PDA

View Full Version : Frustrated: Same Beta Testers, 7.5b and 8.2?



private
01-21-2005, 07:01 AM
I'm frustrated. I'm responsible for testing out the new features on our test machine. Unfortunately, I was in a negative mood from the get go from reading some of the early adoptees to Lightwave 8.2. When I finally got a chance to install, I had similar problems.

I don't know how long the beta testing phase was, but this is a similar problem as we had to experience with 7.5b. That was not considered a glorious day in Lightwave memory. Even though I'm really happy with some of the new features with the renderer and UV Mapping, little things really annoy me, like the inability to resize a panel in modeler to bone tool problems, IK Booster and Lightwave's whole philosophy to buck the standard way of dealing with bones and IK (unlike two big name 3D packages) and the spreadsheet.

Since Lightwave 8 was announced, the concentration was supposed to be on the character animation tools. Modeler hasn't been touched for the most part (other than plugin adoption from outside sources), if you don't count the new UV tools (which is great).

The SDK changes are probably a step in the right direction for the future, but it's an uphill battle with what we have and use now. I really hope the next update doesn't miss the opportunity to streamline Modeler (how many tools do we need that do the same thing?) and to fix what's been broke.

Since there are obvious problems, maybe Newtek should look into getting a bigger beta testing force and carefully screening the ones currently doing it. The bone tool mistakes and the numeric panel are so obvious, it's a wonder how they were missed. I can understand with the spreadsheet, as it's never been considered "rock solid".

Sounds silly, but a better beta testing crew might have to be considered as a feature request. Does that go directly to Deuce?

Please, let's make 7.5b memories stay in the past and gather cobwebs. Please give us the 8.2.1 fixes immediately, as they are probably things that are probably fixed by now by your programmers.

Chris S. (Fez)
01-21-2005, 07:58 AM
I think it is high time they tried something different. If 8.2 worked it would be great but, as it is, the release is a bit of an embarrassment.

They released useless rigging tools to their customers. How does that happen? How long before they release a fix? Do they really expect customers to wait months and months for useable tools? The MAC guys must be going insane...from what I gather the rigging tools never really worked for them.

What about the poor bastards just getting into Lightwave? Can you imagine the frustration of following a tutorial with broken tools? It is mind boggling to me that Newtek felt 8.2 was fit for public consumption.

There is a lot in Lightwave 8.2 to be excited about, but there is also quite a bit to cause loyal customers concern.

private
01-21-2005, 08:11 AM
I don't think the rigging tools are flawed, but some obvious bugs were missed by the current beta testing team. That BUGS me, pardon the pun.

I do however think that Lightwave's way of dealing with IK and FK and the addition of IK Booster confuses people coming to Lightwave and enlightens people when using another package.

New users have it hard. Other packages have bones and minimal clicks. We have skelegons, bones, IK, booster...blah, blah. Simple is better. Isn't that what modeler is based on? (but it can be streamlined even more!)

I appreciate how Peter and Kurtis and Chuck seem more active on the forums. They seem extremely sincere. I love that, but just like when some one spills a drink, it needs to be cleaned up right away. This is a new team and new way of doing things. This is an opportunity to keep the ball rolling.

Chris S. (Fez)
01-21-2005, 08:15 AM
Don't get me wrong. I don't mean Lightwave's rigging tools are useless. Far from it. I just meant they have been rendered basically useless in 8.2 by bugs.

Zarathustra
01-21-2005, 08:24 AM
What really burns me up is when people are reporting this bug or that bug or less then advertised results here or there, you have the fanboy hobbists that post these "cool" or "this is great!" posts concerning the update. Example (http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?p=244456#post244456)

Or trying to reach some answers when testing out the new renderer, figuring out which settings may best work for which scenes under which conditions and people post "its a lot faster" or "my scene's rendering 50% faster" without any mention of the scene in question, details of the scene, posted renders, etc.

Are these fanboys the same people who are beta testing? That would explain things like what's going on now and that 7.5b thing.

Argh!

Chuck
01-21-2005, 08:42 AM
Zarathustra, you will cease the name-calling and the personal attacks or you will be banned. However much you may dislike it, the fact is that people have different points of view than you do, and you are not entitled to attack their character and call them names because they have a different point of view.

The rules of this board are for civil discourse, and name-calling such as "fanboys" and "sycophants" is not civil discourse.

