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Slawek
01-13-2005, 09:26 AM
The new year 2005 has brought many changes to Kray. A new commercial version 1.5 has been released. A new interface for LightWave offers its users a fast global illumination rendering engine.


http://www.kraytracing.com/index.php?subpage=3

Lude
01-13-2005, 10:42 AM
Cool but dose anyone now anything about it????

The website is crap and can't see any render times.

But it's still cool that there's more options coming out :)

Lude
01-13-2005, 10:50 AM
Screen Shot

Exper
01-13-2005, 11:21 AM
Lude...
take a look here: http://www.kraytracing.com/index.php?subpage=4&info=1

pixym
01-13-2005, 11:30 AM
Thinks begin to move around LW corner

JML
01-13-2005, 11:36 AM
after going to : http://www.kraytracing.com/index.php?subpage=4&info=1

Hmmm, the image made in Lw rendered in 1hour 33 minute...
he must learn LW a little more :)
who uses 8 bounces anyway ?

with this example, I think anybody here can match the quality of kray and render as fast . 2 minute 16s for those few polygons is a lot I think.
I'm waiting to see the rendertime on bigger scene.

Exper
01-13-2005, 11:41 AM
It seems promising! :cool:

Just for fun... is Kray the same one that was available as a standalone script renderer for a lot of platforms?
Last one I can remember was during the 2003... Kray 1.3 (was it a freeware one? I cannot rember). ;)

Mylenium
01-13-2005, 12:22 PM
Looks very promising indeed...

Mylenium

Tartiflette
01-13-2005, 01:16 PM
Just for fun... is Kray the same one that was available as a standalone script renderer for a lot of platforms?
Last one I can remember was during the 2003... Kray 1.3 (was it a freeware one? I cannot rember). ;)

Sure It is !

I was looking at the old website quite often to see if things were changing for this promising renderer that already had the ability to read LightWave Objects files, and without updating my bookmarks, I'm now directly redirected to the new Website... ;)

What is fun is that I had a look no more than at the end of the year to the website, and you couldn't imagine what was going on at this time !! In fact, it looked at this time more like an "abandonware", as there are a lot of free renderer that never get updated... :(

By the Way, that's an excellent newx to see some more option to the native renderer we already have and (i'm sure) appreciate !

The news is IMHO also good for us, Mac users, as the old version of kRay 1.3 was available on Mac OSX as well... Perhaps it's the sign that it will exist some day on our platform too ?? :) (but don't quote me on that, as i don't have any information from the developer...)

Laurent aka Tartiflette :-))

3DBob
01-13-2005, 01:44 PM
Baking of textures

Spherical/fisheye cameras - looks like it will be able to punch out QTVR maps!

HDR output for post exposure ( or for creating HDRI QTVR lighting setups

Fast Caustics

Reusable GI data for animations where the only moving object is the camera

LOOKS GOOD TO ME!

The more the merrier - lets see if worley has something to match it up his sleeve.

Roll on 8.2

3DBob

Jure
01-13-2005, 01:53 PM
Oh my!!! Now this got me very excited! Can't wait to see the demo version!

prospector
01-13-2005, 02:03 PM
Hmmm, the image made in Lw rendered in 1hour 33 minute...
he must learn LW a little more
who uses 8 bounces anyway ?



I think the point was...

Lightwave did a frame in 1 Hr 33 Min at 8 bounces BUT Kray did16 in 2Min 16 Sec
Also LW did 4X16 rays but Kray did 16X48......A fourfold jump in 45X less time

Quite an acomplishment

That's even faster than FPrime :) And at higher values too....

Like FPrime..I need to see the HV times before I buy one of them...

Also he was using a 1700XP

at 2 min???

Who runs that slow anymore?

My 3 GHZ should now be able to do it in under a min.

Architook
01-13-2005, 02:17 PM
This looks cool. Very cool. I want more render choices in LightWave!

It looks like Kray will take a while to become an effective replacement for LW, since there are no procedural textures, no plugins of any type, no subdivision surfaces (unless you freeze?), no expressions, no volumetrics. I wonder if it supports bones? These aren't Kray's fault though, just LW SDK issues as always. The LW support is a kind of scene converter/loader which lets Kray load the basic scene data.

