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spec24
12-23-2004, 07:28 AM
I know the LW renderer is considered very good out of the box but I know that people say it is also becoming outdated and slow. What are other people's experiences with LW's renderer versus other packages?

pixym
12-25-2004, 10:58 PM
if you compare native lw renderer to Vray for Max (for example) it is incredibly slow!
about 5 times slower and more...

Karmacop
12-26-2004, 12:22 AM
Bu then you have to pay for max .. which is more expensive than lightwave. Then you have to pay for vray. Then you have to pay for how ever many render nodes you want.

I don't think Lightwave's renderer is 5 times slower, unless you mean with radiosity or a lot of raytracing, as it's always been fairly fast for me. 8.2 will only increase the speed too.

pixym
12-26-2004, 06:01 AM
For radiosity vray can be much more than 5 times faster...
A standalone Vray version is about to be released for lightwave... after the 8.2 LW release...

In addition, Vray has an incremental mode for animation that prevent the renderer from computing the Radiosity solution for each frame! This save a lot of time, and in this way Vray is much more than 10 times fster

spec24
12-26-2004, 06:56 AM
I haven't used another 3d animation app since 3dsmax 2.0 - didn't like it much, went back to LW :) I do hope they speed things up with 8.2. I find that with eaxh coinsecutive release the renderer doesn't seem to improve much with speed - considering the processor power increase. Ah who knows :) Maybe it's my imagination.

vbk!!!
12-26-2004, 08:21 AM
vray is very fast with radiosity.... But Lightwave raytracer has very good quality : great color and great contrast ( even vray users says that ).

Axis3d
12-26-2004, 10:18 AM
In the past, I've done experiments with rendering the same scene files with 3DS and Lightwave. I would use the same lighting setups, etc. After I rendered the same scene in both programs and looked at the results, it was clear that Lightwave had a much better render overall. My friend (who was trying to get me to switch to 3DS) was most amazed.
The 3DS render just seemed too soft compared to Lightwave's. LW just showed many more subtlties in the smooth shaded areas and just more overall 'bite' to the picture.
True, Lightwave took a little longer to render the frame, but I liken the experience to buying a good film camera. You buy it because of the picture you get out of it in the end.

spec24
12-26-2004, 11:28 AM
good point Axis.

Yog
12-26-2004, 01:05 PM
3DS MAX (basic renderer) used to be the whipping boy of the rendering world, but since about version 5 it has come on in leaps and bounds. By altering the the AA filtering method you can achieve a wide range of effects, from soft video through to extremely sharp. In speed flexibility and quality I would put it significantly ahead of LW.

As to comparing renderers, you first have to define what you are actually comparing, AA sharpness, AA speed, raytracing speed, sub-picel displacement, GI speed, GI quality, there are a whole raft of things to consider, and possibly only a few of the list are relevant to some individuals.

I have working experience of LW's renderer, Mental ray (for both XSI and MAX), Vray for MAX, and MAX's own radiosity and Lighttracer renderers, and considering the above list, I would have to put LW at the bottom of it for just about all catagories.
The only catagory that I would put LW ahead on is render nodes, being tied with MAX's native renderers offering effectively unlimited free nodes.

pixym
12-26-2004, 04:54 PM
Yog is right about rendering nodes wich are free for lightwave and native Max renderer. You have to buy licence for the over renderers and the cost can be very hight.

Ade
12-26-2004, 07:23 PM
vray destroys lw for radiosity in quality n speed...its gotten to the point where u just use vray and thats it... I enjoy sleeping and having a life.

cresshead
12-26-2004, 09:16 PM
regarding lightwave renderer...we still see that it's more than capable for hi profile rendering where only photoreal will do...such as the citeron c4 advert currently on the t.v where they rendered out a photoreal car and it's backdrop.
as for showing signs of age..well most renderers are now capable of making photoreal renders...just use the one you like..be it lightwave, f prime, vray , final render, mental images mental ray, brazil, renderman etc...

