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View Full Version : which external renderer are going to come to LW?



JML
01-06-2005, 10:01 AM
my boss asked about the rendering speed of radiosity, after looking at some images from other companies like ours. (architectural)
(other companies which use other software that the ones we use here)

we use electric image and my bosses are thinking of switching
to another package in the near-future.. I'm trying to convert them to LW,
I did now several project in LW but it seems they still need to see more..

I'm going to show him some more radiosity renders done in LW
but I was wondering, what other renderer exist (or will ) for LW .

I heard Vray or maybe mentalRay will come to LW , is that true?

thanks

lunarcamel
01-06-2005, 10:11 AM
Vray is absolutely terrific for arch viz work. They are suppose to be working on a Vray standalone but at the rate they take I wouldn't expect to see it until 2007.

BeeVee
01-06-2005, 10:18 AM
You should go and see the work by this guy: http://www.genesisvisual.com. If you download the Los Balagares project video and have a look, it's an almost five minute-long arch viz animation done completely in LW (even the terrain is modelled in LW, there's nothing photographed in there). Including the modelling of all the elements, and the rendering, it took less than five weeks. For one man.

B
PS. The site doesn't currently work in Firefox (Juan has told me it's his fault), and the video is encoded using XViD and is about 65MB in size.

JML
01-06-2005, 10:27 AM
lunarcamel - Vray standalone? so by itself?
I though I heard another 3D engine (like Vray for example) was going to come to LW?
no?

beevee - I remember www.genesisvisual.com, very very good work, I lost the address a while ago while changing computers.
I will show my bosses his work, thanks a lot, I'm going to download all the videos :)

any other high-end archi web sites like that ?

trick
01-06-2005, 10:44 AM
I use MAX with VRay and Maxwell; both renderers which will eventually take LW-scenes in their standalone products. Although I really like both I still use LW's native renderer for most projects: this (http://pre.limburger.nl/filmpjes/filmpjehoog.htm) is one of my latest.

JML
01-06-2005, 11:29 AM
the video is really good 'trick', which renderer was used in the video you posted ?

trick
01-06-2005, 11:36 AM
...which renderer was used in the video you posted ?

Plain LW...

lunarcamel
01-06-2005, 11:52 AM
Trick: What were your rendering times? And how many procs?

Edit: Oh did I see this on another thread? Did you bake everything?

JML
01-06-2005, 12:03 PM
yes, please trick,
can you tell the basic about your scene ?
(background radiosity as lighting, enlow ?)
and how much time to render for a 720*486..

do you have a web site by the way?

and how did you do the trees ?

thanks

pixym
01-06-2005, 06:27 PM
Very nice Job from trick :)

So, how much time to model the whole scene?
Do you use LW to model or a CAd soft to do it?
How much people worked on this animation?

Something does not look very good for me: the animated peoples...

trick
01-06-2005, 07:09 PM
Thanks for the kudos...just an example that LW is quite capable for arch stuff.

Scene is modeled/textured/animated in 4-5 weeks (by me only, rendertimes excl.) in FormZ/LW.
Ambient lighting is either baked or front-projection mapped in the illumination channel after an ambient occlusion pass with Shadow Designer. Trees are HDInstanced. The animated people have imported animation from differently proportioned older people; that's why the animation is not perfect. At the moment all animation has been updated to my satisfaction and looks way better...always those "sudden" deadlines ;) Rendertimes are max.10 min.per PAL-frame (3GHz P4)for the lighting pass and also max.10 min.for the final render.

pixym
01-06-2005, 07:52 PM
Trick,

Thank you very much for these informations.
;)

Ade
01-06-2005, 08:10 PM
Why go LW for archi when u can go 3ds + vray?
LW isnt made for archi and in many cases it shows...
LW is more tailored for video.

JML
01-06-2005, 08:32 PM
yes thank you trick

trick
01-07-2005, 02:36 AM
Why go LW for archi when u can go 3ds + vray?...

