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View Full Version : please dont forget: Modeler Polygon Selection Bug



faulknermano
01-01-2005, 10:44 PM
this bug is driving me ultra-nuts. it's so malicious, actually: it has ruined alot of models.

(for those not aware: the poly selection bug is when a polygon outside your current view is selected along with your intended selection. basically, when you select a poly, another poly somewhere in your model gets selected as well. subsequent operations such as DELETE causes extreme stress afterwards.)


btw: is this bug software related, or hardware related (e.g. drivers, openGL)?

faulknermano
01-03-2005, 06:37 AM
i dont mean to go off like a roll, but am i the only one experiencing this manevolent bug?? :eek:

Karmacop
01-03-2005, 08:05 AM
I've only had it a few times, and only when I've been zoomed in very close to a model. I presume it was my fault :confused:

Kvaalen
01-03-2005, 08:37 AM
It has happened to me before, but seems to happen much less often for me than for most people. This makes me think it could be a hardware problem... or... maybe I just don't have as much time for modeling as others do. :)

PerryDS
01-03-2005, 02:24 PM
I have had this problem as well, but caught it before I did any damage. Can't see it being a hardware issue, more dependant on the structure of you model and the cross-over of UVs.

faulknermano
01-03-2005, 06:24 PM
I have had this problem as well, but caught it before I did any damage. Can't see it being a hardware issue, more dependant on the structure of you model and the cross-over of UVs.

wel, fwiw, UVs (if we're talking about texmaps) arent probably the problem, since i have none in my models when it happens.

i must have bad luck this happens to me ALOT. well, let's say in a five hours of modelling, it happens twice or thrice. that's alot for me, because i model like crazy, meaning i model rather fast, and if i dont pick up the error, i would have made many changes by then.

ooh boy. this really is :mad:

ColinCohen
01-03-2005, 06:53 PM
Funny, this happened to me often in 7.5; and I never knew why. But I can't recall it ever happening to me in 8.

Perhaps I'm just working differently.

dhath45
01-03-2005, 08:45 PM
It happend to me all the time when I was using LightWave 8. Very frustrating!

faulknermano
01-04-2005, 12:22 AM
btw, folks, i'm using 8.0.1.


Funny, this happened to me often in 7.5; and I never knew why. But I can't recall it ever happening to me in 8.

Perhaps I'm just working differently.

weird enough: it happens more for me in 8 than in 7.5. but i cant make a statistic. :)

the reason why i think it's opengl related is because some people seem to have no problems with it. i'm not at familiar with "how it works", but selecting on the viewports does require some interfacing with opengl to tell lightwave what to select, right? maybe somethings funky there.

(my drivers are the newtek-certified ones in nvidia. i could switch to the older ones.... hmm)

Karmacop
01-04-2005, 06:52 AM
Well at what scale are your objects? And how zoomed in are you? And are you inside an object (if that makes sense)? I think the problem is open gl isn't working at high enough precision sometimes, and so selects extra polys. As I've said, this only happens to me when I'm in really close to objects, so close that I'm slipping in an out of the model.

faulknermano
01-04-2005, 07:49 AM
Well at what scale are your objects? And how zoomed in are you? And are you inside an object (if that makes sense)? I think the problem is open gl isn't working at high enough precision sometimes, and so selects extra polys. As I've said, this only happens to me when I'm in really close to objects, so close that I'm slipping in an out of the model.


scale of object is real-world size. one recent model is of a realistic human, 2 meters high.

sometimes i'm zoomed in real close. but the majority of the time it's not that close. HOWEVER, the common thread is that the errantly selected polygons are always out of current perspective view when it happens, and that those extra selections dont seem to be in any way in the proximity of the intended selection. it has never happened to me that an errant selection occured in the viewport. i'd always have to zoom out to find out if i selected a bad one. i hit `a` on ocassion to ascertain this.

i cannot confirm if this happens in orthographic views though.