Zarathustra
01-21-2005, 08:54 AM
I will make every effort to divorce myself from personal emotions when posting in the future, which includes applying a name or title to people's actions.
I'll just stick to facts. That should suffice without any need for such flowery language on my part.

Thanks for posting and not just absently booting me. That's class.

Chuck
01-21-2005, 09:04 AM
The methodical approach that you take to trying things out is also class. Believe me, any issue that may exist, we want to solve for the users. We feel strongly that 8.2 is a good update based on the lengthy list of issues that are resolved - even if some new ones were introduced along the way. We'll get those new ones knocked out by next update. It is not yet appropriate to provide a projection, but as we've said and demonstrated with two updates since the initial release of [8], we plan to keep them coming on a more frequent basis.

colkai
01-21-2005, 09:05 AM
In defense of newteks poor coders who people seem to think aren't paying attention to bugs...


Software Fixes:

* Modeler:
o EPSF Importer fails with pathname longer than 32-characters
o Endomorphs in objects from 8.0.1 cannot be altered
o Renaming layers in Modeler crashes application.
o Layout and Modeler: Search feature in Layout/Modeler for Menu Config broken
o Center1D cannot execute
o Dragnet causes crash
o Equilateral TRI does not work on Z-Axis
o Selected point count is wrong
o Autofit does not work in the UV Window
o Object collapser doubles polygon count on selected object
o Delete Layer copies Layer name from wrong object
o Insert Layer gives a name to moved layer that did not have a name to begin with
o Insert Layer changes contents of clipboard
o Small panels redraw incorrectly with side by side controls
o Point Clone crashes on points with no polygons
o Reduce polys+ does not work properly
o Using Dragnet with UV unweld causes Modeler to crash
o Snap Drag Tool in UV Map window does not work properly
o Dragnet resize does not show
o Helix crashes Modeler
o UV Snap and Drag tools do not function properly
o Fail to save object incrementally
o Save Layer as Object would not automatically place ".lwo" on the file name.
o Error reported in line 50 (math operation) when saved as an increment object
o (Mac) Radial guides and similar feedback indicators are visible again
o (PC and Mac) Bones now scale properly when using the mouse
o Undo causes crash when running Edge Tool plugins
o Modeler & Layout:
o Configure keys/menus buttons highlight wrong
o Presets window crashes Layout/Modeler when trying to create a library
o Not a bug. Loading a JPEG hardcrashes LightWave on G3. G3 is not supported, G4 or higher required.
o Window gets moved down on second monitor as if menu bar were there
o Loading LWO file with TIFF files crashes Layout and Modeler
o Escape key equals enter key, should now restore the original value when escape key is pressed
o Scanning plugins does not save plugins properly when hub closed
o Window positions now save
o (Mac) File pathnames are no longer limited to 32 characters, the operating system default of 255 characters is the new limit
o Save Incremental saves over other increments
o Plugins spelled inconsistently and overwriting command keys on buttons
o 8bit images being interpolated as 24bit
o Drag and Drop making plugins children of other plugins
o Error when entering a specific frame number for a key in Graph Editor

...And that is just in Modeller ....
The whole list of bug fixes is too long to fit into one message ;)

Consider it a post to try and bring some balance. :)

Chris S. (Fez)
01-21-2005, 09:20 AM
Again, I don't doubt Newtek is working hard, but I think something has gotta give here. Something went way wrong with the 8.2 Beta testing. I am not sure how else to explain such obvious bugs being released.

I think Chuck is doing an incredible job on the PR department. Newtek is very lucky to have him...but the man can do only so much damage control. It is up to the coders to come through here.

radams
01-21-2005, 09:44 AM
Well Chris you are right that Chuck is the best example of personable, professional class!!

As stated this is a new Dev team and it takes time to get everything in place...
There were some SDK and many bug fixes that went into this besides additional features...

I hope that any of you who experience an issue or bug...will help by first write down the steps to reproduce the issue and for you to post and report the bug to NT here on this forum...

It is then they can find and squash these nasties...

I don't think anyone espcially NT release a product without making it the best they can especially a free update...

But there have been some nasty bugs found and some major breaks for several thrid party plugins....which I hope in the future NT will give a heads up to the 3rd party community before a formal release to allow us to do some testing and even have fixes ready for when updates are released...