on the plus side there's the 999 free nodes...xsi foundation has a 2cpu capability for mental ray and there's 3 flavours of vray...max mental ray is 2 nodes..then you pay for more..brazil is 4 nodes..then you pay for rrender packs..final render has i believe 20 nodes..then you pay for more..of course max scanline has 10,000 free nodes and that includes the basic scanline, light tracer or the radiosity renderers within the scanline pack....maya has 4 renderers...one is mental ray,,,the ther three are software, hardware and cel shade..the last three have i believe a 10,000 node render capability...

some stuff to note though [for max] is that brazil, mental ray and possibly vray cannot load a hdri native image you have to clamp what you want to use...where as lightwave is a precision renderer where it can handle hdri image with no clamping needed....final render doesn not need to be clamped if i remember correctly [i last used final render some time back...stage 0]

re speed...max scanline is really quick until you invoke ray racing for reflections or refaction or use ray traced/area shadows..then it crawls along

max radiosity [scanline] is VERY ram hungry..it really starts to work okay if you give it 1.5 to 2 gigs of ram

vray looks pretty cool...i only have the free version on my max 4 but it does a good job of repacing the need for max 5 and light tracer!...and i hear that vray's displacment is rather good.

pixar felt that brazil could benefit their latest film so they used it for some 2d matte background work..so brazil looks a top choice for hi end film work..though it is a bit costly [800] for 4 render nodes.

...old stuff...lightscape still has a place in my render needs as it's sooooooooo darn fast and looks amazing..even for an app that last got updated in 1998...i'm hoping that newtek bring some of lightscap'es capabilities into lightwave and DO NOT muck it up like what discreet did when they put in a so called lightscape radiosity engin into max 5...they do a quite poor job..see the ram needs above and also the usability went to pot too.....

being a small user of xsi, max, final render and vray plus lightwave and f prime..i can only offer the observation that my best renders some out of lightwave so far...followed by some simple stuff in max when i need a quick render without raytracing...

...now you shold be really confused!

....soon be next year!

Wade
12-26-2004, 09:57 PM
Want improvement in LW - give it a week. The question is will we be playing tag or leapfrog.

:D www

toby
12-27-2004, 10:05 PM
3DS MAX...since about version 5 it has come on in leaps and bounds. By altering the the AA filtering method you can achieve a wide range of effects, from soft video through to extremely sharp. In speed flexibility and quality I would put it significantly ahead of LW.

It's amazing it never gets used in feature films :p. Actually the only reason
Max gets used in any feature films at all, like 'the Core', is for access to renderers like Brazil and Final Render -

Ade
12-28-2004, 02:49 AM
I dont know any movies that used LW renderer for the final product.
I have seen more movies use 3dmax to fial render stage more than lw..
The intro for spiderman was done with c4d\.

spec24
12-28-2004, 06:04 AM
what do all the movies that do use Lightwave render in?

siproductions
12-28-2004, 06:56 AM
I think that Star Wars episode ll used the final LW render for the R2-D2 flying sequence.

Yog
12-28-2004, 09:57 AM
I think that Star Wars episode ll used the final LW render for the R2-D2 flying sequence.
Sort of. LW was the renderer for the R2 D2 "element", but not for the larger and much more complex factory scene that makes up the rest of the shot.

siproductions
12-28-2004, 10:02 AM
Oh ok. Thanks for making that clear. Just out of curiosity what package was used for the rest of the shot?

toby
12-28-2004, 10:54 AM
I dont know any movies that used LW renderer for the final product.
I have seen more movies use 3dmax to fial render stage more than lw..
The intro for spiderman was done with c4d\.

You didn't know? LW has the most widely used built-in renderer on the planet -

Day After Tomorrow
I,Robot
Vanilla Sky
XXX
Star Trek Nemesis
Fight Club

There's a much bigger list somewhere here on Newtek's site - not to mention award-winning tv shows like Star Trek Voyager and Battlestar Galactica.

Zafar Iqbal
12-28-2004, 04:27 PM
It bothers me that i cant remeber this, but the other day i found a third party LW render beeing developed - and im not talking about FPrime here :)

I just tried to search for it but didn't have any luck.

The site itself showcased alot of examples but didn't tell how long each render took though.

Radiosity and especially caustics looked really nice!