PerryDS
01-04-2005, 09:09 AM
I suspect it's just a bug, because if I select polys in the UV map view, LW8 does select polys outside of that area. For me, it's been only happening in 8. Didn't have that happen in 7.5. There doesn't appear to be any rhyme or reason to the alternately selected polygons.

faulknermano
01-04-2005, 06:42 PM
I suspect it's just a bug, because if I select polys in the UV map view, LW8 does select polys outside of that area.

thanks for letting it be known: i've never experienced this bug on the UV map view. could it possible that the orthographic views are like this too? though i havent experienced it, possibly because i model the majority of the time in perspective.

oh, if only we knew why... :confused:

Karmacop
01-05-2005, 08:36 AM
I was using Lightwave on my brother's computer today and noticed this happened a lot more often ... that is I actually noticed it happened regularly, while on my computer it's only happened once or twice. My brother has a very similar computer, the only difference being that he's on an ati card and I have an nvidia card. Interesting .. :confused:

mouse_art
01-05-2005, 10:41 AM
Sometimes i have this Problem too, but not often, it could be HW problem maybe(i'm just speculating) because i have this issue in XSI too(Raycast select), but much often as in LightWave.

faulknermano
01-05-2005, 11:39 AM
My brother has a very similar computer, the only difference being that he's on an ati card and I have an nvidia card. Interesting .. :confused:

interesting indeed, especially since i use nvidia. :confused: this all started, if i'm not mistaken in 7.x. 6.5 was okay.

Karmacop
01-06-2005, 01:07 AM
Well I''ve been through several sets of drivers, and have gone from a geforce 2mx to a geforce 4 Ti 4800 and have never had this problem. My brother has an ATI 9600 but I don't know if drivers make a difference as I only had a look yesterday.

Maybe everyone could post their video card/drivers for their system and if they've had any trouble, a little trouble, or no trouble?

faulknermano
01-06-2005, 01:47 AM
Maybe everyone could post their video card/drivers for their system and if they've had any trouble, a little trouble, or no trouble?

at home:

WinFast A340 Ultra (256MB) AGP 4x
GeForce FX 5200
6.14.10.5303

- relatively frequent occurences: 2 to 3 times in five hours. sometimes a bit more


at work:

- post specs when i get there later. :)

Karmacop
01-06-2005, 02:59 AM
asus geforce 4 ti se (128 MB)
6.14.10.6693

- happens maybe once a month if that, and only when zoomed in tight.

faulknermano
01-06-2005, 05:13 AM
at work:

NVIDIA Quadro4 550 XGL
64MB AGP 4x
6.14.10.6681

i can actually reproduce this 100% of the time. it's easy. i've got a frog model here about 1622 polys. regardless if it's subpatched or in straight poly just select a polygon and Shift+A to zoom in on it and then dolly in just a bit more. then select it by clicking and dragging (as if you're trying to select multiple polys). 20-40% of the time i would see in the Sel box (e.g. lower left) multiple selections. there was a time when i actually zoomed in and selected the polys on the other side. not actually the bug.

but now i know it happens *very reliably*.


(going to try this at home tom seeing that i have older drivers there).

Karmacop
01-06-2005, 06:16 AM
I find it hard to reproduce, i can get it to work but it seems like special conditions. Again, it's when I'm zoomed in very close to some polygons, and i don't know if it helps that I'm selecting polygons at a very acute angle, but when I do this it selects polys on the opposite side of the object. There doesn't seem to be any pattern to this extra selection though.

So does this ever happen to you when you're zoomed out far from an object?

faulknermano
01-06-2005, 06:40 AM
I find it hard to reproduce, i can get it to work but it seems like special conditions. Again, it's when I'm zoomed in very close to some polygons, and i don't know if it helps that I'm selecting polygons at a very acute angle, but when I do this it selects polys on the opposite side of the object. There doesn't seem to be any pattern to this extra selection though.

