View Full Version : Multi-cam editing tools

Rich Deustachio
04-11-2003, 09:51 AM
I know this is probably on "the list" already but I just wanted to bring it to the front again. Multi - cam editing tools like being able to see two or more sources in VT Edit at one time in VT Vision. (notice how I dropped the bad Toaster word)

04-11-2003, 09:59 AM
I have it on very reliable authority over a late night NAB beer that this is coming ... only question being when.

Jim Capillo
04-11-2003, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by SBowie
I have it on very reliable authority over a late night NAB beer that this is coming ... only question being when.

That wouldn't have been a Foster's, by any chance ???? ;)

04-13-2003, 04:26 PM
Well, let's just hope 'beery late night conversations' blossom in broad daylight...

04-14-2003, 12:35 AM
I just know that I could really use MCE tools in Toaster.

Live switching may satisfy some for this, but for me MCE in editing is needed.

I don't know if there's a big demand beyond me, though I would think there is, especially for anyone who has actually done real MCE before.

04-14-2003, 08:20 AM
Could you share with the young ones what kind of tools existed in the amiga days?

I usually set up my different cams in TED and use the position to put 'em in different corners of the screen. It works fine. As long as you have a strong enough workstation to handle the streams of video.

04-14-2003, 09:09 PM
Sure, I'll recap what we could do with MCE on the Amiga Toaster/Flyer that we can't do now:

True virtual A/B roll editing. Imagine seeing your A-roll and B-roll playing back synchronized with audio on SEPARATE monitors. Yup, thanks to Aussie's MCE we could do that on the Amiga Toaster/Flyer. But that was only one way it worked, there were many ways to edit with it. Say you wanted to slip and slide different cameras later and have them stay synced up? Yup, you could do that, too. Very quick and efficient.

Aussie's MCE for the Flyer supported up to 50 cameras. Sure, you couldn't see more than two at once, but the rest were a quick click away. It also had tools to help you set up and test the sync of all the clips, which would then never unsync.

After that great MCE program, others have followed along similar lines, with NLEs from Canopus, Pinnacle and Matrox ALL being supported by United Media's MCE, which is frankly closer to Aussie's MCE for the Flyer than the T[2]'s MCE ability is. This MCE program supports up to four camera clips all synced and visible on separate virtual monitors. Velocity also has something similar.

As for T[2], yeah, I can manually set up PIPs, I can manually set up synchronizations, I can't lock them in place though.

And guess what, the only MCE tool currently in T[2] will NOT work with overlaid clips! And you can't do a PIP without an overlaid clip!

Therefore, to do MCE editing with four clips, you need EIGHT clips playing back on your T[2]. One non-overlaid to cut to and one overlaid for a visible PIP. But again, even with all this, there's nothing similar to the virtual A/B roll that Aussie did in the past.

Some would claim that local scrubbing takes the place of seeing all your clips at once, well, good if it does for you, but that just doesn't cut it for what I do. I can't imagine doing MCE and not seeing all my clips at the same time. That's simply NOT MCE, IMHO.

Some also think that with the live switching ability of the Toaster, this editing MCE isn't needed... Well, gee, all the other NLEs have it... Somebody must need it... And I don't take my Toaster to live events and weddings, that would be frankly riddiculus versus doing it in post.

Again, I still don't see how so many people apparently don't need MCE...

04-15-2003, 08:50 PM
I agree with you, Eugene.
MCE is a BIG asset. With it you can quickly edit multi-cam shoots (Weddings, Mitzvahs, speeches, music videos, plays, graduations, etc, etc,etc.)
Without this (at least for us) the Toaster is not a "studio in a box" as we need to use an external edit controller & monitors to perform multi cam editing.
I frequently edit music videos where I would LOVE being able to sync up multi-cam clips and then do a "rough cut" based on the angle that I feel is the best.

Paul Lara
04-15-2003, 08:55 PM
Originally posted by wvp
Without this (at least for us) the Toaster is not a "studio in a box"

Sadly, there is always a 'must-have' feature needed by some that, if missing, diminishes the overwhelming power of VT.

