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Ade
04-13-2003, 12:54 PM
I hear these have no multi thread support -
Sky tracer 2
Sas lite
Hypervoxels...


Anymore plugs that dont use DP support?
Do these support SMP on the pc side?

cremegg
04-13-2003, 01:57 PM
For gods sack its not a 'list' of things that need SMP support the whole bloody thing needs SMP support. Playing an animation back in layout wont even use 100% of one CPU.

This is the biggest problem with Mac software development, even those who claim to offer SMP support seem to put a half hearted effort in.

Johnny
04-13-2003, 04:12 PM
that sounds like a pretty good call, cremegg...it feels like many developers do just enough to make their software *run* on Mac..just enough to be able to sell the mac version.

on one hand, it's nice to be able to run such a stellar application as LW..on the other hand, it's almost like being a second-class citizen.

I understand that it's about money in versus money out, and Mac users are a small percentage..

Here's hoping the 970 will help to change that.

J

Ade
04-13-2003, 09:20 PM
If im, not mistaken the mac LW sold more than pc LW..

Johnny
04-13-2003, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by Ade
If im, not mistaken the mac LW sold more than pc LW..

huh!

that's both encouraging AND confusing..

cremegg
04-14-2003, 05:35 AM
Originally posted by Ade
If im, not mistaken the mac LW sold more than pc LW..

Then how comes at the majority of CG forums there are a handfull of Mac users and the rest are all x86 faithfulls :rolleyes: .

Mac is the lesser market all round, even Adobe seems to want to push Photoshop towards x86, and the only way its going to change is if Developers now begin to write fully SMP aware software. Mac CPUs may clock slower but our advantage is running Dual CPUs (similar to AMD) and Mac OS X but its hard to see the advantage when the software you use just uses one CPU. Even Apple Finder in Mac OS X seems pretty poor at SMP, wonder if the fact its written in Carbon could have something to do with that?

Ade
04-14-2003, 05:41 AM
Dont shoot the messanger, newtek stated that about mac sales...I see alot of mac users on boards, the mac section is full of LW users as well as cgtalk.com.

PC ppl use 3ds more because of its history of gaming.

cremegg
04-14-2003, 05:57 AM
Sorry Ade wasn't shooting you just I don't seem to see that many Mac LW users at CGTalk.

Well if that is truly the case regarding Mac sales lets hope that since OS X is now 2 years old the next release of LW will be written in a way that fully compliments its capabilities.

One question I do ask my self. We have seen the Luxology team all using various Powerbooks, from the Pismo, original G4 and the newer models and Newtek tests on a G4 400Mhz. If you're developing Software to fully compliment an OS which was designed for Dual Processors don't you think a little investment in some newer hardware would be appropriate?

I truly hope LW 8 is the re write I really want to see. LW 6 was an early port using Carbon so you can forgive that for not being SMP aware, LW 7 was close to the birth of OS X so again I can sort of forgive it but if LW 8 is another cheap narsty port I may refuse to hand over my upgrade fee although that in itself will hurt the Mac platform more than anything else.

theosmekhanes
04-14-2003, 12:00 PM
Ade,

Most Mac 3D people come from other creative professions, like Video/ film, Graphic Design, and Fine Art. The NT and CG Forums are full of 3D only hobbyists and wannabes.

If you want to find the Mac users, go to Mac related Forums, We talk about LW there as a piece in the workflow puzzle, not the end all be all of apps.

I too remember the news from NT that Mac versions out sold the PC for the last release.

The blame for LWs poor Mac record lies squarely on NTs shoulders. They could have pursued a closer relationship with Apple developer channels, and been more forthcoming with their strategies.

I they are working with Apple to resolve an API problem, they should tell us! If they don't have the staff or know how to make a first class Mac app, fix it!

Stop making excuses and deliver, NewTek.