Only thing that made me think "yrk, that sucks" was a colored grain that seemed to bee on every rendering - too harsh and too obvious/fake.

Red_Oddity
12-29-2004, 06:16 AM
Sort of. LW was the renderer for the R2 D2 "element", but not for the larger and much more complex factory scene that makes up the rest of the shot.

I think RenderMan...

evenflcw
12-29-2004, 06:58 AM
Zafar, I remember maxwell render mentioning it would be plugging into LW and not showing rendertimes. Is that the one you were thinking of?

http://www.maxwellrender.com

Ade
12-29-2004, 07:15 AM
You didn't know? LW has the most widely used built-in renderer on the planet -

Day After Tomorrow
I,Robot
Vanilla Sky
XXX
Star Trek Nemesis
Fight Club

There's a much bigger list somewhere here on Newtek's site - not to mention award-winning tv shows like Star Trek Voyager and Battlestar Galactica.

Dont mean to sound negative but I donot believe any of those movies mentioned were final rendered in LW... MAYBE a 10 sec part in the opening title but i doubt it for the whole , expecially irobot.

pixym
12-29-2004, 07:22 AM
Agree with Ade for "realistic" scene,
But I know a feature film with CG character and scenes that have been modeled with Maya and LW, and wholly rendered with LW native renderer because of insuficient Mental ray implementation in Maya when released: Enki Bilal: AD Vitam Immortal

vbk!!!
12-29-2004, 07:43 AM
i think mental ray was used in Fight Club.
But Day after Tomorrow was done with Lightwave.
I'm talking about rendering of course

cresshead
12-29-2004, 08:42 AM
re films made with lightwave renderer......

oscar nominated jimmy neutron...made with lightwave/messiah..



Projects List

The following list of projects have been created with the help of LightWave 3D.

(Note: Due to the large number of projects that LightWave 3D has been used in, all submissions may not appear on this page.)

Feature Films:

2005:

Elektra
Sin City


2004:

The Aviator
Blade Trinity
The Day after Tomorrow
Exorcist: The Beginning
Flight of the Phoenix
Garfield
Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence
Harry Potter
and the Prisoner of Azkaban
Hellboy
Immortelle (ad vitam)
Innocence
I, Robot
The Manchurian Candidate
The Passion of the Christ
The Perfect Score
Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow
Something Borrowed
Spider-Man 2
Thunderbirds
Torque
Van Helsing


2003:

Agent Cody Banks
Daredevil
Duplex
Final Destination 2
Finding Nemo
Freddy vs Jason
Gothika
Holes
The Hot Chick
The Italian Job
L'apetta giulia e la signora vita
Lara Croft Tomb Raider 2:
Cradle of Life
The Last Samurai
The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen
Legally Blonde 2:
Red, White, and Blonde
Lord of the Rings:
The Return of the King
Looney Tunes: Back in Action
The Matrix Reloaded
The Matrix Revolutions
Pirates of the Caribbean:
The Curse of the Black Pearl
S.W.A.T.
Torque
The Triplets of Bellville
X2: X-Men United


2002:

Adaptation
The Adventures of Pluto Nash
Auto Focus
Black Hawk Down
Blade 2
Brotherhood of the Wolf
Collateral Damage
Death To Smoochy
Die Another Day
FoodFight!
Half Past Dead
Halloween: Resurrection
Hart's War
Impostor
Jane Goodall's
Wild Chimpanzees (Imax)
K19 The Widow Maker
Kung Pow! Enter the Fist
Master of Disguise
No Good Deed
Panic Room
The Pianist
Race To Space
Rollerball
Scooby Doo
Spider Man
Star Trek: Nemesis
Star Wars Epsiode II:
Attack of the Clones
The Time Machine
Undercover Brother
We Were Soldiers
xXx


2001:

A.I.: Artificial Intelligence
Avalon
Behind Enemy Lines
Black Knight
Bones
Corky Romano
Delivering Milo
Driven
Enigma
Final Fantasy
Going Back
Jason X
Jimmy Neutron, Boy Genius
(2002 Oscar Nominee)
Jurassic Park III
Kate and Leopold
Lara Croft Tomb Raider
Max Keeble's Big Move
Megiddo: The Omega Code 2
Monsters, Inc.
Scary Movie 2
Shipping News
Spy Kids
The One
The Others
3000 Miles to Graceland


