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Lude
01-20-2005, 05:42 PM
The demo is out anyone tried it, what versions of lightwave will it work with?

Exception
01-20-2005, 07:03 PM
Did a little test. with a scene setup for Lightscape, so dont mind the crap materials and setup please...

Lightwave: 512x350
Radiosity 1 bounce, interpolated, 0.8 tolerance, 100mm, 4x12.
time: 7m 50s

Kray: evryhting standard except Regular grid antialiassing
6min 30 sec.
Looks like crap.


and for a little reference:
Lightscape, radiosity solution 1 hour, lightwave rendering 2 minutes.

Exception
01-20-2005, 07:21 PM
Fprime on exact same scene, Montecarlo 1 bounce, 20 minutes cooking

cresshead
01-20-2005, 07:35 PM
yeah got it...dl it and installed...got th u.i. up but no render out as yet....
going to get /read the manual now....!

cresshead
01-20-2005, 07:39 PM
just gotta say with looking at the above render tests.....lightscape rocks!
such a cool renderer...and really fast too.

i got lightscape a while back..tis Very neat even with all of it's quirks and old tec...nothing really comes close as yet.

Exception
01-20-2005, 07:55 PM
Trying now with Path Tracing in KRay, Octree setting to 3 (I assume this is about the same as ray bounces), and everything else standard.
After 10 minutes, rendering percentage does not even show yet... Whatever, cancel this stuff.
On to the next test...

Cache Irradiance on (10%), FG rays set to 300 instead of 800, GI resolution released from auto and set to 100mm.
Still waiting...
After 12 minutes, rendering has not started. blah.

Next test...
Put it on Photon Mapping... Starts rendering immediately. Takes ages for each light. After 20 minutes and not halfway through the lights yet, cancelled...

Turning on Global Auto Photons again, and second pass irradiance approximation (Precomputed Irradiance). Goes about four times as fast...

Exception
01-20-2005, 07:59 PM
Bear in mind the Lightscape solution took one hour to calculate, but then each image renders really fast. Good for animations.
However, setting up in Lightscape takes some time and a good healthy amount of experience. Then it needs some tweaking in Lightwave again as well. so it is definately not a click-and-go solution. Far from it. I am therefore interested in Kray, as I hope it would be click-and-go... so far its underperforming, but then there are so many settings... arg.

byte_fx
01-20-2005, 09:54 PM
D/l'd the demo, manual, and the two test scenes.

Went thru the install. traced down where it'd put everything so it'd work, loaded up the demo scene files - or rather tried to.

That's when the "Plugin Fprime.p not found" load requester popped up.

Tried a render - waited .. waited longer ... waited some more ... finally gave up as I had no indication anything was happening.

Don't know if it's a demo limitation but the save options seem limited to 4 choices - with only tga and hdr of any real use.

Part of the above is probably my fault due to doing something wrong but still the very fact it apparently requires FPrime in order to work - why else would their demo objects need the pkugin ? - is enough to keep me from buyiing it.

byte_fx

harlan
01-20-2005, 11:11 PM
I'd bet my left BEEEP that it doesn't require FPrime...in fact, I'll just say it; It doesn't require FPrime. The only reason the "Fprime.p not found" would've popped up is if the scene you downloaded to test had been saved with the Fprime plugin applied (Kray probably did some testing with Fprime and forgot to strip the plugin from the scene when they saved it).




D/l'd the demo, manual, and the two test scenes.

Went thru the install. traced down where it'd put everything so it'd work, loaded up the demo scene files - or rather tried to.

That's when the "Plugin Fprime.p not found" load requester popped up.

Tried a render - waited .. waited longer ... waited some more ... finally gave up as I had no indication anything was happening.

Don't know if it's a demo limitation but the save options seem limited to 4 choices - with only tga and hdr of any real use.

Part of the above is probably my fault due to doing something wrong but still the very fact it apparently requires FPrime in order to work - why else would their demo objects need the pkugin ? - is enough to keep me from buyiing it.

byte_fx

prospector
01-20-2005, 11:15 PM
HMMM seems as if Lightscape is gone as of Jan 31, 2003

ingo
01-21-2005, 02:36 AM
HMMM seems as if Lightscape is gone as of Jan 31, 2003

Thats the official version, it left us a few years before when Autodesk bought it.

3DBob
01-21-2005, 05:15 AM
Hi Exception,

I've got a licence of Lightscape 3.2 ( had it plus all the texture CDs since 1998 - Cost nearly £4000! )

I haven't been able to use it with lightwave since 5.6 how did you do this test? I see Okino has a geometry exporter.

Please help me as I love lightscapes quality and would really like to use it again.

3DBob

Exception
01-21-2005, 06:05 AM
3D bob:
Its a long story for which I am writing a tutorial.
Suffice to help you on your way:
Save scene and all objects in LW 5 format, then use the Lightwave importer in Lightscape. Works quite well.


To finish off my Kray story.
After I went to bed in the morning, after 10 hours or so, this is what I got from the last test above:

Lude
01-21-2005, 06:20 AM
wtf is that lol :)

cresshead
01-21-2005, 06:38 AM
looks like the water color filter in photoshop...!

seems kray needs a bit of time spent leaning it to get the most out of it..

Exception
01-21-2005, 06:43 AM
For now I'm sticking with Lightwave and Lightscape or just Lightwave. That first Lightwave render in 7 minutes with anti aliassing is actually quite good. I can easily turn op the ray bounces and the resolution without wasting days.

People shoul learn how to use the interpolated radiosity method in Lightwave properly, and also with the motion blur/AA trick. There are only few applications out there how can beat it in speed when rendering stills. Animations, however, is a whole different ballgame.

I suspect that Kray can look a lot better with more knowledge of its functioning. It would be unfair of me to say that Kray is nonsense, as I dont know how it works, and I DO know how Lightwave and Lightscape work.

I am however tired of experimenting. I did more that enough work on this. I will wait for someone else to take over from here, as I'm going skiing. yaay.

Exception
01-21-2005, 06:47 AM
Thats the official version, it left us a few years before when Autodesk bought it.

The agony.....
And they still keep claiming Lightscape was incorporated in VIZ. Liars!

Ugh, it really hurts deep within that they bought a super program from an excellent software group, undoubtedly with all kinds of promises, and then killed it off as fast as you can say "Discreet Light*".

3DBob
01-21-2005, 08:28 AM
Hi Exception,

I understand that bit thanks, there is also an exporter by Okino which does quite a bit more:-

http://www.okino.com/conv/exp_lslp.htm

- it's just getting it back into lightwave that you seem to achieve.

How do you do that? Thanks in advance

3DBob

ddho1981
01-21-2005, 11:00 AM
Hi Exception,

I understand that bit thanks, there is also an exporter by Okino which does quite a bit more:-

http://www.okino.com/conv/exp_lslp.htm

- it's just getting it back into lightwave that you seem to achieve.

How do you do that? Thanks in advance

3DBob

Can someone tell me more about this? i couldn't see a link anywhere for this specific product as a download/purchase. Is it part of PolyTrans?

pixym
01-21-2005, 03:04 PM
Hi all,

Could you please tell me the link for the scene test?

THX in advance.

gtanski
01-23-2005, 09:41 AM
Hi All!

Some answers to posts.

Exception:

I guess your scene has lot of polygons. You should change default setting for Max octree depth in Misc tab of Kray rendering options to 13,14 maybe 15. This will cause longer initialization time, but will shorten the rendering a lot.

Second important thing is the Diffuse model in General tab. By default it is set to Local than means the Global illumination is disabled. Please change it to Photon mapping and enable Cache irradiance.

Octree is not the same as ray bounces. Setting it to 3 for the scene with more then 1000 polygons will kill the renderer. Values less than 8 are not really useful. I guess I need to add a limit here. Default value 10 should be increased for high polygon scene.

Path tracing is not good for scenes with high number of ray bounces. If you want to get good results for interiors you need to use high number of ray bounces and for such scenes Photon mapping is much faster.

Another post with screenshots. I'm sure it was rendering hours. 200000 polygons and RM:3 for sure works extremly slow. What you have rendered is an approximate solution before final gathering step. Change Diffuse model to Photon mapping and increase Max octree depth to 13 or more. If you change Max octreee depth and leave Diffuse model you can get a water color processed image with GI. I guess becouse FG is off thi s will render in a minute or so.

You have said that there is some time needed and expierience to render the scene with Lightscape. For sure fast and accurate setup for Kray needs both too. Kray can store GI solution for all frames of a walk through animation. Check Shared GI for all frames choose filename for GI file and pick Both (this is needed becouse demo version does not render anims at all). Render the scene once. Than try it again (you can change cam location). Second time it will render much faster.

Everything I am talking about here is in Kray manual .
http://www.kraytracing.com/index.php?subpage=2&file=Kraydoc.pdf

harlan: You are right. One of our beta testers forgot to remove that.

All:
In case of any problems please contact me at:
[email protected]

Greetings,
Grzegorz Tanski

wacom
01-23-2005, 12:06 PM
After seeing people ABUSE FPrime in odd ways and not being respective of some basic rules/issues etc. I can see how this renderer, which is very diffrent from anything else LW right now, is going to take some real reading and testing to get our brains around.

I'm not even going to pass judgement on Kray for at least a month if not more...

3DBob
01-23-2005, 12:12 PM
I Agree - Looks like a great tool for lightwave

3DBob

silverlw
01-23-2005, 03:53 PM
I havent seen much from this renderer so here is some of my test's.
Amd 2400 and rendertimes about 10 minutes each. Please post more images.

http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/Radiosity%20Box.jpg
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/Kray.jpg

Ade
01-23-2005, 05:23 PM
Im having troubles... When I render with Kary on one of those supplied scenes from Kay web site (the church one) it renders them off , the perspective isnt right..
Is this a demo limitation?

BTW anyone buying it?

phil lawson
01-24-2005, 03:49 AM
I installed the demo got it all configured and started to render a scene...got 4 nice water marks and no scene. Time to read the manual me thinks lol.

:)

trick
01-24-2005, 03:54 AM
I guess your scene has lot of polygons. You should change default setting for Max octree depth in Misc tab of Kray rendering options to 13,14 maybe 15. This will cause longer initialization time, but will shorten the rendering a lot....

How much memory do I need setting octree depth of 15 for a 1 million poly scene ??? :confused:

Para
01-24-2005, 09:03 AM
I've tried the demo but now it has started quirking a lot: My problem is that Kray crashes LW (I'm using 8.2). After I manually remove the plugin and then add it again, it works until I reopen my scene file and then starts crashing again. And when I get it to work, all it renders is my groundplane (trying to make a simple GI scene) no matter what object I have loaded (subd or not) to Layout. :confused:

antwik-2
01-24-2005, 01:42 PM
Nice renders silver, you seem to be the only one of 1000 interested in ths subject that got some decent results to show.
Im still going through does tutorials.

wacom
01-24-2005, 05:42 PM
silverLW is a renderer freak! He was one of the first to figure out what makes and breaks a lot in Fprime. Glad to see he's busy cracking away at Kray. Let's hope he doesn't have too much time though...due to the every looming prospect of Fprime 1.X!

silverlw
01-24-2005, 07:02 PM
Yeah probably ;)

Anyway. I picked an old scene and did some tests in Kray. Dont judge noise and errors on kray, im just fiddeling and experimenting. Worth to mention I did NOT use any light's at all for this. I just cranked up luminosity to 3000% for those bright polys in the roof. I'm impressed by the outcome.

Filtered photonmap:
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/Filtered%20Photonmap.jpg

And some irradiance caching:
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/IrradianceCaching.jpg

And 24 bounces 6-7 minutes rendering, combined result with some finalgather:
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/Finalgather.jpg

Oh and my old Vray test, only 10 bounces and arealights but extremly quick as you can see on the final rendertime:
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/Vraytest.jpg

silverlw
01-25-2005, 08:00 AM
Tweaked it a bit more to get rid of noise. about 7 minutes render and 24 bounces :rolleyes: I used lumonosity 100% and the rest of light if from 3 arealights.
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/Direct-indirect7min.jpg

silverlw
01-25-2005, 08:24 AM
4 minutes render
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/Direct-indirect4min.jpg
ok il stop this now and for those who want to try it for them selfes, heres the scene. and GI Settings file.
(V)Kray GI scene (http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/Kray_room.rar)

trick
01-25-2005, 08:45 AM
silverlw:

Nice looking results.