My money is waiting. Restore my confidence and you can have it.

mlinde
04-14-2003, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by theosmekhanes
The NT and CG Forums are full of 3D only hobbyists and wannabes.
Well, I'm not sure if I should be insulted or not. I'm not a wannabe, I'm not a hobbyist, but I am an activist, and I don't go to mac only forums anymore because most of what I got there was noise, not information. I'm not saying that this place is the great library of Alexandria, but at least here if I have a question about functionality there's a chance that someone who's been using Lightwave a lot longer than me could help. The attitude that a mac-only forum is the only useful forum is about as intelligent as the attitude that every person in the world wants to live in the United States. Others have ideas to offer, often those ideas are more useful because they come from outside your narrow world view.
Hmm. I decided I'm insulted.

cremegg
04-14-2003, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by theosmekhanes
The NT and CG Forums are full of 3D only hobbyists and wannabes.

I'm insulted. I use LW for global advertising projects. I suggest you edit your post or watch what you type in the future.

toby
04-14-2003, 05:02 PM
I can't BELIEVE how critical you guys are.

NO application is perfect, but LW is CRAP because it's not perfect either? It's the best 3D app on the mac, uses both processors at full throttle more often than Adobe software and even Quicktime, but they need to "get off their asses" ?

LW 6.5 was COCOA, NOT Carbon, not a port, and was one of the first apps to do so, it WAS MP aware, and OSX was still a PROTOTYPE. And you "forgive" them. So gracious of you.

"Playing an animation back in layout wont even use 100% of one CPU."
That's either Quicktime or your Graphics card (depending on what playback you're talking about), more CPU usage would NOT make it play better. Learn what you're talking about before you start slinging mud.

"I (know) they are working with Apple to resolve an API problem, they should tell us! If they don't have the staff or know how to make a first class Mac app, fix it!"

Why should they tell you about every little problem? WHY? Do you own 51% of their shares? What "first class app" are you comparing it to? What 3D program is better on the Mac? Why don't you try a real piece of junk like Electric Image before crying that your CPU monitor isn't maxed out.

toby
04-14-2003, 05:11 PM
btw - Hypervoxels are multi -threaded.

Beamtracer
04-14-2003, 05:19 PM
First, don't confuse multithreading (performing more than one task at a time) with multiprocessing (splitting tasks between 2 or more processors for greater speed).

All Lightwave versions on OS X so far have been Carbon, not Cocoa. This means it retains quite a lot of its OS9 code. Maya is also Carbon... strangely, as it never had an OS9 version.

When LW7 was released, Newtek reported that they sold more Mac versions than Windows ones. There has not been an update on these figures, which may or may not still hold true. However, there are twice as many Mac users on this forum than Windows users.

Lightwave was one of the first ever applications to run on Mac OS X. Newtek did a good job of getting LW6 out quickly. Other larger companies took many more years before they had anything to show on OS X. Not many people noticed, but Lightwave just passed its 3rd anniversary of running on OS X. Three years on OSX, and companies like Quark still have nothing to show.

cremegg
04-14-2003, 05:37 PM
I'm not the one who needs to learn what I'm talking about clearly. Considering I can identify a Carbon and Cocoa application and am basing all my comments on alot of research and technical knowledge.

Also I am not complaining about LW it is indeed the best 3D application on the Mac but that doesn't mean I don't think theres alot of room for performance improvements and that I shouldn't voice my opinion as a long paying customer. To date the performance can be explained by the quickness of the port to OS X, which I can only commend Newtek for, but I do think its about time that alot of re writing was done with a move away from Carbon and OS 9 code.

robewil
04-14-2003, 05:59 PM
However, there are twice as many Mac users on this forum than Windows users.

Beam, where did you get this "fact"?

Johnny
04-14-2003, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by toby
LW 6.5 was COCOA, NOT Carbon, not a port, and was one of the first apps to do so, it WAS MP aware, and OSX was still a PROTOTYPE. And you "forgive" them. So gracious of you.

well, then...THAT tidbit sheds new light, and based on that, can we say that any troubles we have are those any app might have after 3 years on a new platform?

