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lunarcamel
01-20-2005, 03:06 PM
I know it's only been available for one day but there seems to be a lot of issues with this release - is it worth upgrading or should I wait for the next point release?

I don't have the time or patience to mess up what's working :)

brap
01-20-2005, 08:35 PM
According to testing done by Lukasz, the incredible new plug-in Surpasses is not working with 8.2, unless you replace lcore8.dll from LW8.01. Of course, what other problems might come about as a result of replacing that I don't know.

Newtek, please work ASAP with the developers to make sure that 8.2 will function with some of LW's greatest assets-- it's 3rd party products.

Looks like I'm going to sit this one out for a while... :(

ColinCohen
01-20-2005, 09:05 PM
I would not recommend swapping out this .dll file.

Panikos
01-20-2005, 09:19 PM
Yeah, risky and dangerous situation, especially this plugin contains CORE code with some major differences in LWS format.
Its preferable to stay with LW8.01 than swapping this dll in particular.

Advicing Newtek to conform to a plugin is again not a smart idea. Its easier and more feasible for a plugin developer to conform his code to Newtek's than the other way around.

:eek:

pazur
01-21-2005, 02:30 AM
of course I cannot recommend swapping this dll as a solution but it definitely looks like new LScript is broken. Especially icons feature so the fix on my side will not be that easy as whole UI is based on icons heavily :(

Robi
01-21-2005, 04:53 AM
The ACS4 CharacterPicker and the NinjaRig_Panel are not working anymore too :mad:

theo
01-21-2005, 05:36 AM
I hate to say this guys but Newtek should not be engineering software that strictly conforms with the code of third party developers, even being as important as they are.

First and foremost comes the development of the application itself then it is up to the plugin developers to conform their code to the new release. It would make for a very haphazard software engineering approach to make sure your upgrades conform to a variety of different plugin apps.

radams
01-21-2005, 06:00 AM
THeo I agree with you BUT...because so many rely on additional Plugins in their pipeline that breaking the UI and not allowing the 3rd party developers some time to get fixes hurts all..NT, 3rd parties and most of all the user base...

I hope that this and a couple of other things that seem to have gotten broken with this update get put into place ASAP...

Chuck, Andrew and all, I hope that you'll take a look at this and give some help to the 3rd parties out there.

Cheers,

colkai
01-21-2005, 06:05 AM
First and foremost comes the development of the application itself then it is up to the plugin developers to conform their code to the new release.
At the risk of becoming even more unpopular, than usual, I agree totally.

Speaking as a developer myself, for a company whose software depends upon a base system, we are in a similar situation to plugin developers.
Whilst we can, and do, influence the development of the base system for our needs, there are also situations where the new direction means a recode for us.

That's the software industry for you, whether you like it or not, regardless of how one thinks it should work, this is how it *does* work.
..And yes- there are times when that recode is not a cost we can pass onto the client, painful, but true.

Lest we forget, a recode is exactly what LW is itself undergoing, from code folks have been complaining about for years.

If anyone out there thinks a totally stable, bug-free system can be dropped right into the market, I have to assume they have never developed a system, 'cause trust me, ain't no such beast. Yeah, they may advertise it as 'rock-solid' but I'm guessing so would you if it was your product, bugs are nasty things which turn up once you are totally convinced everything works. Especially when you have the persistance and perversness of users to factor in!

Anyway, "likely to be buggy and may be prone to unexpected crashes", whilst truthful, ain't exactly good marketing, I'd wager "de management" would have words with anyone doing that. :p

If all those keen on bug hunting would like to amass the info and make sure Newtek get it to act on for the next patch - THAT would be a worthwhile endevour, we know they are here and we know they are listening.

One last thought, it's said every time a release is made, but folks seem to forget it each time, never, NEVER, EVER, put down a new version of software as your "main" version, part through an existing project, you only have yourself to blame in doing so.
There is no harm at all in running both versions side by side, especially with disk space being so cheap.
Heck, I have 8.2, 8.01, 7.5 AND 5.6 all sat on my drive - they take up less space than my browser cache! ;)

private
01-21-2005, 06:18 AM
We have a bunch of seats at work, and we update one seat and test, and test and test and test. The fact that some stuff is broken, the spreadsheet and bones tools are funky again, along with breaking plugins (looking at surpasses), we are waiting. Unfortunately, this shouldn't be the case. Little annoying things like the panels in modeler being stuck a size is kind of offset by the fact they hold their position. The texturing tools and improvements are worth jumping for, but in Layout, things don't seem as trustworthy (other than the renderer).