First 3DS requires a top of the line hardware setup to do the 2 projects seen above. Second, while VRay supports memory friendly instancing in the latest beta, it's in no way versatile as HDInstance. I'm looking into FinalRender right now, which has a better instancing system, but you will not get render times below 10 min, believe me. With MAX and whatever renderer you can get better result on interior with shorter rendertimes, but in that case I still prefer using Lightscape if I need animations, which has final rendertimes (radiosity solution NOT included) below 5 min !!! All in all, LW is way better in handling large poly counts, both in rendering and scene setup :) I'm not going into a MAX versus LW debat. I'm using 3DStudio since DOS R1 and LW since the first PC-version (4). I'm still using LW7.5a for most of my projects and I think it is still a hammer. Since I use a lot of 3rd party tools which still show glitches in [8], I'm waiting for [8.2]. As a professional user, having more tools makes me more versatile and gives more peace of mind :D

Ade
01-07-2005, 02:44 AM
Trick some good points made.. Do know that I am a waver since the Amiga days, I just feel a Vray render looks alot better EASIER than a LW render.
Save GI solutions n stuff like that save soo much time in Vray. I have made my point many timnes to NT to do some of these features and I think they do listen.


Could u elaborate on why u think HD instances is superior? I am interested in HD Instances but would like a demo of why.

trick
01-07-2005, 03:02 AM
...save soo much time in Vray

Forget the timesaving when you need animated elements.


...why...HD instances is superior?...

HD instances only requires the memory of the original mesh+materials. The instances can be colored at random in the material editor. If you bake lighting in the original object you can suffice with only the direct lighting (even ONE sun may do the trick) in the scene, which makes rendering the HDInstances VERY fast. I haven't found a way to use zillions of multi-colored real 3D trees (instanced) in any MAX-3rdparty combination without (hard)crashing your system :D Of course there are a lot of workarounds for this, but they don't make your life easier. Plugins like SpeedTree, NatFX and RPC can do the job, but then you would not notice my "badly" animated people :D

lasco
01-07-2005, 03:46 AM
trick > wow ! great, great job !
One of the best movies I've seen in urban viz.

Few questions though :
I had read on the HDInstance web page (of the developper) at a time that this plug
was mainly good to save time when you had hundreds or thousands clones,
but NOT whith "few" instances (tens of them). Looks like here you don't have
that many trees have you ? Even if they're beautifully modeled and detailled
I seem I counted few tens of them but certainly not hundred ones…
Besides could you tell how many polys are counted in ONE tree ?

Also, I did not understand well what helped you to save so much rendering time
as you used different tips for this : occlusion shading, baking, front map projections
and… HD Instance.
I like all LW users tested for example the fact that baking surfaces is a real
pain in LW. I may lack of experience on this but noticed anyway that baking
a very simple model with few tens of polys in a reasonnable image size already
took hours so I concluded that the time spent to make serious bakings on heavy
objects / scenes like yours (I work on similar projects) would be really too long.
I eventually found that saving a bit of money to buy rendering nodes would
be easier that spending weeks of work to bake such scenes…

So are you able to say in some way nearly the amount of time that was
saved by each of your technical tips ? Hope the question's clear…

Again, congrats for the good job (true that characters are not perfect but
I never saw any good animated ones in any archi viz… well that said I guess
faking with Marlin Studios 2D animated would give much better results than
PoserLike people, but Marlin's library is quite small…)

Please show us more ! I want to see the continuing of the movie (animation at night) !

ingo
01-07-2005, 03:50 AM
I have to agree with the above. I started too with Electric Image as a renderer and now work with Lightwave, modelling still with FormZ. Despite Cinema4D is a much more stable software with a better memory handling, and not to forget an interface that works, LW is still better in render quality and render speed. And plugins like FPrime and Microwave will make our life much easier.

And hopefully we will see HD-Instance for the Mac too someday....

trick
01-07-2005, 04:42 AM
...Few questions though...

The trees are 100K poly. So even putting 10 uninstanced trees is not only a render hit, but makes workflow a pain. Yes, this scene does not have many instances (about 20 for trees and about 10000(!) for bushes). Wether you use HDInstance for 10 or 10M instances; if used right you will have faster rendertimes.

Baking in Image mode is slow. When going the LW native way: always try to bake GI in object mode first, put the resulting weight map in the diffuse channel, and then bake the diffuse channel in image mode. This is the only acceptable way on large objects. If the vertices are not equally spread on the object you'll have to make separate objects with the same UV-map like the original one, but with more subdivisions, so you'll get a more soft weight map. With Microwave however, baking in image mode is way more simple and faster. Especially architecture is much easier to bake with Microwave. Or you have to render an ambient occlusion pass, and put that with front projection mapping in the illumination channel. This way you can render in minutes instead of hours. This may not be a big deal if you do the render once, but if you need to make multiple versions, with different materials, different signage on the building, etc. you'll have to think twice.