2000:

Battlefield Earth
The Cell
Charlie's Angels
Dracula 2000
Dungeons and Dragons
Final Destination
Gladiator
How the Grinch Stole Christmas
Little Nicky
Mission to Mars
O Brother, Where Art Thou?
Pitch Black
Red Planet
Rules of Engagement
Scary Movie
The Sixth Day
Supernova
X-Men


1999:

The Astronaut's Wife
Bats
Deep Blue Sea
Deep End of the Ocean
Dogma
From Dusk Till Dawn 2
My Favorite Martian
The Thomas Crown Affair
Toy Story 2
The World Is Not Enough


1998:

Armageddon
The Avengers
The Big Hit
Blade
Blues Brothers 2000
Chairman of the Board
Deep Impact
Lost in Space
Octopus
Phantoms
Shakespeare in Love
The Siege
Tale of the Mummy


1997:

Anastasia
Conspiracy Theory
Contact
Devil's Advocate
The Fifth Element
Flubber
Free Willy 3: The Rescue
The Jackal
Men in Black
Mortal Kombat II: Annihilation
Red Corner
Spawn
Sprung
Star Kid (aka The Warrior of Waverly Street)
Titanic (Visual Effects Oscar Winner)
Wishmaster


1995-1996:
Courage Under Fire
Galaxis
Goldeneye
Lord of Illusions
Nixon
Waterworld


1991-1994:
Freejack
Jurassic Park
Star Trek VI:
The Undiscovered Country

cresshead
12-29-2004, 08:57 AM
re:
Quote:
Originally Posted by siproductions
I think that Star Wars episode ll used the final LW render for the R2-D2 flying sequence.

Sort of. LW was the renderer for the R2 D2 "element", but not for the larger and much more complex factory scene that makes up the rest of the shot.

that goes for nearly all shots in films..renderman or maya cannot claim for all of a shot simply because there are many [up to 400 elements pershot] in some sequences that are layered in a compositing app such as flame/inferno/fusion or combustion where all these elements come together...this will also include digital hand painted mattes as well as blu/greenscreen film and cgi shots...even pixar's
latest film which uses rendermen extensivly has elements that were created in 3ds max with brazil...

so to say that xyz renderer was used for whatever film is not really answering the question...except for cgi films like keana the prophecy which was totally made in 3dsmax 3.1 and used 3ds max scanline renderer to great effect...

and

jimmy neutron which used lightwave for modelling and rendering/animation plus messiah for character animation.

Chuck
12-29-2004, 09:01 AM
I dont know any movies that used LW renderer for the final product.
I have seen more movies use 3dmax to fial render stage more than lw..
The intro for spiderman was done with c4d\.

Nearly all of the movies listed on the LightWave Projects List:

http://www.newtek.com/products/lightwave/projects/index.html

include LightWave rendered shots and elements. In those instances where we know that use was limited to pre-vis, modeling, or some other aspect, then we have so noted that specific use. There may be a few instances where use did not include rendering that we have not identified yet, but the fact is that in the overwhelming majority of listings on our projects page you can count on the fact that the film contains LightWave rendered shots and elements. James Cameron's Titanic, for example, included 168 shots that were rendered in LightWave or used elements rendered in LightWave. The Last Samarai used dozens of LightWave rendered elements, including lots of set extensions and most of the arrows that you see on screen, even those in quivers. There are any number of other major films where anywhere from a few to dozens or more shots and shot elements were final renders from LightWave. In addition, a number of animated films have used the LightWave renderer extensively to produce shots, elements and effects, including Oscar nominee Jimmy Neutron: Boy Genius, entirely rendered in LightWave 3D.

Spiderman 2 was previsualized with LightWave and in addition the final print includes several LightWave-rendered shots that were produced by the team that did the pre-vis work.

In I, Robot, the complex factory floor and other CG scenes were created and rendered in LightWave.