I have tried it on some 400k poly architectural models with lots of details, but the best time I got with the demo (resolution) is around 40 min, from which half is the final render pass without antialiasing. As a reference: the same scene/resolution takes 12 min in VRay, from which 2 minutes final pass WITH AA. I have read the complete manual and experimented with different settings: this is the best time without splotches. AA on this detailed scene is so slow that I cancelled rendering.
I hope they will do some optimizations soon, because I'm getting tired of moving between MAX and LW:(

gtanski
01-25-2005, 09:44 AM
Ade:

There is no such limitation in demo. This must be something wrong. If you still have this problem, please contact me at: [email protected]

trick:

This has a little influence on memory consumption. This is only the max octree depth. Maximum is reached only in areas in scene where the density of polygons is high (and not always it reaches maximum). This is a depth Kray tries to decompose scene.

Para:

Kray should not crash LW in any way becouse its interface is written in Lscript (and should be safe for LW) and renderer is a separate .exe and can crash only itself (not the LW). It works on other installations of LW 8.2. Contact [email protected], if you help I sure we will find why it happens.

trick again:
What was the Max octree level in the scene? If it is too low, it may be the reason why it was rendering so slowly.

silverlw:
Nice work! I did some params tweaking to Your scene. I don't know what PC you have. But I think it renders faster now.

http://fenix.artur.info/kraytracing/test1.jpg

Scene with my params is here (http://fenix.artur.info/kraytracing/Kray_room.zip)
I set luminosity to 0 and used area lights (areas are faster, but luminosity can have any shape). I disabled caustics. They are not visible in this scene, so there is no need to waste CPU for them.

Rendering time was 4 minutes, but note the CPU was Athlon 1700XP (1.4 Ghz). Try it on Your PC silverlw, we will know how fast it really is.

silverlw
01-25-2005, 10:22 AM
hehe Thanx for the input and more optimized settings. I will look closely to what you have done and you were right! 3minutes and 36 seconds! It would have been faster if it didn't have to use AA resources to fix aliasing on those 4 big K's at the screen. Remove The K's because it's crippled enough anyway. Czesc!

trick
01-25-2005, 10:31 AM
...
This has a little influence on memory consumption. This is only the max octree depth. Maximum is reached only in areas in scene where the density of polygons is high (and not always it reaches maximum). This is a depth Kray tries to decompose scene...

...
What was the Max octree level in the scene? If it is too low, it may be the reason why it was rendering so slowly
...

Max Octree Depth was 15, and memory consumption was almost 1.6GB while with depth 10 it only uses 140MB. It's simply a white unicolored scene without lights or textures and only background set to white. When I look at the memory the Kray PROCESS uses in Taskmanager it seems that it never uses more then 400MB, but the total USED memory while Kray is rendering is 1.6GB. It seems there is some heavy memory leaking going on, or the used memory is not correctly disposed. After I close Kray, all memory is freed again...

ingo
01-25-2005, 10:52 AM
Is it just me or are the rendertimes a bit to high. Lightwave should render them faster i guess, can anybody compare this ? I just have to wait since i'm on a Mac ;)

trick
01-25-2005, 10:54 AM
Another thing:

After Kray has finished rendering, processor usage of the Lightwave process is 99%, until you close the Kray dialog. This does NOT seem right :eek:

Edit: The moment you open the Kray plugin, LW usage goes to 99%, even BEFORE rendering...

wacom
01-25-2005, 11:24 AM
Kray looks very promising. I've seen people have Fprime renders that took HOURS because they did ALL the wrong things (including "rendering" in the preview window). I think SilverLW is showing that with a little knowledge and some tweaking this is going to be a VERY nice render solution for LW- maybe comprable to Vray or better once we know more and a few things are ironed out.

And look at this customer service! You guys didn't even buy the thing and the Kray people are just jumping to help you! I think some other companies could learn from that ;)

Oh, and I still hold that they Vray renders looks like it's cutting a few corners- namily bounces (it looks like 2 or 1.5) and ray trace recursions. The reflections just aren't that convincing, but hey...

wacom
01-25-2005, 11:27 AM
Is it just me or are the rendertimes a bit to high. Lightwave should render them faster i guess, can anybody compare this ? I just have to wait since i'm on a Mac ;)

Just try and render that scene in LW with only luminosity and tell me how far you get without it looking like a Serat(sp?) painting. We've done tests with LW and FPrime and LW was slow as a dog! If you "cheat" in LW with area lights you can bring the time down, but it's still not as good as the other renderers (Kray, Fprime, Vray).

ingo
01-25-2005, 12:28 PM
Well i have tried it and get rendertimes between 2 and 5 minutes on my 1.8 GHz G5 with Lightwave, and around 7 and 10 minutes with FPrime, depending on how much you like grain. Thats why i asked.

ingo
01-25-2005, 01:19 PM
Okay, here are two quick examples with 3 arealights. All with antialiasing PLD 3-pass classic on my PowerMac G5 1.8 GHz.

Captain Obvious
01-25-2005, 02:13 PM
Will there ever be a Mac version?

silverlw
01-25-2005, 02:35 PM
Ingo don't talk show us your examples :p

oh.. your to fast for me...You did!

Nice images inded but there is very little color bleeding and the shadows are very, how should i say it, there are no fine details because of the interpolated mode.

gtanski
01-25-2005, 02:40 PM
silverlw:

:) I think it still can be faster. Try to increase Dinstance min in FG tab. I'll try to make the scene faster when I have some spare time.

trick:
So octree was OK. If you are using Irradiance caching Kray will alloc memory during rendering. The more irradiance samples the more memory needed. So if the settings forces Kray to sample irradiance very very densly it may cause hughe memory consumption. Check the memory consumption at the begining of rendering and when it allocates more ram.
This may be a bug as well. I can tell for sure why it needed so much RAM. When I was rendering some scenes in gallery that have lot of polygons memory usage was lower (around 150MB). If it is a memory leak I will fix it easily if you send me the scene.
About LWs CPU usage. Kray does not communicate with LW during rendering. GUI for Kray is written in Lscript and Lscripts should be safe for LW everytime.
I have checked the CPU usage. It is 100% in fact even if only the GUI is open. I am really supprised. This is how Lscript plugins works in LW and only Newtek can fix it. This problem is a problem of all Master Class Lscripts. The script just runs reqpost() command and waits for input. Lscripters will know what I am talking about. This is amazing to me why waiting for input used 100% CPU.
Please download latest version of demo. It creates separate task for Kray rendering (it supposed to do it before,but @asyncspawn pragma in LW works randomly) and allows you to quit LightWave.
Another note about rendering speed. Kray runs at low priority (to not slow down work during rendering) so it uses only spare CPU cycles.

ingo:

How many indirect bounces did you have?
I suppose there is only 1 bounce some ambient. This looks good for this scene. If you disable radiosity at all and add some lights that mimics GI you will get even better results even faster, for such simple scene it is easy. But when scene becomes more complex the difference between fake and GI becomes visible.

Compare this rendering in LW with I guess single bounce
http://www.rna.hr/00/SK-chu-HI1.htm

with this:
http://www.kraytracing.com/image.php?dir=gallery&file=sibenik1.jpg

trick
01-25-2005, 03:08 PM
...Check the memory consumption at the begining of rendering and when it allocates more ram...
...When I was rendering some scenes in gallery that have lot of polygons memory usage was lower (around 150MB). If it is a memory leak I will fix it easily if you send me the scene...
...I am really supprised...This is amazing to me why waiting for input used 100% CPU...


I'm testing on a scene that can NOT go public (in the coming months), so I'll see if I can make a comparable one on short notice.
Memory consumption for the Kray process I guess is normal, varying between 150MB and 450MB during the prepass. But total system memory usage is quickly climbing to more then 2GB. I hope this is NOT scene dependant, otherwise there is a big chance my new scene wil not show this behaviour :( Let's wait and see.
About the cpu usage: It's the first time I noticed this. In all LW versions (7.5-8.2) I checked behaviour of all native MC-plugins and some 3rd parties like G2, Napalm, Impact, Keytrack, etc, but none of them show this cpu usage waiting for input...

silverlw
01-25-2005, 03:16 PM
Gtanski please do as the Vray team and add the watermark at the bottom AFTER aliasing and inklude some like "Kraytracer Version x.xx |Res: 512x383 | Rendertime.
Also make it possible to change resolution and save animations.
More people would start to find it "worth" learning and trying Kray and you would have plenty of free advertising of your product by the watermark.

Thanx for all your quick feedback :)

byte_fx
01-25-2005, 04:06 PM
Looks like time for me to give Kray another chance.

Gotta give the folks credit in the support department and the posted sample renders in this area look promising.

byte_fx

ingo
01-25-2005, 04:09 PM
......ingo:

How many indirect bounces did you have?
I suppose there is only 1 bounce some ambient. This looks good for this scene. If you disable radiosity at all and add some lights that mimics GI you will get even better results even faster, for such simple scene it is easy. But when scene becomes more complex the difference between fake and GI becomes visible........

Yes its just one bounce. And you're right that it depends on the scene, some (mostly animations) look really good with raytrace and faked GI and Photoshopping, and some need real GI.

So when did you say can we Mac users test Kray ?? ;)

silverlw
01-25-2005, 04:34 PM
What could cause these black little squares?
First i thought there could be nonplanar geo but i have tripled everything.
I used 1 spotligt 40% and a blue tinted environment
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/bluesky.jpg

3DBob
01-25-2005, 04:42 PM
Started to test this render and it does show great promise. Granted the review cyle is a little disjointed as you have too let it get some way before you know where it is going - same as lightwave thouh - but for me the baking and spherical lenses really make this interesting.

It does however appear to be single threaded - it would be great if this could be a multithreaded app.

Here's hoping

3DBob

gtanski
01-25-2005, 05:02 PM
trick:

Probably GI resolution is to high and Cache Irradiance in on. Try to disable irradiance cache (will render much longer) or change GI resolution. If you cannot send me the scene (I would use it for debug only), send me GI settings for Kray. Just pick Save in Photons or FG tab. I would also like to know how big the scene is in meters (size of bounding box). If you provide this maybe I will be able to check what is wrong (if it is matter of settings).

About CPU usage: Those plugins you mentioned are .p files I suppose. At the beginnig of developing GUI for LW I was wondering - use Lscript (.ls) or C (.p) (having no expierience in any of these)
I considerd that GUI is not time critial and can be a script. This allows easy porting (btw. anyone tried to run Kray.ls on Mac?), it is safe for LW (any Lscript should not cause LW crash) and there are some Lscripters that will be able to modify the script and tune it to their needs.
Unfortulatly Lscript support in LW is not bug free. Sometimes Lscripts crashes LW.
OK, lets go back to CPU usage. I did one test. If anyone there is familiar with Lscript try this:

@warnings
@version 2.2
@script master
@name Lscript Bug

create
{
}

destroy
{
}

flags
{
return(SCENE);
}
process: event, command
{
}
load: what,io
{
}

save: what,io
{
}

options
{
reqbegin("LW bug test");
reqsize(300,100);
return if !reqpost();

reqend();
}

It is a simple master class lscript that does nothing at all. It is a template to do anything. If you copy this code to a file named "Test.ls" for example, and add it to plugins. Then add this plugin as layout or scene master, and run its interface it will show empty dialog box and LW CPU usage will be 99%. As far as I know in any version of LW. There are some more issues with Lscripts (for example if you save the script on one machine LW saves its absolute path and cannot load script settings on other machine which have the same script on different directory, LW will not ask for a replacment file)

ingo:
As soon as I get Mac with LW and development tools. GUI should be portable at the moment. Kray's rendering code is almost platform independent. Only part to port is a preview window. Without preview window it compiles on any platform.

silverlw:
I think if I allow to change resolution, enable animation, and change watermark I will not sell any more copies.

Scene looks like it is a bug in Kray. Send it to me ( [email protected] ) with all the settings. I'll check what is wrong and fix it soon. All will see how fast support Kray have ;).

3Dbob:
Kray does not support Multithreading, but will for sure in the future.

wacom
01-25-2005, 06:35 PM
Okay, here are two quick examples with 3 arealights. All with antialiasing PLD 3-pass classic on my PowerMac G5 1.8 GHz.

This looks like interperlation to me though. Could you really use this for a walkthrough without bake'n it? And you're still using area lights! Cheater! ;)

ddaniels
01-25-2005, 09:10 PM
You guys need to read the manual like any other photon mapping renderer you need to set it up correctly you cant just hit render. Its worth the setup you get much better results than Fprime.

Muad'dib
01-26-2005, 02:05 AM
As KRAY looks very promising I thought I'd give your scenes a go but try as I might gtanski I don't even get close to the times you post ... more like 11 mins per frame on a 2.8Ghz Laptop - 1 Gig RAM. What the heck am I missing ? I know it's something but beats me what it is:) I altered the LWS file as described - installed the plug manually as per the redme.html file and still no joy.