So does this ever happen to you when you're zoomed out far from an object?


in fact, no.

your selecting at an acute angle gave me an idea.

i made a box with 10x10x10 segments. i selected the centermost poly of one of the side, Shift+A. no need to zoom further. then i noticed two things:

1.) when i'm selecting at an acute angle, when my angle of sight is more pendicular to the polys normal directin than it is parallel, the bug exhibits itself MUCH more frequently. i select the polygon, and while the button is held down, i move the cursor around the area of the polygon, like tracking my cursor around, with the button depressed. the Sel indicator starts counting up. i get 9 selections sometimes.

2.) when my view is looking down upon the polygon the bug does not happen AT ALL. no matter how close i get, the bug wont exhibit.

so, it seems that the farther you get, and the less angle to poly normal, the less, the less chance of the bug happening.

Karmacop
01-06-2005, 07:28 AM
Ok, I think this may be what is happening; the clipping plane is either different to the visual one, or selection is worked out differently.

I always find that when it selects extra polys, it's always at a similar direction to the ones I want to select. So, from this I think the selection is clipping out the polygons we can see, and selecting the polygons it thinks we can see. This may be because visual clipping is linked to scale, while selection clipping is not, or they are at least not working well together.

faulknermano
01-06-2005, 08:20 AM
Ok, I think this may be what is happening; the clipping plane is either different to the visual one, or selection is worked out differently.

I always find that when it selects extra polys, it's always at a similar direction to the ones I want to select.

similar direction: do you mean like on the other side of the polygon? if so, i have had this sometimes. but the majority of the time, the errant polys are not anywhere in the line of sight. it's like totally out of the way.

PerryDS
01-06-2005, 09:32 AM
There is a randomness afoot. When selecting polys in the perspective view up close, at times I get a selection of randomnly unconnected polys outside the visible region. This never happened with 7.5, so I suspect it's a new undocumented feature. Hopefully it will be addressed in the 8.2 release.

It's all bugs...some crunchy and some chewy. Just have to watch your appetite or you might ingest something that doesn't quite agree with you.

Karmacop
01-06-2005, 05:09 PM
Hmm ... my extra polygons always seem to be in the line of sight ... I'll have to check this some more.

faulknermano
01-07-2005, 09:01 AM
tried it using home system. exactly the same thing i found at my setup at work.

hesido
01-08-2005, 06:59 AM
I got this happening to me LOTS while modeling Hayrettin. Even though I copy the model to a new layer with each little bit of change, it would be that sometimes the bug occured some "4 layers" ago going unnotticed so I simply could not afford to lose 4 layers of changes, so I cut the bad part and replace it with the correct one merging points. Frustrating to say the least, when you find out you were working on the hand and you realize some irrelevant polygons were beveled, extruded, and spinned on the foot.

I use ati, catalyst 4.12, radeon9600pro.

Librarian
01-08-2005, 07:58 AM
I can confirm the problems.
If I zoom in on a character´s head and select a polygon at a specific angle, polygons at the foot or the arms get selected.
Although the accidentally selected polygons are neither in the same view pane or raycast direction, nor anywhere near or behind the selected one. Strange behavior.
Best solution for me was to temporarely hide parts of the model.

Matt
01-10-2005, 09:47 AM
Yep, this has happened to me (check below) I was using LW 7.5d at the time so it's not a LW 8.01 issue.

AVT
01-21-2005, 10:09 PM
Oh my... I have this problem too in LW8.2
Well, looks like LW8.2 has more new bugs than new features.

Limbus
01-22-2005, 03:27 AM
i dont mean to go off like a roll, but am i the only one experiencing this manevolent bug?? :eek:

I have that problem too.