About showing more: a lot of the work I do, I'm not allowed to show. I was excited that this one went public (even the 2nd part of this one is not public yet). Mostly because it was one of the faster ones. The larger projects I'm doing take several years, have a lot of concept stages and will go public at the very end.

lasco
01-07-2005, 05:30 AM
Hey, 100 K polys per tree ?
wow that's 20 times more than what I usually do…

thanx for the infos anyway…

trick
01-07-2005, 05:42 AM
Hey, 100 K polys per tree ?…

The leaves are double: 2 poly for frontside, 2 poly for backside. This way you can use different materials and render everything one-sided which results in faster rendertimes and prevents render errors !!!

pixym
01-07-2005, 06:43 AM
Thank you Trick for this informative advice.

I am learning Max + Vray for interior scene, but for exterior scene, I still prefer LW.
Your animation will be better if you have switch on motion blur I think, specially whle the camera travelling in front of the trees and the Ford KA (wheel motion).

Best, and go on posting this kind of good work and advice ;)

trick
01-07-2005, 06:59 AM
...Your animation will be better if you have switch on motion blur I think...

Motion blur is a bad think when doing architecture work. Say you render at medium enh.AA. This means that the scene is displaced 8 time and these total 9 renderings are used to get the effect of MB. But in the meantime AA will suffer because normally for every pixel 8 surrounding pixels are used for the AA calculation. With MB these surrounding pixels are displaced too, so eventually AA will suffer badly. If you want both good AA and MB then you need at least high enh.AA AND dithered MB, to prevent bad flickering on thin lines (both horizontal AND vertical) or moirée patterns from high detailed texture maps. Or NT has to come with a real MB pass AFTER the anti-aliasing. Although you don't need MB on the ambient occlusion, the final render pass will still tak at least 40min.per frame...I waited a long time for decent render times, so my focus for now is on character animation...not Motion Blur :D

I'm also looking into the AfterFX/Reelsmart MB together with a plugin which calculates motion vectors for this combo, but I'm not completely satisfied with the results, especially around the edges of a frame. There should be some workarounds for this...

pixym
01-07-2005, 07:03 AM
I understand your no MB choise.
You say your focus is character animation , That is also mine for architectural work!

lunarcamel
01-07-2005, 08:19 AM
Scene is modeled/textured/animated in 4-5 weeks (by me only, rendertimes excl.) in FormZ/LW... Rendertimes are max.10 min.per PAL-frame (3GHz P4)for the lighting pass and also max.10 min.for the final render.

So what was your total rendertime for this project (I don't know how many frames you rendered etc) and on how many procs did you render on? I ask simply because most of the Arch Viz people I've dealt with have a total timeframe of 4-5 weeks per project and rendertime is crucial - hence why I haven't seen LW used in any viz studios.

trick
01-07-2005, 08:32 AM
So what was your total rendertime for this project and on how many procs did you render on?...

1-2 weeks on 6-10 procs...half (for lighting pass) in a very early stage and the other half (final render) starting somewhere around the middle...Since I'm a one man shop (sometimes working with freelancers) I'm focusing on big jobs to keep a higher quality. This means I mostly skip on smaller (<6 weeks) jobs ;)

JML
01-07-2005, 08:57 AM
.....I ask simply because most of the Arch Viz people I've dealt with have a total timeframe of 4-5 weeks per project and rendertime is crucial - hence why I haven't seen LW used in any viz studios.

on my side, I use LW for interior and exterior projects. (stills and animations)
I can't use radiosity in interior especially for animation so I usually fake it
with 2,4 or 6 large area lights. I usually get between 5 and 10 minutes for 720*486..
(if the floor is reflective like tile or wood, then it's usually near the 10 minutes)
for exterior anim, I rarely use radiosity because of there is no easy way to quickly bake the lighting..
after seeing trick video, I'm going to try to bake more stuff now..

the tips from tricks are very good, I'm going to try to make my boss get HDinstance, it looks really useful. (in our ext. scenes, our trees are about 60k and when there are 10 to 20 trees, it gets painful)

your trees looks very good trick, you use UVmap on the leaves, right?

trick
01-07-2005, 10:10 AM
...your trees looks very good trick, you use UVmap on the leaves, right?

Trees are made with Pavel Olas' TreeDesigner or Greenworks XFrog/XFrogTune. Both have their pros and cons. Leaves and bark are all UV-mapped. I make seperate atlas UV-maps to bake the ambient lighting.