J

Ade
04-14-2003, 09:07 PM
I dont think next LW version will be optimised greatly for macs.. Why?
I have a feeling that cause the main mac man went to Lux, NT is taking it slowly trying to do mac code properly... 7.5b being pulled great proof.
When all 3D appz cut their prices 2 years ago something had to suffer - Cost for R&D.
And we all know windows gets first priority all the time. Luxx dispelled most rumours by telling us they are mac equipped via those photos... NT im not sure where macs stand.

Johnny
04-14-2003, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by Ade
Luxx dispelled most rumours by telling us they are mac equipped via those photos... NT im not sure where macs stand.

Hmm...not sure there's enough data to say..

on the one hand, you're right in that Windows gets priority. on the other hand, if NewTek didn't want to mess with the Mac platform at all, they could have saved a lot of money on Maalox by just not making LW for Mac at all. My guess is that they saw profit potential, not just to make us all happy.

Last time I called tech support about 2 weeks ago, I got Gil, who was at that time on the same Mac I use: a Dual 450 with stock rage card. He also butts up against similar limitations as I do.

I would guess that NT would keep on with Mac unless sales vanished. but when I was looking to migrate from another 3D app last year, I needed to feel confident about how I'd spend my $1500, and no other app approached LW quality..maybe others are reaching the same conclusions?

J

eblu
04-15-2003, 09:47 AM
the cocoa vs. carbon "discussion" is pointless.

OpenGL And Quicktime are both a part of Carbon. This is why LW and Maya are Carbon programs. They both rely on OpenGL for Most of thier codebase.

I personally believe that Newtek has a terribly small LW Mac dev team, and that they would benefit from all the goodies/freebies in cocoa (especially with regards to screamernet), but I dont see where either Carbon or Cocoa could possibly be a second-class citizen, speedwise.

as for blaming the quality of LW on Apple because of the changes to Mac os X.... hogwash. 6.5 was solid (for a quick port). 7.5b is Not (even for a quick port). Newtek is not releasing quality product, they have acknowleged it, and pulled the recent update.
Since i have invested my money in LW, I am entitled to any critical opinions that i might develop. Heres one now:
LW is caught in a downward spiral, of feature bloat, and short dev cycles. This promotes bugs, and leaves very little time to fix Major UI problems, Bugs, and bottlenecks. I am less worried by the loss of the luxology people, than i am of the fact that i reported rendering bugs two years ago, and they were confirmed, but never fixed. The rendering engine is the only thing keeping LW where it is, if they continue to let that go to pot, then my investment in LW was not such a hot idea.

Luxology... was (mostly) the california Lightwave team (the guys who made many of the things we love and take for granted in LW as well as the Mac port), whatever they are doing now, it is not lightwave. They were offered the option of moving to texas, they said no. End of commitment to Newtek.

Chazz
04-15-2003, 01:54 PM
Yeah...this Carbon vs. Cocoa argument never gets anyone anywhere. Maya was written with Carbon because building an app with Carbon is easier for an app written in C++. This doesn't make it an inferior app because of that, and it also means that most cross-platform apps are going to be Carbon as well. That doesn't make them worse than Cocoa apps. (and Apple has made some great strides with the Carbon APIs)

Lightwave 7.5 is a very stable app for OSX...as much so as it is in Windows. It may not take the most advantage of dual processors, but then neither does the PC version...they're identical.

Let's hope that Luxology *does* have some role in developing some future Lightwave because Brad Peebler in particular is a big proponent of that Mac platform.

wavk
08-17-2006, 07:08 AM
sorry, wrong thread.

Chilton
08-17-2006, 07:50 AM
What a difference time makes.

"The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there" - L.P. Hartley

I'll take a picture of my desk later today, lest anyone suspect that the NewTek of today is not serious about the Macintosh platform.

-Chilton