3DBob
01-26-2005, 02:53 AM
This is the coolest thing about KRay - It is a fast GI renderer with a spherical lense - check out the attached image - drop this into Vista3D (www.vista3D.com) publiser and you will have a web publisheable 3D panorama of your scene.

Note - it has been scaled to 2:1 which is the correct aspect for QTVR.

3DBob

3DBob
01-26-2005, 03:00 AM
And the coolest thing about FPrime is the feedback - you know what the lighting is going to look like VERY quickly and then simply leave it in the oven. If it isn't good enough, leave it alone using spare CPU cycles until it is good enough. OK not great for anmation because the render times are too slow (this preview renderer shot took 7 hours 2.8GHz p4) but you can just walk away - come back and it will be the best it can be - not missing the mark and requiring you to tweak parameters again.

24 recursions, 10 bounces, 3 area lights & 3 luminous polys.

3DBob

Elmar Moelzer
01-27-2005, 03:25 PM
Hello!
We have had a look at the L- script- busy- waiting - problem and we unfortunately can confirm that it is there. However Bob was already able to fix it and we will release it in a upcoming update. At this point however we cant say yet when this update will be available. We will let everyone know as soon as we can give a precise date.
CU
Elmar

trick
01-27-2005, 03:41 PM
...However Bob was already able to fix it and we will release it in a upcoming update...

Good to hear you're listening ;)

antwik-2
01-28-2005, 02:43 PM
First of all i want to point a big thanks to gtanski
for lissening to the users and share the setting for the interior scene. Keep this up and the users will increase for sure. (And the update with lower opacity on the very enoying "K" was good, but you might consider to look at vrays "copyright" solution)

Im woundering if there will be support for subdivsion and lightwaves surface materials with gradiants in KRay?
or will i just be able to render polys...

silverlw
01-28-2005, 05:01 PM
Hi everybody!
Grzegorz Tanski was kind enough to look at my testscene and had made some improvements on the settings. The image below rendered like this in 1 Minute and 50 seconds! (amd 2400) less than half the time that i first thought was fantastic.
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/rend00001.png

Here is the new optimized scene (http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/Kray_room.zip)

3DBob
01-28-2005, 06:34 PM
OK, Ok that is impressive - even if you roughly baked the complete textures at 100 luminosity and no lights to a UV map in lightwave - reapplied and then turned on the lights in KRay, re-baked to UV and threw it back to lightwave for final stuff it would still save a lot of time. Might sound involved but it might just be worth a crack.

I think this plug could be very interesting.

mmmm

3DBob

Exception
01-29-2005, 06:17 AM
Dear Grzegorz,

I have been on nuch needed vacation for a week, so please permit me the late response. Im also on a french azerty keyboard:::

Like I said; I dont know anything about kray yet and will continue testing: I will use your suggestions, but I hqve thoroughly read the ,anual before I did the testing: I could not really find a proper explanation of that octree setting in there. Perhaps you have updated the manual§

i will try again when i get home. yuou can reach me too if you want

silverlw
01-29-2005, 03:00 PM
1 lightsource and lots of bounces. rendertime 1 minute and 10 sec. :rolleyes:
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/multibounce.jpg

I's it really only me playing with this marvelous renderer? post your own testrenders.
If i could have this speed together with worleys interactive preview and cooking... :D

Captain Obvious
01-29-2005, 05:24 PM
That took one minute?! That is rather fast!

Ztreem
01-29-2005, 05:38 PM
WOW! :eek: I think I must test this demo. This render seems to be very fast.

wacom
01-29-2005, 08:15 PM
1 lightsource and lots of bounces. rendertime 1 minute and 10 sec. :rolleyes:
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/multibounce.jpg

I's it really only me playing with this marvelous renderer? post your own testrenders.
If i could have this speed together with worleys interactive preview and cooking... :D

The best part is that you could bake it...or just have it do a small calc for each additional frame and it would only take seconds! Keep truck'n siverlw!

Could you post your scene so that we can check out the settings you're using?

silverlw
01-30-2005, 07:19 AM
Ofcourse.
here you go (http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/Multibounce.rar)

Please post an image if you get better or faster results :)

Exception
01-30-2005, 12:28 PM
I guess your scene has lot of polygons. You should change default setting for Max octree depth in Misc tab of Kray rendering options to 13,14 maybe 15. This will cause longer initialization time, but will shorten the rendering a lot.

I changed the settings as you suggested (Octree 14), and photon mapping with cache irradiance.
After 10 minutes and a swap file increase of 2 GB it hasnt started doing anything visible yet.

CB_3D
01-30-2005, 02:25 PM
Baking hires out in lw unfortunatelly takes almost as long as a good native radiosity solution,especially if we are talking about dozens or hundreds of surfaces.

silverlw
01-30-2005, 03:08 PM
Another test with some more geomtry 276.000 polys. Dont mind the odd looking gloria above one of the guys head ;) The important thing here is that with an octree setting tweaked up to high, the renderer will eat LOTS of memory. In this scene i tried 14 at first but i ran out of ram exactly like Exception is talking about. It can be quite a big difference between a value of 10 and for example a value of 12 so always first try the default value of 10 (or lower) and if it goes etremly slow to render then you know the bottleneck is a to low octreevalue,then increase it but be carefull above 10.
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/lotsofpolys.jpg

Wacom were talking about baking:
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/baked.jpg
This is the baked texture of the room and it goes extremly fast to calculate.

pixym
01-30-2005, 03:49 PM
Silverlw,

Do you consider bying Kray?

I ask you this question because you seriously begin to know how to manage this promising and powerfull renderer...

In addition, the Kray software developer help us a lot on the forum.

Best

harlan
01-30-2005, 09:34 PM
Hmmm... would be interesting to see the results of KRay on a 64Bit system as I'd assume the ability to address more RAM would allow for the higher octree level settings.

Speaking of which, anyone hear if there's a mac version in the works?

I'd also like to see this used on a real world scene rather than just these radiosity demo looking scenes - although the one with all the heads is kinda cool. ;)

wacom
01-30-2005, 10:06 PM
Hmmm... would be interesting to see the results of KRay on a 64Bit system as I'd assume the ability to address more RAM would allow for the higher octree level settings.

Speaking of which, anyone hear if there's a mac version in the works?

I'd also like to see this used on a real world scene rather than just these radiosity demo looking scenes - although the one with all the heads is kinda cool. ;)

I think the fine people of Kray said there were working on a Mac one- and that the renderer its self can be ported to any platform with ease. So I guess if enough Mac people ask for it...

wacom
01-30-2005, 10:08 PM
Silverlw,

Do you consider bying Kray?

I ask you this question because you seriously begin to know how to manage this promising and powerfull renderer...

In addition, the Kray software developer help us a lot on the forum.

Best

I hope this is "the one"- so far silverlw has been getting even better times out of it than Vray! It's looking like it's safe to say the arch viz crowd won't have to go to MAX for a rendering solution anymore!

silverlw
01-31-2005, 12:08 AM
Im just a hobbyist playing with radiosity because i think it's so cool! I will personally not buy it but for the arc/viz people it must be godsend, like wacom said, no need for Max/brazil or Vray anymore. Im a lousy modeller but i will try to find some more apealing indoor scenes to try with than my odd boxrooms :p
Is there anyone who got some nice/interesting architecture to share or is there any bundled within content of lw?

Jure
01-31-2005, 01:59 AM
I've been testing demo quite a bit this weekend. It is a very fast GI renderer, that's for sure. You just need to take some time to understand all the settings. The manual is a bit limited about explaning each setting so far.

Unfortunately the issues with SDK still makes it only of limited use. Shaders are obviously unsuported, but even procedural textures or even gradients don't work, not to mention subpatches...

That could be worked around though by baking lighting solution to object and work from there on...

It's great to see the test renders here so keep them coming.
Here's a test I did to see what different setting do... Nothing fancy just quick test. Photon estimate - direct filtered and precomputed irradiance

Exception
01-31-2005, 03:21 AM
Ok, This is with Octree set to 13, which took about 1.6 Gigs of memory, which is in the system so it wouldnt swap.
It took about an hour to calculate, which is not that bad I suppose considdering the claim that extra bounces don't add to the calculation time too much, but its rather slow for a one bounce.
The windows are black!! They are set to 75% transparency, no shaders.... weird...
Otherwise i dont really like the way it looks. I turned down the interior lights from 20% to 10% because KRAY was making them much bigger than LW was on the ceiling (see the first renders).
Also note the behaviour of the windows. Eventhough they show black (non transparent) they do allow light to be entered into the house. This proves the 'Cast shadow' flag thing works. Very good.

Actually there are a few settings in the render panel that are not explained in the manual at all:

'Corners Distance' and 'paths'. What do those do?

And perhaps a silly question, but where do I set the amount of bounces? Its not explained in the manual at all... I suspect it is the setting in the LW GI panel, but im not too sure about it...

What would be great is a memory consumption estimate next to the octree input box. If it is a function of the number of polygons in the scene versus the octree number the memory consumption would be estimateable....

Jure
01-31-2005, 03:30 AM
Bounces are set by "Ray recursion limit" setting in render panel I belive. You should set it to 24. Maybe you have it set too low so your ceiling seems a too dark.

silverlw
01-31-2005, 04:21 AM
How many layers of glas is your windows?
It looks like you dont have enogh recursions (rendersettings) use 24 as Jure suggested and enable everything, transparency,reflections,refractions,shadows

thanx for your images :)

Exception
01-31-2005, 05:30 AM
Thats weird. 24 ray recursions?!
Using 3 is usually enough for LW... The windows are just two poly's facing away from eachother.

So the ray recursion setting in the Lightwave render panel defines the amount of GI bounces as well? Another strange strange thing.... Is that really so?

Jure
01-31-2005, 05:42 AM
Thats weird. 24 ray recursions?!
Using 3 is usually enough for LW... The windows are just two poly's facing away from eachother.

So the ray recursion setting in the Lightwave render panel defines the amount of GI bounces as well? Another strange strange thing.... Is that really so?

Well yes... It's not realy that weird when you think about it since it defines how many times the ray will bounce. It's used mostly with reflections but it also has an influence on LW's native radiosty. Seting ray recursion limit high yields in stronger coloring of bounced light.

Luckily setting ray recursion limit to 24 doesn't slow down rendering nowhere nearly as much as it does in LW.

Exception
01-31-2005, 05:47 AM
Ok I set it to 24, but its still crawling along on another machine, a 3.2Ghz P4...
I set the photons to 5%, 25%, so it also looks a bit blotchy... 13 Octree...
man, i dunno about all those test scenes, but with this real-life scene it isnt really showing its stuff well.

Perhaps Gtanzki can help out a bit in suggesting some proper settings... covering those in Lightwave as well... does the LW GI settings make any difference at all still?

Exception
01-31-2005, 05:49 AM
Also, I really do feel the backdrop gradient and colors should be used in KRay... Its really a pain and waste of memory to make a huge image map and map it on a globe to achieve a simple gradient effect...

Jure
01-31-2005, 05:52 AM
Could you post your Kray settings along with Photon estimate renders (unfiltered and precomputed irradiance (that should render very fast). This may give some more clue of what's going on.
There could be different parameters that are slowing down your render like GI resolution, photon number, low-high filter radius etc.


And no, I don't belive LW's GI setting make any difference at all.

Jure
01-31-2005, 05:56 AM
Also, I really do feel the backdrop gradient and colors should be used in KRay... Its really a pain and waste of memory to make a huge image map and map it on a globe to achieve a simple gradient effect...

You can use image world for that. Image world textures seem to render correctly.

Exception
01-31-2005, 06:23 AM
U, yes but I was talking about backdrop color and gradient. A texture is excessive waste.

Anyhoo, this is what I got from the following settings:

Min photons: 5%, max 25%, Octree 13, Photon mapping Cache irrdiance, Ray recursion in Lightwave set to 24, FG rays set to 400 (i dunno if that has any influence). Took about 38 minutes, and theres no anti aliassing.

An Octree setting of 14 boosts memory usage up to above 2.4 GB, and the renderer just quits.

Jure
01-31-2005, 07:25 AM
U, yes but I was talking about backdrop color and gradient. A texture is excessive waste.

Anyhoo, this is what I got from the following settings:

Min photons: 5%, max 25%, Octree 13, Photon mapping Cache irrdiance, Ray recursion in Lightwave set to 24, FG rays set to 400 (i dunno if that has any influence). Took about 38 minutes, and theres no anti aliassing.

An Octree setting of 14 boosts memory usage up to above 2.4 GB, and the renderer just quits.