I'd love to play with this though. I had a lot of fun rendering a lot of arch scenes in Renderman, especially with Pixie. You can do that with one of the export tools like LightMan http://www.td-grafik.de/softw/lightman/doc/ . Pixie is free,
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~okan/Pixie/pixie.htm

silverlw
01-13-2005, 02:46 PM
Soon will every renderer on the market like bryce,poser,real3d etc be faster and better than native Lightwave. Ive been using Lightwave since v3.5 and i think Newtek should be ashamed of not doing any development at all on the renderengine since v6.

JML
01-13-2005, 04:39 PM
prospector,

I did not see the 16 bounces...

but still, I'm just saying that he exaggerated a little bit too much when showing this nasty blocky LW render done in 1.5hour with LW interpolated radiosity..
anybody could have done a nicer render in LW even with montecarlo, bounce 1 or 2, and a lot lot lot faster than that. (and it also seems it's at a very small resolution)

I'm just waiting to see benchmarks on bigger scenes.

pixym
01-13-2005, 05:36 PM
Simple comparison between Kray and LW native renderer here:

LW7.5: http://www.winosi.onlinehome.de/Gallery_t14_09.htm
Kray : http://www.winosi.onlinehome.de/Gallery_t14_08.htm

Panikos
01-13-2005, 06:59 PM
Kray looks great overall, I will order it.
Its great to have more options as well as encourage further development of it.
I can see some weaknesses, similar/same with FPrime, however the new SDK will permit implementation of them.

I was jealous of users of Max cause they had more options.
Now I am reliefed.
:rolleyes:

JML
01-13-2005, 07:02 PM
the kray render looks pretty good,
I'm going to download the scene and play with it in LW...

JML
01-13-2005, 08:24 PM
after doing some test, I agree, Kray seems pretty good in quality/speed
(I tried to reproduce http://www.winosi.onlinehome.de/Gallery_t14_08.htm in lw,ouch..)

hopefully, Kray will be a serious and stable render , and it says on their web site that you will be able to render on network , sweet !
(contrary to previewer Fprime :) )

this video from kray's web site is pretty cool :
http://www.kraytracing.com/animations/sponza_daynight1.avi

Panikos
01-13-2005, 08:34 PM
I dont want to see Kray as a competitor of LW or a competitor of FPrime,
but as a complement.
We should feel very happy that some people have the will to give us more options.
The price is fair enough and its essential to motivate the developers to improve the product.

If Project-A is more suitable for LW then I use LW renderer, if FPrime doesnt provide compatibility for its needs. Now we have an extra option.
Soon we will have Maxwell, Vray for LW.
The more, the better.

I hate competitions in this sense.
My criterion is whether a tool can help me do my work fast and reliable.

JML
01-13-2005, 08:57 PM
yep, the more , the better.
very good to have more choices to render with LW.

native LW, Fprime, Kray, Vray, maxell.... and maybe later renderman,brazil,etc.. :)

prospector
01-13-2005, 09:35 PM
I dont want to see Kray as a competitor of LW or a competitor of FPrime,

It's a dog eat dog world...as it should be

the winner will continue and the losers will go the way of the western sun.
Sometimes the owners of companies just have to say "it's a good day for the product to die"

I'm waiting for Newtek to bring out the big guns and we can give the other 3D programs thier rightful funerals.
Lightwave should be the ONLY 3D program anywhere.

The others should DIE DIE DIE

getting carried away :o
sorry

where was I?

wacom
01-14-2005, 12:12 AM
The Kray render looks better than the Vray one and in less time (the vray one is in a dual system). That should please the archviz crowd!

Dave Allen
01-14-2005, 12:29 AM
It's always problematic doing government work with foreign software.

I have been to poland. I wonder if I can mail him some old Zlotych for payment :)

Looks promising.

-Dave
"constantly lurking the newtek boards...rarely posting"

Slawek
01-14-2005, 07:15 AM
http://www.forum3d.kom-net.pl/f3dbb/index.php?md=topic&tid=82792&pg=2

cresshead
01-14-2005, 05:30 PM
i'll have to keep an eye on the development of this new renderer as it seems to have quality and speed advantages over most other renderers currently.

Exception
01-14-2005, 06:07 PM
http://www.kraytracing.com/image.php?dir=screenshots&file=lw_plugin_start.PNG

KRay is not a rendering engine.
It's a 'redering' engine. Look at the panel.

