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Imageshoppe
12-31-2004, 02:44 PM
Hi all...

Just checking to see if anyone has noticed that LW8 has a bad bug with its method of handling image sequences that are fielded? LW7.5 and earlier are fine.

LW7.5 - load an image sequence that has fields, check either "upper" or "lower" to determine field order in the image editor, then the image sequence is correctly mapped when field rendering; the dominant field to the first field, the other field to the second field.

LW8.0 - the image editor choice of "upper or lower" doesn't determine field order any more, but simply WHICH of the two fields is mapped to BOTH fields of the final render, eliminating the other image field entirely.

This is wrong. Real, real wrong.

Please, please fix for 8.2. I have many clients who bring me interlaced SD and HD footage, and the work-arounds are very inconvient and time consuming.

Lightwave had always been terrific and could deal with fielded image sequences long before Max and others, it's very frustrating when something like this is broken.

Regards,

Jim Arthurs

UnCommonGrafx
12-31-2004, 03:33 PM
Now, I'm not sure if it's hosed or not, but I've spent the last 4+ months on this trying to understand what's going on.

Seems something has changed but I sure as heck can't put my finger on it.
There is a 'switch', though, in the software to make it behave correctly: double the fps and you have proper fielding. You can actually SEE it doing it's job as you scroll. {With a proper image, of course.}


I hope like all get out that some others join in this conversation as there just isn't enough info to be found on how LW wants fielded material. Institutional memory needs a poke...

Imageshoppe
12-31-2004, 03:49 PM
Okay, I see what you mean... set it to double my 29.97 rate and it will shove sequential fields to sequential frames of the render. Interesting approach, and useful, but not the correct way of handling it when you're rendering to fields and just want to be done with it. in one go.

You still have an additional step of using a compositing program to make interlaced 29.97 finals.

What the heck was wrong with the way it was handled in 7.5? It was elegant and it worked. Besides, it's now NOT backwards compatible to 7.5... that's how I found out things were hinky in 8.0... by loading up a previous 7.5 job to do a quick client re-render (that turned into not so quick a re-render).

Regards,

Jim Arthurs

jgjones
12-31-2004, 04:30 PM
Just wanted to add my two cents.... this is indeed an important function to get right. LW 7.5 did it correctly, and I can't imagine the illogical behavor of 8 to be anything but a serious bug.

Please, before 8.2 gets released, remedy this issue. Interlaced footage is a very common production component, and is no where near being obsolete!


-Jim

UnCommonGrafx
12-31-2004, 04:45 PM
So, I wasn't crazy. ... More importantly, I wasn't wrong. :cool:

So, there IS something different in the mix.

We have a correct writer for it in LWC but it may be wrong in being right...
:confused: :D

Imageshoppe
01-01-2005, 12:33 AM
There is a 'switch', though, in the software to make it behave correctly: double the fps and you have proper fielding. You can actually SEE it doing it's job as you scroll. {With a proper image, of course.}

Okay, I rolled back to 7.5 to finish the job ("Happy New Year!", well, at least that's what they're all yelling outside).

Even in 7.5, if you set your fps to 59.94 it will map one field to one frame, so this isn't new behavior, just new to me.

So the only "change" or "improvement" is the addition of a bug to LW8's field rendering with fielded image sequences.

I sent an official bug report. I hope this becomes one of the many fixes... any odds?

Jim Arthurs

jgjones
01-19-2005, 02:28 PM
Still broken in 8.2, unfortunately.

This is on the list to fix, yes??? Maybe next update?

Imageshoppe
01-19-2005, 03:20 PM
Jim, thanks for the update.

This is unfortunate. I did a formal bug report the very day I mentioned this here. Besides, it was working fine in 7.5 before the "new" guys started poking around in the code. You break it, you should fix it, or heck, maybe even make it better.

I had written an article in last quarter's HiDef magazine about using Lightwave on a 1080i virtual set project, a project that depended on proper interpreting of fielded image sequences. I also plugged Lightwave a bit in an upcoming blurb in POST mag as well.