PS: I'm looking for a tool to get multiUV LWO objects into MAX. All the tools I know only transfer the first UV-map. Making flattened UV-maps in MAX takes ages, while LW does this in seconds. :mad: However, if you delete all UVmaps except the one for baking the lighting, then you can better bake with MR or VRay inside MAX :)

lasco
01-09-2005, 06:35 AM
The leaves are double: 2 poly for frontside, 2 poly for backside. This way you can use different materials and render everything one-sided


mmm… I used to think that having 2 polys (one frontside, one backside)
would take the same time, OR more time, than using only one poly with
double-sided surface.
And for the ability to use different materials I found out
that you could get this with only one double-sided poly
(for example having a dark "hot" green on frontside
and light cold green on backside wich is the case of lime trees leaves)
with gradients linked to the light or to a Null object correctly placed.

lasco
01-09-2005, 07:55 AM
Trick and Pixym,
about character animation let me tell you my point of view :

Both of you are very good 3D artists and have lessons to give
to many of us in archi / urban viz. This is also true for our friend Ingo
and some other people I may forget here.
Now you (we) have an issue with characters.
Our clients don't and won't ever pay us the price wich
is necessary to make correct animations, and on the other
hand I'm not sure we have one day the skills to do this
job correctly. Animation is really an actor's job, not a designer's one.

Modeling characters is not the main issue as there are quite correct
ready-made models on the market, not too expensive.
Most of these models are quite basic and would not suit to
a broadcast or movie project but for archi viz and as long as
characters are not too much in the foreground their look
is OK. On the animation trick showed we all see that if
the rendering of character is fine their animation does not work,
same is for the animations you already showed me Pixym and
that said with all the respect I have for your work.
Characters always go too fast, too slow, and especially
have unreal walking.
I thought myself that I would get better results with Marlin Studios
library but I realize now that they actually need lots of workarounds,
indeed too much in most of cases, added to the fact
that LW always crashes when you try to render a scene
with too many sequences of image maps.

Why wouldn't we look here for some good LW animator
and deal for a library of animated characters ?
Could start with something "small", let's say 5 to 10 models
walking, standing or sitting.
Animating is a long, expensive process.
I guess none of us can afford alone the price for a good
animated library, but together why not ?

Possible process :
1/ look for all the people interested by this and see how much
people are ready to spend
2/ look for someone who can do the job and deal with us


PS : I don't know anything about rigging characters, bones etc.
But heard that you can use a rigging and the animation of a model
on another one (mean replacing the model actually).
But is this easy to do and are there any kind of limitations for this ?

lasco
01-09-2005, 08:28 AM
by the way,
a very small critic about your movie trick :
at around 1 min. 20 s. the travelling of the camera
ends slowly on the axis of the fountain (background) but…
the dustbin at the foreground could have been avoided… :D

pixym
01-09-2005, 09:02 AM
Lasco,

Your idea is good for character modeling and working discussing animation ;)

By the past, I asked to Christian Melsa to animate two of my character (modeled by another guy), and the result were good enought when pleced in non foreground. But not in foreground :o - But really far better than the POSER characters I used in my first renderings...

Yes, I will pay for this kind of work because it is NOT my job!

lunarcamel
01-09-2005, 09:44 AM
I'm not really a 'viz' guy but I do a lot of compositing/finishing work for a local viz company and 'lucky me' it's also my job to populate scenes. :)

What I have been doing is using the Axyz design models in combination with motion capture (motion builder) - I have already built a small library of people walking, crossing the street and basic 2 person interaction. I have tried everything else on the market and this has given me the best results. And because they are 3D you won't run into any of the problems you have with RPC/Marlin.

And they don't look like that Poser crap :rolleyes:

pixym
01-09-2005, 09:52 AM
Lunarcamel,

Can we see some movie extracts of these library?

lunarcamel
01-09-2005, 10:03 AM
Sure, I can't show any finished work from my client but I will post a movie of an animated person for you. I'll try to get to it by the end of the day.


"Our clients don't and won't ever pay us the price which is necessary to make correct animations,"

This is exactly why I have ended up with this solution - it's fast enough to generate specific characters for animated walkthroughs. My client's 'clients' just will not pay for top notch animated people or landscaping - so it's up to me to figure out the best looking cost effective solution.

pixym
01-09-2005, 10:07 AM
Sure, I can't show any finished work from my client but I will post a movie of an animated person for you. I'll try to get to it by the end of the day.

