tad,

You're doing great....

And your absolutely correct that when I stated master unity...to -10..it is the settings on the master fader on your mackie 1402...there should also be a hash mark there...

And then the VT's faders are all setup to 0db unity...

GREAT!!

Step one ready and set to jet.

Can you drop a screen grab of what you're saying about the pegging at the top of the timeline??...I'm not really understanding what your seeing or hearing.

Now as for step two...

The easiest work around is what Eugene does...He renders out the project but with a different reference point...-12db...

But if you want to use the avi wrapper and still use the VT meters to mix with...then you will have to have all sources into the VT setup as 0db for their unity...do the edit and then change/shift the unity point from 0db to -12db...the easiest way to do that is thru a toolshed preset....

Cheers.

Ray Adams

Tad
02-01-2005, 12:30 AM
Ray,

thanks for your help, and your patience! i found that if i set my Mackie main mix out AND the faders on Mackie channel 1 and 2 (the beta source tape) ALL to -10, then i got pretty good audio in VT (maybe that was what you meant all along?). either way, that part is working, unless now i'm ending up with weaker audio than need be.

anyway, for what i need to do tonight, this will get me through. i only needed to do the TMPGEnc for another project, but it can wait till i get back. i'm leaving for a shoot in the morning, but hope to get this little project done first. thanks for your help, and i'll catch up with the rest of the thread when i get back.

jtn

radams
02-01-2005, 12:44 AM
Hi Tad,

Have a good post session tonight and great shoot in the morning...

FYI, the best way to setup the mixer and signal is this...

First setup the mixer to be at 0db unity...put tone from the tape source thru...and setup your input gain and levels to that they are around unity....

once that is done to the mixers meters....then take the MAIN output from the mixer and set it up to be at -10 db for UNITY...

Now the meters on your mixer will be low...that's okay...now setup the VT so that the output from the mixer is now at 0db in the VT...try to keep everything at the 0db unity levels...both input and output...

This will maximize your throughput and dynaimc range with the VT at this time.

NT please again note that WE NEED to have a +4db input into the VT somewhere...the XLR inputs are still NOT @ +4...they are running at -10db

Another option is to put a pad on the output from the mixer to the VT to allow you to keep the levels and meter on the mixer @ +4 but then convert to -10 for the VT... but we should NOT have too do this NT!

Also see my new thread inregards to the wrapper audio...it is easier to use ;)

Cheers,

Tad
02-09-2005, 04:58 PM
i'm back and ready to tackle this again.

did another test this morning. had my mackie output set to -10, and adjusting my tone (from my source tape) until i got a "0" in the toaster mixer. batch captured with no problem. upon playback from the timeline in VTedit, the audio still sounds a little hot, even though the audio waveforms looked good (not "plateaued" on the timeline).

made a DVD, and the audio sounded about the same as it had in VT. great video, though!

should i be inputting the audio at still a lower level? like -15 or -20 (output from the mackie?), or should i be lower the audio once it gets into the Toaster?

thanks again,

tad

radams
02-10-2005, 01:35 AM
TAD you have two issues...

1) the monitoring out of the VT

2) the export to the DVD...

to answer:

1) if you have setup the system into the VT as you stated then you also need to setup the output...so your speakers/headset...need to be setup properly..

Are you listening thru the XLR's out or thru RCA outs??

VT is supposed to have a +4 dbu output from the XLRs but I've seen it a little low and others have had it blowing them out at +8dbu...

If you are listening thru the XLR outputs...then you MUST hear it thru a +4 db signal chain and lower the volume to better match it....if you are listening thru the RCA's then a -10 dbu signal chain...

It sounds like you have again a miss match in the signal chain...

2) there is a known bug that when you setup the levels in VT to be at 0db...that when you avi wrap or render. The audio at 0dbu is TOO hot for TMPEG or DVD WS....