Special!

trick
01-14-2005, 06:11 PM
At the moment Kray does NOT support unlicensed rendernodes. So if you want to networkrender an animation on 10 computers, you have to buy 10 licenses. Suddenly LW's first 3rd party renderengine is also the most expensive one....
I hope this will change soon:(

pixym
01-14-2005, 08:58 PM
At the moment Kray does NOT support unlicensed rendernodes. So if you want to networkrender an animation on 10 computers, you have to buy 10 licenses. Suddenly LW's first 3rd party renderengine is also the most expensive one....
I hope this will change soon:(

mmm, are you really sure of that ??? :(

trick
01-15-2005, 12:44 AM
mmm, are you really sure of that ??? :(`

I wish I was. Though they are considering a more expensive package with unlimited nodes...

Hervé
01-15-2005, 02:24 AM
Ok, someone bought it already...? Panikos maybe...?

the best info on this product will be here...

BTW, somebody posted a link to a forum where the developer shows a F_prime render Vs. a Kray render... looks like a fierce competition just started...

anyway it shows an F-prime render that has still a long way to go to be clean (after1Min7sec.) versus the kray render, totallllll clean after the same time....

kill kill, battle, battle.... punch ! ahhh... zwiifff...!!... Chook !!! :D :D

Are the developers/coders the today's gladiators... heck yeah.. caref....ul... zwiiifff !
woaw... I told you ... :eek: :D

3dworks
01-15-2005, 02:59 AM
Sure It is !

I was looking at the old website quite often to see if things were changing for this promising renderer that already had the ability to read LightWave Objects files, and without updating my bookmarks, I'm now directly redirected to the new Website... ;)

What is fun is that I had a look no more than at the end of the year to the website, and you couldn't imagine what was going on at this time !! In fact, it looked at this time more like an "abandonware", as there are a lot of free renderer that never get updated... :(

By the Way, that's an excellent newx to see some more option to the native renderer we already have and (i'm sure) appreciate !

The news is IMHO also good for us, Mac users, as the old version of kRay 1.3 was available on Mac OSX as well... Perhaps it's the sign that it will exist some day on our platform too ?? :) (but don't quote me on that, as i don't have any information from the developer...)

Laurent aka Tartiflette :-))

i got an email today where the developers say that they are working on a mac osx version! :-)

cheers

markus

trick
01-15-2005, 03:02 AM
...somebody posted a link to a forum where the developer shows a F_prime render Vs. a Kray render...

Don't compare GI renderer's on small scenes with little details. Photon/Light/Irradiance mapping has to shine where there are lot's of details and lot's of poly's. They better show some times on the Sponza or Sibenic scenes in comparison to Vray, FinalRender, Lightscape, MentalRay and Brazil renderings from experienced people. Even if it is ten times as fast as FPrime, which I don't believe on realworld scenes, FPrime is interactive, their programmers have a long solid history, they surely will offer free rendernodes, multiprocessing and support for all LW-features in the near future. Just look at the first presentations of FPrime; how could anybody resist that. I would even spend $400 for 10% of its features purely based on this presentation. Sure I'm glad a new GI-renderer for LW has hit the market, but based on it's features I think it is still too early to spend just $400 on something so fresh. I wish the developers all the luck, but I think making an initial announcement without a demo, without good solid comparisons and with very expensive networkrendering is a bit naïve...

Panikos
01-15-2005, 03:48 AM
Ok, someone bought it already...? Panikos maybe...?:D

Heh Herve

No, I havent bought it (yet)
All my writings about Kray are based on assumptions with the risk of misunderstanding or wrong evaluation.


:)

byte_fx
01-15-2005, 06:47 AM
After reading the above it seems as though KRAY will be as invavasive as FPrime - i.e. once an object/scene is set up in FPrime it's useless w/o the FPrime plug-in.

Seems KRAY may be the same way. Hope not.

Also - surely there must be a way to improve on LW's native render abilities - which are still quite good but good use improvement - without corrupting an object file. Kind of kills object and scene exchange.

That shortcoming has made FPrime unusable for me. Glad I found out before wasting the money.

btw - I really do hope KRAY doesn't turn out to be in the same category - it really does look promising.

byte_fx

Hervé
01-15-2005, 08:39 AM
.... and you're kinda right Trick... ;) but, let's give him a chace... at least he gets an "A" for trying... he he :D

Hervé
01-15-2005, 08:41 AM
I really thought you were going to buy it Panikos...

Question... does anybody bought it already in this world... he does not even say if it's a download or shipping... :(

Panikos
01-15-2005, 08:49 AM
Some people already bought it.
This is implied out of the latest news.
I am expecting the demo, LW8.2, Worley news ....

This year, Santa Claus delayed 1 month :D

trick
01-15-2005, 08:59 AM
Some people already bought it. This is implied out of the latest news...
Installation and path problems...that explains why I don't see any results yet :D


...I am expecting the demo, LW8.2, Worley news...
Very smart ;)

kfinla
01-15-2005, 09:23 AM
When it rains it pours, I know mr. Worleys still tied up with newtek and the sdk, so I guess we wont see anything new from Worley till 8.2 is out. I know ive been dying to see an update to Fprime, Sasquatch etc. The worley site basically hasnt changed in a year now.

I own all the worley plugs so Its been painful not seeing any development. Fprime is awesome, but in it infantcy, theres so much potential just waiting to be unleashed. Sasquatch 2 has been talked about forever, and a multithreaded shader friendly version of fprime that works with g2 etc im hoping is soon to come.

Tartiflette
01-15-2005, 01:05 PM
i got an email today where the developers say that they are working on a mac osx version! :-)

cheers

markus

Hey Markus, thanks for the feedback !! :)

That's for sure an excellent news for us Mac Wavers ! :cool:

In fact, this news made my day, but as i said in my earlier post, seeing that the old freeware version of Kray (1.3) was available for OSX (and a lot of other platforms, including amiga PPC !!!), it was really a high hope to see an OSX version of the new release...

By the way, it's always good to see that type of information coming from the developer himself ! :D

Regards,
Laurent aka Tartiflette :-))

w_will
01-15-2005, 09:56 PM
I may be wrong, but almost $400 for a new render engine that does not support shaders or pixel filters seems like a large chunk of money. Sounds kind of like the pricing model for a group of people who recently released a modeler only product for $895. The fact this product loads LW scenes and objects is cool, but it would be better if it was a full featured plugin capable of rendering shaders and Sas. Sorry if I sound down on this product, but I have seen tons of hype from several web pages without any mention that it doesn't do anything Fprime does. Don't get me wrong the photon mapping and GI features are cool ,but $400 worth of cool? For that kind of cash you can add another screamernet render machine :O)

prospector
01-16-2005, 01:35 AM
I'm inclined to go along with w_will on this one.

In order to be usable with LW then it SHOULD render everything LW has to offer.
If it only does fast texture checking (like FPrime does now)then it should almost be free.

And 400 will get another renderfarm machine that will speed up ALL rendering in a more money worthy way.

If it takes 10 min to render a frame on 1 machine then another machine will give me 2 frames every 10 min making the effective rendering time 5 min per frame if using 1 really fast renderer.

So I either get Kray or FPrime and be limited to what I can put in a scene or get another computer and render everything in and for LW by plug-in writers.

That's kind of a no-brainer.

So I'll wait untill a renderer comes out that will automatically cut rendering time by 50% (the speed saved with another computer) and is cheaper than another computer.

Hervé
01-16-2005, 01:51 AM
Hey, anyone noticed on some renders the bad AA where strong lighting meets a dark texture... ala F_prime...

Now if Kray renders HV or not is not a big deal for me... (never use it anyway..), but at least shaders....

The other thing is the render times... no clues on that.... :D

Hervé
01-16-2005, 01:57 AM
BTW Panikos, ... IF some people bought it already... well... these are not real lightwavers.... a real lightwaver comes here to share... and the word SHARE is important in this community... I know if I had some cash to burn... I would have made real tests for my friends to see what is going on... ;)

Is there any rich LW'er in this world.... :rolleyes: :D

Cheers,
Happy Sunday...

Oh, and Grzegorz Tanski wrote me a mail to say they are working on the demo....

Panikos
01-16-2005, 02:26 AM
Bonjour Herve

I assume that some Polish LWvers bought it. They may be silent, or they dont speak English but the Polish School had proved that is alive.

I got a reply from Kray Developer too.
My assumptions were correct.
Herve, sorry to say No Shader Plugin support for now.
I also doubt about procedural textures.

I think that is for the benefit of all parties, so Newtek will make the necessary steps
to shorten the distances.

Au revoir mon ami Herve :p

mav3rick
01-16-2005, 02:37 AM
how about subdivision suport? there is no word on this one

Panikos
01-16-2005, 02:43 AM
"Time will show" as Ian Gillan sings ...

Hervé
01-16-2005, 02:46 AM
woaw, not even procedurals.... how about gradients...?