Cheers,

Emmanuel
01-21-2005, 10:14 AM
Well, I am not a "Dr." like Mr. Cross, and no, I havn't updated from 7.5 yet.
To me, this whole issue STILL looks like it would absolutely have been better to start over again and redo LW from scratch, like the Luxology guys.
Not like Dr.Cross plans to do it.
Sooner or later, I strongly believe that this whole thing will hit a dead-end, LW has been patched now for several revisions without having been a real rewrite.
You probably can patch quite a lot, but how long and how efficiently can You patch
4 or 5 year old code ?
Every software that was rewritten, such as XSI, Modo, C4D etc gets better updates, is faster, and in most cases, more stable than LW.
I am working with 7.5 for now, and keep an eye on LW's progress, but quite frankly,
since LW 8 I am not one of the spontaneous LW-buyers anymore.
I know "issues will be adressed in future updates", but since 3 revisions now I am disappointed that the gloriously hyped things like IKB, character tools, modelling tools etc don't seem to be top notch but rather half-baked solutions.
Advertising the improved AA features without mentioning its only for the edges not the textures is, well, let's say it can "mislead" customers.
I also heard that Spriteedger might not work properly with some of the new modes.
Sharper detail is vital for 2d game models, though, so if Spriteedger don't work, what's the point ?
Whats the point in having IKB and bone dynamics but having to bake keys ?
I woud rather wait and have full-baked, perfectly working solutions instead of features that get ironed out over two or thre revisions, because I am tired of first beeing happy about new features and then learning about their shortcomings and that "these things will be adressed in future revisions".
Much more important that AA features would be edges and ngons in modeler or sub-pixel-displacement in Layout, everything else is just some kind of distractive move.
I know other software like Maya or Max do the same, but I hoped that Nt would learn from other companie's mistakes and would only release well tested, feature complete updates.
My two cents.

Zarathustra
01-21-2005, 10:27 AM
A chain is as strong as it's weakest link(s).
Stupid bugs and oversites, unfortunately, overshadow most accomplishments and fixes.

IMO I don't think NT can afford the time to coccoon LW for a couple of years and then emerge with a pretty, new LW but I could be wrong. I've been using 7.5 for a long time now and apparently, will continue to do so for some time to come so maybe it could be done. Anyway, it's off the main topic of this thread, I think.

Chuck
01-21-2005, 10:36 AM
Emannuel, you are misunderstanding what is going on in LightWave development. It is not merely patching. The core is being redesigned in an incremental fashion and in the process we are producing an architecture that will be far more modular than previously and therefore easier to update, extend, replace and multiplex the elements of the production pipeline of the application for NewTek and for third party developers. This is a procedure that NewTek development has honed within the Video product team and is now applying to our LightWave flagship product.

Elmar Moelzer
01-21-2005, 10:38 AM
Private, Chris, Zarathustra and Emmanuel please contact me privately at:
[email protected]
Thanks
CU
Elmar

wacom
01-21-2005, 10:58 AM
I'm not trying to cover up for them...but when you mess with the core your chances of messing up things is great. Many of them can't be easliy found in beta testing. Someone sort of talked about the XSI ground up re-write, but what they forgot to put down is that XSI was, for many users, very buggy until 3.X. From 1 to 3.X wasn't free folks. Put it in perspective.

Besides, they could re-write it all...and break everything that was in your old scenes etc. But something makes me think they kind of want a work in progress- and for your work to progress.

Still...when a basic feature is broken it needs to be fixed ASAP.

-NG-
01-21-2005, 11:16 AM
Still...when a basic feature is broken it needs to be fixed ASAP.

Right. :)

But give the guys at NT some time, these are things that can't be done in a hast. Every code and new things have there little bugs, you can never create the perfect code. And remember every one makes mistakes(if it's with coding or whatever)and people always tend to learn from it, keeping that in mind i'm waiting for the next update :)

cresshead
01-21-2005, 12:23 PM
it's all a matter of where you are looking from...
some see as newtek is "messing" with the core whereas others see newtek as "developing" and "re writing" the core ...in any view that means fundemental changes which is what all people want for lightwave if it is to grow and develop and keep up or overtake the other competative apps that are also growing such as max, maya an xsi as someone has already pointed out there's always pain with gain and beta testing can only go so far...at some stage you output to the real beta test crew...the general public...remember when xsi came out it had no modeling tools and relied on softimage 3 to be bundeled in with xsi...thing will break and in the read me when you install it does remind you to back up and have alternaive installs of lightwave too...it's not perporting to be perfect on release.