I have mixed emotions. Seems like things are not consistent, but are moving in that direction. Feels like IK Booster still isn't done. Feels like when you just moved house and you're slowly unpacking the boxes...you often do the easiest or the best stuff, but a lot of stuff lingers. That's the feeling I've been getting lately with Lightwave.

The new openess is great and the bug fix release in 8.0.1 was also thoughtful and needed.

If you want to take advantage of the texturing and rendering, you could be tempted. To answer your question, if things are fine now, I would wait.

theo
01-21-2005, 06:21 AM
THeo I agree with you BUT...because so many rely on additional Plugins in their pipeline that breaking the UI and not allowing the 3rd party developers some time to get fixes hurts all..NT, 3rd parties and most of all the user base...

I hope that this and a couple of other things that seem to have gotten broken with this update get put into place ASAP...

Chuck, Andrew and all, I hope that you'll take a look at this and give some help to the 3rd parties out there.

Cheers,

Oh I don't doubt that this may affect your pipeline and in many cases with other software as well situations like this have definitely had an impact on what I do and this IS unfortunate but the reality of the situation is the "base" system as colkai refers to it as is really an incredibly important piece of the puzzle that MUST be allowed to evolve freely as developers respond to users needs.

They have enough issues alone with engineering an app of LW's scope without dealing with plugin issues.

I don't mean to be disrespectful here but people really need to be more flexible with Newtek. We all know that this is a company that is in transition and the important thing is that they are DEFINITELY a company on the move and they are responsive to user needs. These unrealistic expectations that are put on Newtek are just not reasonable by any stretch of the imagination for ANY software company.

The way to REALLY help would be to report the bugs and issues WITHOUT creating a sensation. I mean- some of the nitpicky things I am reading about are just stupid. In time all of these issues can be worked out without the "tizzy" that some folks seem to relish.

brap
01-21-2005, 06:45 AM
Perhaps a good solution would be some sort of 3rd party registry, which would keep developers informed when there is going to be changes made that might affect their efforts. This way, they could update their code prior to a release, which would be good for everyone involved.

robinson
01-21-2005, 07:14 AM
The ACS4 CharacterPicker and the NinjaRig_Panel are not working anymore too :mad:

The Character Picker is working over here !

Kurtis
01-21-2005, 07:16 AM
The LightWave Engineering Team makes every effort to assist producers of 3rd-party products. We fully understand their importance to this product and its community. Look at the addition of Peter Jespersen to the LightWave engineering team as evidence of this.

At this point, there are so many 3rd-party offerings out there that it would be simply impossible for our development team to keep up with them all. Even if they could, their over-riding concern has to be the best way to make LightWave work as a program. Since 3rd-party developers produce a product based on the current state of LightWave at the time of their creation, unfortunately this is going to mean that any change to the application may change the way that product is going to be able to interact with LightWave. The best that we can do as a company is to assist these developers when they ask for it, and provide them ever more flexibility in interacting with LightWave, as evidenced by many of the SDK changes that were made with version 8.2. It is a fact of life that we have to leave it up to the various 3rd-party developers to update their own products to match ours.

We have a wornderful array of 3rd-party developers in the LightWave community. For some of them it is a full-time job, for others it isn't. Some charge for their offerings, some don't. For some, creating a 3rd-party offering was a one-time mental exercise, and they have moved on to other endeavors. Whatever their situation, there can be no doubt that their contributions to the community and the product have helped to make LightWave what it is today. However, for some of these same reasons, from time to time, your favorite plug-in or lscript may cease to work as expected with the newest versions of the application. I've experienced this myself on a number of occasions. It's never fun, but it is something that is going to happen with the development of any software application.

That being said, 3rd-Party developers have always been welcome to contact NewTek directly for help in keeping up to date with changes being made in the program. This is not a service that is only offered to Worley and Dynamic Realities. Any 3rd-party developer is welcome to contact us. I will even go so far as to say right now that if you are a 3rd-party developer and would like to talk to someone here for help in keeping your product up to date with ours, feel free to contact me directly. If I can't help you myself, I will do my best to find you someone who can.

I would like to say one final thing on this subject. For those that don't know my history with the company, I didn't start life with NewTek and LightWave in the 3D Marketing Department. I spent several years using the product to make a living and teaching it at two different community colleges. When I came to NewTek, I spent several months answering calls and emails in Customer Service, several more months answering calls and emails in Technical Support, and several more months working on the website, before I came to be in the position I hold now.

I'm not saying all this looking for praise, just to give you an idea that I do understand these concerns. We all understand how much of an issue losing a valued plug-in can be in a production environment. For that very reason, we added text to our ReadMe's to notify users that this possibility exists. We didn't want to just assume that this would be understood by our users and that it didn't need saying. We would strongly encourage you to contact the developer of the 3rd-party product you are using to check for compatability with the newest version of LightWave if there is any possibility that losing its use would adversely affect your production requirements.

The same warning can also apply to ugrading a system's OS. Please, feel free to contact NewTek Technical Support before undertaking any process as major as an OS upgrade, even if you are not currently in a production cycle. They will be more than happy to tell you whether or not the current version of LightWave has been tested and approved with the newest version of your Operating System.

Thank you for indulging me on this.

colkai
01-21-2005, 07:20 AM
Seems like things are not consistent, but are moving in that direction. Feels like IK Booster still isn't done. Feels like when you just moved house and you're slowly unpacking the boxes...you often do the easiest or the best stuff, but a lot of stuff lingers. That's the feeling I've been getting lately with Lightwave.

ya know - that's a superb analogy, wot's worse, is the last tenants didn't tidy up before they left. ;) You're right though, at least we are getting the feeling of progression, that alone should "theorectically" please many nay-sayers, (though I doubt it will :p)

Gregor
01-21-2005, 08:18 AM
I'm somewhat surprised that the user community hasn't set up a Bugzilla database for this sort of thing (and for all those other long-standing issues that we'd like Newtek to fix). That way we could point Newtek (and each other!) at open bugs w/ supporting info and workaround, as well as file enhancement requests, in a standard way, instead of just posting them and hoping someone noticed.

The software is readily available, not difficult to install, and very well-tested. I think the main issue is finding people to maintain it that know how to keep control over the database so that stuff like "Lightwave doesn't load Maya files" wouldn't be listed as a critical bug. :)

Yeah, I know Newtek likely has their own internal database for this sort of thing.


The software (being open source) could probably be modified to include a concept like "Upcoming changes", if Newtek felt motivated to announce those to developers ahead of time.

colkai
01-21-2005, 08:45 AM
Not a bad idea at all,
As you say though, it's the maintenance of the thing and keeping out "isn't in my preferred colour" type remarks and "off-topic" stuff.

If kept strictly for bug fixes so there is no concern over competitors getting wind of new features, I wouldn't see the harm in this sort of info being available to view.

The downside of course, would be when someones "most important" bug was being given lower priority than a bug they personally think is un-important. You just know that would create some heated thread debates! :p

HHmmm,, which kinda makes me see that maybe is the very reason there isn't one hehe.. ;)

3DBob
01-21-2005, 08:50 AM
Gregor - that is a great idea.

3DBob

brap
01-21-2005, 08:59 AM
Yes, indeed, an excellent idea. I don't know how many plugs and scripts you guys use, but I've got dozens that I depend on all the time. Being able to see at a glance what's ready or not before jumping on an upgrade like 8.2 would save a LOT of time.

Also, Kurtis, thanks for the insightful and heartfelt post.

best regards,

Chuck
01-21-2005, 09:07 AM
I know it's only been available for one day but there seems to be a lot of issues with this release - is it worth upgrading or should I wait for the next point release?

I don't have the time or patience to mess up what's working :)

Perhaps one thing you should do is look at the lengthy list of fixes that are in the update. The fact of the matter is that 8.2 is a major improvement in stability, and if you review that list you may well find plenty of fixes that will affect the work you do with LightWave...and you'll get incredible new UV tools and rendering options.

colkai
01-21-2005, 09:29 AM
In lieu of a database for now - how about this.

Firstly, and most importantly, send the bug in to newtek, ideally with not only a full description, but a file that they can replicate the problem on.

Secondly, In this thread, list your system (os / mem / cpu), describe the procedure to make it fail - again, if you can provide a file, do so as an attachment. I would also suggest a very useful bit of info is - what version did you update from (8.0 or 8.01), did you delete your previous configs or are you using them?

Then, everyone who checks it, keeps their replies succinct and very much to the point.
Listing *their* system specs (including info about their upgrade as above), with a simple 'Confirmed' or 'Failed to confirm'

This may help tie down system related bugs and "across the board" bugs and by keeping replies "technical info only" should hopefully avoid the tendency for people to fall into emotional outbursts.
No posting what is wrong with LW / Newtek / the universe as we know it, simply the fact's ma'am - simply the facts.

For example (and this one is made up):
Bug:
Loading LW layout after using the Spreadsheet to multi-select some lights for property change of intensity causes the lamp in the corener of the room to resize to zero so I can't see my keyboard. :p << see attached (not really) scene file >>

System:
AMD 1800+XP / 1GB RAM / W98SE
Elsa Erazor II Geforce DDR video card (32MB)
Upgrade from 8.01 - config files build from scratch

----------
Reply1:
Unconfirmed
System:
MAC OSX 10 / 500 MB RAM
Upgrade from 8.0 - old configs used
-------------

whacha think? This for me would work and I'm sure be useful to Newtek if they could look and see, say, only idiots like me running an old OS had the problem, or related to certain video cards / memory etc...

Elmar Moelzer
01-21-2005, 09:42 AM
Hello!
The changes to the SDK, that affect plugins have been requested by many 3rd party developers, including Steve Worley.
Yes they break some existing plugins, but they were necessary and long overdue (this was never done right in the first place, if you ask me and that was not the fault of the current dev- team).
E.g. the change that affects many masterplugins was done because of the original way it worked was e.g. responsible for overly large scenefiles and problems with Screamernet.
It is unfortunate that this breaks plugins, but this was an "either, or"- decision.
Either keep it working the way it was and accept the problems it caused, or fix it and make it work better for the future, but accept breaking some existing plugins.
CU
Elmar

Robi
01-21-2005, 11:58 AM
The Character Picker is working over here !yes, the CharacterPicker is OK without the NinjaRig Panel

theo
01-21-2005, 12:43 PM
In lieu of a database for now - how about this.

Firstly, and most importantly, send the bug in to newtek, ideally with not only a full description, but a file that they can replicate the problem on.

Secondly, In this thread, list your system (os / mem / cpu), describe the procedure to make it fail - again, if you can provide a file, do so as an attachment. I would also suggest a very useful bit of info is - what version did you update from (8.0 or 8.01), did you delete your previous configs or are you using them?

Then, everyone who checks it, keeps their replies succinct and very much to the point.
Listing *their* system specs (including info about their upgrade as above), with a simple 'Confirmed' or 'Failed to confirm'

This may help tie down system related bugs and "across the board" bugs and by keeping replies "technical info only" should hopefully avoid the tendency for people to fall into emotional outbursts.
No posting what is wrong with LW / Newtek / the universe as we know it, simply the fact's ma'am - simply the facts.


Actually this is a nice idea. If we can separate out the emotion from the actual issue a lot more might be accomplished at a quicker pace.

I think the Newtek team should seriously consider this approach. Bug problems will end up in the forums for sure anyways but if there is a reporting standard that folks are encouraged to follow then that forum may actually end up solving some problems rather than starting brush fires all the time.

Fact is the general support forum is really too general to serve as a bug depot.

Karmacop
01-21-2005, 05:24 PM
Hello!
The changes to the SDK, that affect plugins have been requested by many 3rd party developers, including Steve Worley.
Yes they break some existing plugins, but they were necessary and long overdue (this was never done right in the first place, if you ask me and that was not the fault of the current dev- team).

"Newtek should rewrite Lightwave"

"My plugins don't work"

You just can't win Elmar, someone will always complain. :p

lunarcamel
01-21-2005, 05:38 PM
Perhaps one thing you should do is look at the lengthy list of fixes that are in the update...

I did read the list of improvements - then I read a long list of problems posted throughout the major forums - which is why I asked my question :)

Glad to see though you made a bug report section - helps seperate fact from fiction.

SplineGod
01-22-2005, 01:02 AM
Karma,
I completely agree. I dont know if people actually try and use other applications or what. I dont have one piece of software that hasnt crashed on me at some point.
Ive worked next to people using Maya and constantly listened to them cuss and swear because Maya crashed or something didnt work, was buggy, hard to figure out or whatever. Its simply a part of doing business. I use Lightwave to make a living creating CGI. I get pissed at it sometimes and swear at it once in awhile too. Sometimes Ill call up other professional LW users or get calls from them. We piss and moan about LW. In the end the conversation ALWAYS goes full circle and we talk about all the cool things we can do with LW and how much we love using it. :)