The fact is that anyone who goes to the movies has seen a lot of LightWave renderings on the big screen over the last decade, some of it where you would least expect it. Luminetik used LightWave to render buildings that needed to be added to the scenes in Two Weeks Notice, for example.

badllarma
12-29-2004, 09:11 AM
This is what makes me laugh when I here Lightwave is not high end HOW high end do you want! :D

At the end of the day it's not the package or the render it's the artist/s!!! You can give Lightwave,XSI, Maya Brazil etc etc...and they all can still produce crap in the wrong hands! :eek:

Zafar Iqbal
12-29-2004, 11:37 AM
evenflcw: Yeah, thats it... cool :)

Chuck
12-29-2004, 03:31 PM
Today's press release is an interesting note to add to this discussion:

CafeFX Utilizes LightWave 3D to Provide Shots and Elements for Three December Films

http://www.newtek.com/news/releases/12-29-04a.html

And a quote from the release:


"Our artists applied LightWave in a variety of ways in the projects that are coming to the screen this month," said Jeff Barnes, President and co-founder of CafeFX. "They made use of all of LightWave's strengths, from the creation of the digital assets, all the way through scene setup, animation and lighting and then on to the rendering of the final image the audience will see on the big screen. This illustrates the designed-in flexibility that lets LightWave fit anywhere in the production pipeline."

Yog
12-29-2004, 03:41 PM
Today's press release is an interesting note to add to this discussion:

CafeFX Utilizes LightWave 3D to Provide Shots and Elements for Three December Films


That is interesting, especially when read with this article with Akira Orikasa of CafeFX :
18. I know that you saw the LightWave 8 beta. What do you think about the new version and the direction of the development of this new package?

I am moving more towards learning a completely different package at this point. Frankly, our projects are becoming more and more complex and more difficult to achieve. So for the last couple of years, I realize we have always been trying to push the limits or we would adopt different software for help. So as the projects became more difficult, we would end up spending more time to solve problems or walking around them

Chuck
12-29-2004, 04:26 PM
You left out this part:


But if you know it inside out, you can do a lot of cool things really fast. One of the benefits of using LightWave was that realistic rendering result and also the speed of your work flow. So considering the size of our team back then and the turn around speed on projects, LightWave fit perfectly.

One of the things that we feel helps us grow the tool to the best advantage of the users is to work with key users who are themselves in growth mode. There are a variety of key accounts that we do our best to work tightly with, for just this reason. CafeFX is certainly a team in growth mode. Within the last few weeks both our marketing staff and our development staff have done a lot of communication with the managers and the artists at CafeFX. They are a hot team and of course they will push any software to its limits; but we're very much interested in addressing any issues they have and making sure that LightWave remains a key tool in their arsenal, as they grow to meet the demands of ever-more-ambitious projects.

jb_gfx
12-29-2004, 05:27 PM
Agree with Ade for "realistic" scene,
But I know a feature film with CG character and scenes that have been modeled with Maya and LW, and wholly rendered with LW native renderer because of insuficient Mental ray implementation in Maya when released: Enki Bilal: AD Vitam Immortal

Well.. but how terrible is the result? This movie has the most horrible CG seen in the last 2 decades. ;-)

(I'm not saying it's LightWave's fault, just it's not a good example in term of quality)

pixym
12-29-2004, 09:12 PM
Well.. but how terrible is the result? This movie has the most horrible CG seen in the last 2 decades. ;)

jb_fx, It is sure that this movie is not a good example for lightwave rendering quality, specially for the CG character, however some parts of the CG city look good.

Ade
12-30-2004, 03:27 AM
Nearly all of the movies listed on the LightWave Projects List:

http://www.newtek.com/products/lightwave/projects/index.html

include LightWave rendered shots and elements. In those instances where we know that use was limited to pre-vis, modeling, or some other aspect, then we have so noted that specific use. There may be a few instances where use did not include rendering that we have not identified yet, but the fact is that in the overwhelming majority of listings on our projects page you can count on the fact that the film contains LightWave rendered shots and elements. James Cameron's Titanic, for example, included 168 shots that were rendered in LightWave or used elements rendered in LightWave. The Last Samarai used dozens of LightWave rendered elements, including lots of set extensions and most of the arrows that you see on screen, even those in quivers. There are any number of other major films where anywhere from a few to dozens or more shots and shot elements were final renders from LightWave. In addition, a number of animated films have used the LightWave renderer extensively to produce shots, elements and effects, including Oscar nominee Jimmy Neutron: Boy Genius, entirely rendered in LightWave 3D.