Ok, If you hear me Polish LW'ers, post some results here... please... :D

Ciao Panikos.... ;)

BTW, yeah, heck, what about sub-div.. :confused:

doimus
01-16-2005, 04:55 AM
Without procedurals? Does that mean without bump-mapping too? :confused:

Anyhow, no procedural textures makes it unsuitable even for architectural rendering. I use a lot of procedurals to simulate some real world materials (saves memory).


Panikos, I believe David Coverdale sings that :D

Panikos
01-16-2005, 05:42 AM
doimus, sorry for my mistake. :eek:

I am only guessing, I dont have Kray.
Out of what I saw in the gallery I can conclude with some danger.
So Bumps are there, I can see them on the Sponza Images.
I didnt notice any familiar procedural or Gradients.
Perhaps that "Twins" model has some procedurals.
Soon the demo will be there so lets all wait

Hervé
01-16-2005, 06:06 AM
Wait wait wait.... so much waiting in the 3D World... wait for rendering to finish, wait for updates... and people waiting for me.... life is a long wait.... meanwhile we're Lightwavin'....!

hey Friend Panikos, hello...! :D ;)

As a kid I did not like to wait... (I suppose any kid...) so, my mom told me when I'll be adult , I'll be more patient... that was somply not true.... it is even worse as the time is flying over my head... :D

Ade
01-16-2005, 04:11 PM
Update -
-------------------------------------------------
*I asked them if Kray will support save GI solution so when you change the resolution it will use existing calculations to speed up the new render speeds. I received this reply -
-------------------------------------------------

You can render a GI scene and save GI to a file. Then you can change any camera parameter (resolution, position, projection mode) and GI data will be reused. This works the same in case of walkthrough animation. GI data of a frame is reused in next frames and GI is calculated only in this location of a scene that were previously not seen by camera.


I guess best way to intergrate Kray with in LW is cooperation with Newtek. We have a contact with them and hope for good cooperation.

--------------------------------
*mac version and multiprocessing support?
--------------------------------
Mac version is also in works, and NO multiprocessing isnt support right now unless you do the Fprime trick and run two versions on same scene.

byte_fx
01-16-2005, 05:07 PM
I have to go with what prospectot saiid.

In essence I doubt I'll buy a 3rd party renderer until:

1 - it supports ALL native LW surfacing and lighting features without reservations.

2 - it is fully network rendering and multi-processor capable

3 - it is non-invasive; i.e. scenes and objects set up with it are transportable to systems without the package. This means no error messages of the 'Plugin Fprime not found' type

Until then I'll use those funds to buy faster boxes, more render mules, and other needed production tools.

This solution may not work for everyone but it works for me.

Having said that I wish KRAY developers the best of luck but suspect Worley's being there first may prove a hindrance.

byte_fx

doimus
01-17-2005, 04:48 AM
byte_fx, your wait could be a long one... :rolleyes:

But, while we're waiting, let's debate a little bit...

When other external renderers for LW come out (maxwell and vray as announced) I doubt the pipeline the'll work in is going to be much different than the current way FPrime or Kray work.

Take Vray for Max for example. Although it's integrated in max's interface it still works best with its own materials and lights, and animation and FX aren't exactly its strongest field of operations. I guess like 80% of users use it for static illustrations or walkthrough animations, either way that's the base for its enormous popularity. I worked with Vray(in Max) and FPrime, and at the same level of detail, Vray is not faster than FPrime in variable global illumination animations (i.e. lights turning on/off, changing color etc.)

Or take MentalRay and how many YEARS it took to integrate it into XSI, Max or Maya, and it's even not complete yet and you HAVE to use its shaders to unleash its full potential. And still it was more of integrating those 3d apps into MR than vice versa.

So, basically what we're asking here (translated in Max language for example) is to take MR scenes and render them with Vray - wich is entirely NOT possible!


My point is (insert the usual grass-is-always-greener stuff here) - the only way we're going to get what we want is when NT improves/rewrites render engine (and to be honest, it doesn't have to improve much, just needs to be a 100 times faster ;) )
Until then 3rd party is going to be exactly what it is - 3rd party. And check your local TV sales channel - there's no guarantee on anything 3rd party! :D


And in my short time with LW, I already developed the unbreakable 1st rule of operations and that is:

RULE No.1 - THERE'S WORKAROUND FOR EVERYTHING! :cool:



PS: I found that talking a client into pushing a deadline farther really improves my global illumination rendering! I'm currently developing my persuading skills, in case all that render engine stuff fails (rule no.2 - If your GI's too slow, try NINJA skool!)

3DBob
01-17-2005, 05:17 AM
A piece of experience for the mix.

Way back in 1998 when I used Lightwave 5.6 in conjunction with Lightscape to produce fantastic GI/Radiosity architectural renders at break neck spead (on 3 600MHz Dec Alphas and a 150 MHz Pentium Pro) there was a 3 step process.

1- Model, texture and layout in LW
2- Calculate radiosity in Lightscape
4- Apply colour based Lightscape lighting solution in Lightwave and finalise textures.

There were also two modes of calculation - Full texture, which always took way too long and didn't really produce perceptably or commecially better results and texture colour average (which only worked with the main texture by averaging the colour of the bitmap automatically). I always used the latter.

Now KRay claims to have texure baking in its tool set. If this is the case a similar approach could be employed.

1- Model, UV texture and layout in LW (applying average surface colours*)
2- Calculate GI in KRay and bake to UV Map.
3- Apply Kray solution to the Luminosity channel and colour channel as a texture layer (with blending mode).
4- Tweak textures (preferably with FPrime for realtime feedback)

* Averaging surface colours:-
KRay should handle simple surface colours or basic layered bitmap textures but for complex procedural and shader based textures etc set all surfaces to 100% luminous and bake to UV map - Either take sections and Gaussian blur and pick RGB and reapply to the objects surfaces or simply replace the Objects textures with the UV map and pass into KRay.

In theory using this method should enable Lighting fast GI Final rendering in Lightwave! Wahooooo.

If you apply the luminosity map at 50% or so and add in key lights at half their value and use G2 to boost shadow and lighting effects of new elements - you can perform animation/HV/Hair whatever with multiple CPUs (not that you'll need them) in this environment with negligeable time needed to render a loverly 3D set!

Enjoy

3DBob

trick
01-17-2005, 05:20 AM
...I'm currently developing my persuading skills...

That's the best advice for global illumination someone could give...:D...and it's almost bugfree...until your client sees a faster provider with the same quality... :D...or worse...a cheaper provider with the same quality since they can render faster...:D
I'm also an expert in persuading my clients to postpone their deadlines, but this is only a shortterm solution. In return the client should get something extra, in this case extra quality. It's better to have various tools for your jobs that all give a consistent output. GI-renderer can make life a lot easier, but the fastest results I still get with simple raytracing and simulated lighting. And believe me, only 5% of my clients see the difference. Because of this, Lightwave is still my favorite rendering and animation tool thanks to it's fast material, lighting and motion setup.

byte_fx
01-17-2005, 05:50 AM
Doimus -

In one way you are correct ... I probably will be waiting for a long time for a 3rd party renderer like that. And I didn't even mention the quality has to be at least equal LW's own.

On the other hand - I'm not waiting. That is to say my faster and larger render farm can and is being done while, I suppose, others wait for whatever.

In fact I doubt - at least at present - that I'll ever buy a 3rd party renderer. At least in the next five to ten years. Unless the advance curve goes logrithmic or better.

In the meantime I relish the impovements since 3.5 (with the exceptoin of a few well known clunker dot revs and patches) and work with what I have.

Life is good.

byte_fx

doimus
01-17-2005, 05:56 AM
...until your client sees a faster provider with the same quality... :D...or worse...a cheaper provider with the same quality since they can render faster...:.

I don't worry too much... if LW doesn't come with faster engine until then, I'm sure I'll develop a new technique of persuading that's more.... erm.... medieval? :D

Ahhh, jokes aside, it's always good to look at the pink side of things... As trick and 3DBob said, it's inredible what little tweaking and faking can do... Speaking from personal experience in architectural rendering (and I'm deadly serious on this one) - sometimes a simple photoshop "cardboard" cutout of a nice lady in miniskirt (or George Clooney lookalike, I don't want to insult anybody) can do more for your rendering than whole brand new shiny GI engine. It all depends on what the client wants and your ability to interpret his or her wishes.
It's the cruel world out there and the above is the Zen of 3d psychology.

We should all be grateful and enjoy what we have, not miss what we don't...
At least when Newtek is not watching. When they do, everybody should act as grumpy old men whining and moaning about next update, right? :D

3DBob
01-17-2005, 06:35 AM
I have to agree with doimus - add some RPC characters with Tuff Little Units plug-in and you will have happier customers in the vis market than having a marginally better render. It is also cheaper than a new GI solution.

3DBob

policarpo
01-17-2005, 09:42 AM
Kray seems like a good idea, but I think it's still way too early for people to start adopting it. And for it's price, a LW artist could get either XSI or even pmg Messiah Studio (which really excels at CA and rendering).

I guess we're just jazzed cause we know how much the LW rendering engine needs to be updated. It still has one of the nicest looking around...but that gap is quickly closing.

Anyhoo...with fPrime, Kray, Maxwell, Messiah Studio and XSI (mental ray) available to LW artists, I think we'll see some nice things come Siggraph 2005 that we can all really use.

doimus
01-17-2005, 10:11 AM
byte_fx,
your method is nice, clean and fast. Another CPU in render farm halves rendering time in every possible situation, and no software engine can do that on a single CPU... simple mathematics.


policarpo,
You're right... people start jumping in their seats whenewer the words GI rendering and Lightwave are mentioned in the same sentence.
Are you using XSI? How does it coexist with LW(import/export)?
At the price of XSI Foundation, one could consider getting it just for CA and MR rendering (they would've probably kiledl me if I said that in an XSI forum)...

3DBob
01-17-2005, 12:33 PM
Just had this back from the developers:-

"For *now* Kray supports only image maps. No gradients and procedurals.
Multiple texture layers are supported.
You can render complete panoramas (spherical maps or fish eye), and save the
file as PNG,BMP,TGA or HDR. Output directly to QTVR is not supported.

We are working on a network license. Please follow news on our site.

Grzegorz Tanski"

3DBob

Panikos
01-17-2005, 09:55 PM
I should be looking to become an oracle :(

policarpo
01-17-2005, 10:09 PM
I should be looking to become an oracle :(

well, if not an ORACLE, at least a PEOPLESOFT.

:D

harlan
01-17-2005, 11:26 PM
**** you Policarpo, you beat me to it! :)

harlan
01-17-2005, 11:28 PM
To clarify what is hidden under the ignorant censor marks; it is the word d a m n, not the one beginning with an F.

harlan
01-17-2005, 11:31 PM
I find it humorous that d a m n is censored, I think it was even legal on "Leave it to Beaver". :)

Not trying to start a censorship debate by any means, so please don't reply to it; I just thought it was funny as the censoring of the "d" word in the way that I had used it actually made the word seem like an even dirtier word.

colkai
01-18-2005, 03:27 AM
I find it humorous that d a m n is censored
I just thought it was funny as the censoring of the "d" word in the way that I had used it actually made the word seem like an even dirtier word.

heh - yeah - you sorta think - whoa - now my quote looks worse :p hehe
Gosh darn it - there ya go - a Ned Flanders alternative,
or should that be gosh-a-diddley darn doo-dee ;)

ColinCohen
01-18-2005, 07:07 AM
I find it humorous that d a m n is censored, I think it was even legal on "Leave it to Beaver". :)

It was also said back in Gone With the Wind (1939).

cholo
01-19-2005, 03:03 PM
Once I read somewhere that if you spend most of your time rendering instead of animating you're doing something wrong :)

Zarathustra
01-19-2005, 03:21 PM
Yeah, you failed to purchase FPrime :D

policarpo
01-19-2005, 03:49 PM
Once I read somewhere that if you spend most of your time rendering instead of animating you're doing something wrong :)

Most Print Designers do not animate, so that observation is a little off don't you think. :rolleyes:

prospector
01-19-2005, 05:30 PM
Once I read somewhere that if you spend most of your time rendering instead of animating you're doing something wrong

Also when doing 1000's of frames for animations, most time IS spent rendering.

But while he machines are tied up, it DOES give me time to chase the ol'lady around the house :D

Lude
01-20-2005, 01:22 AM
"chase the ol'lady around the house" lol

ingo
01-20-2005, 03:07 AM
Once I read somewhere that if you spend most of your time rendering instead of animating you're doing something wrong :)

Well at least for people doing print stuff you're right, rendering should only take one third of the work, if not less. Me thinks thats also correct for animations. Not that other timing is wrong, but its a good rule of thumb.

What was this thread actually about ?????

ingo
01-20-2005, 03:25 AM
double post because of sloooooooooow Newtek servers, sorry !