I was also told by Axyz that they are releasing a collection of animated people - but I have not seen to much info on that.

Thank you Lunarcamel ;)

I am not sure that these collections of animated people will be for LW... surely for Max. But who knows?

3dworks
01-09-2005, 10:09 AM
I have to agree with the above. I started too with Electric Image as a renderer and now work with Lightwave, modelling still with FormZ. Despite Cinema4D is a much more stable software with a better memory handling, and not to forget an interface that works, LW is still better in render quality and render speed. And plugins like FPrime and Microwave will make our life much easier.

And hopefully we will see HD-Instance for the Mac too someday....

interesting... just the same here, ingo - modeling in FZ, but still using EIAS for exteriors a lot and still very happy with it. i did try C4D too, but have the same feeling over the speed and quality of its render engine. if you need high quality antialiasing and sizes over 6000 pixel width it's deadly slow. i'm using it more ore less as a 'toolbox' app, especially for converting files where it opens really everything!!.

of course i also love the 'photographic' render quality in LW and the fprime bonus is extraordinary! i really can't wait for the faster and better antialiasing in LW 8.2. we should initiate a petition for HD-instance on OSX!!! ...and also for ambocc!! :-)

cheers markus

lunarcamel
01-09-2005, 10:16 AM
This seems kind of off topic for this thread :)

Originally Axyz told me they were releasing an animated collection for motion builder - that way it wasn't 3D app specific since everything can load FBX with the proper plugins. Who knows though :)

pixym
01-09-2005, 10:16 AM
... we should initiate a petition for HD-instance on OSX!!! ...and also for ambocc!! :-)

cheers markus

3dworks and Ingo,

I haved solved this kind of problem by switching from Mac to PC... So did Lasco :D

3dworks
01-09-2005, 10:29 AM
3dworks and Ingo,

I haved solved this kind of problem by switching from Mac to PC... So did Lasco :D

wanna engage a crude platform battle now??? (grin)

(off topic mode on)

well. maybe one day better times will come for us mac users on LW concerning plugin developments!! but already i have a good feeling with this last 8 release - the most stable i ever had. if i did not use fprime i'd not even one crash on a complex project during a two day setup work. so the stability on OSX is good already. as for the speed, you definitely need a G5 to run it on macs and to have some fun...

(off topic mode off)

btw. as for the original topic of this thread, does anyone know more about the LW plugin for maxwell?? i did receive a mail from nextlimit yesterday stating that in 'early february' there will be a beta version of it together with the OSX version.

cheers

markus

pixym
01-09-2005, 10:40 AM
... does anyone know more about the LW plugin for maxwell?? i did receive a mail from nextlimit yesterday stating that in 'early february' there will be a beta version of it together with the OSX version....

Markus,

I have no news for Maxwell, but the next release of a beta version for early february really sounds great
I will surely try it ;)

lasco
01-09-2005, 11:03 AM
My client's 'clients' just will not pay for top notch animated people or landscaping.

he heyyy…
I have a kind of golden rule : "don't care about your client, just do about his own client."

Funny to see we eventually all have the same kind of issues to deal with…
:rolleyes:

chikega
01-09-2005, 11:03 AM
There's also messiah:studio. :)

lunarcamel
01-09-2005, 11:20 AM
Funny to see we eventually all have the same kind of issues to deal with… :rolleyes:


I come from a commericial animation background and one thing I've noticed in the Viz business is that most clients are rather cheap and don't really care about quality. (And won't pay for quality...) - It's a very different client base.

lasco
01-09-2005, 11:21 AM
wanna engage a crude platform battle now??? (grin)


hehe… certainly no battle noooooo !
I only will make this comment : am very happy
I switched, BUT I still use Mac for several things
because it's honestly better.
My only advice is : have both the platforms if you want
to work seriously and "quietly".

ps : for plugs don't think you guys that I'm trying to make you scream
but most of signs given by Apple rather go in the direction of
a platform getting smaller and smaller, with always less
tools available (except Apple's ones)… too bad, I liked this OS.

well, wait and see.

lasco
01-09-2005, 11:25 AM
I come from a commericial animation background and one thing I've noticed in the Viz business is that most clients are rather cheap and don't really care about quality. (And won't pay for quality...) - It's a very different client base.

It's not that they don't care about quality
but you must understand something :
in the background you come from the animation IS the goal.
In Viz business the goal is to built in real, not to make animations.