Babumbol
07-08-2005, 02:03 AM
Er.. wait... this Bug is officially known since half a year and hasn't been adressed yet? Well, are there any infos or hints about when this bug - and it certainly is a bug - will be fixed?
8~

the_machine512
10-19-2005, 06:46 PM
I'm having this problem too in LW 8.3... Is it fixed in 8.5?

mkiii
10-19-2005, 07:33 PM
No. Still not fixed in 8.5

Been around a long time now - and it bugs me constantly.

hesido
10-20-2005, 02:44 AM
There are some zoom and viewport angle combinations that always results in the selecting of some certain extra polygons, I realized, so it is not exactly random, I believe.

erikals
10-21-2005, 04:52 PM
yes, please fix. This is one annoying for sure.
I've screwed up lot of models this way. http://erikalstad.com/smiley/Notsatisfied.gif

Lewis
10-22-2005, 07:50 AM
This bug is reporeted already (long time ago) and sadly NO it's not fixed in Lw 8.5 either. This is most iritationg BUG i EVER saw in lightwave , atleast for me :(. I'm working each day in modeler (2-15 hours sometime) and i can reproduce this bug ALWAYS :(. It's not drivers/hardware issue 'coz i tested it on 3 different machines and on 8-9 Lw versions (from Lw 7.5, b, c, 8.0, 8.0.1, 8.2, 8.2.1, 8.3 and 8.5) and it's still there. Most prblematic is when you are deleting polys (as already noted) but it's also makes big issues if you are using Bevel, Cut or Bandsaw and when you zoom to fit all you have surprise that your model is cut all over place while you were cuting only few polys in zoomed area :(.

This really needs to be addressed ASAP 'coz it slowdown workflow drastically (I constantlly need to check how many polys I selected (actually Lw did it on his own) and need to zoom out to deselect randomlly selected ones before I activate cut/bandsaw/bevel tool.

cheers

Exception
10-25-2005, 11:53 AM
Hear Hear. Reported this bug back at LW 8.0.1, but no fix yet. Reported it again today, hope they do something before [9] comes out.

laddehlingerjr
03-15-2006, 06:04 PM
You can work around this bug most of the time by reducing the perspective amount in your display settings. I've noticed that when Modeler's display settings are set to the default perspective amount, the bug rears its ugly head and bites you, hard.

When Modeler is set to practically no "perspective" - in short, a pseudo-isometric-perspective - then the bug's harmfulness is reduced significantly.

And I reported this bug to Newtek back at version 6.0. If it were a different company that was slavishly responsive, one would believe that the problem is unfixable due to Open GL problems.

But since the response to my report was similar to that of tossing a gnat into the event horizon of an elephantine black hole (i.e., no response at all), I have no idea whether to blame the Open GL standards, laziness, elitism (no one in a big Hollyweird studio complained about it), or just straight out incompetence.

Sam_Horton
03-15-2006, 08:38 PM
This has happened to me several times today, and in the past it has ruined some models beyond what undo can fix. I'm definitely going to give the perspective adjustment a go.

Thanks for the tip!

Babumbol
03-16-2006, 02:12 AM
@laddehlingerjr
Thanks for the tipp. I'll give it a try!

Lewis
03-16-2006, 02:58 AM
Anyone from NT to confirm is this BUG FIXED in LW9 ???

erikals
03-16-2006, 03:42 AM
laddehlingerjr, thanks for the tip.
I haven't heard of other appz having this problem though, so I don't think it is OpenGL that causes it..

Stooch
03-16-2006, 12:51 PM
confirmed. i hate this bug too..

and its a bug btw, not a feature request.

Lewis
03-16-2006, 01:22 PM
confirmed. i hate this bug too..

and its a bug btw, not a feature request.

Yeah you are right this is BUG and not Feature requaest but since it's been many LW versions passed and this BUG is still there maybe it's FEATURE by now ;). SOoit would be nice to change this "feature" to work better ;).

J/K of course ;).

toonafish
03-16-2006, 04:38 PM
I emailed an object and a short list with some steps to repeat the bug every time to Newtek some time ago and they seem to be working on it.

While experimenting with several configs to find out when the bug appeared and when not I found out that it has something to do with all views beeing set to independent center, zoom and visibility.