Spiderman 2 was previsualized with LightWave and in addition the final print includes several LightWave-rendered shots that were produced by the team that did the pre-vis work.

In I, Robot, the complex factory floor and other CG scenes were created and rendered in LightWave.

The fact is that anyone who goes to the movies has seen a lot of LightWave renderings on the big screen over the last decade, some of it where you would least expect it. Luminetik used LightWave to render buildings that needed to be added to the scenes in Two Weeks Notice, for example.


I remember back in the pioneer days, Amiga plus Lightwave kicked *** with robocop 1/2, T2 and Startrek...

Chuck I ask you this, back in the Eden Fx days, u guys would talk and develope on the spot and grow in efficiency and quality.

Is Newtek talking with big studios in how to make lightwave the final package for final output? Lightwave it very well priced and im sure many people would love it to be from start to finish product.

We all know the renderer is getting too slow, and just watching Incredibles, SSS features were very apparent. Renderman must have just got those features.
I think ppl only use these other renderers purely on reputation and features.

Lightwave has the rep but slowly not the features.
Vray has the features we need for archi work, and these features arent hard, im sure we can get em for lw.

I wish lw 8.5 was the renderers update.
Modeller is fine as it is (need edges though).

operation
12-30-2004, 06:40 AM
humm ...

I agree with most of the comment I read ...

Lw render is slow, ( fprime is not faster... it's just a "multi-pass" render, incresing the quality, that means you must give much time to Fprime to get the lw quality), the force of Frime that you can choose to stop your preview at anytime and stop the antialiasing (time consuming) and of course see the 1th pass of radiosity.

About the free node :rolleyes: yes,it's cool.. but did you try to setup a network render with screamnet (horrible !!!), the easy way is to buy a software like "butterflyrenderer" , "amleto",etc... Screamnet sucks big time...

there is free node, powerfull computers, but that doesn't mean Lw doesn't need optimisation ( the core is old ..out of date).

Of course, the quality is good but there is not enough parameters to tweak and optimise the render.

to chuck:

"...Within the last few weeks both our marketing staff and our development staff have done a lot of communication with the managers and the artists at CafeFX. They are a hot team and of course they will push any software to its limits..."

Please don't be focused only on big or "small" company, as a freelance I can push the limit of Lw, and my experience of other software (maya,xsi,3ds,vray,...) makes me more informed in how you can improve LW.

ps: When I say 'I' (me) I am talking about all customers, by I mean everyday users. because you will bring features on their needs but maybe it will be specific to their projects.

(When I talked to an old developper (old team - a long time ago), he told me that he cares more to company needs than user needs, please don't do the same mistakes) . I know that 20 ou 30 licenses sold to a broadcast company, you care of them. But keep in mind , we (users) are working for them and we can choose sometime the pipeline.


But I trust in your effort to make Lw better.

cheer up! ;)

Chuck
12-30-2004, 08:44 AM
We are indeed talking to and listening to all our customers in our efforts to improve LightWave for the broad range of users that we have. While we are working on improving our communications with key accounts, as mentioned above, that's just one aspect of our efforts. The forums are one venue for communications with our LightWave users from all walks of 3D life, and we keep a close eye on the discussions and requests here. We also work with focus groups drawn from the userbase, and these are selected with an eye to covering the diversity of ways the product is used, from game development to print to visualization for architecture and science to visual effects and motion graphics.

We've also been more active with surveys. For surveys, the survey group is randomly selected from the userbase and we find that the spread of types of ways that LightWave is used by the folks selected in the random samples covers the entire range, and of course the majority of users in a random sample are small shops and freelancers.

We are doing our best to get a clear understanding of the needs of our many constituencies of users, and to be able to move the product forward for each of them.