by the looks of it lightwave is going down the modular route in a similar fashion to maya and xsi but without a re write wholsale and a totally new app like what xsi did and lost 2yrs of good name/sales by doing so to maya.

it's a fine and difficult line to tread...change the app but retain it's "feel" and do not lose users but keep up there with the bigboys new tools.

steve g

red_eyes23
01-21-2005, 12:45 PM
I haven't tried yet the new update BUT,if a whole team of programmers work for us and realease a FREE update, also if it is not perfect,you just must say thanks.
And if this is a "passage" release for a greater stability it is welcome since the moment I prefer a lightwave realease 9 really stable instead of a release still having problem.
I work with lightwave so what I can tell you is before installing a new release you must be sure you won't loose all your past work.
Since the moment I use no plugs except worley Fprime,I can't say nothing to all the people who use plugs and is not happy with the 8.2 release.
Last thing ,If you are not happy with people that work for you FREE,change software and you will see that for this price is not easy to find something like lightwave.
But maybe my opinion is not valid 'couse I'm a lightwave lover.

Nemoid
01-21-2005, 01:25 PM
I think Nt is doing the right passes to improve Lw.

Chuck words are clear to me. changements are not just what we see in the surface, but rather core changements as well. now, if some new bugs seem to be in 8.2 ( i didn't tried it yet) they will be addressed soon. I like Chuck's speaking of a more modular structure.
Lw needs to become very opened, and hopefully, more modular, and modern in its core structure.

Now call me mad, but i think that after an hard period of slow movement, Nt machine is starting to go faster. :)

Maybe there's a different path from a total rewrite from scratch, and this can be also a more soft- internal process. what's important are the end results , not the process itself.

so keep up the good work,Nt team, maybe find also new and hard betatesters too. it's not difficult IMO. i also know some great italian users wich could do this very well and would be proud to help you out. :cool:

DigiLusionist
01-21-2005, 03:42 PM
I guess I, too, think that as a free update, we shouldn't freak out too much about any bugs.

I have long argued that the core code needs to be completely rewritten to bring LW up to date. That will result in a great number of glitches, as is to be expected.

I will only be upset with NT if the next paid upgrade is unusable. Otherwise, I have decided to give the dev guys a break and wish them the best as they work these things out.

Zarathustra
01-21-2005, 03:46 PM
I still rely on 7.5 for all my professional work due to stability issues and other weird bugs in 8.

So I don't see this necessarily as a free update as much as them still trying to deliver me a working 8 upgrade which I paid for a year and a half ago.

private
01-21-2005, 05:37 PM
The methodical approach that you take to trying things out is also class. Believe me, any issue that may exist, we want to solve for the users. We feel strongly that 8.2 is a good update based on the lengthy list of issues that are resolved - even if some new ones were introduced along the way. We'll get those new ones knocked out by next update. It is not yet appropriate to provide a projection, but as we've said and demonstrated with two updates since the initial release of [8], we plan to keep them coming on a more frequent basis.

This is excellent. Please follow through. The newer model is much better than the older model.

DigiLusionist
01-21-2005, 05:47 PM
I can understand your point of view, Zara. In your position, I would probably feel the way you do.

This transition has been and is a rough one. We'll all just have to weather it as best we can.

Despite any reservations or concerns we may have, though, as LightWave users we will probably hang in there as the clouds pass. Eventually, a truly new version of LW will manifest. I can only hope it is in the form of an application that realizes LightWave's potential.

I'm not loyal to much in life, save God, family, and country. But, I guess LW IS something I care enough about to consider being patient with.

Dodgy
01-21-2005, 05:58 PM
I've yet to find a fully functioning as advertised 3d software. Maya? Can't use UV editing for more than 30 mins without it crashing. Tools don't work, normals get screwed up, all sorts. That was completely rewritten from the ground up, and is on version 6 now and they still haven't fixed some of the outstanding issues we have, and we use it heavily. A friend of mine, the biggest fan of softimage you'll find, says XSI has only really become vaguely stable with version 3. Again, completely re-written. I've even known Cinema 4d crash on me, and I've only used it a few hours, so how stable is it going to be when I'm using it continually? I have to say I do feel it's probably the most stableout of the one's I've tried. I can't say anything about 3dsmax, I could never get past the clunky interface. That was a complete rewrite supposedly to make it cleaner, now version 7 is bloated. Again, I have a friend who swears by it. He also swears at it too..