We are working hard to fill as many of these as we can.
Please remember how many cool features we added since VT[2] shipped, and know we are listening.

04-15-2003, 10:06 PM
Paul, in a former life, was the marketer of Ozware, the creator of MCE for the flyer. Paul knows as much as anyone could, how powerful the Oztools were.

This being said, I am still baffled by the lack of the Oztools metaphor in the t2. I am making the argument to make them a t3 priority.

As some bright marketer said once "The reason that Oztools (co-pilot audio and video for the Newtek Toaster/Flyer) are so great is that they were written by a video editor -- not a computer geek."

Who knows what tools we want? I say it's the editors.

who thinks they know what we want? programmers.

I am not trying to slam programmers, but I am trying to make a point about practical application and workflow. The oztool set on the flyer made the editor worth using -- and in fact, made editing fast and fun. HE wrote a short manual that explained -- in non computer BS, the brief rational behind his tools. I used them in every single edit. Everyone one. No BS. I once used a dealers flyer without it and was amazed what a poain in the ***** the flyer was to ue without them. the software was like $99. To me, it was worth 10,000 in time it saved for the years we used the flyer.

Just today I was using t2 build 3890 to MCE a 4 camera shoot.

In TED 1 I had quads set uo of the four cams. I also laid in Steve Bowies TC overlay because it looks cool.

In ted 2 I was constructing my edit.

ted 1 was only a reference. Like eugene said, you must turn overlay on to position and this becomes a limitation when editing.

Also, while on the MCE band wagon, when you cut to selected clip (z key) and try to use the (c key) and cut the audio track, the markers move from the clip to an adjacent location and my edits are disturbed. This is a bug, but I think t2 is a done deal, so better luck next time.

I can use MCE as it works now, but Oztools was a better mousetrap. IMHO

I haven't seen the t3 in the silicon flesh.

The point of the end of this rant is the PLEA with newtek to set Aussie free to recreate his MCE, all of his Oztools and whatever he has thought up to legitamately speed up the editing day.

Obviously EWK and I are Aussie fans. We both bought flyers, but Oztools made the cash register ring.

Paul, use the force.

You know what to do.

UDA man, it's just a shark, you don't need a bigger boat.

Let us now, our future can be enriched.

Rich Deustachio
04-15-2003, 10:29 PM
Paul don't take the MCE suggestion as a put down of VT3, I was very impressed with all of the new features I saw on the NAB streaming, and I will be going to see you demo it at Varto Technologies and will be purchasing the VT3 upgrade.

It is very dificult to edit multi-cam projects without having the ability to see multiple streams so you can select the best shot to use.

Having MCE features will make the system very competative with other systems that event videographers consider buying and with all of the other great features, will make it the hands down winner. I am sure NewTek will work on giving us this feature in the future.

Us users really do apreciate all of the hard work NewTek employees put into the VT3 it does show you do listen to the end users.

Paul Lara
04-16-2003, 07:05 AM
Thanks, Rich.
I'll see what I can do!

04-16-2003, 08:15 AM
I'd like to thank Eugene for taking the time to explain what the MCE tools were.

I'd like to thank Paul for being so very patient with us, sometimes unpatient, users.

04-16-2003, 01:32 PM
Have to second your comments about Eugene's 'backgrounder' on the subject of MCE, and Kurt's little 'spasm' about Aussie and his Co-pilot sofware was right on point - those were the days when 'flying' was fun, and OzWare made a lot of it possible


04-16-2003, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by Paul Lara
Sadly, there is always a 'must-have' feature needed by some that, if missing, diminishes the overwhelming power of VT.

We are working hard to fill as many of these as we can.
Please remember how many cool features we added since VT[2] shipped, and know we are listening.

I totally understand Paul. I agree with Rich's last post completely.
As my comment stated, for US MCE is a big part of what we do. Of the four systems we have, none can handle mce like the flyer that has been described.
I have full confidence that Newtek will be able to make this happen in the future (I cannot say that about other companies).
Thanks again for all you do!