When a client gives you 1000 dollars or euros for a viz of a project
don't forget that he will spent ten thousand times more for
the BUILDING of the project.

lunarcamel
01-09-2005, 11:30 AM
Ohh I understand what the final product is - don't worry ;)

It just surprises me that some clients use these animations to get business - which in those cases I would think one would want to show something in it's best possible light.

lasco
01-09-2005, 11:41 AM
Yep,
I don't know where you live and work and in which
business exactly but here in France I am and work
in urban project. And the fact is that all this
(3D renderings, animation) is very new in
the area (more than in architectural projects
that are made with 3D for years), and people
lack much of experience, yet they're not used
to what is possible, in which delays and for how much price.
Plus some of them don't know really the viz market
and if you show them a poor cheap rendering
with dirty photo textures mapped with a
3D real time looking they think : "wow this is the top
of what is possible…"
I really met people like this some time ago,
and when I showed them LW's radiosity renderings
they were really stunned ! But at the same time
if they see that radiosity is not that expensive
they may think that animating a character is as "cheap"
and as easy…

ingo
01-09-2005, 01:50 PM
.......Plus some of them don't know really the viz market and if you show them a poor cheap rendering with dirty photo textures mapped with a
3D real time looking they think : "wow this is the top of what is possible…"........

Sad but true, .....still. Although this is really what is the top of what is possible........for that cheap price.

Otherwise there are a lot of people that know if they get excellent pictures its easier to sell their appartments before its even build. Not to forget when the empty appartment is finished it never looks as good when the client of our client wants to visit it before he buys.


3dworks and Ingo,

I haved solved this kind of problem by switching from Mac to PC... So did Lasco

Thats weird, Lightwave runs under Windows too ? Doesn't it disturb all the virusses or virusprotection software running on your PC ? :D

lasco
01-09-2005, 02:02 PM
hehe…
I solved this issue :
only 3 softwares are installed on my PC :
- Lightwave
- After Effects
- and Nero to burn CDs

Never browse internet with something else than a Macintosh.

lasco
01-09-2005, 02:08 PM
Sad but true, .....still. Although this is really what is the top of what is possible........for that cheap price.

Well I turned over the issue in some other way :
have many challengers here that do crappy things
by using only MAPS, MAPS, MAPS !
They don't do any efforts on the meshe and try to make
believe there is a "realistic" picture because they use photo mapping.
The fact is that it's not realistic at all and especially
photo mapping shows hundred of useless details that make
you forget the PROJECT.

I reply in the opposite sense :
- NO MAPS
- SIMPLE but CLEAN MODELS
- and FULL RADIOSITY FOR EVERYBODY !

until now I did not meet a client that does not prefer this when
they see the result. The images are nicer and more understandable
because not full of stupid details.

wacom
01-09-2005, 06:46 PM
Don't forget that LW 8.2 might be able to speed up render times by as much as twice (or more with the hacks that will follow) thanks to the new AA choices.

Maxwell (www.maxwellrender.com) soon.
Fprime (worley.com)
Messiah (http://www.projectmessiah.com/)
And you "could" buy XSI foundation just to render in if you wanted Mental Ray...

Messiah is said to intergrate well with LW...and for a good reason...

PS-
These plug-in might come in usefull and are free if you don't have them already...

http://www.flay.com/GetDetail.cfm?ID=1487
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/dpont/plugins/TreeCage_Lscript.htm

pixym
01-09-2005, 07:01 PM
Don't forget that LW 8.2 might be able to speed up render times by as much as twice (or more with the hacks that will follow) thanks to the new AA choices.

Maxwell (www.maxwellrender.com) soon.
Fprime (worley.com)
Messiah (http://www.projectmessiah.com/)
And you "could" buy XSI foundation just to render in if you wanted Mental Ray...

Messiah is said to intergrate well with LW...and for a good reason...

PS-
These plug-in might come in usefull and are free if you don't have them already...

http://www.flay.com/GetDetail.cfm?ID=1487
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/dpont/plugins/TreeCage_Lscript.htm


Does it mean you can import your 3D LW layout file into XSI?

JML
01-09-2005, 10:05 PM
Thank you wacom and everybody else for the infos.

anieves
01-10-2005, 08:50 AM
hey lasco your signature gave me a good laugh! :D

wacom
01-10-2005, 10:29 AM
Does it mean you can import your 3D LW layout file into XSI?