If you think Lw is bad, the others all have their own problems. I won't say I haven't had problems with LW, but I haven't had it anywhere as bad as some people seem to have here. I like working with it. Does this mean I don't get to say this because I have had a positive experience? If they're going to get all this criticism, it's only fair that the users who have had a good time with lightwave get to push their side too I think.

We can see from the bug list they've squashed a bucket load of bugs (and listed them, like some users suggested!) . Having used LW since 5, I've felt 8.0 was the tidiest release ever. 7 was a nightmare, and 7.5 was stable, now LW is going through a behind the curtains rewrite, while in the main remaining compatible with older versions. That's quite a neat trick!

Meanwhile I'll keep posting my bugs to newtek, asking for new features, and seeing how it goes. In the meantime don't have a go at me for appreciating their software on their own webpages.

PS, I'm beginning to like IK booster quite a lot too :) Maybe I'm the only one ;)

Zarathustra
01-21-2005, 06:40 PM
That's a terrible rationale, Dodgy that I refuse to buy into.
LW has bugs and instabilities, but other 3D apps have bugs and instabilities; therefore, LW is ok.
No, sorry, that's no good.

As soon as everyone becomes complacent with inadequacy or we define good not by achieving good but by not being as bad as others then we've all failed.

cresshead
01-21-2005, 06:59 PM
i think we're heading toward a locked thread....but...

by very the same token if you can only judge "good" as being perfection and without a single blemish then you really should not use any software or buy any manufactured product as there will always be errors and inacurracies in production...that goes for software/hardware for pc's and cars and building homes...even space probes..they all strive to make a perfect product but with time, workforce numbers and budgetery constrainsts people have to make a judgement on if it's fit for release yet or not...

we we've seen here most if not all software has bugs on release...just look at microsoft and the amount of patches they apply to it on a regular basis....

noone is saying it's "okay" to release with a load of known bugs...no doubt newtek and alias do not want to ship a product with any bugs...but they are found on release ater the public in it's thousands put it thru so may different configs and plugins variations that they surface quite quickly..

i remember that max 3.0 had a major bug where the whole app disapeared...no warning..nothing..all scene was lost..nowthen discreet should have seen this one...but it slipped thru...and 3.1 was VERY stable as a patched update a few months later.......

now lightwave 8.2 may have a few iron out ammendments but on th whole 8.2 is working fine there's no huge "showstopper" bugs that crash your system and erase the hard drive is there...?

we see you point..we really do!...yet we also see a balance...and you can always use 8.0 or 7.5 if you need to...something that 3ds max cannot do for example...if you were making ascene in max 7.0 and found too many bug errors you could not open that scene in max 6.0...no backwards compatability at all...

cheers

Karmacop
01-21-2005, 07:57 PM
That's a terrible rationale, Dodgy that I refuse to buy into.
LW has bugs and instabilities, but other 3D apps have bugs and instabilities; therefore, LW is ok.
No, sorry, that's no good.

I think what Dodgy is trying to say is that all software has problems, even software that has been rewritten from scratch. Newtek will have a fix out soon for the issues in 8.2. If you think it's too unstable, go back to 8.0.1 for the moment.

tischbein3
01-21-2005, 09:01 PM
1.

History repeating.
a short summary of the forum moods from the announcement of 8.2 to its release:

announcement: big wows

later: rise of expectations and ideas wich have nothing to do with the real feature or announcement list.

after release that it will be a bit later: alower wows, but higher expectations.
first indications of impatience. wich rise ang get more insulting as time goes on

release: mixed feelings, some wows, bug paranoia, and then threads like this.
(And this time, nobody of newtek even tried to give the impression, that this will be the "killer update")

whom of you renembers this of the 8 release ?

I'm not satisfied with 8.2 but I'm satisfied with this update, thanks newtek.

oh BTW: You missed to mention the fixing of the the volumetric raycast function.



2.
As for the news of shorter updates times:

I often wondered why newtek didn't just simply post a plugin / libary when a fix has been made. so this could help tracking down certain long term misfits forever. (Like the scene editor)
The modularisation of lw is something were newtek still didn't play out the full potential.