I may not be so kind as to mention my 3D "software of choice" again in print...

Jim Arthurs

DigitalDeuce
02-18-2005, 02:20 PM
Ok -- someone help me out by sending me content.

I have followed the bugreport in trying to reproduce this bug.

Steps:
1. Create a field-rendered image sequence, with something moving fast enough in the scene to make each field distinguishable from the other.

2. Load this image-sequence, set Interlace to either "even first" or "odd first" and apply the seq to the surface of an object.

3. In Camera Properties, set Field Rendering to the same as in step #2.

4. Render. You should see that only one field of the sequence is used, unlike previous versions of LW (7.5) where each field is properly mapped to the corresponding field of the final render.

Here's what I see, and this is where I get lost.

A: If you, in the image editor set the sequence to "Interlace OFF" - you see both fields in the render. If you set this to Even First you see "only the even" and same for Odd First. Regardless of the setting for the Camera.

B: this is identical for 7.5 ( I went back to see myself )


I really need help here - Trying to get this bug fixed, but I can't for the life of me see it. What I need is content that illustrates it. I tried to create my own - but evidently, I can't reproduce this. It looks the same in the newest code as it did in 7.5

Email me privately off this forum.

Imageshoppe
02-18-2005, 02:44 PM
Ok -- someone help me out by sending me content.
I really need help here - Trying to get this bug fixed, but I can't for the life of me see it. What I need is content that illustrates it. I tried to create my own - but evidently, I can't reproduce this. It looks the same in the newest code as it did in 7.5

Email me privately off this forum.

I'll put an ftp care-package together over the weekend that will show clearly the problem... thanks for looking into it!

Regards,

Jim Arthurs

DigitalDeuce
02-18-2005, 03:00 PM
Thank you sir !!

Imageshoppe
02-20-2005, 12:04 PM
A: If you, in the image editor set the sequence to "Interlace OFF" - you see both fields in the render. If you set this to Even First you see "only the even" and same for Odd First. Regardless of the setting for the Camera.

B: this is identical for 7.5 ( I went back to see myself )

I really need help here - Trying to get this bug fixed, but I can't for the life of me see it. What I need is content that illustrates it. I tried to create my own - but evidently, I can't reproduce this. It looks the same in the newest code as it did in 7.5.


Okay, I've put a zip with a content directory/ test scene for all to try...

http://www.imageshoppe.com/ftp/LW/

Follow the README... try to render the scene first in 7.5 and then in 8.0.

Deuce, you'll clearly see the difference, PLEASE let me know one way or another if this explains it clearly enough...

Thanks,

Jim Arthurs

DigitalDeuce
02-20-2005, 12:14 PM
I have it -- and thank you -- I'll look at this and send it on unless I have questions.

Thanks again !

DigitalDeuce
02-20-2005, 12:22 PM
Very clear -- ok. Also saw that 7.5d (which I tested) is like 8 in this regard, might explain why I didn't see the difference.

Also, these are 'slightly modded' steps - but thanks for the renders, as those are the most telling.

Ok - off to the dev team !! thanks again !

Imageshoppe
02-20-2005, 12:33 PM
Thanks Deuce... it's a big deal.

Most people "poo-poo" field rendering, but with projects other than feature/tv work it's still a necessity. Also, HD has brought interlaced work back to the front, with outlets like Voom, HDNet, etc.

I do motion graphics in 1080i, and it's no longer a one-step breeze to map image sequences in LW because of this bug...

Regards,

Jim Arthurs

UnCommonGrafx
02-20-2005, 01:23 PM
Great to see you could get some worthy examples for action on this, Jim.
Thanks from those of us that will also benefit.
:p

DigitalDeuce
02-24-2005, 01:59 PM
Update

Fixed. :D


Now, I do not know when this particular release will be public -- but just wanted you to know that it has been fixed.

Imageshoppe
02-24-2005, 03:24 PM
Thanks!!! Great news...