Well...no...

but it is a cheap way to get XSI foundation if you're wanting to use MR. Plus XSI is still the only program that is tight with MR (it's the default). From what I can SEE the MR renderer is powerful...but most humans still can't get the quality out of it that the average joe can from VRay or LW. MR isn't that fast when it comes to the "slower" things either (or so I'm told).

Using a shader tree for everything is powerful...but can be a pain in the *****.

As far as I know C4D and I think Messiah are the only apps you can drop you LW scene into and get something to work. We'll have to see what Maxwell will do...but I'm guessing you'll have to adjust a lot of stuff since it's "...based on real world blah blah blah...".

If 8.2 just has faster AA I think it's easy to see that LW radiosity renders in with low Ray counts will finally be usable and render as fast or dare I say MUCH faster than the current Fprime...then again FPrime is getting an update too...

pixym
01-10-2005, 10:33 AM
THX Wacom for the explanations ;)

JML
01-10-2005, 02:48 PM
does HD instance works with 8.0.1 ?
is it stable ?
the web site says it's slower than LW, did it save time you a lot of time on your animation ? (trick)

thanks

JML
01-11-2005, 08:29 AM
I tried the demo of HDinstance and it seems that it's freezing LW when
I apply a UV texture to the transparency channel..
(otherwise it works great)

(I have a tree which use UV map in the color and transparency channel)
(I need the UV in the transparency to cut the shape of the leaf..)

does it happen to you too ?

pixym
01-11-2005, 08:33 AM
(I have a tree which use UV map in the color and transparency channel)
(I need the UV in the transparency to cut the shape of the leaf..)

does it happen to you too ?

Hi JML

Do not use transparency channel to cut shape of your leaf!
Use clip map instead because it is far quicker!

JML
01-11-2005, 08:41 AM
THANK YOU ! :)

I knew clip map was faster than transparency, but I did not know you could clip something with a UVmap...
(it's pretty much 3 time faster using the UV clipping method, thank you)

you have HD instance pixym too ? I tried the demo, it's pretty good..

pixym
01-11-2005, 08:47 AM
THANK YOU ! :)

I knew clip map was faster than transparency, but I did not know you could clip something with a UVmap...
(it's pretty much 3 time faster using the UV clipping method, thank you)

you have HD instance pixym too ? I tried the demo, it's pretty good..

I do not have HD instance but I seriously consider buying it... because of the big amount of trees in my architectural scenes.

JML
01-11-2005, 12:03 PM
we just got it, I did a test, very very impressive...

I copied 2836 trees, each with 90 448 polys , total of 258 319 488 polys :)
first, it rendered without lots of ram, and it took only 2 to 5 minute (on a P4 3ghz)
(depending on how close you get to all those trees)

really good

pixym
01-11-2005, 12:43 PM
JML,

Thanks your sharing.
I have downloaded the demo and try to do a grass scene following the tutorial and the manual, but unfortunetly when rendering I do not see anything :(

I have tryed the demo with XP Pro SP2 on LW 8.0.1 and 7.5c...
:eek:

JML
01-11-2005, 01:49 PM
I had the same problem , it's normal,
somewhere on the website, it says that it will only clone 1024 times the object
at resolutions equal or less than 320*240, and it will only clone 8 for 640*480 i think...
It's because it's the demo, in the full version, it works fine

also you need to go in the volumetric panel and add "hd_instance" plugin..
it won't render unless this is on..

pixym
01-11-2005, 01:51 PM
OK I have seen that

Are really sure it shows all the clones. I do not want to buy some thing who irritates me :(

lasco
01-11-2005, 01:59 PM
THANK YOU ! :)

I knew clip map was faster than transparency, but I did not know you could clip something with a UVmap...
(it's pretty much 3 time faster using the UV clipping method, thank you)


Well as Pixym forgot it I'll add this one :
Always UNCHECK "Pixel Blending" and "Texture Antialiasing" in the
texture editor window for clip mapping !!!!
If you let them you'll have big, big troubles with the rendering
of your trees. Care : those issues don't happen every time so
don't believe it's ok if one rendering is ok, else you'll cry some day.
(don't forget also that these settings are not available in
the Spreadsheet Manager window, which means I had myself
once to uncheck all of them for all my trees - hundreds of them -
one by one !)

lasco
01-11-2005, 02:03 PM
Are really sure it shaows all the clones. I do not want to buy some thing who irritates me :(

Nope,
shadows must be painted in photoshop and mapped on your model.



:D :D :D :D

pixym
01-11-2005, 02:07 PM
Nope,
shadows must be painted in photoshop and mapped on your model.
:D :D :D :D

OUPS,

Lasco you had to read:
"Are really sure it shows all the clones. I do not want to buy some thing who irritates me :("

it is not a shadows issues...

thx for adding the "Always UNCHECK "Pixel Blending" and "Texture Antialiasing" in the texture editor window for clip mapping !!!!"

JML
01-11-2005, 03:13 PM
it seem to work well..
I did a few test, with just 10 of them and then 250, worked fine, all clones showed up..

JML
01-11-2005, 04:22 PM
I found out that you can't use area lights with HD_instance..
it will freeze LW...
ouch..

pixym
01-11-2005, 04:24 PM
JML,

Thanks for the experience sharing.
It is good to know it though I use area light only in interior scenes

JML
01-11-2005, 05:42 PM
I saw on their forum that it used to work with area lights in LW8 but not 8.0.1
another thing is that the base object can't have any transparency..
hopefully , it will be fixed soon..

and a important thing (which is on their web site) is that HD instance is slower
than regular LW, so if you use it just to put 10-15 trees, it may be better to stay
with native LW, but for more or a lot more it's faster with HD_instance

lunarcamel
01-12-2005, 11:12 AM
Lunarcamel,

Can we see some movie extracts of these library?

Ok - here's a very quick test I did in about 30 minutes using some generic mocap. Basically it's a funny walk that blends into a standing position, stops, and then hurries along.

Very simple to make and more importantly is incredibly easy to edit and apply the motion to multiple characters. If I get some more time I'll actually load up a more realistic walk cycle and quickly populate a scene.


http://www.kristiancarey.com/movies/Walk01_QT.mov

pixym
01-12-2005, 11:22 AM
Thanks LunarCamel
Have you got a realistic walk to show us?

lunarcamel
01-12-2005, 11:27 AM
As soon as I free up I'll do a realistic test :rolleyes:

I'll start a thread in the Arch Viz. area when its up.

pixym
01-12-2005, 11:29 AM
Thank you very much

lasco
01-12-2005, 04:14 PM
Well this seems good lunarcamel, except the way the
guy walks which looks too un-natural…

Something I did not understand :
it's motion captured but the 3d model seems
quite realistic, where did you get it ?

lunarcamel
01-12-2005, 04:29 PM
Like I said it's a funny walk. :)

I'm working on another test with a more realistic walk now - had to pull some mocap off a backup since I'm not currently doing a viz job - and I'm not allowed to show any previous work.

It's an Axyz-design model. The most powerful feature of this method is being able to mix motions together and apply them to any character in your library. The only rigging that needs to be done is taking the same stock skeleton and applying your weight maps - then you can easily add any motion. Plus you can interactively adjust the motion - something I haven't seen in any other app.

::rendered via Fprime - 2 bounces. ::

pixym
01-12-2005, 04:32 PM
Very good method Lunar ;)

lunarcamel
01-12-2005, 04:57 PM
Ok moving this subject over to the Viz section ;)

Slawek
01-13-2005, 10:23 AM
http://www.kraytracing.com/image.php?dir=screenshots&file=lw_plugin_start.PNG

The new year 2005 has brought many changes to Kray. A new commercial version 1.5 has been released. A new interface for LightWave offers its users a fast global illumination rendering engine

pixym
01-13-2005, 10:35 AM
I hope it is not a joke!
It is too nice to be real

ANOTHER RENDER ENGINE v1.5 for LW
I have never heard about it

trick
01-13-2005, 10:45 AM
I hope it is not a joke!...

I was also wondering about the ease this was announced. Even if it's slower then LW's radiosity, the fact of a renderer for LW itself would be a revolution :D Just look at FPrime. I would have made a kick*** presentation with all the bells and whistles without any possible gaps, people could wonder about...

pixym
01-13-2005, 11:02 AM
Interface video here:
http://www.kraytracing.com/lightwave/video_gi1.avi

JML
01-13-2005, 12:24 PM
that looks interesting..
I wonder how fast it is ...
the pictures on their gallery looks pretty good..

Exper
01-13-2005, 12:49 PM
Take a look here: http://www.kraytracing.com/index.php?subpage=4&info=1

pixym
01-13-2005, 12:51 PM
I am waiting for the demo version to play with it ;)

ufo3d
01-13-2005, 12:54 PM
The website is not found (404) :confused:

3DBob
01-13-2005, 02:52 PM
Anyone notice it was running in 7.5c?