Wickster
01-21-2005, 09:27 PM
Hey DUDES! enough with the attacks with each other here. the lightwave community i think is one of the tightest and best 3D community on the web right now, lets not ruin that.

ok, let me just post my little opinion on this topic. first off, i consider myself an artist, a designer, an animator and creator of many things colorful, bizzarre or sometimes cool to "LOOK" at. what i don't consider myself is a "programmer" give me one line of the LW code i'd tell you straight out that i think you're cursing at me with that line of letters and numbers. now my question ... aren't we all artist and designers here?

i have deep respect and admiration to the programmers for trying to write a code into our favorite software that would work for you (the one at your office), you (the one witht he laptop), you (the one with the custom built pc) and "EACH" and everyone of you artist out there reading and waiting where this thread ends up. face it we all have our own style and there are thousands of us who use LW and the programmers are trying to update a program that in theory will work for "EACH" and everyone of us.

then there are the BETA testers. how many are there? 25? 100? we can't blame everything on them for doing procedures that they "THINK" how we do procedures. can't blame them for setting up a scene based on their "OPINION" how we set up our scene. some us model starting with a piece of polygon, others start with a box, begin witht he eyes maybe, or how about the chest first. that maybe the reason why others gets bugs and others say its fine. people praise the update cause it works for them, others report bugs cause maybe they or even i never imagine to do things like the way the did. a first major release of something is always a hard release to step onto, because ... well it's unknown. bring-in 8.3 that will probably fix most of the problems yet introduce new ones. that's why we're here. it's our LW, our tool to create our art. they write it we perfect it. if you see a bug report it, by doing so you have just made the next release of LW a little more personally designed by you to work for you. that's how LW have a personal piece of our touch into it. we tell the programmer what we intended to do but didn't work, so they coded and now LW does things that probably only we did before. our style is different than everyone else's so i don't expect LW to work perfectly to accomidate everyone's way of creating.

let's all get back on what we do best "creating and designing" and advice technical people how our way of doing things doesn't seem to work. a good communication between the ones who writes it and the one uses it will surely reasult in a better release.

now don't attack me for my 2 cents. :D

Wickster
01-21-2005, 09:42 PM
as you can see i'm not a speller either. :o

norvman
01-21-2005, 10:25 PM
I think anyone using software and not understanding that it's going to be buggy in some aspect or another is .... not staying grounded in reality....

name one software that works perfectly?






hummm no takers on that one?....

okay so we have establisted that they all have bugs....

so why we pickin' on the NT team? .... cause they let us?... cause they feel obligated to let us do that?.... cause they feel that they owe us something?....
Maybe we just like picking on people who might could lose their jobs if they tried to tell us where to put it?....

Software is like buying a car once you drive it off the lot and signed the papers next to "as is" .... it's your's

Software has always 'been' buggy....
Software always will 'be' buggy....

Software more than any other product on the market is constantly on the cutting edge of possibility and therefore must suffer from a whole range of relighablity issues.....

Now maybe if we weren't asking for the latest greatest things out of our software all the time .... we might see a more stable software tool set.... but then it might not have the latest wing ding thing like the competing software has.... so......

One thing I can say about this 'fanboy'(calling myself names here now) is that I have made an investment....
Not only in the software but in the team of software engineers that build it....

Folks how goofy have we got to be.... to not understand that if your money is riding on these guys to produce good software....
That after we get done chewing them out, raking them over the coals, and beating the holy flying back flips out them....
That they some how are going to be able to get back up and go write the greatest software that anyone has ever seen.....




Does anyone really believe that...... ?

how many of you ..... especially being strongheaded Artist types.....
whould do your very best work after having the guy who is paying you say ... ."you suck".....

Heck I told a guy just the other day to take a hike ......
(he thought some how I was suppost to do my Art for him for free.... ha!)

Now here are these dedicated programers....
just gave us a new upgrade ....
for free no less....
and were going to try to make them feel bad about it so they will go write better software.....

:confused:

I don't get that kind of thinking....

If they are writing bad software it's probably because they stay in a constant state of depresstion from all the people %itchin' at them all the time about all the hard work they put into it....

For me it's simple..... I have invested in Newtek... and Lightwave..... and when I get disatifed with the way they build thier product I will take my business elsewhere...

simple as that....

So as long as I"m with them..... then I"m with them....

help them find the buggs sure.....
help them solve the problems when I can sure....
Encourage them to great work.... when ever I can....

My money is riding on it...... !!!!

but chew them out in public constantly cause they didn't accomplish the impossable (write a perfect software)

not me ..... just doesn't make good logic....

My Lightwave 8.0.1 has been working Great....

Hey Newtek keep up the good work.... !!!

haven't had a chance to download 8.2

harlan
01-21-2005, 11:32 PM
Weeeeeeeeeee... I'll jump in here and throw out an opinion.