I have posted a simple work around

A) after editing the whole project...
make it a sub project...
go to the AUDIO control tree in the advance tab...
put in -12.00...this will drop the overal levels and keep the mix but drop the reference point from 0dbu to -12dbu unity...now you can export and the audio will be perfect...

or


B) Render the video and audio out but use the reference of -12db...Okay;)
Note this has been bugged to NT and I hope we'll see a fix for this and several things in the next SP...

Cheers,

Tad
02-10-2005, 09:28 AM
i will pursue the exporting a little more later, but for now, to answer your question as to how i'm listening to my audio, it is set up as such:

the stereo mini out of the VT card is converted into two XLR inputs into my UVW 1800. from there, it is XLR out of the deck to XLR in to my Mackie mixer. i am using the 1/4" phone outs from the Mackie converted back to stereo mini to go into the VT card. no RCA's anywhere, and assuming the XLR's are "equal" to the 1/4" plugs? the only reason i'm using 1/4" on the output is that was the "cleanest" adaptors i had at the time, and have actually had a hard time trying to find a single cord that is stereo mini on one end, split into two XLR's. actually i would need two of these cables, one ending in a pair of male ends, one ending in female. (by the way, do you know of a good online place for cables? i've tried the local radio shack as well as a place that "specializes" in electronic stuff like this, but they didn't have a single cable to do the job.)

anyway, maybe this sheds some light on my situation.

now, as to the sub-project end of your post, i think i can muddle through that end of it. quick question: how does a sub-project relate to the main project it comes from?

thanks again for your patience and knowledge

tad

radams
02-10-2005, 12:42 PM
So you do not have an SX-8 or 84, Correct?

Thanks for your info on the config...

I would recommend the following...
1) you use the beta 1800 to go into the Mackie...
I would take the XLR's out of the Beta and come into the mackie with BALANCED TRS 1/4...if it is unbalanced then you may have impedence issues as well...

So get a GOOD cable with tip, ring, sleeve balanced...

Now here comes two options....

1) instead of using the mackie main output to the VT....
use either the aux send or the phone plug...convert the cable to the 3.5 for the VT and then you can keep the levels at -10db and still see the main outputs at +4dbu...thus you have a good meter to read with...

2) take the phone outputs from the mackie main convert them into 3.5 mm for VT input...but you will have to put the main to -10dbu for unity...thus the meters become less usefull...

Next Instead of going from the VT's 3.5 mm into the deck directly...

I would put it back thru the mackie...

1) make a cable that goes from the 3.5mm to two 1/4 inch connections...UNBALANCED...then feed that into one stereo channel...or better,
feed that into the Mic/LINE channels ....pan one left the other right but you will trim and level controls to help boost the signal...

Then take the main output from the mackie back into the Beta deck...
Just make certain that you mute the Beta in when recording or when you want to hear the VT...as you can see there are several options...

I prefer taking the beta thru the aux send...but setting the level out to -10dbu...
that leaves the phone output for monitoring either the beta or VT...

There are several things going on and I suggest that you might want to touchbase with an audio professional in your area or your NT dealer as to how better to create your audio signal path...

Cheers,

Tad
02-10-2005, 02:18 PM
you, sir, are a flood of valuable info!

thanks again. i will print it and work on it. for now, keeping the levels down as they go out of the Mackie makes it sound pretty good. (but i do still miss the ease of us of my Speed Razor and Lynx card!)

tad

radams
02-11-2005, 01:47 AM
you, sir, are a flood of valuable info!

thanks again. i will print it and work on it. for now, keeping the levels down as they go out of the Mackie makes it sound pretty good. (but i do still miss the ease of us of my Speed Razor and Lynx card!)

tad

That is because the LYnx could work as either +4dbu (default) or -10dbu unity.

Cheers,

bradl
02-11-2005, 10:48 PM
I sure with Newtek would publish (maybe have someone like Ray or Eugene write it) a set-up guide concerning these issues. Their silence makes it seem like they won't admit there are issues to be dealt with.

Audio signal flow and successful DVD production seem to be two areas that most people are concerned about and except for these forums not much VT specific info available from the manufacturer.