With the default 4 view setup zooming in really close in the perpective view and not in the other views made the bug worse and when I recall correctly it did not happen when the perspective view ( the view I made the selections in ) was in textured view or textured wire mode.

This has been one of the reasons Modeler is no longer my main modeling app, but I hope this helps to ease the pain untill it's fixed.

ercaxus
03-16-2006, 06:53 PM
I think it's in vertex paint too. It paints all over the model sometimes and slighly rotating the view makes the bug disappear. It's much more annoying in modeler though.

Matt
03-17-2006, 09:53 AM
If this bug is STILL in LW9 then I'm sorry NT, I won't be happy!

Lewis
03-17-2006, 03:28 PM
If this bug is STILL in LW9 then I'm sorry NT, I won't be happy!

Sad but true :(. I also hope very much that it will be DEAD Bug finally after few years, it's about time ;).

Matt
03-18-2006, 08:16 AM
Well Jay Roth did say something about crushing a lot of long standing bugs in LW9 so here's hoping ...

adrencg
03-21-2006, 07:35 PM
i dont mean to go off like a roll, but am i the only one experiencing this manevolent bug?? :eek:

This bug just about totally changed the way I worked, and not in a good way. One project in particular was a complex network of nerves and veins on a prostate and bladder. I lost probably DAYS of work if count up all of the time I spent going back to fix errors caused by this bug. I ended up making a morph of a particular stage of the model when I was happy with it. then, if somewhere down the line, I find some detailed area of the model all jacked up, I just applied the morph to that part of the model and it was fixed...sometimes. It's also good to make many backups along the way, but my morph thing was kind of like a history stack.

The bug only seems to annoy on complex models. It is THE WORST, most annoying thing ever in any software I've ever used. I'll be pretty angry if I encounter this bug again after version 9. Although, there will just be new bug to deal with.

Mike

Lamont
03-30-2006, 02:07 PM
My friend gets this bug in XSI too... he thinks it's a hardware issue (videocard drivers/settings). I do to sometimes because it happens in UnrealEd too.

hesido
03-30-2006, 02:48 PM
My friend gets this bug in XSI too... he thinks it's a hardware issue (videocard drivers/settings). I do to sometimes because it happens in UnrealEd too.

This may be a tough nut to crack indeed. This is one problem that causes the most loss of hair tho.

If it is a hardware / vendor-driver combo problem, I wouldn't be able to come up with a solution without making it slow to crawl. Still sharing my not so important idea:
1-) Run a low process non-video accelerated function that will make a list of truly viewable polygons everytime the user makes a viewport change. Flag the ones viewable and allow selection only on those polys.
2-) Since this may slow things down, only run this when the user zooms in to a pre-determined amount to lessen the amount of polygon numbers that has to be flagged, because much of the bug happens when working on a detailed object and zooming in a particular place, on the zoomed out occasions where mis-selection is visible the problem is not that great anyway.
3-) If this is too slow still, but we still need to make sure we run in *safe select mode* a small visual clue might be given after the polygons are flagged after a viewport change. Before flagging if the user makes a selection, it is not guaranteed to be safe :) But during flagging, the extra polygons selected could be cleared transparently from the user. (bonus idea :) )

Lewis
03-30-2006, 06:11 PM
Wierd 'coz i tested LW on 3 different GFX cards and i have that bug on ALL of them so i can't believe too much it's pure driver issue. I tested on ATI Radeon with several Catalyst driver versions and no solution - i can always reproduce it. Now i have 2 machines and one have 3Dlabs GFX card while other have Nvidia GFX card and both have this BUG (pretty easy to get it when working wiht high poly stuff) so if is driver issue then it's OpenGL problem and not driver by itself :(.

erikals
05-31-2006, 11:17 AM
Seems LW9 is the solution :)
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=388979&postcount=48

mattc
05-31-2006, 11:51 PM
Fixed, gone, dead issue ;)

M

Lewis
06-01-2006, 05:11 AM
I'd add FINALLY :)). So many hours spent on deselecting randomly selected polygons ;).