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View Full Version : Newteks time to speak - What does NT want from Apple to make Mac a better for LW?



Ade
12-11-2004, 06:52 PM
We seem to always be going on how newtek must do this and that, but im sure part of it is APPLES fault too.

Newtek what do you feel Apple has to do to improve its system for lightwave.

Hardware and software wise.

Beamtracer
12-11-2004, 11:42 PM
Before everyone heads down to Cupertino waving pitchforks, I'd like to say that Mac OS X is fantastic for 3D. It's all there.

Darth Mole
12-12-2004, 03:24 AM
Except OpenGL...

Ade
12-12-2004, 07:09 AM
I've moved to pc simply because Apple just doesnt care much for us pros nomore, theyd rather sell ipods n stuff.
Their OGL is slow, very slow.

BrianW
12-12-2004, 08:18 AM
OpenGL on the Mac is not slow!! It is just slow with lightwave. I own Maya, Modo, Cinema4D and LightWave. All the others kill LightWave when it comes to OpenGL. So I don't think it just Apple here to blame!
BrianW

TheDevil
12-12-2004, 12:14 PM
OpenGL on the Mac is not slow!! It is just slow with lightwave. I own Maya, Modo, Cinema4D and LightWave. All the others kill LightWave when it comes to OpenGL. So I don't think it just Apple here to blame!
BrianW

Maybe so, but the PC versions still out do the Mac equivelants in OpenGL speed.

Maybe in two years Apple will be a viable serious 3D option. It just can't compare to the PC at the moment. I'm not a MAC basher, just writing my opinion based on experience on both platforms. The mac runs rings around the PC when it comes to video and sound editing though.

chrisdude0000
12-12-2004, 04:15 PM
apple has very good open gl their whole entire operating system is built on open gl most of the problems are ports that do not use all of the macs potential or are not well written for that platform. if you made a 3d app from scratch for apple and then ported it to windows it would be faster on the mac unless you optomized for the pc as much as the mac. i dont even think newtek uses xcode to compile mac software.

Chuck
12-13-2004, 12:04 PM
The Mac is a viable and serious 3D platform now and has been - well, all along, actually. It has always been a great graphics platform and OS X has really raised the bar.

Among our issues are that we need to migrate our development to Xcode and we've announced that this is indeed our roadmap for Mac development, as is a 64-bit port. On the Windows side we've had a 64-bit OS for development for more than four years and the overwhelming majority of the work holds good for the forthcoming Windows® XP Professional x64 Edition OS, currently in beta. We've not had that kind of a leg up on the Mac 64-bit project, so yes, we do feel that there is a great deal more work to do for Mac 64-bit development than remains in completing the port to Windows 64-bit. We do intend to solve those issues at best possible speed, but there certainly is the possibility that we may not be able to release a Mac 64-bit LightWave concurrently when we release the Windows 64-bit version. That would not be our preference, any more than it would be our Mac users' preference, but it may well be the case given the situation.

Ade
12-13-2004, 05:04 PM
Chuck have your guys got Tiger to play with? Is it significant for Lightwave development as in have apple applied features to their API's to help optimise for LW mac?

Beamtracer
12-14-2004, 01:32 AM
Chuck have your guys got Tiger to play with?
I think that goes without saying. Apple released the Tiger beta to key developers (I'm sure Newtek was among them) mid-2004 at the WWDC (developers' conference).

Ade
12-14-2004, 01:35 AM
Peebler said Tiger is 64bit internals but the UI and interface API's arent.
This doesnt bode well for Open GL speedups.

Darth Mole
12-14-2004, 05:27 AM
Since OpenGL is driven by the GPU isn't this kind of separate from the workings of the main CPU architecture? Anyway, given the work going on with Core Video, I doubt very much if OpenGL will be slower in Tiger than it is with Panther or Jaguar...

Mac OS X Tiger to enhance support for OpenGL pixel buffers
August 11, 2004* The next version of Mac OS X (Tiger) will include better support for OpenGL pixel buffers, which lets developers perform offscreen rendering with OpenGL. For example, developers could create a pixel buffer to store a texture that may be applied to hundreds of different objects in a video game, though the texture would only be processed once.

blabberlicious
12-14-2004, 12:37 PM
OpenGL on the Mac is not slow!! It is just slow with lightwave. I own Maya, Modo, Cinema4D and LightWave. All the others kill LightWave when it comes to OpenGL. So I don't think it just Apple here to blame!
BrianW


Right on Dude.

I've switched to C4D instead of LW LAYOUT, and its Open GL performance is shockingly better than LW.