Jim Arthurs

view3d
02-26-2005, 12:30 AM
Update

Fixed. :D


Now, I do not know when this particular release will be public -- but just wanted you to know that it has been fixed.

** glad to hear it's fixed...
however, it does us no good if it's not released.
Perhaps, could Newtek do CVS builds like opensource software does?..
I.e. nightly builds for the daring that are willing to take the arrows to be state of the art.
What worries me is management might decide to wait until there are x number of other bug fixes done months from now before they issue a public release.

Thanks much!!!

d

Imageshoppe
03-03-2005, 06:52 PM
Well, just learned about and installed the latest bug fix upgrade, absolutely and positively sure that this SECOND update since I brought up the problem would be the one to take care of this nicely documented bug...

Sigh...

Maybe next update? Please? I'm not asking for anything new... just fix what was broken by the new guys...

Jim Arthurs

DigitalDeuce
03-03-2005, 06:54 PM
yes. Next update.

Imageshoppe
05-10-2005, 07:57 PM
yes. Next update.

Okay, now that the next update is out, there is STILL a problem. In fact, it's a NEW problem. I don't even feel like describing the problem, see for yourselves...

For review, download my test scene at;

http://www.imageshoppe.com/ftp/LW/

Now, launch LW 7.5 and LW 8.3 side by side, set the frame slider to 0, render a frame from both versions. Now repeat, moving from up to frame 1, then frame 2...

...wow!

It's too bad during internal testing someone didn't actually double check to see if things were working correctly. Simply loading up my original test scene I provided to document the original issue would have shown that problems continue...

Maybe 8.4?

Jim Arthurs

Castius
05-10-2005, 08:18 PM
Hit ctrl F7 (compositing window)
set syncronize to frame 0
Pretent this never happened

Imageshoppe
05-10-2005, 09:02 PM
Well, that's a step in the right direction (no pun intended)!

But... frame zero is still wrong... it is not being interlaced correctly... 8.3 shows only one field while 7.5c shows both fields...

I guess if you don't care about the first frame then all is well.... :)

Jim Arthurs

papou
06-14-2005, 07:10 PM
i can't believe we have to explain fields to a company who is selling video product....
maybe VT dev team need to share more knowledge to Lightwave dev team...

Are you planning to fix the no-fielded frame 0?

Why do we have to syncronize to frame 0 in the compositing panel now?
I understand that if this function is here now it's because it's surely a needed thing. But i can't figure what task is for? If it's in the compositing panel, i imagine it's for the background image... But it look to affect all image sequence not only the one used on background image...

confused.

One more thing i would like to see is an independant filter processing on each fields. Do you know that applying a glow on a interlaced frame will destroy the video fluidity? So when you do video, you can't apply vectorblur, you can't apply coronna, you can't apply digital confusion, you can't apply a glow!?

So ok, you can double the frame (and sometimes half the height) with post applyed then recompose your field in a compositing app... but it can be a pain to manadge all channels. The Scene editor "Scale All Items" can help to that but it don't scale animated texture enveloppe and all enveloppes not related to items...
But that is another complain...

Chuck
06-15-2005, 09:02 AM
Way back ages ago when I was first getting started with LightWave one of the things I routinely found to be an irritation was the default to start rendering at frame one - I kept setting it back to 0, and set frame counts based on rendering 0 as the first frame. When I came on board at NewTek one of the first things I learned was that the default was for a reason - frame 0 is not intended to be rendered, and a number of things in the program are set up in such a way as to require 0 as a setup frame. Scenes capturing a sequence with an object intended to have already been in motion should definitely start rendering at frame 1, for example. A recent addition to the list of purposes for frame 0 is the Bone Setup mode, that requires characters to be in setup position at frame 0, and animation first position at Frame 1.

Please rest assured, that's not to say that we shouldn't correct the issue so fielding looks proper even in frame 0. I'll let Deuce know there are still issues going on with fielding, and to drop in on this thread...