How about your other settings, specificaly:
in photons tab:
Global photons, N, Dynamic, Global precache
and under FG tab:
Sample density and distance min and distance max?

It would be also interesting to see photon distribution in your scene by rendering out Photon estiamte - direct unfiltered and precomputed irradiance.

Exception
01-31-2005, 07:38 AM
Ok, heres the list of the above image, with slightly changed values cos ive been experimenting. havnt come below 34 minutes as of yet.

Ray recursions: 24
Octree: 13
Photon Mapping, Cache irradiance on
Prerender percentage: 10%
Scanline

Use Global Autophotons on
Global Photons 20.000, N 200
Low 0%, High 15%, Dynamic 2.0
Global Precache 4

corners on, Distance 50%, paths 1
(What does this mean?!)

FG rays: 400, density 0.1
Distance Min: 20%, Max: 500%
B/D 100%, oversample 100%
Max weight 10.000

Exception
01-31-2005, 07:54 AM
Here is the direct unfiltered....

Exception
01-31-2005, 08:05 AM
Precomputed irradiance

Exception
01-31-2005, 08:38 AM
Ok, changed some values, like Min. Distance of FG rays to 40%, FG rays to 300, time is now 26 minutes. Lost transparency of the windows again.

It still doesnt look like its doing 24 light bounces... it looks darker than the Lightwave render with only one bounce....
murhw....

I like this program, but its taking its learning curve rather seriously : )

wacom
01-31-2005, 09:06 AM
Ok, changed some values, like Min. Distance of FG rays to 40%, FG rays to 300, time is now 26 minutes. Lost transparency of the windows again.

It still doesnt look like its doing 24 light bounces... it looks darker than the Lightwave render with only one bounce....
murhw....

I like this program, but its taking its learning curve rather seriously : )

Not to sound like the ***** that I am...but maybe you're tweaking too much stuff at a time? You should post a scene you're having problems with that we can download and play with to see what works for it. You might want to try and NOT use area lights and use lumi-polys instead- Kray seems to do just fine with them.

Exception
01-31-2005, 09:26 AM
Ok in the meantime, did anotother Lightwave test, and this one took 9m 22s, for 2 bounces. All I did was turn off the Trace transparency and Trace refraction, turn down the max recursion limit to 6, and turn up the lights by 8% again, towards their original value.
This is WITH 3-PLD AA.

Looks much brighter and happier tho...

Exception
01-31-2005, 09:27 AM
and NOT use area lights and use lumi-polys instead- Kray seems to do just fine with them.

Im not using area lights at all...

I cannot share the scene or objects as it is developed in house for a client.
I am changing individual parameters, but am not uploading everyhting to the forum. I am aware of scientific testing : )

Jure
01-31-2005, 10:49 AM
sory double post... read below....

Jure
01-31-2005, 10:50 AM
Ok, heres the list of the above image, with slightly changed values cos ive been experimenting. havnt come below 34 minutes as of yet.

Ray recursions: 24
Octree: 13
Photon Mapping, Cache irradiance on
Prerender percentage: 10%
Scanline

Use Global Autophotons on
Global Photons 20.000, N 200
Low 0%, High 15%, Dynamic 2.0
Global Precache 4

corners on, Distance 50%, paths 1
(What does this mean?!)

FG rays: 400, density 0.1
Distance Min: 20%, Max: 500%
B/D 100%, oversample 100%
Max weight 10.000

Well I hope gtanski will jump in on this one but here's what I think you should tweak:
On general tab:
Raise prerender to something like 40-50%
Turn on undersample factor to 4
On Photons tab:
lower Globabl photons to 10.000 and N to 100
Set low to something like 30% and high to somethin like 70%, Leave dynamic to 2
Lower Global precache to 2
Don't know what the corners setting is for either.
On the FG tab:
Set density to something like 0.2
Set distance min to 40% and max to 120%

You can also add folowing line to Misc tab under "Header commands":
finishwait; showphstats; octstats;

This will show some info while rendering...
Maybe this gives you some better start to work from.
Also check out the test scene silverlw was working on.

silverlw
01-31-2005, 12:45 PM
Im no expert in Kray, im still experimenting and trying to fully understand all the possibilities it has. Worley's Fprime is so easy to use because it uses brute force calculations. Kray does not. It's VERY important to get the correct values to fully unlock it's potentials. Do some experiments with "GI Resolution". That parameter can have great impact on the result and also over speed.

Captain Obvious
01-31-2005, 02:23 PM
1 lightsource and lots of bounces. rendertime 1 minute and 10 sec. :rolleyes:
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/multibounce.jpg

I's it really only me playing with this marvelous renderer? post your own testrenders.
If i could have this speed together with worleys interactive preview and cooking... :D

This image took 4 minutes to render on a 1.6GHz G5 (it would probably have taken less if I hadn't browsed and such while it rendered). MC radiosity, 1x3, 4 bounces (more than 4 and it wouldn't render at all, for some reason). Anyone got any tips on how to optimize LW's radiosity and make it look less bad? ;)

Exception
02-01-2005, 03:02 AM
Captain obvious:
This is a discussion of the KRAY renderer, not of the Lightwave native renderer. However in order to help you get up to speed with the lightwave renderer here are some tips and tricks:

-Dont you ever put Lightwave in monte carlo mode again. You horrible animal! : )
-Set GI to interpolated
-for fast calculations while sacrificing physical accuracy and some detail set the tolerance parameter in the order of 0.8 to 0.99. Set motion blur in camera properties to 'on' (non-dithered is usually enough), and if you dont want motion blurring to occur set the motion blur length to 0%. Set anti aliassing to something that allows motion blurring (low enhanced is usually fine, the higher the AA, the better the GI solution will be)
-Experiment with the resolution setting. you can go quite high sometimes without a render time hit, and sometimes even without noticable difference in quality. Experiment with the last parameter. I usually do something like 150mm for an interior shot.

This setup will allow you to do multi-bounce radiosity in limited time. Setting bounces higher than 3 usually doesnt even show, keep it at one or two in general circumstances.

Captain Obvious
02-01-2005, 04:14 AM
Captain obvious:
This is a discussion of the KRAY renderer, not of the Lightwave native renderer.

Yes, I know. I figured it would be appropriate to compare Kray to LW's native renderer. ;)


However in order to help you get up to speed with the lightwave renderer here are some tips and tricks: (...)

Thanks, I'll try that!

Para
02-01-2005, 04:26 AM
I went ahead of you and tried optimizing the LW render a bit, here's my result with my A64 3400+. Notice that I even used PLD 7 and set the gamma to 2.2 in post.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/~stupid/3D/lwrad-pld7_gamma2_2.jpg

Exception
02-01-2005, 06:50 AM
Did everything Jure suggested.
Rendertime: 22 minutes. This includes adaptive anti aliasing though.
Still nowhere near as fast as Lightwave, and it is starting to look bad too.

Also, I still have trouble believing this is a 24 bounce render. Honestly. There is not enough light filling the space to believe 24 bounces. It looks more like one.

silverlw
02-01-2005, 08:18 AM
I have made experiments with HDRI lightning. here is one of the results. No lights at all. There is still some noise but can be improved by the lightobjects settings under Misc. To get an hdri to emit photons you have to map it on a sphere and turn on luminosity. With Imageworld photonmapping doesnt work,only Finalgathering.
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/rendHDRI.jpg
Btw,no gamma or exposure corrections were made. rendertime about 15 minutes.

pixym
02-01-2005, 08:22 AM
SILVERLW,

May we have the rendering time for this resolution please?

silverlw
02-01-2005, 08:27 AM
I think it was around 15 minutes,i say think because i made coffe during the time;)
I still hope Gregorz will add the rendertime to the Kraydemo images.

wacom
02-01-2005, 09:15 AM
Even if the first frame of the Kray Render tool 30min each addtional frame would be only a few minutes to seconds. We've never had a problem with getting good stills out of LW- but a walkthrough that is done in a reasonable time frame- and done with radiosity? Yeah right! You better send that baby to the farm. I think this is where Kray pays for its self- even if you have to tweak things first and sit through one long render. Remeber that cache radosity button that is a joke in LW? Well it works in Kray!

If someone has the time- I'd like to see Kray animate a small walkthrough with times posted for the first frame and then the addtional frames. And then the user giving up when they try LW. Maybe you'd have to buy Kray though...grrr...SilverLW? OK, how about a "bake off" instead?

PS- I've used monte carlo with the new PLD level 2/3 system at just 2X6 with motion blur and had good renders and times. I don't think it's safe to say NEVER use it...

PPS- Is it just me or is the Kray AA really good at removing a lot of artifacts from the final?

silverlw
02-01-2005, 09:33 AM
i have tried Stochastic sampling and adaptive (like lw's non enhanced modes) There is no noiseremoval at all in Kray that im aware of,it just renders clean like that. Think of the possiblilites if we could have the same kind of noiseremoval from diffuse surfaces like there is in Lw. Wow even faster rendertimes but then it might only be usefull for quick stills,not animatable.

gtanski
02-01-2005, 10:33 AM
I think for start it is good to set up a simple scene and follow the tutorials in manual to get familiar with the settings.

Very important thing is to set up Irradiance caching properly. It is good to enable Show samples in FG tab to see where irradiance samples located (and becouse we are interested in locations of sample to reduce FG rays for speed). Too many samples can slow down rendering while to little number of samples will cause low quality.

Explanation about Corners are missing in manual. I will add it to next version with some example images.
This help avoid some artifacts on images like "dirt" in corners or soaking of photons. This happens when geometry in thinner then radius of photon map. In such cases Kray can switch rendering method locally to path tracing. When Corners are enabled and a ray is shorter then Distance Kray switches to path tracing and uses Paths number of paths.

In case of any questions please reach me via email
[email protected]

silverlw
02-01-2005, 10:55 AM
4 minutes and 12 seconds. Lit by Hdri environment and 5 indoor lights 24 bounces as usual and reflection refraction for windows and tableball. I was after a moody evening look.
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/glaswindows.jpg
Hopefully someone (Gtansky maybe) could soften the shadows from my pointligts. The image might also look better if it got a bit brighter but i leave it to someone else.
Here is Scene (http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/Kitchen.rar)

Couldnt resist changing the hdri to another and now we have a daytime scene. Same settings and rendertime 2minutes 50 seconds. Note that caustics is changed when hdri is changed,it casts photons.
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/daytimehdri.jpg

Update: I got a very god tip from Gtansky! By enabling "shared GI for all frames" It saves radsolution to disk so if you for example is tweaking FG it doesnt have to recalculate radsolution all the time. Also note something i have missed, Limited Region works with Kray since v.1.504

Captain Obvious
02-01-2005, 12:44 PM
So it does caustics with HDRI lighting? That's something I miss in LW's native renderer. Awesome! ;)

Captain Obvious
02-02-2005, 09:00 AM
I went ahead of you and tried optimizing the LW render a bit, here's my result with my A64 3400+. Notice that I even used PLD 7 and set the gamma to 2.2 in post.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/~stupid/3D/lwrad-pld7_gamma2_2.jpg

This image was with the same exact radiosity settings, enhanced low adaptive sampling AA and dithered motion blur. Yet the color bleeding seems much lower than in your image. How intense was the light surface in your scene? :confused:

ingo
02-02-2005, 12:13 PM
This image was with the same exact radiosity settings, enhanced low adaptive sampling AA and dithered motion blur. Yet the color bleeding seems much lower than in your image. How intense was the light surface in your scene? :confused:

I guess thats just his additional Gamma setting of 2.2 that makes the difference.

Para
02-02-2005, 12:35 PM
I guess thats just his additional Gamma setting of 2.2 that makes the difference.

That's right. Even Kray rendes quite dark without gamma so I set it to 2.2 which is a recommended value in Kray's manual. Apples to apples... :)

Exception
02-03-2005, 07:04 PM
Im just getting crazy colored all blown out images now.... cant seem to shake them either... weird.

Captain Obvious
02-08-2005, 04:13 PM
Call me a newbie if you must, but how did you adjust the gamma? In Photoshop, or Lightwave? :confused: I can't seem to find a gamma setting in either. There's curves, I suppose... but, uhm, yeah. I can't seem to get radiosity in LW to work as it should. Para, can you post your entire camera and lighting settings?

harlan
02-08-2005, 10:27 PM
Check the Image Filter plugin called Full Precision Gamma located in the Image Processing panel.

Enjoy. ;)




Call me a newbie if you must, but how did you adjust the gamma? In Photoshop, or Lightwave? :confused: I can't seem to find a gamma setting in either. There's curves, I suppose... but, uhm, yeah. I can't seem to get radiosity in LW to work as it should. Para, can you post your entire camera and lighting settings?

Para
02-08-2005, 10:40 PM
Call me a newbie if you must, but how did you adjust the gamma? In Photoshop, or Lightwave? :confused: I can't seem to find a gamma setting in either. There's curves, I suppose... but, uhm, yeah. I can't seem to get radiosity in LW to work as it should. Para, can you post your entire camera and lighting settings?

I did it in Paint Shop Pro but if you really want to you can use Full Precision Gamma filter as harlan said.

harlan
02-08-2005, 10:54 PM
Yeah definitely. I didn't mean to imply that the image filter in LW was the only way to do it. I usually gamma correct outside of LW myself.

Captain Obvious
02-09-2005, 07:44 AM
I generally do such things with curves in Photoshop, but it's not really an exact way of adjusting gamma.

Now, anyway, how do you make interpolated radiosity make less horrible? Motion blur? If so, with what settings?

Captain Obvious
02-10-2005, 07:19 AM
This image took 37 seconds on a 1600MHz G5.

Interpolated radio, 2x6 rays, 5 bounces, 0.95 tolerance, 80 mm spacing

Classic low AA, classic filter, adaptive sampling, normal motion blur (50% length).

pixym
02-10-2005, 07:23 AM
Has somebody made some tests with a "real" architectural internal scene with a big amount of poly and not "Mendel box" like scene?

Captain Obvious
02-17-2005, 11:07 AM
A few more questions about radiosity in LW...

I've been experimenting a little with indirect caustics (ie diffuse light bouncing off a surface and getting refracted through a glass or similar object), but I'm having some problems. With Monte Carlo, or Interpolated with very low tolerance setting, you get the caustic effect... but to take advantage of Interpolated, you need a higher tolerance setting, and with that, any caustic effects become washed out completely. So, anybody has a nice solution to it? Rendering it with low-bounce and rough MC and baking it?

Exception
02-18-2005, 12:43 AM
Has somebody made some tests with a "real" architectural internal scene with a big amount of poly and not "Mendel box" like scene?

Um, doesnt this thread have enough of them?

silverlw
04-02-2005, 02:25 PM
I thought about awakening this thread by posting some images,hope you radiosity freaks like them :p
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/Blurred%20reflections%20Less%20than%2010%20minutes %20in%20Kray.jpg
Less than 10 minutes,blurred floor,arealights (visible), luminous objects, 24bounces

http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/Less%20than%205%20minutes%20in%20Kray.jpg
Less than 5 minutes,Without blurred floor,arealights (visible), luminous objects, 24bounces,1280x1024 resolution

pixym
04-03-2005, 03:25 AM
interresting reply

Pavlov
04-03-2005, 05:06 PM
I's it really only me playing with this marvelous renderer? post your own testrenders.


Not only you ;)
playing with it, VERY promising. Still not ready for my pipeline since it cannot use procedurals and gradients, but incredibly good, considering it's a first release.
I shoud thank the programmers, they're really kind people... i'll surely bouy this toy as soon as it entirely reads materials.
I hope more people will get involved in this, since it's our only alternative, and a good one.

Paolo Zambrini

silverlw
04-05-2005, 07:19 PM
Another testrender 12 minutes 24 bounces, sun and sky
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/Garage.jpg

Another variant less colorbleeding and more optimized, 6 minutes 1024x768
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/garage1.jpg

Ade
04-05-2005, 07:59 PM
So does anyone own KRAY? Is it worth it for interior shots? is it easy to get better results than lw?

Intuition
04-05-2005, 08:12 PM
Hey SilverLW,

Saw you over at the Maxwell Forums.

Have to ask.

Do you like Kray or Maxwell Render better so far?

I bought into Maxwell. Haven't tried Kray. Looks good tho. Jeez, and now f-prime 1.5.

All these toys, so little time. :)

silverlw
04-06-2005, 02:37 AM
Dof test, GI ,hdri. 26 minutes with stochastic aliasing (nice but slow)
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/DOF1.jpg

Intuition: Maxwell is for those really highquality renderings when you dont care about time,only quality. Kray is the only true alternative for productive work like Highresprint,animations and architectural stuff so i believe very much in it. What if you could use MLT algorithm within Kray? ;-) (MLT=metropolis light transport aka Maxwell). Kray also integrates within lightwave meaning you work as usual with your materials and don't need to to rely on shaders for every material.

Intuition
04-06-2005, 10:25 AM
Oh, ok cool.

Thanks for the info, I guess I better get Kray as well.

The results look great.

mav3rick
04-06-2005, 11:27 AM
does this kray support subd or is it planned to be supported anytime soon?
without subd i have no much interest since i am not viz guy.........
btw renders are superbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb.

silverlw
04-06-2005, 12:42 PM
Subdivision + more is on it's way :cool:

antwik-2
04-06-2005, 01:41 PM
Thits starts to look good, could you show us some gradiants stuff? Like and insidance angle on a reflection, just to show that kray support it.
The shadows in the roof looks a little "blocky", looks like it need more sampling, but i guess you commin around that soon.

depth of field looks very nice :)

silverlw
04-06-2005, 04:56 PM
Test with old newtek scene. 330.000 polygons. rendertime 2 minutes,8bounces,hdri and 1 arealight.
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/skulls300.jpg

If i want i can use the same radiosity solution and render it in extreme hires in about 5-10 minutes. I recalculated the radiosity even better and rerendered it to 3200x2400 in 20 minutes. The rendertimes i post is always including radiosity calculations. I wanted to improve the shadows detail between the teeth. 3200x2400 (http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/highresSkull.jpg)

mav3rick
04-07-2005, 03:30 AM
thx silver:) might be interesting than..... i got fprime 1.5 but :) who knows maybe fp for preview and kray for render since it got baking and stuff like that

Jure
04-07-2005, 03:40 PM
Thanks for the test renders silverlw. Seems like you've nailed it down pretty well. I've done a bit of testing myself awhile back. I found the settings to be quite tedious and hard to understand. Nevertheless it's looking like a realy good 3rd party renderer. Unfortunately it's suffering the same issues as all other outside renderers - hopefully that should improve once LW's SDK is fully opened. The supports of at least the gradients, procedurals, shaders and subpatches is a must for any renderer to be considered seriously in a production pipeline.

P.S. silverlw: I noticed you are using a demo version without resolution restrictions. Is that freely available for download?

silverlw
04-07-2005, 05:50 PM
Im a betatester so that's why my version is unrestricted. There is already support for gradients,UV and all other texture modes except procedurals. Now it renders all polygon geometry and there is no need to convert everything to triangles. Much more functions is coded as we speak and even if i'd love to tell you what features it is, Grzegorz wants me to be quiet until they actually exist's. You asked about the less restricted demo and you will soon be able to download it. It will basically be the same as V1.56 that you can download at:

http://www.kraytracing.com

so start practising and i will help you as much as i can. The new demo will have a more appealing watermark with rendertime, free resolutions and free animation lenght.
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/100bounces.jpg
I played with weird room's again and bounces, 1 light and 100 bounces (hundred) rendertime with calculations 8.5 minute.

Captain Obvious
04-08-2005, 12:41 AM
100 bounces? 100!? Wow, that's... a lot.

Is it a "real" light or just polygons with luminosity?

silverlw
04-08-2005, 09:02 AM
This is for Jure
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/ProceduralCow.jpg
I texture as usual in Fprime and when im happy i bake it. As long as you dont plan to animate the procedurals this is rather painless. Atlasmap plus bake shader takes me max a minute because lw is fast to bake very highresolution textures as long as you dont use radiosity. Radiosity and baking takes hr's, even days...
Captain Obvious: You can use whatever you want in Kray because both normal light's and luminosity objects emitts photons but i used a pointlight in the center of the sphere,turned upp luminosity to 100% and rendered.

silverlw
04-09-2005, 07:07 AM
Subdivision is now implemented in Kray so there will be no need to freeze objects before render. The new version is now under test to ensure there are no serious bugs.

Captain Obvious
04-09-2005, 09:39 AM
Do you have a scene with plenty of shiny/transparent objects and lots of lights that you could try? More of an architectural scene, or something such? It'd be interesting to see how Kray handles something more complex. ;)

Pavlov
04-09-2005, 09:50 AM
Subdivision is now implemented in Kray so there will be no need to freeze objects before render. The new version is now under test to ensure there are no serious bugs.

Hi,
i'd like to add this tools to my pipeline as soon as possible, but procedurals are a must-have. Baking can partially solve this, but in high-end viz almost every surface has bitmaps, gradients and procedurals mixed together in complex ways.
You can bake a simple noise like cow's one, but not complex, layered textures in multiply or alpha mixing with bitmaps. At least, you *can* do it, but you've to rearrange/verify materials, not possible in tight timelines.
So just waiting for the complete surface editor to be straightly readable from Kray. I can survive without shaders, but not with procedurals... anyway, pretty awesome work, congratulations.

Paolo Zambrini

Jure
04-09-2005, 02:48 PM
Thank you for your effort silverlw.
It's nice to see that the program is developing in the right direction.
I agree with Paolo. I too am prepared to invest into this application as soon as it is usefull enough to be included in our pipeline. Procedural textures as such are important part of it and like Paolo said it is important they are implemented. Hopefully this can be implemented somehow, though I don't know if that is possible with the current SDK.

silverlw
04-09-2005, 07:48 PM
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/SwedishKitchen.jpg
Antwik was kind enough to borrow me this kitchen to play with.
The room/kitchen is only lit through the windows by an hdri environment.
to be continued...

duke
04-10-2005, 12:20 AM
I have to say, Kray is looking to be the most promising renderer yet for LW! Speedwise, it's alot faster than Fprime simply because it doesn't use Monte Carlo, and the way it works is much more like the professional render plugins for Max - which is a good thing :) Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think most people would be happy if Kray were to have it's own procedurals that work in Lightwave like the IFW2 ones, except they work in both Lightwave and also translate over to Kray's renderer.

Alot of the hesistance people have about moving to another renderer is how much they'll have to learn and re-do. People don't like doing something with Lightwave just because a renderer plugin needs it, like freezing, baking procedurals to a UV map, and so on, it's enough to make it too much of a hassle to use.

Ultimately what you want is something where you can load up a scene with various elements, render it out in Kray and have it look similar to how it does in LW. From there you tweak Kray specific settings like GI and so forth. I really do think Kray is heading in this direction which is great to see, and I really look forward to seeing the updates :)

PS. Coming from an archi background, another thing I'm sure many of us would like to see is the addition of a function/plugin similar to TB_edge/edgefx, that adds a fake bevel in the shader, applied to edges based on smoothing angle.

Pavlov
04-10-2005, 04:00 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think most people would be happy if Kray were to have it's own procedurals that work in Lightwave like the IFW2 ones, except they work in both Lightwave and also translate over to Kray's renderer.

S. Coming from an archi background, another thing I'm sure many of us would like to see is the addition of a function/plugin similar to TB_edge/edgefx, that adds a fake bevel in the shader, applied to edges based on smoothing angle.

mm .. i'd like to have LW procedurals into Kray, not Kray specific procedurals.
I have tons of very complex presets which make my work faster, having to tweak geometry, materials, lights to render in Kray is too complex by now.
Imho, right direction is working together with NT to open SDK and get the more straightforward they can.
With current speed and quality, Kray would be a top-seller if it was better integrated.
Again, it refuses to render scenes with incorrect light models, and that's not good. It should render whatever i want, not only "phisically correct" scenes.
Another thing (a real must): add TIF textures and TIF savers, lot of Viz users have most of their textures in this format, even in 32bit flavor.
Again, interface is confusing; it would be nice to have "suggestion agents" to keep parameters correct. Ie, if i raise a value i *should* raise another one accordingly to get good results, but i have to know this myself. A smart interface could "suggest" you what you need to change when you modofy some parameters, i.e. with red colors or even better with a wizard. Otherwise, a page-based help ala Lightscape would be very good. I learned Lightscape this way ;)

Silverlw : i've some good home interiors i'm working on (not the same i sent to Kray people), i experimented a lot with Fpriem 1.5 and interpolated LW. Just like to see what happens with Kray... if you have some spare time, i could pack one of these and send it to you.