I can model with anti-alaising turned on - all the wireframe, not just grids - which is something else!

It actually takes advantage of the GForce Card, which I bought to try and hump LW into some sort of usable state....I've heard all the blah blah about Apple being to blame, but the writing's on the wall when you compare LW to many rivals, as Brian says.

Hang on to the application and change the platform?

Only if you have no other choice.

And for LW, those days are over.

I sincerely hope 8.2 puts paid to the mac second class seat syndrome - but I have my doubts. It's taken so long to get the ball rolling in the right direction.

TAB>SHIFT (switching metaphors)

Despite people's rabid posting about 8.2, it doesn't feel like we are riding a wave - more like sitting on the beach - watching the fun through binoculars...

tallscot
12-17-2004, 11:08 AM
But if you look at the Cinebench results, which is a great benchmark tool that measures rendering and OpenGL, the Mac lags way behind the PC in OpenGL in Cinema too.

My dual 2.5 Ghz G5 with an nVidia 6800 Ultra gets a hardware OpenGL score of around 1,600 but PCs are getting around 3,600. That's a huge difference.

However, do you remember the Motion Builder demonstration? It's OpenGL performance was superior on the Mac compared to the PC. This is a cross-platform application that has a very tiny amount of platform-specific code. It's a rare application in that it was developed from the ground up on OS X and the latest Windows. It's new. Alias now owns it. I'd like to see benchmarks of that application.

My only point is it seems the OpenGL performance can be great on the Mac. It's the applications' fault. However, that's irrelevant if all you want to do is model in a specific application and you want the fastest OpenGL performance.

blabberlicious
12-17-2004, 12:41 PM
But if you look at the Cinebench results, which is a great benchmark tool that measures rendering and OpenGL, the Mac lags way behind the PC in OpenGL in Cinema too.

My dual 2.5 Ghz G5 with an nVidia 6800 Ultra gets a hardware OpenGL score of around 1,600 but PCs are getting around 3,600. That's a huge difference.

.

Yeah - but relatively speaking (and we live a relative world), LW open GL on the mac really stinks :-)

BTW motion-builders apparent speed may have something to do with not having to process SubDd objects - the real killer in terms of display performance.

I heard MB6 has implemented subDs - anyone care to comment on it's performance?

blueagave
12-17-2004, 08:14 PM
Take those benchmarks with a grain of salt. Nvidia and ATI are constantly releasing PC drivers tuned to optimize their benchmark scores on the PC. They have both been know to optimize specifically for benchmarks, which doesn't always equate to real world performance. The Mac drivers have to go through a modicum of quality control, which takes time.

However, comparing Mac apps to Mac apps, LW is slow.

Lightwolf
12-18-2004, 01:23 PM
Yeah - but relatively speaking (and we live a relative world), LW open GL on the mac really stinks :-)
Relatively speaking, it stinks on any platform ;)

Yeah, all driver manufacturers are known to tune, but at least nVidia have a _very_ good openGL support (on the PC side). Especially since most tuning modifications relate to the game oriented directX side of things, which are no concern to us openGL users...
Cheers,
Mike

Scazzino
03-25-2005, 02:03 PM
Looks like Apple, ATI and NVidia may be stepping up to the plate...

http://www.architosh.com/news/2005-03/2005c0325-opengl-apple.html

-MikeS

Ade
03-26-2005, 02:17 AM
Very interesting the part that says work with chip vendors!



Mac 3D: Apple Seeking Improvement with OpenGL Performance


Apple is apparently recruiting to improve OpenGL performance on Mac OS X. According to an OpenGL forum posting, Apple, ATI, and Nvidia OpenGL software teams are seeking multiple engineers to join 3D graphics OpenGL teams with a focus on the OS X platform. The goal is to try and make OS X the best OpenGL implementation in the industry.


Job responsibilities include:


GLSL compiler design and optimization

JITC functional modules

Application and benchmark tuning

OpenGL extensions

Software renderer

automation tester tools

Developer tools

OpenGL ARB specifications

Maintenance and bug fixes

Work with chip vendors

OS integration

Developer support



The minimum requirements for these positions request BSEE/CS degree, in-depth knowledge of OpenGL, and other core programming experiences. Resumes can be sent to one or all three of the following companies and contacts:


Kim Hoffman, Apple Computer

Chris Bentley, ATI

Richard Clark, Nvidia

earnestnewt
03-26-2005, 05:52 PM
>but there certainly is the possibility that we may not be able to release a Mac 64-
>bit LightWave concurrently when we release the Windows 64-bit version.

Wish I had seen that before :mad: