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chrisdz
04-14-2003, 10:10 PM
I've run into a problem in the last few days since updating to 10.2.5 - and I'm assuming it's specifically because of the OpenGL changes that they implemented.

Whenever I try to rotate objects in the perspective view (almost always with smooth shading or wireframe shading turned on, but this could be irreleavant) the entire system simply freezes. Kaput.

Modeler gets the spinning beachball, and the entire system comes to a screeching halt. There's no kernel panic or other warning... the system simply stops responding altogether. Nothing short of powering down will get things going again.

I've not been able to use modeler for more than 10 minutes without this crash happening. Argh.

tapsnap
04-15-2003, 06:31 AM
I'm having a similar problem on my powerbook. It started happening immediately after upgrading. In layout, after about 30 seconds to a minute after opening the scene the picture just disappears when I move any dialog box over it then the remaining image just freezes.
I'm getting really sick of these half-baked upgrades.

chrisdz
04-15-2003, 08:51 AM
Yeah.

I have this foolish hope that the reason for the month+ delay in the 7.5b mac update is actually because they were aware of something like this and planning to fix it.

Honestly, I've never had a system update (under X) bork me on anything like this before... unfortunately, the complete inability to "un-update" really leaves me kind of screwed here. Even re-installing the OS, it would try to update itself back to 10.2.5 "or nothing".

Dammit.

stevejh101
04-15-2003, 09:51 AM
I've started to have the same problem with my mac.
I can't even force quit.

chrisdz
04-15-2003, 11:02 AM
Right - same here. The whole system just goes away, and the only thing that will restart the system is a power-down.

Gotta love the infinte wisdom of Apple in completely eliminating the reset switch. Niiiiice. "Our OS is uncrashable, so why would you ever need to restart?" - *SMACK*

mbaldwin
04-15-2003, 12:34 PM
same syndrome here. I'm glad it's not just me.

lt_ethe
04-15-2003, 01:49 PM
Ditto all that. Bummer deal. I hope a fix comes soon.

Though I hadn't realized that the new Macs had lost the reset switch... My dual 500 has been getting its reset switch well worn these days.

mbaldwin
04-15-2003, 02:03 PM
i was working on a single-layer model all morning, no problem.

As soon as it became a multi-layer object file I froze--coincidence? I'm gonna try to work in one layer again and see.

chrisdz
04-15-2003, 02:04 PM
Oh yes. It's beautiful... no reset switch, and no button to eject the CD/DVD drive tray. it has to be done from the keyboard now. It's really a bad idea.

chrisdz
04-15-2003, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by mbaldwin
i was working on a single-layer model all morning, no problem.

As soon as it became a multi-layer object file I froze--coincidence? I'm gonna try to work in one layer again and see.

Actually, I hadn't paid attention to that specific condition - but the model that froze for me was also multi-layer. I'll have to pay attention to see if there's a correlation.

roberthurt
04-15-2003, 03:46 PM
Could you guys post a brief summary of your hardware setup? I've not run into problems yet (though I think I can take credit for first contacting NewTek about what turned out to be the 7.5b diffuse shading bug) but sometimes these things can be related to a particular hardware/software combo...

chrisdz
04-15-2003, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by roberthurt
Could you guys post a brief summary of your hardware setup? I've not run into problems yet (though I think I can take credit for first contacting NewTek about what turned out to be the 7.5b diffuse shading bug) but sometimes these things can be related to a particular hardware/software combo...

My machine is a dual 1.25 quicksilver with 1.5 gigs of ram running a very recent (machine is only 2 months old) install of the OS. No fancy extras mucking with the system. The video card is Apple's OEM Radeon 9000 card, connected to a 21" cinema display.

(side note: if apple doesn't make the 9700 available for direct purchase soon, I'm going to have to write a Strongly Worded Letter?. The only reason I bought the machine was because they swore up and down that I could upgrade to a 9700 later.)

lt_ethe
04-15-2003, 04:29 PM
Dual 500 Mhz G4, 1 GB Ram, Radeon 8500, Mac OS 10.2.5.

Definitely attributable to the new OS build.

OBTW, I'm running 7.5b. I had no noticable problems with it, and got it before it was taken down. The freeze has only come up with 10.2.5

chrisdz
04-15-2003, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by lt_ethe
Dual 500 Mhz G4, 1 GB Ram, Radeon 8500, Mac OS 10.2.5.

Definitely attributable to the new OS build.

OBTW, I'm running 7.5b. I had no noticable problems with it, and got it before it was taken down. The freeze has only come up with 10.2.5

I was running 7.5b and figured the problem was due to the patch - so I switched back to my 7.5 clean install, and the problem persisted... so I would say it's not a 7.5b-related issue.

justinowens
04-15-2003, 05:30 PM
I updated to 10.2.5 the other day and haven't had any problems with LightWave (layour or modeler). In modeler I've been constantly using multi-layered objects, no freezes or anything.

I'm running LW 7.5 on a 933Mhz G4, 1.5gb of RAM and a Nvidia Geforce 4 card.

lt_ethe
04-15-2003, 05:34 PM
So mb a multi-processing problem or a ATI/Radeon problem?

I'm gonna place my bet on the Radeon being the issue here.

justinowens
04-15-2003, 05:40 PM
I was actually starting to think the same thing, that maybe it's a Radeon problem...when I first heard of this problem, it was from a client who had just upgraded and I know he has a Radeon graphics card.

-Justin

JackDeL
04-15-2003, 07:29 PM
I'm having the same problems here. :( In fact, it had been so long since the last time my machine locked up (OS9) that when it happened, I sat here like a dufus; blinking dumbfounded at the screen for several minutes before I realized what was going on! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I'm Running: OS 10.2.5, 512mb ram, 1 Radeon 8500 64mb (agp), 1 Radeon 7000 32mb (pci) each with one monitor. 19" viewsonic crt & 17" Apple studio display crt, respectively. and Lightwave 7.5 (build 477).

Up until the 10.2.5 I've had no problems, and even now it only seems to affect modeler. :(

Has anyone had any crashes related to 10.2.5 while in layout?

mh123
04-15-2003, 09:20 PM
You might want to try this. When the computer freezes, try to put the computer to sleep. For example, if you have a Apple LCD, just sleep the monitor. This might take a couple of tries, and it typically takes up to 30 seconds for the sleep to register. At this point you can rewake the computer and everything will be right back where you left it.

This may sound like total BS. Just try it.

I'm new to Lightwave, but this sounds exactly like freezes that have been described in openGL games ever since 10.0. They have been correlated to a wide variety of ATI cards on a wide variety of machines. Each OS update seems to slightly alter the affected demographic. No known solution and Apple refuses to acknowledge the problem.

tumblemonster
04-16-2003, 01:17 AM
I read through the thread and have tried causing the problem on my own machine, without success (a good thing I guess). I've loaded a large model or two with high polys and multiple layers and haven't had a freeze.

I'm running 10.2.5 and 7.5. I'm using a G4 450 and a radeon 8500 AGP graphics card.

-tm

stevejh101
04-16-2003, 03:02 AM
Dual 1.4
1.5GB RAM
Radeon 9000 PRO

OS 10.2.5

Looks like I'm going to have to reinstall the OS.

turbo
04-17-2003, 06:06 PM
well this is my first post and i tried everything before coming here, but am i glad to discover its not just me!

heres my info:

Clean LW 7.5
Mac OS 10.2.5
Dual G4 500
1024 RAM
ATI Radeon 8500

and these new crashes are driving me nutz! ... they just started since upgrading to 10.2.5

they happen not just with rotate, but also move.

and with just a single layer object.

its not the 7.5b because i haven't upgraded to it.

chrisdz
04-17-2003, 06:31 PM
NewTek has gone away haven't they? I feel forsaken *sob*

turbo
04-17-2003, 06:34 PM
... just checked atitech.com ... no new driver releases yet.. :(

turbo
04-17-2003, 07:36 PM
This is from my system logs.

Apr 17 18:16:35 teri-thoms-Computer syslogd: restart

Apr 17 18:17:18 teri-thoms-Computer sshd[463]: Could not reverse map address 10.42.42.20.

Apr 17 18:17:18 teri-thoms-Computer sshd[463]: Accepted publickey for teri from 10.42.42.20 port 51330 ssh2

Apr 17 18:17:27 teri-thoms-Computer mach_kernel: ATIRadeon::submit_buffer: Overflowed block waiting for FIFO space. Have 3, need 6. RBBM_STATUS 0x8011c100

Apr 17 18:17:27 teri-thoms-Computer mach_kernel: ATIRadeon::submit_buffer: Overflowed block waiting for FIFO space. Have 3, need 6. RBBM_STATUS 0x8011c100

Apr 17 18:17:28 teri-thoms-Computer mach_kernel: ATIRadeon::submit_buffer: Overflowed block waiting for FIFO space. Have 3, need 6. RBBM_STATUS 0x8011c100

Apr 17 18:17:41 teri-thoms-Computer /usr/libexec/fix_prebinding: fix_prebinding quitting for now.

Apr 17 18:17:44 teri-thoms-Computer mach_kernel: ATIRadeon::submit_buffer: Overflowed block waiting for FIFO space. Have 3, need 6. RBBM_STATUS 0x8011c100

Apr 17 18:17:44 teri-thoms-Computer mach_kernel: ATIRadeon::submit_buffer: Overflowed block waiting for FIFO space. Have 3, need 6. RBBM_STATUS 0x8011c100

Apr 17 18:17:56 teri-thoms-Computer mach_kernel: ATIRadeon::submit_buffer: Overflowed block waiting for FIFO space. Have 3, need 6. RBBM_STATUS 0x8011c100

Apr 17 18:17:56 teri-thoms-Computer mach_kernel: ATIRadeon::submit_buffer: Overflowed block waiting for FIFO space. Have 3, need 6. RBBM_STATUS 0x8011c100

Apr 17 18:18:07 teri-thoms-Computer mach_kernel: ATIRadeon::submit_buffer: Overflowed block waiting for FIFO space. Have 3, need 6. RBBM_STATUS 0x8011c100

Apr 17 18:18:08 teri-thoms-Computer mach_kernel: ATIRadeon::submit_buffer: Overflowed block waiting for FIFO space. Have 3, need 6. RBBM_STATUS 0x8011c100

Hope it helps..

mbaldwin
04-17-2003, 07:47 PM
I swapped out my Radeon board for an Nvidia and the problem went away. I know this is not a reasonable solution for most people--someone give a shoutout if ATI/Apple/Newtek make progress on this one.

This is a lethal problem--no intermittant crashes; you are pretty much guaranteed to crash during a modeling session(with Radeon and 10.2.5 installed--the machine giving me problems was a dual mirror door 1.2ghz).

Ade
04-17-2003, 09:00 PM
Dp 1.25 ATI 9000 1.75 ram 10.2.5
Same prolem, cant even access and of the other apps while its frozen ala os9!
This problem was there before 10.2.5 though!
Alwaysbeen there when u rotate.

turbo
04-18-2003, 11:59 AM
anyone wanna wager a guestimate on when we might expect ati and or apple to address this problem? :confused:

... or is there some lw config text file we can edit for the time being?

tumblemonster
04-18-2003, 12:47 PM
Could this have something to do with the USB bug Apple acknowledged today? It causes kernal panic.

http://www.macnn.com reproted on it today.

-tm

mlinde
04-18-2003, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by mh123
I'm new to Lightwave, but this sounds exactly like freezes that have been described in openGL games ever since 10.0. They have been correlated to a wide variety of ATI cards on a wide variety of machines. Each OS update seems to slightly alter the affected demographic. No known solution and Apple refuses to acknowledge the problem.

I'm not running 10.2.5 yet, mostly because I don't have time to troubleshoot OGL or USB problems, but it was well documented in the notes leading up to 10.2.5 that there were significant changes to OGL in 10.2.5. We can only hope that NewTek paid attention to those notes, and the next LW release will deal with these new incompatibilities, if they are something NT can fix. I've been whining about graphics support (beyond 2D) on the Mac for over 5 years, so I have to say I'm not surprised that there are so many problems, because they've (Apple) always been the unloved child in the 3D industry. For all the touted OGL compatibility in LightWave (starting with version 5.6) and the Mac OS (starting with 10.x) 3D graphics today feel like working in PS 3.0.5 with multiple layers on a Quadra 950 :(

lt_ethe
04-18-2003, 01:34 PM
Yah, thas why I've moved onto the PC. I still enjoy the mac, and use it for all my communication needs. Insofar as LW goes though, when 8 comes out, it's going on my PC.

Mac is too far behind, too sluggish, and not well enough supported for 3D work. I don't have time to ***** and moan and not get top results.

For the immediate future, it'd be nice to find a solution to this problem... I don't have LW on the PC yet.

eblu
04-18-2003, 01:47 PM
mlinde,
i mostly agree with you, but i want to point something out. Developers who register with Apple, a reasonable and Responsible thing for any company that develps Mac software to do, get information Prior to the actual changes, about the nature of the changes. This information comes in the form of read me files, enews flyers, 1 on 1 discussions, help documents, quicktime movies, online tutorials, video dvds, and copious notes... in the accessible code!

Apple makes a lot of changes to their code, and sometimes major changes have adverse effects, what users do not see is that Apple makes every reasonable attempt to educate developers about those changes, BEFORE they make them, usually offering workarounds, or proper ways of doing things, in the form of example code.
Its a matter of not being able to get the horse to take the pointed hint and drink already!

and then sometimes Apple introduces a bug, such as the USb kernel panic... owch. Hasnt affected me, but i pity those who are having this trouble.

btw: apple may not know about this OpenGL problem, if they dont know... they cant fix it. feel free to send them feedback here:
http://www.apple.com/macosx/feedback/

jcool
04-18-2003, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by turbo
anyone wanna wager a guestimate on when we might expect ati and or apple to address this problem? :confused:

... or is there some lw config text file we can edit for the time being?


...if Apple does release a fix, it'll probably be in the form of 10.2.6. Their 10.2.3 update broke Maya completely on the GeForceTi, and they didn't care enough to fix it. Not until 10.2.4 did Maya start working again. Not that I wouldn't like to hope, however. Man, I'm staying a release back on OSX from here on out.

turbo
04-18-2003, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by eblu
...
btw: apple may not know about this OpenGL problem, if they dont know... they cant fix it. feel free to send them feedback here:
http://www.apple.com/macosx/feedback/
Thx.. did it. :) :cool: in fact i copy pasted my system logs into the feedback submission field :D

Beamtracer
04-20-2003, 06:47 PM
I'm in the process of 'downgrading' my OS 10.2.5 back to 10.2.4 using the "archive and install" function.

Doesn't Newtek get access to new versions of OS X before they are released?

Does Newtek get a chance to test Lightwave on the new OS before it is released?

Could this situation have been predicted, and a warning posted on this forum?

RhymeSayersMN
04-20-2003, 09:52 PM
I would like to downgrade too, care to share how to do it? =)

paintboy
04-21-2003, 07:20 AM
Beamster.....just curious, do you run and ATI card(oem or retail)
both machines here have N'videa cards and i have not seen this bug.
X.2.5 seems to be working fine so far here?

Pensart
04-21-2003, 08:05 AM
Hi there,

It seems to be a USB problem.
It has nothing to do with newtek or ati (I think). Apple admitted there was a bug.

So try to unplug all your usb hardware exept for the mouse and keyb.

Especially hubs must be unattached.

If this helps you have to replace the
( IOUSBFamily.kext ) from a 10.2.4 version.

U can search on a mac specific forum how to do this.

Greetz,
Hope this helps.

RhymeSayersMN
04-21-2003, 10:29 AM
I didn't try disconnecting the USB devices, but i went back to 10.2.3 from 10.2.5 and everything works now so im happy and I guess .5 was the problem.

chrisdz
04-21-2003, 10:37 AM
Unplugging all my USB hardware isn't a practical solution at all. I can't get any work done without my tablet, scanner, camera, USB dongle, etc. - not to mention that everything works flawlessly in every application *except* Lightwave...

Nat Lyman
04-21-2003, 11:46 AM
This was on the MacNN site, regarding the USB Bug:

A MacNN reader provided fix for the Apple-acknowledged Mac OS X 10.2.5 USB bug, which we noted this morning: "Apple hasen't posted a fix for the solution just a work around. The problem lies with the file IOUSBFamily.kext which is updated to version 1.9.8 with OS 10.2.5. Downlaoding version 1.9.7 from the following link and replacing the new one in the System - Library - Extensions folder then restarting will fix the problem."
Maybe it will help your situation

chrisdz
04-21-2003, 11:53 AM
The USB problem described in the Apple release is not what's happening to me. There's no kernel panic or anything of that nature... the system simply freezes and I get the spinning beachball. It's just like an old-fasioned OS9 "lockup". Sometimes background processes will even continue, like whatever song is going in iTunes will even keep playing until it's done... but I can't switch apps, force quit, or do anything but yank the power...

ArneK
04-21-2003, 03:44 PM
My guess is that this is all an OpenGL/ATI driver related problem. I have a dual 1GHz with a Nvidia card and it works flawlessly on 10.2.5 even on multi-layered hi-poly objects.

I also have a Digital Voodoo hi-end broadcast card for post production in my Mac, and Voodoo recommends to stay away from all ATI cards as they cause all kinds of freaky problems.

ATI has a long history of bad Mac drivers, and I've had my far share of problems in the past (pre-OSX) due to this. There will never be an ATI card in any of my Macs ever again...

Ade
04-22-2003, 08:58 AM
Just got 3 more system freezes while trying to rotate perspective view in modeller...ARRRRRGH!

Have to hard restart the mac! Wheres those updates?

paintboy
04-22-2003, 09:39 AM
Ade, dont mean to stick a pin in yer balloon... i dont think its LW.

turbo
04-22-2003, 09:39 AM
As I said before.. the problem is ATI and 10.2.5 related. Nothing I can do about switching cards because my computer can only use a video card that has 2x AGP support.

BUT.. I have been working with a minimum of freezes by staying in wireframe view as much as possible. No freezes in wireframe view AT ALL. Also if I rotate with extreme caution ... verrrrrry slowly, in texture mode, I don't freeze.

Also, if I do happen to freeze, I just ssh in from my ibook and reboot from there. ;) :)

chrisdz
04-22-2003, 10:15 AM
If it makes any diagnostic difference, nothing goes wrong when I'm using Cinema 4d or playing Warcraft... both equally (if not more) openGL intensive apps...

lt_ethe
04-22-2003, 11:14 AM
Try a new set of ATI drivers. Mine were out of date by one version I discovered.

I'm not ready to say that they've fixed my problems, but I've worked considerably longer in Modeler under conditions that would have crashed me much sooner.

If I can keep this going for an extensive period of time, I'll let you all know.

turbo
04-22-2003, 11:18 AM
I have kept on top of the driver situation. There is none newer than the one I currently have installed.

Beamtracer
04-22-2003, 03:52 PM
Someone asked how to downgrade an OS.... put in your OS X 10.2 install CD. You can either nuke your drive and erase everything, or select the "archive and install" option. Then upgrade to either OS 10.2.3 or 10.2.4.

I've already downgraded (now running 10.2.4), and will leave the troubleshooting to other brave souls!

[Dual 1GHz G4, 2GB DDR RAM, ATI9000 factory installed]

Hanji
04-22-2003, 06:42 PM
I've been experiencing the reported bug, but an update to the latest drivers for my Radeon seem to have fixed it, although I've only been working for an hour or so since I updated, so I can't say anything conclusive.

For the record, my system is as follows:
Dual 1Ghz G4 tower mirrored drive doors
768 MB RAM
ATI Radeon 9000 (64 MB VRAM)
OS X 10.2.5
Lightwave 7.5b

tumblemonster
04-24-2003, 12:42 AM
So, here I am happily modeling along, glad to finally have avoided a problem for once when lo and behold, hard freeze! Does Lightwave for Mac ever work? I swear I spend more time deleting prefs files and trying work-around than I do actually working in the app.

-tm

tumblemonster
04-24-2003, 02:05 AM
I decided to reinstall 10.2 and update to 10.2.4 and call it good. For anyone interested, the 10.2.4 update is here:

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=70168&SaveKCWindowURL=http%3A%2F%2Fkbase.info.apple.com% 2Fcgi-bin%2FWebObjects%2Fkbase.woa%2Fwa%2FSaveKCToHomePa ge&searchMode=Expert&kbhost=kbase.info.apple.com&showButton=false&randomValue=100&showSurvey=false&sessionID=anonymous|169074216#English

-tm

Ge4-ce
04-24-2003, 02:15 AM
Originally posted by turbo
I have kept on top of the driver situation. There is none newer than the one I currently have installed.


I'm really scared to do this! But I cannot work without Lightwave!

The instructions say that this method (archive and restore) that it will import existing users. So I have allready put all my docs in my personal folder. But Does this way of installing erases the applications folder as well?

Or does it "only" and I mean "only" replaces the systemfolder on your harddrive?

What with frameworks? Will Final Cut pro work? Or do I have to reinstall it?

I think it's an awful risk.. I cannot afford to fall out of mac in this time of year (student, end of schoolyear.. you know)

I just do not want to get more problems than I now have with modeler!

Ge4-ce
04-24-2003, 02:17 AM
Actually,.. I selected the wrong quote! :D I ment the quote right under it.. About downgrading the system :D

Sorry

turbo
04-24-2003, 09:10 AM
heheh.. had me confused for a minute there..

btw.. haven't had any modeler crashes in two days and have been working steadily.
I just rotate the model slowly when in texture view and switch to wireframe often when tweaking.

DP G4 500
OSX 10.2.5
ATI Radeon 8500 Mac Edition (64 VRam)
1024 RAM
LW 7.5

...would be nice to get a radeon driver update, tho.. and mebbe a 10.2.6 :)
... I'd rather stay up to date and work with it than go backwards.

Beamtracer
04-24-2003, 10:22 AM
Jaguar (10.2) was supposed to be at the end of its development cycle, as Apple gears up for the 64-bit savvy Panther OS (10.3). We can only hope that Apple posts an update, if it is indeed the OS that is at fault.

Reinstalling the OS with "archive and install" puts your OS in a folder market "Previous Systems". It then installs an entirely new OS on your drive. The application folder should not be touched. I think there's also an option to retain your network preferences. If you're on a dial-up connection, it may be wise to save your settings manually.

Beamtracer
04-24-2003, 10:22 AM
Jaguar (10.2) was supposed to be at the end of its development cycle, as Apple gears up for the 64-bit savvy Panther OS (10.3). We can only hope that Apple posts an update, if it is indeed the OS that is at fault.

Reinstalling the OS with "archive and install" puts your OS in a folder market "Previous Systems". It then installs an entirely new OS on your drive. The application folder should not be touched. I think there's also an option to retain your network preferences. If you're on a dial-up connection, it may be wise to save your settings manually.

Ade
04-24-2003, 10:30 AM
Who do we tell about this bug to? ATI mac division or apple? It infuriates me that someone is overseeing my Lightwave functionality.

turbo
04-24-2003, 11:25 AM
I have reported it to both apple and ati.
The apple link is in a previous post in this thread and the ati link can be found on the atitech.com web site. :)

Ge4-ce
04-24-2003, 10:17 PM
Seems that Apple will make a small update before 10.3

With improved OpenGL stability for some apps.. !!!

Seems to me they are listening!

Now I hope they fix our problem :D

Greetings

Ge4-ce

turbo
04-24-2003, 10:24 PM
koolio :cool:

Jimzip
04-29-2003, 01:53 AM
Ah, sanctuary with the fellow fallen...
(I have no idea where I pulled that from)

Yeah, same problem, using modeler, iTunes in the bg, everything running well, and then... BEACHBALL!! (Not that I don't like looking at it... Hehe, beachball)

The system stops, like reported many times in this thread, but also as said, background stuff seems to continue, music and the net appearently...

I really can't afford to have all this happen now!
About the reset issue tho, there's no need to yank the plug, you can just hold the power button for a few seconds.. Honestly, who needs a reset button when force shutting down and starting up is just as good, and you save damage to your power cord!

Also, 7.5b has worked fine for me everytime I used it, since it was first released. It was only after upgrading to 10.2.5 that things began to go pear shaped.. Perhaps Newtek took down the update for no reason...

Anyway, here's my stats:
Dual 1.25 GHz PowerMac
Mirrored drive doors
1 GB DDR Memory
120GB HD
ATi 8500 (or it could be 7500... I'm at uni now..)

Hope a fix comes soon.
Jimzip:D

Ade
04-29-2003, 03:58 AM
If I zoom or rotate perspective I will ALWYS get a system freeze, ppl say its an ATI driver fault. Can NEWTEK confirm this?

turbo
04-29-2003, 08:35 AM
I've reported it to both Apple and ATI ... neither have responded other than with their auto responders... well ATI did an uninformed canned configuration suggestion.. so I sent them my sys logs..

But... strangely.. I haven't frozen in days.. :)

stevejh101
04-30-2003, 02:30 AM
I've been having the same freezes in Lightwave modeller so I decided to re-install OS 10.2.3.
- Dual 1.4, 1GB RAM, ATI Radeon 9000

I set a large render going over night.
I came in this morning with 2/3 of the render complete. I launched Internet Explorer and my Mac froze up again.

I am now trying a NVDA Geforce 4mx card.

Steve Herridge

seasterling
05-02-2003, 12:07 AM
I'm using a Radeon 8500 and am having the same problem in LW and Maya. I get it in any version of Jaguar in Maya, although some don't. In Maya I only get it with some objects and not others. Who knows?

stevejh101
05-02-2003, 04:06 AM
I've installed 10.2.3 (LW 7.5 Mac Dual 1.4) and Layout is now dropping off half way through large renders.
I am going to test a new mac to see if it's a mac or lightwave related problem.

I have tried rendering in LW 7.0 and that appears to be ok. Strange.

paintboy
05-04-2003, 09:31 AM
just an update for those who may be interested...
moved to x.2.5fromx.2.3 this week.
have not seen modeler bug(n'videaGF4).
but have definately seen an increase in bizare screen behavior
in all programsLW7.5,Photoshop7 and painter 8.
banding...misplaced pixel chunks,cursor"tracer"
and sudden cursor point jumps? the monitor(22"cinema) refuse to go to sleep
if the wacom tablet is plugged in?
thank goodness all is as i had left it on another vol.in fact
its like the damn computer doesnt even like X.2.5 because
if you shut it down, it continues to boot to the X.2.3 vol.
regardless of where the start up disc is set to?=)
is apple ever gonna get this right?
very tiresome...you work and work, and it just seems to get more "blinky"?

JackDeL
05-04-2003, 10:25 AM
I downgraded back to 10.2.4 shortly after I discovered the Lightwave bug. I've had no crashes of any kind since. I'm going to skip every other OS 10 update from now on. To much trouble.:mad:

Ade
05-04-2003, 07:53 PM
Sounds like a good idea..OSX updates these days feel half assed.

Zarathustra
05-05-2003, 09:09 AM
WOW!!! I REALLY have to come here more often. I thought I was crazy. I guess I should wait before updating for now on - just like that LW 7.5b fiasco.

I have a dual 500 that has a Powerlogix dual 1ghz card. This damn card had to be modded when I first got it, and at first, I thought the card was bad again when all this happened. Then I realized it was just in Modeler.
I also have the Radeon 8500, with the latest driver (as of last week, when I checked).

I replaced the Modeler config and that helped...for awhile. Then I found that the problem happened more frequently with iTunes playing. I eventually came around to figuring the gremlin was lurking in the 10.2.5 update. I just would like to know where. Who's it not playing nice with?

So what exactly is it? ATI? USB? LW? Has this been determined?

I can spin models around to my heart's content in Layout. I've only experienced freezes in Modeler. WTF?
I have to believe it's between 10.2.5 and LW, specifically Modeler. If it was ATI, then I would have problems everywhere, which I do not. Now, why specifically Modeler and not Layout as well is quite mysterious.
:confused:

JackDeL
05-05-2003, 09:12 PM
To my knowledge, I don't think Apple, ATI, or Newtek have even acknowledeged the problem yet. I only know that the problem appeared after updating to 10.2.5 and disappeared under 10.2.4

My uneducated guess would be Open GL issues. But whomever is responsible for those "issues" hasn't spoken up yet. Hopefully Newtek is addressing them in our upcoming 7.5b (c,d) update.:rolleyes:

turbo
05-05-2003, 10:32 PM
Is anybody still having these freezes? I haven't had any since before the last Quicktime Update... Runnin smooth. :cool:

chrisdz
05-05-2003, 10:35 PM
I had a freeze just today. Same circumstances... just spinning an object in modeler preview. It was low-poly, texture mode preview.

dogs_dinner
05-06-2003, 05:31 AM
HI,

I've been experiencing the same thing, modeler freezing the system: am running 7.5 on a dual 1.25 G4 with a radeon 9000 mac edit on 10.2.5.

Ive found, in my case anyhow, that installing the latest Radeon driver sorted it ( the driver isn't ment for OSX version higher than 10.2.2 but it seems to work ok so far :rolleyes:

Try it, the worst that could happen is youll never work in this industry again and die poor, a bit annoyed.

chrisdz
05-06-2003, 09:39 AM
Is it driving anybody else nuts that there has been no word from NewTek about this?

*sigh*

chrisdz
05-06-2003, 02:25 PM
Apple is on the verge of releasing a minor update to Mac OS X, Version 10.2.6. Code-named "Jaguar Black," 10.2.6 fixes bugs and improves reliability in a number of areas.

Apple seeded a new pre-release build of 10.2.6 to developers on Monday, labeled build 6L60. According to the accompanying seed notes, 6L60 includes updates to Address Book, graphics, printing, and OpenGL, as well as improved support for PC cards and USB hubs.

The new version is said to be ready for release, and will soon be posted as a free update to Apple's Web site and OS X's Software Update. Sources said that it's likely 10.2.6 could be made available later today, or tomorrow, but cautioned that Apple could easily delay its release if a last-minute issue is discovered.

paintboy
05-06-2003, 03:00 PM
just checked software update ....X.2.6 is there for the taking now.;)

silvergun
05-06-2003, 03:05 PM
ive updated to 10.2.6 and the problem still there

malikai666
05-06-2003, 03:44 PM
well now Im running into the same problem and up until now had no problems with LW 7.5.
But then I remembered that I updated to 10.2.5
and here I am, was this problem ever solved?

JackDeL
05-07-2003, 10:39 PM
modeler was going down every 5-10 minutes under 10.2.5 I updated to 10.2.6 today and have worked in modeler for an hour so far. no crashes.:D

Ge4-ce
05-08-2003, 12:57 AM
As confedent as I am in all your opinions, I just cannot afford another "unstable modeler" so I'm going to wait until end of june to update to 10.2.6

There's too much at stake..

I allready had a nervous breakdown (well kinda ;) )when downgrading back to 10.2.4 :D

greets,..

Ge4-ce

turbo
05-08-2003, 01:00 AM
lol.. guess i'm brave and stoopid.. not.
- just confident.. :D .. but all is still going well.

JackDeL
05-08-2003, 06:31 PM
...I'm back to 10.2.4.

Modeler crashed in 10.2.6 (shortly after my glowing statement above) :rolleyes:

Same crash that 10.2.5 caused, with the added bonus feature of killing my internet connection! That's what I get for being too impatient :rolleyes:

Turbo, now I'm feeling a bit "Krabbity" too!:D

turbo
05-08-2003, 07:02 PM
I'm happy to report that everything is running smoothly still lw, layout, modeler.. rotation, textured.. and even the UT3 demo I dl'd today that requires 10.2.6 :p

hehe..JackDeL, well.. you are definately not feeling krabbity, because 'krabbity' is a GOOD thing..
... scroll halfway down this page (http://korner.krabbit.com/showthread.php?threadid=1063) to see the true meaning of krabbity. ;)
... and if you must know what a krabbit is... look here (http://korner.krabbit.com/showthread.php?threadid=361) :D and, also, see my avatar... (a krabbit)

sorry 'bout your troubles tho' :( .. and hope you do feel 'krabbity' soon.. (happy, silly, true) :D

JackDeL
05-09-2003, 11:07 PM
Originally posted by turbo
I'm happy to report that everything is running smoothly still lw, layout, modeler.. rotation, textured.. and even the UT3 demo I dl'd today that requires 10.2.6 :p

hehe..JackDeL, well.. you are definately not feeling krabbity, because 'krabbity' is a GOOD thing..
... scroll halfway down this page (http://korner.krabbit.com/showthread.php?threadid=1063) to see the true meaning of krabbity. ;)
... and if you must know what a krabbit is... look here (http://korner.krabbit.com/showthread.php?threadid=361) :D and, also, see my avatar... (a krabbit)

sorry 'bout your troubles tho' :( .. and hope you do feel 'krabbity' soon.. (happy, silly, true) :D


Heh;) Sorry 'bout that Turbo, Your right, Krabbity is NOT the right word.

Harassavexed! Yes, now that's the right word!:D

Yesterday I was feeling very Harrassavexed!
But today I am feeling much more Krabbity! ;)

turbo
05-10-2003, 04:33 AM
Sigh.. well that was short lived.. :(
Rotated a pavillion in perspective and 'kablooey' another random freeze.
Not krabbity at all! That's what I get for being a smart ***.. :p
Ah well.. at least it isn't happening frequently and I can reboot remotely. :D

You have an ATI card, JackDel?

Ge4-ce
05-10-2003, 06:35 AM
That's why I did not upgraded to 10.2.6 :D

I defenitly will stay with 10.2.4 until all major problems are solved..

JackDeL
05-10-2003, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by turbo
Sigh.. well that was short lived.. :(
Rotated a pavillion in perspective and 'kablooey' another random freeze.
Not krabbity at all! That's what I get for being a smart ***.. :p
Ah well.. at least it isn't happening frequently and I can reboot remotely. :D

You have an ATI card, JackDel?


Hi Turbo, Yes I have a Dual ATI set up. an 8500 64mb agp, and a 7000 32mb pci. works great except for the all CRASHES under .5 or .6 :D :p Why don't you go back to 10.2.4?

NEWTEK, ARE YOU LISTENING?

turbo
05-10-2003, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by JackDeL

Why don't you go back to 10.2.4?
... because

1) I am patient and not daunted by the random freezes too much.
2) I like to stay on the edge.
3) I have faith.
4) I can ssh in from my ibook and reboot safely.
5) If I work in wireframe it doesn't freeze.
6) If I am gentle it doesn't freeze.
7) I don't believe in going backwards..

:p :cool: :D I love my system still. :D

JackDeL
05-10-2003, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by turbo
... because

1) I am patient and not daunted by the random freezes too much.
2) I like to stay on the edge.
3) I have faith.
4) I can ssh in from my ibook and reboot safely.
5) If I work in wireframe it doesn't freeze.
6) If I am gentle it doesn't freeze.
7) I don't believe in going backwards..

:p :cool: :D I love my system still. :D

:D Your cool!:D

By the way what does this mean?

"4) I can ssh in from my ibook and reboot safely."

remote login?:confused:

turbo
05-10-2003, 01:07 PM
hehe.. thx, krabbit. :D

Yes.. (remote login) ...ssh stands for secure shell. Its a remote encrypted session.

Triple G
06-02-2003, 07:39 PM
Man, I thought I was losing my mind and that my system was going in the crapper....but then I come here and find a group of poor souls who've been going through the same thing as me!

I've had the exact same problems as mentioned here...working in Modeler, rotating an object in Perspective view (I usually have it either in Smooth Shade or Wireframe Shade) is always what causes the freeze....sometimes it'll take a couple hours, other times it'll happen in a minute or two. But eventually, the system stops responding for a second or two....then comes the spinning beach ball, and my only option is to hit the reset button on the front of the machine. Happens whether I've got apps running in the background, or even if Modeler's the only thing open. If there are other apps open (iTunes for example), they will continue to do their thing, but I can't (apple+tab) to switch to them, I can't click on the desktop, I can't force quit....nothing. Reset button is my only option.

I'm currently running 7.5c on 10.2.6. My machine is a G4/450, with a Sonnet Encore 1GHz upgrade card. 1GB RAM, Radeon 8500 64MB connected to my main monitor (A LaCie 21"), and a Rage 128 16MB connected to my second monitor (NEC MultiSync FP 21").

These lockups are infuriating!!! I can't believe this has been going on for this long and NO ONE has stepped up to the plate and even ACKNOWLEDGED that this problem exists! What a crock...man, I tell ya....the more I try to do 3D on the Mac, the more I come to the realization that my next machine is going to be a PC...:mad:

turbo
06-02-2003, 07:47 PM
I managed ok for awhile, putting up with random freezes but after upgrading to 7.5c it became unbearable. I gave in to deleting Lightwave and doing a clean install of 7.5 from CD. Haven't had a freeze since but it's only been a couple of days.

hey triple g from lwg :)

DP G4 500
1024 RAM
OSX 10.2.6
LW 7.5
ATI Radeon 8500 mac edition

Zarathustra
06-02-2003, 08:22 PM
Triple G, why are you using 2 video cards, when you could connect both monitors with the 8500? Just curious.

turbo
06-02-2003, 09:26 PM
tv, prolly ;)

Triple G
06-02-2003, 09:33 PM
Hi Zarathustra. Well...I figured I'd rather split up my VRAM 64/16 than 32/32. I figured, since I had my old Rage 128 card lying around, that I could put it to use rather than having to split the 64MB across two screeens. I've never actually tested to see if things are faster with one card or two, but things are working fine the way they are...I figure if it ain't broke don't fix it (hmm....something I should've told myself when the OSX 10.2.5 update came along! grrr....)

Anyway....I just downgraded back to 10.2.4 and got finished re-installing all my drivers and codecs. I'll give Modeler a whirl tomorrow...hopefully the problem will be gone.

Turbo...I recently reformatted my OSX drive completely, thinking that would do the trick. I installed 10.2.6, then LW7.5, then immediately patched it to 7.5c. Then I came here...needless to say, problem not solved. Maybe it'll work for you if you don't run the c patch, but I seem to recall having this happen in 10.2.6 even without it. Here's hoping you have better luck than I do.

Zarathustra
06-02-2003, 10:27 PM
hmmm, I didn't think that was how it worked. Under that theory, then 2 32mb cards are going to give the same response as 1 Radeon? hmmmm....

Ade
06-02-2003, 10:36 PM
The vram isnt interlaced like that.
eg. the voodoo 5500 used to have 64 ram, but it really was 32x2, but was nowhere near the display performance as a true 64 ram nvidia. Its all about parallel interlacing and crap like that..

Triple G
06-02-2003, 11:02 PM
Well, this is what it says in the ReadMe that comes with the latest Radeon OSX drivers:


RADEON 8500/7000 Dual Displays and 3D Games - Available Video Memory
When using two displays on the RADEON 8500 or 7000, the total video memory is divided in two, giving each display half of the total video memory (32MB for each display on RADEON 8500 and 16MB for RADEON 7000). This number will be reported in tools like ATI_Displays. However, unlike OS_9, 3D textures for a scene on either display are not limited to using only the memory for that display. Textures can be stored anywhere within the full memory of the graphics card. This allows for maximum 3D quality, regardless of display configuration.

Now unless I'm interpreting this incorrectly, it seems to me like 80MB of VRAM (64+16) is going to give me better performance than 64MB (32+32), especially on my main monitor. I generally only keep secondary tabs and toolbars on my 2nd monitor, so I figured this would be the best way to get the most out of my setup...I mean, isn't it better to devote 64MB completely to one monitor rather than to have it split across 2? Or am I completely missing something here?

Tristam
06-11-2003, 04:29 PM
Add me to the list of troubled modeller users...everything you all describe happens to me as well..beachball, freeze, shaded wireframe, bla bla bla.

10.2.6, dual 867, radeon 9000, 1.3 gb ram

Very frustrating. and it does happen in maya as well, at least with the PLE version.

Id be screaming "DAMMIT IM GETTING A PC!!!!" but I use a BOXX station at work (fast) running win 2000 and that machine gives me random occational lockups as well. (nothing related to the mac modeller bug. FYI) and its ugly. win 2000 sucks.

NigelH
06-22-2003, 05:42 PM
... since I'm running a GeForce4Ti. But since upgrading to 10.2.6 (totally on a whim), I've been getting random lockups in modeler too. I was using 7.5c in 10.2.5 for a while with no problems, then when I made the move to 10.2.6 - BAM! I've noticed random crashes in other (non- LW related) apps also since the 'upgrade' - so just going back to 7.5 won't quite cover it for me. I'll probably go back to 10.2.4 - since I saw no real advantage to 10.2.5 and concensus seems to be that 10.2.4 was the all around most stable version to date.

One item that I haven't seen mentioned so far is that I've found that the lockup (usually - so far) isn't permanent. The system freezes for about 5 minutes or so, then just returns to normal. Sure, it's faster just to restart and get back to work, but in the event that you've been working for a while without saving (insane - I know), or have other processes in the background that you really can't afford to interrupt - then a little patience might pay off susbstantially. Maybe it's just me, but next time you get the dreaded Modeler (or Layout) freeze, let it sit for 5 - 10 minutes just to see if I'm right. 9 times out of 10 it's not worth the wait, but on the rare occasion that you stand to lose something precious, you might be glad you did.

FUSION301
06-22-2003, 08:57 PM
Well after countless hours of restarting, with the stupid beachball freezes, ripping out all my RAM restarting, I shredded my system down, video card everything and worked from the ground up...running 10.2.6 on a g4 400mhz gig of RAM, with dual monitors running ati 8500, almost attempting LW reinstall. My Piece of sh*t $15 4 port usb hub seems to be the problem!!!!! The problem would happen not from spinning models in the perspective window but from using the bevel tool to do mulitple bevels on a 96 point disc.....well spent all day making a dam Knob on a guitar...but at least its not crashing anymore......
Rip out those hubs!!!!!!

to recap...
•not my ATI 8500 card
•not LW 7.5----havent updated yet
•Its a combination of USB hub with LW with 10.2.6

works for me hope this helps someone!

FUSION301
06-22-2003, 09:38 PM
I suppose my hard work has left me back to scratching my head....it seems after all that it worked for a bit...then BAM! completely frozen....now i feel bad about talking trash on my sh*tty usb hub when i should yell at Mac or LW or someone...
someone try this...make a disc give it 96 points....12.5mm radius--then bevel it up about 2mm in a ittle up 8mm in a little up BOOM! everytime crash right there after about 3-4 bevels with this stupid 96 point disc...also tried to do the same operation using smooth shift, thought i could be sneaky!!!nope
BAM! crash again...
I give up, I'm over it someone help....guess i have to reinstall osx 10.2.4 or earlier

mlinde
06-22-2003, 10:22 PM
I created a disc 12.5mm on XY, 0 on Z
I bevel: 2mm shift, 8mm inset.
I repeat 7 times and I'm at 74,977 polys and 75,072 points.
I repeat one more, and modeler is bogged down trying to compute the viewports, but I have 375,072 points now. I can understand modeler crashing at this. I've reached the practical limits of the software, or at least come close, but is still works (albeit VERY slowly).

If you were selecting the poly then beveling (to create a funnel shape) that ends up with something like 875 points.
Hate to tell you it works here both ways.

My LW is an odd version, somebody dubbed 7.5-Denver:
All the plugins from LW 7.5c installed to LW 7.5
Mac OS 10.2.6
nVidia GeForce 4 MX (64MB)
1.1 GB RAM

I doubt 10.2.4 will solve this unless it's an ATI issue, and then I think you need to go all the way back to 10.2.3.

FUSION301
06-23-2003, 10:59 AM
Repeated the process on my comp. at work....no crashing here. running LW 7.0 osx 10.2.4...with rage 128 16mb video card..haha...no problems
well I'll try and rip out my video card at home tonight!!!!

I usually get to about 2400 points...CRASH!!! so were not talking 300,000 polys..

FUSION301
06-24-2003, 08:56 AM
thanks mlinde
well I replaced my radeon 8500 with the original 16mb rage 128 and experinced no crashes...so it leaves me to believe the conflict lies between LW and ATI when running 10.2.6....I dont recall these crashes when running earlier OS's...so when running LW 7.5 on an ATI 8500 while runnng 10.2.6 there is major problem in modeler....so what to do....downgrade the OS? Upgrade LW...or run on a single monitor with a 16mb video card...

mlinde is running an Nvidia card same os and not experincing this problem it seems to further back that its a video card conflict..
any thoughts let me know...and yes i have updated my video card drivers etc.

Triple G
06-24-2003, 11:18 AM
FWIW, I downgraded to 10.2.4, and everything has been running smooth as can be for the past couple of weeks or so. :)

FUSION301
06-24-2003, 11:27 AM
triple g were you experiecning these same problems with the same video card? If so whats the best way to downgrade....

Triple G
06-24-2003, 11:45 AM
Well, all the details were laid out earlier in this thread, but yes I was having the exact same problems.

10.2.6, Radeon 8500, random lockups with Modeler in 7.5c. Basically, you run your Jaguar installer disk, and it will give you the option to do something like "archive and install" (I forget the exact wording). This will archive your current system files, and will let you re-install Jaguar, which you can then patch to 10.2.4 (someone was kind enough to post a direct link to the updater earlier in this thread).

Jimzip
06-25-2003, 10:18 PM
I can safely say that this is not a Lightwave problem. (Much to the relief of the Newtek team I hope).
I found that even after cleaning out Lightwave 7.5c, and doing a clean install from the LW CD, 7.0 still froze.. Not the most comforting thought, as it seems this is (as has been said before) an operating system bug. Anyway, just thought I'd clarify that..

From 10.2.4 I think, that's when the OpenGL started going pear shaped..

Jimzip:D

policarpo
08-22-2003, 09:36 AM
Sorry to bring the post back up...but I was pretty deep into modeling this morning (no i didn't save since it was a morning modeling exercise) and was really humming along when the damn machine seized.

I know everyone is saying that it's an ATI driver issue, but I would hope that someone at NT is at least consulting with the Apple OpenGL group and the ATI OSX driver developers to track down the problem and fix it. Someone somewhere needs to put pressure on these guys and I don't think we carry much weight as users.

We need an OSX OpenGL champion to wake ATI and Apple up dammit!

Anyway...I just wanted to get this thread back in the light since it's still a damn problem for us OSX users.

System specs:
15" 1ghz PowerBook
OSX 10.2.6
768MB RAM
64MB ATI Radeon 9000


cheers!

Zarathustra
08-22-2003, 09:52 AM
...us OSX users.

hee hee :D

Well, the answer seems to be - buy nvidia. Since this is the second time there's been an ATI/LW issue, I simply will NEVER buy ATI again.
It's an ATI problem.
Apple and NT will do nothing because it's an ATI problem.
ATI apparently doesn't care.
So, I just won't buy ATI ever again. For now, I just suffer.

I have posted before that I think it has something to do with a problem at startup. I tend to leave my machine on for months (occassionaly I put it to sleep) and have subsequently gone months without the crash. Usually if I restart I may get the Radeon crash. Weird, huh?

policarpo
08-22-2003, 09:59 AM
Yeah...wish i had known before i bought my PowerBook...but i heard nVidia support is also crap on the mac...so i guess we just have to live with it.

As far as the start up issue...maybe the heat of the processor burns away the gremlins.

I still think it would be nice for someone at NT to follow up on it. I mean the OSX ATI dev team can't be more than a few people.

chrisdz
08-22-2003, 10:04 AM
You know, I'd love to just arbitrarily say "don't buy ATI" but it seems like the wrong solution. I don't find the drivers for ATI to be particularly crappy at all. Lightwave is the *only* application out of everything I use (including a slew of 3d games, video production tools, and Cinema 4D as well) that has any problems.

That's like blaming the car manufacturer because one driver keeps crashing into brick walls...

Zarathustra
08-22-2003, 10:04 AM
You see why it looks like we're always whining? There's a whole mess of these silly and seemingly easy to solve problems that never get resolved.

<sigh>

Zarathustra
08-22-2003, 10:07 AM
AH, but if he's your main driver and ONLY crashes into bricks in that manufacturer's car, then you get a different car.

I could care less how good Unreal is with my card if I can't model anything.

policarpo
08-22-2003, 10:07 AM
So should i update my drivers with the new ATI 9800 drivers on my PowerBook even though i only have a Radeon 9000 in it?

Or do i wait until Panther is released?

chrisdz
08-22-2003, 10:11 AM
I ran the ATI update and haven't had any issue with it (but no change either) in conjunction with my R9000.

I've only had one or two freezes with Modeler since I updated to 7.5c (the second time) - so while they're far less frequent, they still happen.

Triple G
08-22-2003, 10:21 AM
Poli, if you don't have anything on your machine which has a system requirement of higher than 10.2.4 (i.e. FCP4), I would suggest you downgrade your OS to that. I did a few months ago, and I've had zero problems with Modeler since.

policarpo
08-22-2003, 10:21 AM
grrrrr.....

i hope someone from NT at least consults with ATI...

i noticed that on the ATI site under the 9800 driver build, they listed a few games that were having OpenGL issues...so it shows that ATI is receptive to application developers out there.

They just need to know!

Please...someone at NT...look into this.

Thanks!:D

policarpo
08-22-2003, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by Triple G
Poli, if you don't have anything on your machine which has a system requirement of higher than 10.2.4 (i.e. FCP4), I would suggest you downgrade your OS to that. I did a few months ago, and I've had zero problems with Modeler since.

but what about iChatAV?
:p

Well it sounds like ATI had a good build of its drivers in 10.2.4...so maybe they should rehire the dude who made them then. :D

Triple G
08-22-2003, 11:01 AM
It's a weird situation, because I'm using the exact same driver in 10.2.4 (with no problems) as I was using in 10.2.6 (which was causing Modeler to lock up every 5 minutes or so)....the October 2002 ATI Retail Update. That would lead me to believe that it was something Apple changed in their OpenGL implementation, and that ATI failed to update their drivers to accommodate this change.

FUSION301
08-22-2003, 11:05 AM
Isnt it amazing 9 pages for this thread and no Replys from the Newtek crew about resolving this problem....at least Say its not Newtek or Its not ATI or we are working things out

policarpo
08-22-2003, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by FUSION301
Isnt it amazing 9 pages for this thread and no Replys from the Newtek crew about resolving this problem....at least Say its not Newtek or Its not ATI or we are working things out

I've sent the link to this thread to the lwbugs address, so hopefully it will get sent to a product manager and the LW Mac crew they have on staff.

Someone at NT needs to talk with Apple and ATI about the issue...so someone can freaking fix this bug. :)

Triple G
08-22-2003, 11:14 AM
FWIW, the problem is not limited to Lightwave. I recall some Mac Maya users complaining about this problem as well.

chrisdz
08-22-2003, 11:16 AM
The maya problem got fixed in an early apple update - it was addressed specifically.

policarpo
08-22-2003, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by chrisdz
The maya problem got fixed in an early apple update - it was addressed specifically.

well there you go.

NewTek, please have someone get on the phone with the Apple OpenGL group so they can resolve this issue for us LightWave OSX users.

Apple is probably just unaware of the issue with LightWave issues specific to OSX.:D

FUSION301
08-22-2003, 11:24 AM
Regardless if its LW MAYA whatever....Cant someone that knows something about Programming/Code/OpenGL figure this thing out?? We've have done the ground work trouble shooting what causes the issues...now someone resolve this!!!!ahhhh

chrisdz
08-22-2003, 11:30 AM
I suspect that it's likely an "eh, why bother, we'll fix it in Panther" issue at this point. Then again, based on the "we'll give you $1,500 worth of software that you can't use on a Mac" upgrade offer with LW8, maybe it's an even lower priority than that.

policarpo
08-22-2003, 11:33 AM
Well, whatever the issue is, someone from NT needs to take responsibility and contact the Apple OpenGL group and make sure that Panther works flawlessly with LightWave since both environments are reliant on OpenGL to do its ob.

Screw any type of excuses or politcal mumbo jumbo PR speak.

Get on the damn phone.
Work with Apple.
Figure out what is wrong.
And fix it.

Period.

In the meantime i am modeling in wings3D since it seems to be free of crashing.
:mad:

I don't think Apple wants applications crashing in this ridiculous fashion on their OS...do you?

Ge4-ce
08-22-2003, 11:36 AM
I am also suffering from this issue. First updated to 10.2.5 and the problem occured. With a lot of problems I reinstalled 10.2.4 because I needed LW! Now on this forum at least 5 or 6 people were telling that the 9800 driver update would fix also the other problems with LW.. So because I really wanted to install FCP 4 wich needs at least 10.2.5 I gave it a chance. Boom again the bug is back! I contacted Newtek and they are working on the problem. Hell.. I even suggested to do some tests on my system if they want to.. I just want the bloody thing to work!! I will not downgrade back to 10.2.4 because this is nonsense.. I need to do a lot of work on this computer in FCP and other stuff wich requier newer systems.. If you have enough money yeah.. then you can always buy another computer for LW only.. But who can do that?

Zarathustra
08-22-2003, 12:25 PM
I love your enthusiasm, Poli. I remember when I had it...I think I'm beaten down now.

I've sent links and messages to NT, Apple and ATI before, and I'm sure others did, too. To be optimistic, I'll say that NT figures, "screw it, it'll be fixed for 8" and Apple says, "it'll be fixed for Panther."

La la, won't get angry by this anymore. Thinking sunshine and bunnies and.....

Ge4-ce
08-22-2003, 12:36 PM
Software companies do this stuff all the time.. imagine buying a car..

Oh! I'm sorry.. you cannot drive your car until somewhere octobre.. Because your engine is not compatible with the leather seats... you have to wait until we upgrade your seats..

BTW.. you have to pay it! because it's the other company that made the seats..
and you requested leather seats..

:rolleyes:

In the states most of you americans would have probably sued the *** out of them..

Zarathustra
08-22-2003, 12:47 PM
Contrary to popular belief, we Americans don't sue everyone who causes us trouble....we shoot them. :D

okay, bad joke, but I'm a bad man.

policarpo
08-22-2003, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by Zarathustra
I love your enthusiasm, Poli. I remember when I had it...I think I'm beaten down now.

I've sent links and messages to NT, Apple and ATI before, and I'm sure others did, too. To be optimistic, I'll say that NT figures, "screw it, it'll be fixed for 8" and Apple says, "it'll be fixed for Panther."

La la, won't get angry by this anymore. Thinking sunshine and bunnies and.....

Hehehe...well...just coming back to the mac and having these issues that i didn't have on the PC really chaps my hide. :)

So just think of it as me taking up where you left off.

We're all in this together ya know. and hell if it isn't resolved at some point, it sounds like Alias fixed their problem. :)

Ge4-ce
08-22-2003, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by Zarathustra
Contrary to popular belief, we Americans don't sue everyone who causes us trouble....we shoot them. :D

okay, bad joke, but I'm a bad man.

Yeah I know.. I was only referring to some lawsuits I remember.. Things that only happen in USA at this moment..

ex.
-sue Phillip Morris for killing people who smoke..

-sue McDOnalds for causing overweight

-sue McDonalds for serving coffee too hot

-sue one pool company because A 3 year old was able to eat an entire tablet of chlorine!!!!!!! (I mean if you even come close to this you run for the smell)

-sue a microwave company because the manual did not say: 'don't use this to dry a cat or dog'

- do I need to go on???

:D

policarpo
08-22-2003, 01:16 PM
LOL!

so NT should tell us OSX users:

Don't use 10.2.6 or OSX. Just get a PC.

LMAO!!!!


grrrrr....i hate bugs.....

Zarathustra
08-22-2003, 01:22 PM
so NT should tell us OSX users:

Don't use 10.2.6 or OSX. Just get a PC.

Some would argue they've been doing that for some time now.

policarpo
08-22-2003, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by Zarathustra
Some would argue they've been doing that for some time now.

funny...i thought that was me. :p

hehehe...

all in all i am happy with LW on OSX...there's just this nagging modeler/ATI bug that needs to be addressed.

i sincerely think it's just an issue of Apple/ATI not being aware of it in regards to LightWave's performance under OpenGL.

Having seen David Ikeda embrace OSX and port his great tools...and having Marvin Landis take on OSX for his plugins is a great thing for us all.

So i'm not worried...but I will keep the issue at the forefront on these boards until we are told that the problem has been acknowledged, that Apple and ATI have been contacted, and a fix is in order.

It's that simple.

So I hope you guys join in on the squatting with me. :)

Chuck
08-22-2003, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by policarpo
I know everyone is saying that it's an ATI driver issue, but I would hope that someone at NT is at least consulting with the Apple OpenGL group and the ATI OSX driver developers to track down the problem and fix it. Someone somewhere needs to put pressure on these guys and I don't think we carry much weight as users.

Yes, I've communicated with ATI on the matter from the marketing side, and my understanding is that our development staff has been talking with the Apple OpenGL group and with both ATI and nVidia, both for resolution of any issues and so that we can maximize our OpenGL performance. The graphics cards manufacturers do very much care about correcting any issue that is impacting end users, so you do in fact carry weight if you contact them regarding a problem. We are always happy to work with them on your behalf as well.

policarpo
08-22-2003, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by Chuck
Yes, I've communicated with ATI on the matter from the marketing side, and my understanding is that our development staff has been talking with the Apple OpenGL group and with both ATI and nVidia, both for resolution of any issues and so that we can maximize our OpenGL performance. The graphics cards manufacturers do very much care about correcting any issue that is impacting end users, so you do in fact carry weight if you contact them regarding a problem. We are always happy to work with them on your behalf as well.

A great many thanks Chuck. I just want us to be aware that the problem has been acknowledged by NT and that the issue is being dealt with, and that we can expect a resolution soon.

Thank you.

Zarathustra
08-22-2003, 02:12 PM
Poli talks, people listen.

FUSION301
08-22-2003, 02:36 PM
Unfortunately Clients dont care about video card bugs, Newtek, or anyone else for that matter...It cant take 2 months or more to resolve these problems...Well with limited choices on the mac I will be going to Nvidia next having 30+ macs in this office I decide what computers will need what video cards and as we slowly convert everyone to OSX aswell as upgrade all our systems running FCP etc. some choices will need to be made and its not looking good for ATI. Buy a 400 dollar video card then have to pay to talk to tech support give me a freaking break...

thanks chuck for the reply
Bye bye ATI

policarpo
08-22-2003, 02:57 PM
Hear hear...

I've sent emails to both ATI and the Apple OpenGL group without a reply...so it would be nice to cut the user out of the equation and have the NT developers also pressure the issue between the Apple and ATI.

I know you guys can school ATI! someone needs to for the entire industry.

Cheers,:D

turbo
08-22-2003, 04:57 PM
My solution will be when my G5 DP 2 Ghz arrives in 24 days.. I'm pulling the ATI and replacing with a 256 Meg NVidia card. ..
So Apple wins and ATI loses.. and I continue to rock! :D :cool: :D

policarpo
08-22-2003, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by turbo
My solution will be when my G5 DP 2 Ghz arrives in 24 days.. I'm pulling the ATI and replacing with a 256 Meg NVidia card. ..
So Apple wins and ATI loses.. and I continue to rock! :D :cool: :D

you totally suck...

....suck from the water of life that gives you greatness!:D

congrats on the new BEAST!

be sure to tell us how it is when you get it. :)

turbo
08-22-2003, 05:27 PM
rofl .. will do, polycarpo, will do.. :D

mlinde
08-22-2003, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by turbo
My solution will be when my G5 DP 2 Ghz arrives in 24 days.. I'm pulling the ATI and replacing with a 256 Meg NVidia card. ..
So Apple wins and ATI loses.. and I continue to rock! :D :cool: :D
What card from where? I don't even know of a Mac nVidia card with 256 MB of VRAM (unless I missed something on the 5200FX).

turbo
08-22-2003, 07:34 PM
asus (http://www.asus.com/products/vga/v9560vs/overview.htm#)

seasterling
08-22-2003, 10:42 PM
The problem still exists in Maya. It is actually worse. I've tried Maya under every version of Jaguar with no luck. When I contacted ATI they claimed to have never heard of the problem. They also refused to let me have my old card back that I traded in. The ATI card is the sole reason I have not preordered a G5. I've also heard that you can't get an nVidia card in the Dual G5, period. I doubt I am the only one. Sure hope Apple knows they are losing sales.

policarpo
08-22-2003, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by seasterling
The problem still exists in Maya. It is actually worse. I've tried Maya under every version of Jaguar with no luck. When I contacted ATI they claimed to have never heard of the problem. They also refused to let me have my old card back that I traded in. The ATI card is the sole reason I have not preordered a G5. I've also heard that you can't get an nVidia card in the Dual G5, period. I doubt I am the only one. Sure hope Apple knows they are losing sales.

Interesting...

Are we going to have to have some sort of 3D clinic for Apple and ATI?*


*The term "clinic" for anyone who may not know what this means, is a term that implies "schooling" and "educating" a person or institution about their faults as a performer.

What do we need to do in order to make these Aple and ATI jokers take notice of their faults?

Can anyone start a form driven petition that we can submit to Apple and ATI addressing our grievances as OSX users...I can write the petition if you can program the form.

:D

turbo
08-22-2003, 11:49 PM
hmmm.. well compusmart sez apple supports the nvidia card above.. and has ordered it for me.

Ge4-ce
08-23-2003, 03:26 AM
Originally posted by turbo
hmmm.. well compusmart sez apple supports the nvidia card above.. and has ordered it for me.

I hope for you they are right! I looked up the drivers for this card.. and.. There are NO drivers for Mac on their site.. Unless that person at compusmart writes them,.. you maybe have a problem..

(or offcourse their site is not up to date..)

:rolleyes:

claw
08-23-2003, 03:56 AM
Sounds like you have to re-flash the card to work in mac, and even then it's not possible that all the memory is working, due to driver issues.

mlinde
08-23-2003, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by turbo
hmmm.. well compusmart sez apple supports the nvidia card above.. and has ordered it for me.

Make sure you have a good return policy, no-one has documented successfully flashing an nVidia card greater than the 2MX. I would be careful as well, since the 5600FX and the 5200FX are not the same GPU, so it may simply not work, even in a G5.

On a side note, nVidia did post a job (I think at hotjobs) for a Mac programmer, maybe they are taking the professional card under their own roof?

turbo
08-23-2003, 01:52 PM
We shall see.. It wouldn't surprise me if it goes either way. I am first in line for the G5 when it comes in the door and the person selling it to me is in charge of taking care of the whole package: DP 2 GHZ G5, 2 GIGs RAM, 256 MEG NVidia Graphics Card and 20" Apple Cinema Display..

Just to be sure, I have sent an email to the main Compusmart contact address with details. There is definitely no worries about return or exchange.. I've bought lots of computers, peripherals and software from this place.. :D

We'll know soon enough.. The puter comes in in 23 days.. :p :cool: :D

(it'll surely outblaze me current DP G4 500 with 1 GIG RAM and 64 MEG ATI)
Not real excited about the ATI 9600 the new one comes with, that's why ... lookin' for nVidia..

But anyways.. it is listed as a mac product on the nvidia site (http://www.nvidia.com/page/products.html) check it out.. :p

turbo
09-05-2003, 12:56 PM
So far there are just rumours about Panther or 10.2.7 addressing the problem.. or even the G5's.
But as yet there is no proof.

I am posting here again to keep this thread alive as the problem is still very much alive. I have posted in the Apple Forums, tried to get my supplier to check in with ATI, contacted local professionals groups etc.. trying very hard to find a solution.

It seems to me someone should be willing to provide an alternative free for testing.

Step up to the plate, Apple, ATI, nVidia. This community supports you so please support us!

claw
09-05-2003, 07:06 PM
I have tried both Maya 5 and Lightwave 7.5c under Jaguar beta, and the ATI bug is still there.. although it seems to take some days until the bug appears though... First it seemed like it was squashed, but I am getting the bug every time now, and I think it's worse than ever.

I will never buy a ATI card again...

turbo
09-06-2003, 11:14 AM
We have been seriously considering pulling out our ati cards, smashing them with hammers and sending them to the president at ATI. Then maybe if everyone who has one does it, they'll wake up and pay attention. :mad:

neoklassik
09-06-2003, 11:38 AM
Couple questions.. how much will that card be Turbo? I'm seriously considering switching to Nvidia but have no idea how to go about it.
Also say if I get a Geforce4 Ti card from someone other than Apple.. ie Ebay or a reseller can I use it in my mac?

On a side note.. thank god for these threads. Half the battle is knowing what the heck the problem is.

edit: ok maybe more than half :)

turbo
09-06-2003, 11:45 AM
I paid $492.00 CDN with tax for my ATI Radeon 8500 mac edition.
As far as I know, the only nVidia cards that work currently on a mac have to be purchased through Apple and none of them support 2X AGP which my current G4 requires.
So, no, I do not at this time have an nVidia solution. :(

anders_gud
09-06-2003, 12:10 PM
This problem is very annoying! The windowserver hangs completely with only the pointer movable.. You can not ssh in to the affected machine as all it's resources are drained up by the malfunctioning active process. Hard reboot is the only way to get out...
The messages in /var/log/system.log after a crash are:
mach_kernel: ATIRadeon::submit_buffer: Overflowed block waiting for FIFO space. Have 5, need 6. RBBM_STATUS 0x80316100

Is there a way to get the source code for the darwin ATI drivers so they can be reviewed by us users, as the XFree86 drivers for ATI? A bug like this would be fixed in a matter of days in a true Open Source community.

By the way, I noticed that in the G5 system at the local computer shop the ATIRadeon drivers had new version numbers. For example:
ATIRadeon8500.kext 1.2.24.35 (1641) (on OS X 10.2.7)
ATIRadeon8500.kext 1.2.22 (1462) (on OS X 10.2.6)

Can someone with a new G5 post about their performance with Open Gl?
Please?

claw
09-06-2003, 01:31 PM
I have ATIRadeon8500.kext 1.2.26.18 (1579) under Panther beta (7B21)

the bug is still there...

Triple G
09-06-2003, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by turbo
As far as I know, the only nVidia cards that work currently on a mac have to be purchased through Apple and none of them support 2X AGP which my current G4 requires.

Are you sure about this, i.e. have you actually tried putting a 4X AGP Nvidia card in your 2X AGP Mac? I was under the impression that in order for a card to qualify as any speed AGP, it had to also be compatible with AGP speeds slower than it's advertised speed? (8X must work in a 4X slot, 4X must work in a 2X slot, etc.)? :confused:

mlinde
09-06-2003, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by turbo
.. and none of them support 2X AGP...

If you want a little light at the end of the tunnel, AGP is a backwards compatible standard. If you purchase a card designed to run at 8x AGP (when such a beast becomes available for the mac), you can install it in a 1x AGP slot, and it will run. It won't run as fast as it would in the 8x slot, but it would run. It works just like the ATA hard drives. The G4 Powermacs have ATA busses in 33, 66, and 100. They can all install and run drives with the ATA/133 bus. What they can't necessarily do is access all the benefits of ATA/133 (like volumes greater than 128 GB). The AGP bus is the same idea. If you installed a GeForce 4MX into your Dual 450 Powermac, it would work. It wouldn't work as fast as it would in my Dual 800 (with AGP 4x), but it would work.

turbo
09-06-2003, 02:41 PM
This much, I can tell you.
When I did my research the apple tek guy told me I had to have a 2X AGP supported card to work with my DP G4 500. That if the card did not support 2X AGP it would NOT work.

A couple of nights ago we brought home two cards with nVidia chips and installed them to test them. Here are the results as posted in another thread:

".. we just tried a couple of asus nvidia cards out in my current DP G4 500... no go.
- it booted with the 64 meg (GeForce 4 MX440-SE) but with no video .. and
- with the 128 (GeForce FX 5200) it didn't even pass the power-on test..."

"... we even tried booting in OS 9, installing drivers and rebooting into X.. no luck."

These cards were both made by ASUS. I have not physically actually purchased the very expensive 4X AGP nVidia graphics kit provided by Apple and tried it with my 2X bus as Apple teks told me it would not work.

Triple G
09-06-2003, 02:42 PM
That's what I thought...thanks for clearing that up, mlinde. :)

*edit* hmm...Turbo's post seems to contradict this...ARRGGGHHH!!! Why must everything be so damn convoluted? I just want a card that will WORK WELL with 10.2.6 and Lightwave! Is that too much to ask??!! :mad: :rolleyes:

Oddgit
09-06-2003, 02:55 PM
it is far too much to ask to get a computer that actually works correctly :)

i feel all of your pain and will be able to see if the bug is gone ona g5 because my dualie with a Radeon 9800 is soon to ship, as many others are, im very interested to see if this computer i bought so i can do my 3d schoolwork on will actually run, or if i will have to keep my PowerBook partitioned and model on the book...

turbo
09-06-2003, 03:04 PM
mine will be here in 23 days too... but i want lw installed on it and tested before i bring it home.. or the ATI ripped out and smashed with a hammer! :p :D :mad: :cool:

mlinde
09-06-2003, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by turbo
...These cards were both made by ASUS...
I remember that thread as well turbo.

I know I'm just some guy on the forums. I have been told (and read) that AGP is a backwards compatible system, so a card that is AGP 4x is compatible with AGP 2x or AGP 8x. I know plenty of people who own Windows PCs with AGP 4x and 8x cards in 2x machines. The cards work, just not at specifications for the 4x or 8x bus. That being said, the issue you experienced was the fact that the cards you tested were not Macintosh compatible, because ASUS makes Windows compatible hardware.

I've said this in a number of threads and forums, and except for one small inconsistency with 10.1.3 and GeForce 2MX cards, Windows video cards DO NOT WORK in a Macintosh UNLESS you can flash the firmware ON THE VIDEO CARD ITSELF to a Macintosh version of the firmware. In addition, no-one has successfully flashed any nVidia card greater than a 2MX card (this means no Windows branded GeForce 3, 4MX or 4 Ti cards).

I would bet my next paycheck that if you go on eBay, and purchase a Mac-branded GeForce 2MX, 3, 4MX, or 4 Ti, it will work in your machine. I say eBay because except for the overpriced GeForce 4 Titanium, none of these cards are available in any retail form (although Apple did sell the GeForce 3 as an upgrade kit at one point).

Current eBay auctions for nVidia cards are here (http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?query=nVidia&ht=1&submit1=Search&sosortproperty=1&from=R10&catref=C3&sacategory=4599&BasicSearch=)

turbo
09-06-2003, 11:39 PM
bidding.. taking yet another risk :D :p

anders_gud
09-07-2003, 08:15 AM
I've looked around the Xfree86/dri mailing lists. Although I'm not a developer I could tell there were similar problems with lockups with ATI (radeon) drivers on *nix for about a year ago or so. The problems were (I think) related to the way radeon cards buffered compared to earlier rage cards and the use of AGP in direct hardware rendering (dri). I could not tell if these issues were completely resolved...
If that's the case with the OS X drivers I believe the problem is bigger than we feared from the start. These driver issues could be related to apps like DVDplayer and other hardware rendering apps. Imagine Apple rewriting not only the ATI drivers but DVDplayer and god knows what more...

This link:
http://www.thinksecret.com/news/panther7B49.html
could point in that direction...:(

Please free the source....

claw
09-07-2003, 10:19 AM
I think it's just a stupid bug that came in 10.2.5, all earlier OSX versions did not have that bug.

turbo
09-07-2003, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by claw
I have ATIRadeon8500.kext 1.2.26.18 (1579) under Panther beta (7B21)

the bug is still there...

Has anyone tried it under the more current Panther beta 5.3? (Release 2.1 was really buggy, period.. and I hear its come a long way)