Paolo Zambrini

duke
04-10-2005, 05:08 AM
mm .. i'd like to have LW procedurals into Kray, not Kray specific procedurals.
I have tons of very complex presets which make my work faster, having to tweak geometry, materials, lights to render in Kray is too complex by now.
Imho, right direction is working together with NT to open SDK and get the more straightforward they can.
With current speed and quality, Kray would be a top-seller if it was better integrated.
Again, it refuses to render scenes with incorrect light models, and that's not good. It should render whatever i want, not only "phisically correct" scenes.
Another thing (a real must): add TIF textures and TIF savers, lot of Viz users have most of their textures in this format, even in 32bit flavor.
Again, interface is confusing; it would be nice to have "suggestion agents" to keep parameters correct. Ie, if i raise a value i *should* raise another one accordingly to get good results, but i have to know this myself. A smart interface could "suggest" you what you need to change when you modofy some parameters, i.e. with red colors or even better with a wizard. Otherwise, a page-based help ala Lightscape would be very good. I learned Lightscape this way ;)

Silverlw : i've some good home interiors i'm working on (not the same i sent to Kray people), i experimented a lot with Fpriem 1.5 and interpolated LW. Just like to see what happens with Kray... if you have some spare time, i could pack one of these and send it to you.

Paolo Zambrini

Maybe some simple presets, aswell as lightwave or it's own non-pop-up messages when you go and alter a value, for example "altering this value may do x, you should increase y setting and decrease z.". And then high and low clip values, like if you increase something to a huge amount and it might bust the render or simply isn't needed, it will tell you so.

silverlw
04-10-2005, 04:29 PM
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/Areaobjects.jpg
I just wanted to show a cool feature:
This is a luminous teapot acting as an arealight and it's only treated as normal arealight-raytracing in Kray.

silverlw
04-10-2005, 05:06 PM
Found a bug related to blurred reflections. the floor aint reflecting/blurring as it should.
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/blurbug.jpg

Captain Obvious
04-10-2005, 05:17 PM
How long did those renders take?

Marco Solorio
04-11-2005, 01:00 AM
So after going through this thread, I've gathered some thoughts to compare Kray to FP and Maxwell...

FPrime: Extremely fast (fastest out there) interactive renderer with great radiosity rendering, but can be noisy at times.

Kray: Slower than FP but faster than Maxwell. Can give similar results to FP but with less (or no) noise.

Maxwell: Best photo-realistic quality (that I've seen) if you don't mind the render-time hit.

If you ask me, I've been greatly impressed with Maxwell. I'm ready to open the wallet and buy it this week (most likely tomorrow at work) and possibly two seats since they do have the deal going on right now. Seems to me that if you want the best quality, then Maxwell is the way to go; alternatively, if you can sacrifice some quality, then that means you need the extra speed... sounds like FP would be better suited in that scenario. Just seems like Kray fits in the middle somewhere. Marsha, Marsha, Marsha!!! :p

I'm not saying Kray isn't as good as the others, but it's not ringing my bell like FP and Maxwell does... especially Maxwell... those renders are just amazing! Then again, maybe I'm just missing something with Kray??? :confused:

Ade
04-11-2005, 01:08 AM
In the end Vray is all the above in one package.

Jure
04-11-2005, 01:24 AM
That's not really true. In fact if you look at all this 3 programs they are very different in their essence. They are made to be different.

Fprime is great because of its previewing/real time feedback abilities. It is not quite as fast with GI as you may think. Actually it's quite slow and not usable for radiosity animations in normal production environment.

Maxwell is whole another story again. It's a renderer that wants to mimics real life light physics as much as possible. And it's not taking any shortcuts while doing that. It produces stunning results but with a time cost. It's still in alpha stage also, so features that will be in final release are still missing. It is also unsuitable for animations so far (maybe one day if it supports baking radiosity solution).

Kray on the other hand is very much like Vray. It takes every shortcut possible to achieve fast radiostiy solutions. It does that with photon mapping and final gathering techniques. It sacrifices a bit of realism of light and shadow this way but it is the only one of this 3 that can give you render times suitable for animations.

Bear in mind that I'm judging this 3 from a perspective of architectural visualization artist. You can see that all 3 programs can find a place in your toolkit if you can afford it that is. Fprime is a must IMHO because of it's fast feedback which allows you to tweak your surfaces and materials 100x times quicker than you normally would. Of the other two you should pick whichever fits your needs best. Maybe you can get both, I know I probably will.

Hope this helps somewhat,
cheers

Para
04-11-2005, 01:41 AM
In the end Vray is all the above in one package.

Except physically accurate. Sure it renders nice pictures but in some cases that's not enough.

Jure
04-11-2005, 01:54 AM
Except physically accurate. Sure it renders nice pictures but in some cases that's not enough.

And it is nowhere close to FPrime either. Remember FPrime's greatest strenght is interactive preview ability.

silverlw
04-11-2005, 02:04 AM
I agree with you Jure. They are all very different tools to accomplish 3 different task's.
Captain Obvious: The rendertime for that one "1024x768" was about an hour. I im no expert in Kray but i do my experiments to become one. In that image i used 100 bounces+blurred reflections (buggy ones;) ) , Stochastic AA, Hdri lightning and one arealigh as sun. I have found that setting up an HDRI environment in kray is more troublesome than im used to via imageworld.p because you need to wrap the hdri on a sphere and there is more parameters to tweak than what im used to.
Pavlov: Yes id love to try your arhitectural stuff, mail that at [email protected] .
Duke and pavlov: Yes presets and some more intelligent gui would be preferable, i will tell Gregorz about it. I would personally have something similar to the rendersettings found in Vray like low/medium/high/animation.

I also want to tell you that Grzegorz is fully aware of what Maxwell can do and not do and he is looking in to it, i cant say no more for the moment . :D

mav3rick
04-11-2005, 02:44 AM
jure about fprime and production enviroment..... well i dunno about you but i finished all commercial stuff last year with fprime. they were all render out with fprime and 95% of them was monte carlo radiosity.
Fprime was/is joy to work with and it is fast.

Jure
04-11-2005, 02:49 AM
jure about fprime and production enviroment..... well i dunno about you but i finished all commercial stuff last year with fprime. they were all render out with fprime and 95% of them was monte carlo radiosity.
Fprime was/is joy to work with and it is fast.

You're talking about still renders or character animations, right? I had architectural (walkthrough) animations in my mind.

Ade
04-11-2005, 03:30 AM
I have never seen any renderer match Vrays looks. If its not 100% accurate, i have yet to see anyone complain?

duke
04-11-2005, 04:00 AM
I have never seen any renderer match Vrays looks. If its not 100% accurate, i have yet to see anyone complain?

Exactly, you're not havinge physicists look at your renderings. No one is going to complain that the light ray being bounced off the pin cushion should be 1 degree to the left. It's about receiving a final look and result quickly.

I can see why people like Maxwell, as it produces fantastic results, but I've yet to see it get rave reviews from production companies or anyone mention how FAST it is and how it's reliable at meeting deadlines! :P Vray takes the cake not necessarily for features, but for speed :)

Lude
04-11-2005, 04:13 AM
Has there been anymore word on a vray for lightwave?

doimus
04-11-2005, 07:17 AM
Lude,
Not really... you can check official Vray forums (http://www.chaoticdimension.com/forums/) but there's been little development (at least that users know of) on Vray.exe project.
They're still working on Max version, and missed their VRay 1.5 announced deadline for about a year or so... :rolleyes:
So, god knows when we may see something going on with standalone version... I believe there are like 2 or 3 persons working on Vray so no wonder it takes them that long.

And even when it does come out, it's going to be plugin-based, just like Maxwell or KRay, so don't expect miracles ...

I still believe, among 3rd party renderers, FPrime is our best bet so far.
KRay maybe for quick walkthrough animations and texture baking, but if I had to choose one it would be FPrime.

wacom
04-11-2005, 09:50 AM
I have never seen any renderer match Vrays looks. If its not 100% accurate, i have yet to see anyone complain?

Well, I like Vray renders for certain things...but I haven't seen extreamly convincing skin etc. in it. I guess that's were MR comes in. From what I've heard one of the real strengths with Vray is the texture/surface library. It's nice for archviz people to have "real" samples of surfaces that will render well in Vray as it takes a lot of the guess work out of it.

I think Kray is headed in the right direction- Vray technology doesn't seem to be some magical thing anymore- photon mapping and caching of results is now in at least four rendering engines.

Besides, if Fprime can ever do a final "noise reduction pass" and bake textures we'll be very happy campers. But I'm not holding my breath.

Lude
04-12-2005, 01:40 AM
Mr Kray, REALLY need's to put some new REAL PROJECT images on his site. House, Kitchens a tree - doesn’t matter but it needs to be a good completed scene.

I think this is the only way he can get more of us to take the time to play with Kray.

From what I see it looks like it COULD be really good, but no one's pulled out a “wow that's a really nice image”.

If Kray's a sort of Vray for Lightwave I’m interested, but not enough to spend my time messing with a load of setting, not till I see some Vray type images on his site (witch is still crap by the way - if your going to sell something from a website it needs to have some sheen).

Lude.

Marco Solorio
04-12-2005, 02:18 AM
From what I see it looks like it COULD be really good, but no one's pulled out a “wow that's a really nice image”.

I agree. Nothing's popped at me yet... not like Maxwell does, nor the wow-factor of FPrime's result with how fast it works. I noticed some of the images have aliasing in the specular highlights. Anyone else notice this? Like the frog images? And the frog animation sparkles... and not in a good way. Seems to need a little work.

And yes, they could use a website uplift... and speed increase... very slow! The sample videos are downloading at 9-24k/s! EEEEeeeesh!!! Dial-up days revisited!

Now don't get me wrong, for fly-through animations, this might be a key plugin since Maxwell takes too long for anything more than one frame. But if that's the case, then maybe sticking with FPrime is the answer.

Still need convincing I guess. :rolleyes:

mav3rick
04-12-2005, 12:10 PM
jure i talk about both animation and stills... now while i talk to you in backg i cook another commercial 12 secounds on fprime monte carlo 2 bounces level 6 ... all looks nice.

wacom
04-12-2005, 01:32 PM
Mr Kray, REALLY need's to put some new REAL PROJECT images on his site. House, Kitchens a tree - doesn’t matter but it needs to be a good completed scene.

I think this is the only way he can get more of us to take the time to play with Kray.

From what I see it looks like it COULD be really good, but no one's pulled out a “wow that's a really nice image”.

If Kray's a sort of Vray for Lightwave I’m interested, but not enough to spend my time messing with a load of setting, not till I see some Vray type images on his site (witch is still crap by the way - if your going to sell something from a website it needs to have some sheen).

Lude.


I agree! Now you don't need to spend oodles of money to make a site that looks OK. I've been very surprised at just how bad some people's sites are in the 3D world in general (not that I can talk). Even Worley could use a little help in this area...

silverlw
04-12-2005, 04:20 PM
I agree the site looks awfull but i defenitly prefer Mr Kray to implement further improvements than making html and nice graphics ;) I believe we will see much more animations and nice images showing the potentials of kray as soon as the new less restricted and improved demo is released. Mr kray is working alone + study at the university (last year) and he needs all the help he can get from Lightwave users.

Marco Solorio
04-13-2005, 02:04 AM
Mr kray is working alone + study at the university (last year) and he needs all the help he can get from Lightwave users.

That definitely puts it in a different perspective for sure. Apologies to Kray for the rant on the site performance. In due time, I'm sure it'll all be golden.

Gollum
04-13-2005, 06:18 AM
Some very interesting stuff to be seen in this thread. Just downloaded the demo and hope to give it a try this weekend, looks promising!

silverlw
04-14-2005, 09:15 AM
Kray is now ported to be a plugin instead of separate EXE. Betatest is in progress.

silverlw
04-18-2005, 02:28 PM
rendertests rendertest... Everybody know sponza i guess. 100 bounces 1280x1024 15-20 minutes per frame on amd2400
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/Spot00000.jpg
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/Spot00001.jpg
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/Spot00002.jpg
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/Spot00003.jpg
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/Spot00004.jpg
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/Spot00005.jpg

silverlw
04-18-2005, 02:29 PM
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/Spot00006.jpg
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/Spot00007.jpg
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/Spot00008.jpg
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/Spot00009.jpg
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/Spot00010.jpg
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/Spot00011.jpg

silverlw
04-18-2005, 03:05 PM
Why do we need bounces? 1 bounce is god for me! Well it depends on the scene you want to create ofcourse and a chair on floor will not benefit from more than one bounce. But if we talk about indoor scenes or complex geometry like the sponza atrium they are needed. This is a crazy room to demonstrate lots of bounces. For the light to spread and distribute from one room to the other where the cows is you need many. The zigzag corridor shut's out most of the light if it doesnt bounce around plenty.
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/Mooh.jpg
With Kray it doesnt matter if you use 1 bounce or 1000, it's about the same rendertime anyway.

wacom
04-18-2005, 04:26 PM
I hope your examples can get put up on the Kray website- very impressive as always. You really know how to push and pull on a render engine!

So how fast does Kray NOW do that old Vray room we were playing around with? I bet with your new knowlege of Kray it will render even faster than before.

Also- is it very realistic with Kray to bake a render like the ones you just posted?

Thanks SliverLW- I'm personally way more excited about Kray than Maxwell as, for you at least, Kray is proving to be very useful for "real" world rendertimes. Maxwell looks nice...but when things get to be 20hrs....well...

Jure
04-19-2005, 02:39 AM
In addition to those great renders posted by silverlw I'll be posting some of my own beta testing images:
So let's start with Maxwell vs. Kray :)

Maxwell 640x480 after ~16hrs :
http://www.vizualizacije.com/beta_testing/1704/maxwell_room16h.jpg

Kray 1280x960 21 minutes :
http://www.vizualizacije.com/beta_testing/1704/21min0000.jpg

And Kray 1280x960 "brute force" (without irradiance caching) 6h29min :
http://www.vizualizacije.com/beta_testing/1704/6h29min0000.jpg

Stay tuned for more... :)

3DBob
04-19-2005, 06:56 AM
Hi Jure,

Like to see an FPrime 1.5 go at this.

3DBob

antwik-2
04-19-2005, 01:58 PM
Very Nice renders Silver! The hri lighting in sponza looks great!
And you got light everywhere in it, The colorbleeding also looks very nice (the blue from the hdri seems to get into alot of hidden places)

3DBob
If your able to lit up the scene like that in fprime...Then i will eat my hat lol :)
100 Bounces!! in 15-20 without any noise...Thats veeeery nice.

silverlw
04-19-2005, 02:22 PM
hehe The sky is no hdri. It was just a jpg image mapped on a plane and with 10% luminosity

Jure
04-19-2005, 03:46 PM
Hi Jure,

Like to see an FPrime 1.5 go at this.

3DBob

Here's Fprime 1.5 render after 20 minutes...
I'll leave it overnight and see if it clears up.

http://www.vizualizacije.com/beta_testing/fprime_20min.jpg

Jure
04-19-2005, 04:07 PM
And here's a test of glass...
No "air" polygons were used. Kray renders refraction correctly.

Click on image for full size.
http://www.vizualizacije.com/beta_testing/1904/glass_bl_small.jpg (http://www.vizualizacije.com/beta_testing/1904/2min49s.jpg)

wacom
04-19-2005, 04:27 PM
This is another case in point where Fprime doesn't seem to know wha to do with high light levels. Kray seems to say "...sure I'll take em and bounce em..." where as Fprime just seems to sit on them. If the scene was lit diffrently you'd get much better results, but I doubt it would overtake something like Kray in many instances.

Fprime can be used like native LW in some instances, but I find once you start using it for radiosity if follows it's own rules, likes and dislikes. Kind of takes the instant gradification part out of it at times...

Keep them Kray renders come'n!

Jure
04-20-2005, 12:39 AM
And here's Fprime 1.5 after ~9hrs of rendering. Same computer, same resolution...

Click on image to see full res.

http://www.vizualizacije.com/beta_testing/1904/fprime_7h_small.jpg (http://www.vizualizacije.com/beta_testing/1904/fprime_7h.jpg)

Captain Obvious
04-20-2005, 08:50 AM
How many bounces in that scene? Did you vary the number between the renderers?

Jure
04-20-2005, 09:08 AM
Ah yes sorry...
All the Kray scenes have 24 bounces. Fprime scenes are all 10 bounces. Maxwell was 8 if I remember correctly...

silverlw
04-20-2005, 02:15 PM
Another test with strong indirect sunlight
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/rend4_fg00000.jpg
Ups forgot to mention credit go to Jure for this nicely built room :)

Para
04-20-2005, 02:46 PM
Is the wall texture blotchy or does those blotches come from photon mapping? Usually I'd complain something like that but now it actually seems to fit.

pixym
04-20-2005, 03:42 PM
Another test with strong indirect sunlight
...Image of the room...
Ups forgot to mention credit go to Jure for this nicely built room :)

Rendering Time PLEASE

pixym
04-20-2005, 03:46 PM
In addition to those great renders posted by silverlw I'll be posting some of my own beta testing images:
So let's start with Maxwell vs. Kray :)

Maxwell 640x480 after ~16hrs :
http://www.vizualizacije.com/beta_testing/1704/maxwell_room16h.jpg

Kray 1280x960 21 minutes :
http://www.vizualizacije.com/beta_testing/1704/21min0000.jpg

And Kray 1280x960 "brute force" (without irradiance caching) 6h29min :
http://www.vizualizacije.com/beta_testing/1704/6h29min0000.jpg

Stay tuned for more... :)

THANK YOU VERY VERY MUCH FOR THESE TESTS

silverlw
04-20-2005, 07:16 PM
Another test 58 minutes amd 2400+
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/rend5_fg00000.jpg

silverlw
04-21-2005, 02:32 AM
rendered a small anim for fun. 2 minutes per frame because GI is mostly precalculated Jure animtest.avi (http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/Jure_animtest.avi)

another with some postfx
post fx (http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/Jure_animtest_post.avi)

Lude
04-21-2005, 02:47 AM
looking good! but whats the black grain above the plate in both the still and the anim.

2 min a frame's a dam good render time.

At what point dose kray need to recalculate. Dose it just do a wee bit at a time as the camera moves round to areas it couldn’t see before or what.

So did the first frame take 1 hour and then the rest about 2min?

If so what if the quality settings where higher to get rid of more blotches, would it take say 2 hours for the first and again 2 min a frame there after or would the following render times increase to?

Thanks for keeping us informed about this engine.
Lude.

silverlw
04-21-2005, 03:21 AM
Lude: The noise above plate is just noise that i have missed when i have made my settings. Right now im limited to 640x480 previewwindow, (gregorz will fix that soon) when i do my settings so it's a bit difficult to estimate finalresult for 1280x1024. If i increase finalgather rays it will be gone. Render time of 58 minutes includes radiosity calculations render and AA in 1280x1024 with the quality youve seen. If i would have done it in a lower resolution from the beginning it would have been alot faster since i could lower fg rays in between objects,behind painting on wall etc. I reused that GI solution from 1280x1024 calculations to render the anim in the smaller resolution. Kray recalculates radiosity and add more information to gi solutionfile that have previously not been seen and reloads data from earlier frames that it already have calculated. If i would have increased quality from beginning to get rid of more artifacts the following frames rendertime will also increase a bit but no big differences. For shortest rendertimes/highest possible quality baking is still the best solution but not via lw's baker, via Kray's baker wich is very much faster.

silverlw
04-21-2005, 03:54 AM
could resist making a Lightprobe hdri to share. 5 minutes render.
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/spherical00000.jpg
Hdri Lightprobe for Lw (http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/spherical00000.rar)

silverlw
04-21-2005, 04:01 AM
jure have made some more testimages of glas and Kray that i like. The glasses/liquids is ONLY singlesided polygons so no need for different refraction/air polygons anymore.
3 minutes
http://www.vizualizacije.com/beta_testing/2004/HDRI_3m3s.jpg
8:30min
http://www.vizualizacije.com/beta_testing/2004/glass_liquid00000.png
i dunno ;)
http://www.vizualizacije.com/beta_testing/2004/rend00001.png

a3dmind
04-21-2005, 04:09 AM
NEWTEK HIRE GRZEGORZ TANSKI!!!


Ok I know this is too much to ask but I had to try :rolleyes:

a3dmind

duke
04-21-2005, 05:44 AM
Seeing these practical tests is brilliant - any news on an updated demo?

pixym
04-21-2005, 06:28 AM
NEWTEK HIRE GRZEGORZ TANSKI!!!


Ok I know this is too much to ask but I had to try :rolleyes:

a3dmind

Yes Newtek should do it...

monovich
04-21-2005, 10:44 AM
I agree with everyone else here; thanks for the samples and tests! They look great.

does kray render out an HDRI probe native, or did you assemble it from multiple camera angles/shots?

-s

silverlw
04-21-2005, 12:38 PM
Kray saves/loads Bmp,Png,Targa,hdri native and can render directly to "Perspective" (normal mode), "Spherical" (called longitude/lattitude in some software), "Fisheye" (called lightprobes in lw) and "Texture bake" (UV/atlasmapping) so far....

Btw here is a silly testanim to see if radiosity seem possible when Kray is forced to recalculate GI for every frame because of moving stuff, The girl. Rendertime for these were about 3-4 minutes per frame, very little noise. My ftp is broken for the moment so i post the divX later and a few frames now. Note that the floor is blurred and quality of blur is userselectable exactly like in the commersial plugin Hypersmooth. Kray also renders reflections in a non additive (correct) way like hypersmooth. The reflections of red balls on white floor is red and not white as when using additive mode.

pixym
04-21-2005, 12:43 PM
Thank you very much Silverlw :)
Could you please add some motion blur in Kray?

silverlw
04-21-2005, 01:27 PM
For the moment only DoF but it's coming ;) The quality of it is userselectable as everything else in Kray
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/DOF1.jpg

pixym
04-21-2005, 01:34 PM
Thanks for the information ;)

mav3rick
04-21-2005, 01:39 PM
it would be cool to see that brilliant guy hired or at least to give him all **** SDK acces to enhance this renderer.... for now what i heard only INO is very talented guy that do stuff for newtek.... we need more like INO guys in newtek dev. team. That would booost up development a lottttt.
i am so happy that we have kray and fprime only and just for lw now... and i hope users will know to show kray support as much they showed to worley. i am the one that will apply for kray as soon i get subd and all stuff i need to do commercial things (characters).
maybe kray will also deliver subpixel displacement?!? is that possyble silverlw?

wacom
04-21-2005, 09:56 PM
Well they just hired a brilliant EI guy- so let's see what he can come up with! If NewTek can open up the SDK just a bit more... Kray and Fprime are so promising!

And where would we be without Jure and SilverLW? These guys know how to test a render engine- even break it! Uber Testers

monovich
04-22-2005, 09:57 AM
this may be the wrong place to ask this, but can someone give me the dumbed down explanation of photon mapping? Kray does that?

-s

silverlw
04-22-2005, 12:12 PM
There is no "dumb" questions, only dumb answers ;)
Kray is the only renderer so far that does Photonmapping/irradiancemapping/finalgathering for lw. It will not stop there. Lightmapping and MLT is also planned but no timeline for this since the author is also doing fulltime studies.

For info about Photonmapping and irradiance i'l point you at Vray's site that has lot's of info in this matter.

Vray's site / Photonmapping (http://www.vrayrender.com/stuff/ManualPreview/sample3/tutorials_pmap.htm)

I also have to point you to Vray's site for info about Lightmapping.
What is lightmapping (http://www.vrayrender.com/stuff/lightmap/)

And for MLT (Metropolis Light Transport AKA Maxwell render)
Metropolis Light Transport (http://graphics.stanford.edu/papers/metro/)

Para
04-22-2005, 03:45 PM
And for MLT (Metropolis Light Transport AKA Maxwell render)
Metropolis Light Transport (http://graphics.stanford.edu/papers/metro/)

Last time I heard was that Maxwell doesn't use MLT but a variation of some completely another algorithm that resembles MLT.

...I don't really care what's the truth, MLT rocks! 8)

silverlw
04-22-2005, 07:08 PM
9 minutes amd 2400+ singlesided glas surface

silverlw
04-22-2005, 09:25 PM
This is how the Gui for Kray looks like now. It's not standalone anymore, it's integrated into lw as a plugin.

duke
04-22-2005, 10:02 PM
Holy smokes batman!

Para
04-23-2005, 12:31 AM
Since Kray is now an LW plugin shouldn't it be able to use all the filetypes LW can or am I missing something in here?

silverlw
04-23-2005, 02:37 AM
Possibilities to use Lw's own loaders and savers, yes. But it doesn't come per automatic so for now it's only the usual formats. The renderer was earlier untill now a standalone.exe so we mainly concentrate to hunt down serious bug's than adding more functions. One new and usefull thing that have been added is that noone ever need to concentrate of building glassobjects with double geometry to get correct refraction, Kray solves this automaticly without the before needed Air polygons. Even if you add many glassobjects on each other, fill glassobjects with other glassobjects,fill glassobjects with liquids, it will still calculate it per automatic!. This is another simple test with glas showing just that. Rendertime for this image 1hour 33minutes. 16bounces/refractions lit by arealight and hdri

byte_fx
04-23-2005, 05:25 AM
This project is advancing quite nicely.

Congrats and thanks to the developers.

Hope Newtek picks up on supporting the efforts and - maybe - integrating into a future release.

byte_fx

Gollum
04-23-2005, 06:02 AM
I don't think integration is or should be of primary concern. Other packages have a long history of 3rd party rendering engines that you can/have to license seperately, and that's not a bad thing IMO.

LW ships with a very robust and powerfull rendering engine. Integrating 3rd party renderers like Kray or FPrime would inevitably raise the cost of the base product. I'd be happy to just have them available as optional tools.

The most important issue is, that Newtek works closely with these talented 3rd party developers, so that their render engines can take full advantage of all of LW's features, including volumetrics, shaders and more. That way they could become real alternatives to LW's native renderer, and more choice would be good for LW's future IMO...

Captain Obvious
04-23-2005, 06:34 AM
Last time I heard was that Maxwell doesn't use MLT but a variation of some completely another algorithm that resembles MLT.

...I don't really care what's the truth, MLT rocks! 8)
Well it sure looks like MLT! ;)



I've said it before and I'll say it again: Kray is one of the most promising renderers that exist. It probably needs more polish and optimizations and features etc, but dang, it seems fast.

byte_fx
04-23-2005, 11:34 AM
Gollum - please note the "maybe" in my post.

But I do hope Newtek does/continues to work with the developer.

As Captain Obvious and others have said - Kray is one of the most promising alternate renderers that exist.

While I will continue using LW's built-in render engine for the foreseeable future there are simpky some instances where Kray performs better.

It's at the point to be seriously considered as a purchase item.


Does the currently available 1.056 demo include latest updates/changes ?


byte_fx - still impressed with the Kray progress ....

mav3rick
04-23-2005, 03:28 PM
silver i got q. since fprime cant export buffers in somethin usefull like rla/rpf is
kray able to do that? i need some buffers like zdepth, material etc when workin in compositing apps..........
so for now i hack with mixing lw buffers and quick shade

silverlw
04-24-2005, 04:52 PM
Hi maverick.
Nope today it can't since it havent been on the "wishlist" yet ;) Write gregorz a letter and tell him what you need and why. I will also tell him but it's better if you do it yourself who knows exactly what to ask for.

Played with oversample and blurred reflections. Unfortunatly blurred reflections are slow but it's in their nature since you have to sample a surface 100 or thousands of times. This took me almost 30 minutes with blurred reflections min100 / max1000 and 100 bounces

pixym
04-24-2005, 05:07 PM
We must keep in mind that Kray is not multi-thread for the moment.
So It is a fast GI renderer... that will be even faster with multithreading support.

This my first test with Kray demo:

mav3rick
04-25-2005, 03:19 AM
silver ok..... when i get some extra time(due crazy deadlines and lot off stuff for clients) i will submit mail. generally it would be cool to get all channels supported by lw out of kray render (transparency,reflection , zbuffer-THIS IS MUST , motion buffer.)

another question: how is KRAY motioon BLUR algorithm? worley have done neat BLUR algorithm that i would like to se in kray.

and at the end about blured refl. i have recently done some rafraction blurring when i was doin some bottle renders... and thanks to fprime i manage to do 30 passes in less than 2 minutes.. that cleared that ugly ants quiet lott but i think 40 passes is minimum at light quality 0.2 .
i wish i can show off my render but it is under NDA. As soon it will not be NDA i will post. I'v done some NEAT water tinting effect with mix of lightwave PFX/After effects i eaven suprised myself!
for me FPRIME is almost complete solution for now... still lookin for HV implement.

pixym
04-25-2005, 07:17 AM
... another question: how is KRAY motioon BLUR algorithm? worley have done neat BLUR algorithm that i would like to se in kray.
...
SilverLW previous reply in page 14:
"For the moment only DoF but it's coming The quality of it is userselectable as everything else in Kray "
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/DOF1.jpg

pixym
04-25-2005, 07:32 AM
Yes we have to hope for a network version of FPrime...
The computer is a dual 3ghz Intel xeon with 2GB rendering blade node

This is another test (with FPrime):

pixym
04-25-2005, 07:37 AM
Another Test... (with FPrime)

silverlw
04-25-2005, 08:10 AM
Cool pixym!
Yes you and everybody could start with "old" demo to learn controlls,do tutorials and learn gui since they look basically the same in settings panel.
I have only found one big bug in latest beta and that's about prcedurals and gradients together that could crash Kray. So so far i consider this demo i play with as a very probably candidate for demo. Ive said it before and say it again. Im no expert in Kray and i learn things about it every day. I still play with this closed room with sunlight and this is my results for now:

without reflections on floor,trasnlucensy on curtains, relfections on some objects: 1280x960, 38 minutes on amd 2400

silverlw
04-25-2005, 08:11 AM
This is with reflections on floor,trasnlucensy on curtains, relfections on some objects: 1280x960, 2hrs 26minutes on amd 2400

mav3rick
04-25-2005, 09:03 AM
woa now that looks KILLER.. i mean i am not arhi guy but i love this:) i dont care if u re user or developer but i love torture betatesters:) easyer to talk on features with them :)

u rock silver keep on betatesting

silverlw
04-25-2005, 01:33 PM
I was reading some tutorial Vray lightmaps (http://www.vrayrender.com/stuff/flipside/tutorial/flipside.htm) on Vray's homepage and found this room. I decided to read on and try to do similar stuff in Kray. Here is one 24 minute test.

silverlw
04-25-2005, 02:00 PM
another one 9 minutes, translucency takes long time and it was way off anyway.

nthused
04-25-2005, 02:51 PM
Seems to be missing Reflections also. Great looking though.

Pavlov
04-25-2005, 05:31 PM
another one 9 minutes, translucency takes long time and it was way off anyway.

Hi Silverlw, i had very little time to experiment lately, so some questions:
- Why blurred reflections are so grainy ? Is it a limitation of Kray (it looks like it is obtained with microbump) or is there some control to get a smooth soft reflection ?
- Does new beta allow for procedurals and gradients ? In other words, does it read everything about LW surfaces but shaders ?
- Does Kray need heavy sunlight to lit interiors (like LW) ? Can you test HDR exposure to get non-burned direct lighting and good interior lighting ?
- Is Kray Baking efficient (read - about as fast as rendering), or does it fall into long times ? Until it gets fully compatible with LW surfacing/lighting i'm mostly interested in this.
- Does it reads Tif textures ? 90% of my textures are tif...
- Does it have still problems with "ordinary" LW lighting, so i must set lights in a particular way to get correct Kray renderings ? I.e, can i use a targeted distant light as Sun and backdrop color as skylighting ?
- When does new demo will be out ?

Btw, impressive stuff again. Thank you,
Paolo Zambrini

coremi
04-25-2005, 10:21 PM
looks very very nice, but i think if the window is SO bright from light, the room has to be a LOT more brighter then now, there is no way to have so much light comming into the room and still get some shadow corners.

Kray looks good, but as any renders by now, has to be integrated, otherwise is for limited things. Anyhow great we have it, hopefully Lw 9 will bring enough open SDK to have everything work together.

silverlw
04-26-2005, 02:05 AM
Hi Silverlw, i had very little time to experiment lately, so some questions:
- Why blurred reflections are so grainy ? Is it a limitation of Kray (it looks like it is obtained with microbump) or is there some control to get a smooth soft reflection ?
- Does new beta allow for procedurals and gradients ? In other words, does it read everything about LW surfaces but shaders ?
- Does Kray need heavy sunlight to lit interiors (like LW) ? Can you test HDR exposure to get non-burned direct lighting and good interior lighting ?
- Is Kray Baking efficient (read - about as fast as rendering), or does it fall into long times ? Until it gets fully compatible with LW surfacing/lighting i'm mostly interested in this.
- Does it reads Tif textures ? 90% of my textures are tif...
- Does it have still problems with "ordinary" LW lighting, so i must set lights in a particular way to get correct Kray renderings ? I.e, can i use a targeted distant light as Sun and backdrop color as skylighting ?
- When does new demo will be out ?

Btw, impressive stuff again. Thank you,
Paolo Zambrini

Lot's of god questions and i guess most your answers is already in this thread but il try summon them for you.

New plugin-Kray supports gradients but not yet procedurals or shaders.
Since it is now a plugin it will be possible to support all lw's imageformats but for now there is no TIF support.
Kray can use 1 bounce radiosity or 1000 with very limited speed impact
Kray renders in floatingpoint like lw/fprime but have also built in gamma correction and exposure at rendertime + separate gamma and exposure for the input,textures used.
Baking is as fast as when it renders normal images.
Kray is already fully compatible with all lightwave textureparameters and in some cases are superior, Reflections for example is nonadditive wich is correct but can be forced to additive behaviour like in lw.


Kray renders ALL light types but a light without falloff (distant light) can't cast photons and photons is a god thing;) Kray will still render it and be used in the GI calculations via finalgather rays. The same goes for backgrounds/imageworld.p, they can't cast photons but finalgather rays. The difference between photons and FG rays is that photons are shot once and calculates very quickly. FG rays are calculated during rendering and can be very cpu intensive if high numbers are used. Since Kray is in heavy development by ONE MAN, Gregorz Gtansky, this could be changed in future so that for example Imageworld.p might be able to cast photons also. Lights with falloff cast photons and so do luminosity objects. To use a HDRI/image to lit the scene,wrap it on a plane or sphere. Kray does not need heavy sunlight to lit a scene and you can expose the image the way you want.

Blurred reflections is "slow" compared to everything else in Kray but not slow compared to similar products like native lightwave or hypersmooth. You asked about grain, and Kray samples reflections much in a similar way as the outstanding software "hypersmooth". Parameters for (almost) every quality aspect in Kray is userselectable

I personally love this renderer and beleive strongly in it. Thats why i volontered as betatester. I mainly do renders to try out different effects and try to find as many bugs as possible. Sometimes im yeager and in a hurry to show an effect i have discovered so my testimages might be a bit crude sometimes. I will try to post more highquality rendered images in the future.

This "new" demo will be out as soon as the most bug's have been discovered and treated. As i said before Grzegorz is the only programmer, me and Jure test features and find bugs. We work as fast as we possible can to provide a stable,usefull demo of this promising photonrenderer.

I forgot to mention that this new demo also supports Subdivision surfaces and singlesided glas objects with correct refraction.

Ztreem
04-26-2005, 03:55 AM
I think this renderer is becoming more interesting for each day that goes by.
BTW Nice work Silverlw!

Pavlov
04-26-2005, 04:13 AM
Lot's of god questions and i guess most your answers is already in this thread but il try summon them for you.

Thank you very much; do you thing procedural texture issue will be addressed soon, or are there heavy obstacles due to SDK ? By now this and TIF support are imho the heaviest limitations.

Paolo

silverlw
04-27-2005, 11:16 AM
Some examples of lights. Scene from Vray lightmapping tutorials (http://www.vrayrender.com/stuff/flipside/tutorial/flipside.htm)

These images is mainly for Pavlov to show off different lightning conditions.
A jpg image was mapped on window ,luminosity 100% No other lights, 100 bounces.
15 minutes render.

silverlw
04-27-2005, 11:17 AM
Same scene same settings and weak sunlight

silverlw
04-27-2005, 11:31 AM
same scene same settings and VERY strong sunlight

silverlw
04-27-2005, 12:29 PM
Only sun a little weaker.

silverlw
04-27-2005, 12:57 PM
Only weak sun.

silverlw
04-27-2005, 01:29 PM
Weak sun + Hdri

silverlw
04-27-2005, 01:54 PM
And another hdri with more sky and clouds

silverlw
04-27-2005, 02:04 PM
If anyone wants too look at the scene or play with it it's Here! (http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/KrayTest.rar)

allen_j
05-04-2005, 09:43 AM
Hi Silver,

Could you please post your scenes. I am helping GT with Kray for another application, but I'm using scripts with the command line app, which is 'interesting'.

Its actually not as bad as it sounds, because once I have a good script, I just use it as a template, and change the lines which set the lighting levels, load the model, set the material properties and name the output file. Thankfully a GUI is underway.

I have attached a render of an old project I used to test Kray. The model was incomplete, but I think the effect is quite nice.

The plugin generates a script file, and these settings are contained within the scenes. So I can 'suck the settings out' of your scenes with a plain text editor.

The particular scene I would like, is the one with the rectangular room and stairs, that you posted lots of B/W renders of.

Regards,

Jim

allen_j
05-06-2005, 08:33 AM
Actually the settings are in the LWS file, and its not really very easy to determine exactly which numbers in the file relate to which render parameters, so Grzegorz may have to have a re-think about reusing the LWS output settings.

Would it be asking too much to ask for screen shots of your render setting dialogs? I'm sure it would help others who are having difficulty with their configurations too.

Regards,

Jim