Sucks to hear that there were new funky issues created by the 8.2 update, but the amount of fixes included in it is awesome, and they threw in a couple of cool gadgets as well.

Personally, yeah I feel Lightwave in its current state is a good bit behind in the world of 3D products, but it's understandable. It's been a rocky road the past few years.

That being said, seems like I remember that NewTek indicated prior to announcing [8], that LW would be going through some serious changes at the core level to allow it to move forward in a more efficient & effective manner (as Chuck has reiterated). This led me to believe that LW[8] wouldn't be the "blow everyone away" update, and that that update would come down the line.

LW[8] (again in my opinion) was the start of an evolutionary series of steps to progress LW to the next level. These little updates we've had of late, may not be that dramatic visually, but they're essential updates that effectively squash a ton of issues (also creating some inadvertantly) and push the product's core ever closer to that phase when LW can once again be revolutionary. :)

Yeah, I'm rambling a bit, I know. I love LW, it does piss me off occasionally, but I still love it. I've also known the good Dr. Cross for many years now, and I have considerable faith in his skills. Peter also seems to be a cool cat as well.

Anyways. Good job with 8.2 - now fix the quirks and get us an 8.2b tomorrow by lunchtime. :)

c'ya

harlan

colkai
01-22-2005, 03:41 AM
That's a terrible rationale, Dodgy that I refuse to buy into.
LW has bugs and instabilities, but other 3D apps have bugs and instabilities; therefore, LW is ok.
No, sorry, that's no good.

Zara, you are missing the point, either by mis-interpretation, or deliberately.

What he IS saying is, every piece of software you buy, will have bugs in it. If you think that by constant ranting and belittling you are making a strong point, you are not. Report the bugs, with a consise example and get on with life.

Stamping your feet because you didn't get the toy you wanted for xmas is not going to make your stance any more desirable, indeed, it could easily have the reverse effect - you may come across as someone who rants for the sake of ranting, who looks for any opporutiny to shout from the rooftops. Those who do not are NOT sycophantic or fanboys, they simply report the bug and deal with the limitations until a fix arrives.

I will say this again, anyone, and I do mean ANYONE who has worked in the software industry for any amount of time, knows bugs are an unavoidable fact of life.
You think you can write something complex with zero bugs at every release? No - and demanding it should be so ain't gonna change the facts, and no, it isn't complacency, it is a TRUE understanding of the nature of software developemnt.

After 25+ years in the game, I can say this with absolute conviction.



Software has always 'been' buggy....
Software always will 'be' buggy....

Well Said Norvman, along with your other points with which I agree, but this should become a mantra. :)


LW[8] (again in my opinion) was the start of an evolutionary series of steps to progress LW to the next level. These little updates we've had of late, may not be that dramatic visually, but they're essential updates that effectively squash a ton of issues (also creating some inadvertantly) and push the product's core ever closer to that phase when LW can once again be revolutionary.

Yeah, this is the bit I think many don't get - as a developer myself, I know what it's like to do a lot of "background" work to allow future work. It's a joyless task.. "but.. you haven't changed anything .. and now this doesn't work" ..haven't changed anything? 6 months of jeffing code - busting a gut to do major re-write - not DONE anything??? $$*$$% ;) :p

I'd also wager, with some of these apparent "show-stopper" bugs, there is a coder, somewhere in Newtek, going "I don't get it .. I just don't get it" as he looks at a section of code for the 100th time :p :D

Dodgy
01-22-2005, 04:30 AM
Zara, I was saying, as has been stated, you shouldn't be satisfied with buggy software, but then you shouldn't slate people either for not having the problems you've had, and feeling pretty good about the software, or the dev team. They seem as unhappy with there being bugs in LW as you are. They don't go out there to put more bugs in, they've squashed a lot recently, and if there are still more, that means they're still going to be working on it. At least they're interacting with us to try and resolve these issues.



I just hope you don't let your frustration lower your tone towards others. I think it's groovy that you're doing all this testing, it shows a thoroughness other 'this sucks' posts lack, so maybe you can keep up this constructive level?

Tesselator
01-22-2005, 07:14 AM
I'm frustrated.
Yup sounds like it...

I'm responsible for testing out the new features on our test machine. Unfortunately, I was in a negative mood from the get go from reading some of the early adoptees to Lightwave 8.2. When I finally got a chance to install, I had similar problems.