Ramon
02-04-2005, 11:21 AM
Anyhoo...with fPrime, Kray, Maxwell, Messiah Studio and XSI (mental ray) available to LW artists, I think we'll see some nice things come Siggraph 2005 that we can all really use.

I have got to tell you, that maxwell renderer is looking real slick! I would just love to know the comparable render times! It looks SWEET! http://www.maxwellrender.com/
However, all the most beautiful rendered images in the world doesn't make up for render lag. That's why I am waiting to see render times on it. :)

Para
02-04-2005, 12:28 PM
I have got to tell you, that maxwell renderer is looking real slick! I would just love to know the comparable render times! It looks SWEET! http://www.maxwellrender.com/
However, all the most beautiful rendered images in the world doesn't make up for render lag. That's why I am waiting to see render times on it. :)

I think Maxwell is really sloooooow at the moment and won't be getting much faster in .x updates since it's a whole new technology they're messing around but that's the natural downside of being the first one of it's generation. I'm also waiting Maxwell with great anxiety.

Ramon
02-04-2005, 06:37 PM
Hey Para, do you mean slow as in- Maxwell's render speeds or the developement cycle of the program as it relates to final release and updates? Of course I and many others here would love to see a VERY FAST and animation viable (feesable) radiosity render. Radiosity in LW and many other programs that support it is intolerably slow yet (as we all know). Though they produce such extremely nice images that it makes me long (and drool) for much faster (and less artifacting - no flicker) radiosity.
Dreams do come true (they will just take about 10 years to be realized). SHEESH!

andronikos916
02-05-2005, 12:51 AM
Hi guys - I am not a LW user but I am trying to follow most of the posts about Maxwell to learn more and see what MXW is missing - so maybe you would like to see my test renderings and post some C&C...

I am a C4D user (currently using MXW under max7) waiting for the plugin...


here is my web page:
http://www.bisand.com/maxwell.html

I will continue uploading stuff there...

cy,
Andronikos

Para
02-05-2005, 02:42 AM
Hey Para, do you mean slow as in- Maxwell's render speeds or the developement cycle of the program as it relates to final release and updates? Of course I and many others here would love to see a VERY FAST and animation viable (feesable) radiosity render. Radiosity in LW and many other programs that support it is intolerably slow yet (as we all know). Though they produce such extremely nice images that it makes me long (and drool) for much faster (and less artifacting - no flicker) radiosity.
Dreams do come true (they will just take about 10 years to be realized). SHEESH!

Just to clear things out, I haven't actually used Maxwell but from what I've heard and read about it I'd say that it won't get blazing fast anytime soon. I have no idea how fast Maxwell is when compared to LW. To get real radiosity animation out of the program in decent time (15 minutes per frame would be my maximum but I know people who really can't afford more than 3 minutes per frame) would simply be sweet but at this moment I'm only hoping for a renderer that makes really nice and realistic pictures in less than 30 minutes. If it doesn't, I just have to settle to ambient occlusion and other tricks we have in use right now.

Ramon
02-05-2005, 09:59 AM
Just to clear things out, I haven't actually used Maxwell but from what I've heard and read about it I'd say that it won't get blazing fast anytime soon. I have no idea how fast Maxwell is when compared to LW. To get real radiosity animation out of the program in decent time (15 minutes per frame would be my maximum but I know people who really can't afford more than 3 minutes per frame) would simply be sweet but at this moment I'm only hoping for a renderer that makes really nice and realistic pictures in less than 30 minutes. If it doesn't, I just have to settle to ambient occlusion and other tricks we have in use right now.

Yeah, I am one of those 3-5min render type of guys. :D I don't have a render farm so 3 to 5 min per frame is my "tolerence level" after doing tests of radiosity solutions, it looks like background radiosity with only a gradient is the fastest / best looking solution. Now, I have yet to try the gradient / distance to object (null method) however that looks promising and VERY FAST to render (although the time to set it up takes a bit). Ambient occlusion is nice but, nothing bets radiosity (in how slow it is either).

andronikos916 > Thanks for the reply and images! They look great. The red chair looks like there is some aliasing type of problem on the top part of it on the hightlight / reflection. The kettle render looks AWESOME! Hardly any noise! But, while the classroom overall looks great, there is a lot of noise. :( specially on the roof area. Why such a difference in noise levels?
Thanks for joining the thread. :)

Ramon
02-05-2005, 10:09 AM
By the way, here is that link to the gradient method by Geraldo. It's really cool.
http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=176195