I don't know how long the beta testing phase was, but this is a similar problem as we had to experience with 7.5b. That was not considered a glorious day in Lightwave memory. Even though I'm really happy with some of the new features with the renderer and UV Mapping, little things really annoy me,
I'm into actualities myself. Emotions about this stuff are usless to me.


like the inability to resize a panel in modeler to bone tool problems, IK Booster and Lightwave's whole philosophy to buck the standard way of dealing with bones and IK (unlike two big name 3D packages) and the spreadsheet.
Well you almost got there. The only problem for me is I can't get ANY of these
problems to occur. I have to ask myself, If it happens to you and not me.. then
what's up with that??? Some system incompatability thing or somethig? An odd
way you or I are using it that makes it work or not work? What EXACTLY seems
to be broken? Specifics are actually helpfull! Emotions just cause a bunch of
unneeded noise IMO.


Since Lightwave 8 was announced, the concentration was supposed to be on the character animation tools. Modeler hasn't been touched for the most part (other than plugin adoption from outside sources), if you don't count the new UV tools (which is great).
Discounting features to make a point? I don't get that... But anyway we don't
know what "the concentration" is. As NT hasn't told us and usually doesn't till after a
release. Like for 8.0... they told us AFTER (and JUST before) the release that they
mainly focused on the Character tools. This is usually the case in high profile
developments. Anyway second gussing thier direction and scope and then "feeling"
dissapointment as a result is umm, like, not serving anyone - especiially yourself.

The SDK changes are probably a step in the right direction for the future, but it's an uphill battle with what we have and use now. I really hope the next update doesn't miss the opportunity to streamline Modeler (how many tools do we need that do the same thing?) and to fix what's been broke.
?? I don't have any tools that do the same thing... even the two Shift Tools
are in radical departure... Still some legasy redundance is a requirement in any
upgrade. Is that what you mean?

Since there are obvious problems, maybe Newtek should look into getting a bigger beta testing force and carefully screening the ones currently doing it. The bone tool mistakes and the numeric panel are so obvious, it's a wonder how they were missed. I can understand with the spreadsheet, as it's never been considered "rock solid".
Please be specific. Bone Tool mistakes? Numeric Panel? Nothing wrong
with them here... How do I recreate this badness?

BTW, I consider the SpreadSheet rock solid and I use it a hell of allot!


Sounds silly, but a better beta testing crew might have to be considered as a feature request. Does that go directly to Deuce?

Please, let's make 7.5b memories stay in the past and gather cobwebs. Please give us the 8.2.1 fixes immediately, as they are probably things that are probably fixed by now by your programmers.

Yeah, Hmmm, I'm still not even sure what if anything, is broken. <SHRUG>

I like what Larry said.... Could it be that you're just letting that kinda spam-noise
get you down? I sure would like to know what EXACTLY is actually busted.
:cool:

dalecampbelljr
01-22-2005, 11:39 AM
I think what Dodgy is trying to say is that all software has problems, even software that has been rewritten from scratch. Newtek will have a fix out soon for the issues in 8.2. If you think it's too unstable, go back to 8.0.1 for the moment.

I agree, everyone needs to take a deep breathe and calm down a little. Life as we know it didn't just end. I agree there are bugs/problems but our worlds haven't come to an end or stopped. Lets move on with our lifes and give NT time to fix this.

Zarathustra
01-22-2005, 12:19 PM
I sure would like to know what EXACTLY is actually busted.

I know you've said numerous times over at Splinecage that you lack the time to look stuff up online, so these will get you started...
Minor Display annoyance (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=204012)

Bone Tools
Link (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=203661)
Link (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=203268)

Tiffs (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=203904)

I also want to repeat something I said in another thread just now...
I just don't understand how people can be so dismissive of another's claims of bugs or instabilites. What exactly do you think you're accomplishing by doing that?

If there are users reporting trouble, then it's imperative that we take the time to listen, EVEN IF we, personally, are not currently experiencing it.

If there's a problem, I would think it's in everyone's best interest to identify it and then move on from there. Pretending they don't exist or doing some kind of distraction by responding with a list of things that do work or showing how many bugs another app has is counter-productive.

Kurtis
01-22-2005, 01:44 PM
This thread is now closed.

Both sides have made their opinions abundantly clear, and it's become obvious that neither side is going to sway the other. There is no point in allowing this thread to continue on its current course.

NewTek's Marketing and Engineering Departments are both well aware of the original stated intent of this thread and will take it into consideration.