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View Full Version : Syntheyes = MatchMover.... nope sir...



Hervé
12-05-2004, 04:08 AM
Hello, I just wanted to come back a little on the use of 3D Tracking softwares...

There had been another thread not long ago, talking about the surprising low priced Syntheyes 3D tracking Vs. his two other competitors... regarding the extraordinary differences in Price...

I want to post my feelings about it, as I have a MatchMover full version for a week, and a demo version of Syntheyes...

First Syntheyes claims on his site that his soft is paradise compare to his two other competitors... (false, he's saying that coz usually people that turn to his software have not had the possibility to try others, so it's easy say)

I can today tell you those apps are two different worlds.

For instance, in S. you can find the 3D points only if the camera is moving enough under certain conditions (very few in fact), the pans, tilts, if alone, wont do it..., while in MM, you have the possibility to add helper still frames and so it is possible...

usually there is always noise in the camera path found by a 3D tracking app, in MM, you can smooth that noise (very important for precise match)

There is so much more, but I just wanted to point that to people that just think it's a click and voila...

+ MM has dropped its price from $7,000 to $3,500... still hardcore, but better... why they did that... simply because now they have a new MM version (again at $7,000 but that one includes the world first software only Mocap

Check their site... pretty amazing... and still less money than the special suit Mocap + many cams...

Voila, I just wanted to say that... I hope it helps anyone who needs it... ;)

pooby
12-05-2004, 06:49 AM
Syntheyes is still more than adequate for professional work. We've been using it for months at our studio and it's always produced perfect results. And I'm talking about commercial jobs for advertising, not just us messing about with it.

With Syntheyes you can automatically smooth the noise very easily and you can also add frames from different angles if you want a 3d track from a tilt etc. (Pans work fine without this.)

I can't comment on Matchmover, as I haven't used it, but I would hope that does have some extra features, considering it costs about 10 times the price.

Syntheyes certainly doesn't deserve to be poo-pooed as it's by far the most cost effective solution and is remarkably good.

Hervé
12-05-2004, 07:35 AM
good answer... the fact is I am really curious, because he even says pans and tilts are no good candidates for syntheyes... so I dunno... could you post some links with a commercial stuff you did with it...?

Thanks for taking the time... ;)

BTW. my intention is far from poo-pooping syntheyes... :cool:

Castius
12-05-2004, 08:49 AM
Sounds like your taking marketing a little to seriously Hervé. :) It's not like they can put on there front page. "We make pretty good software but its crap compared to the high priced software". This industry like many others has to be taken with a grain a salt.

You started the tread and it was a little one sided that’s why it seemed like a little poo-pooping

Thanks for the input. Having someone give direct feedback on two different software is good. But as pooby pointed out it's also best to get a few different peoples opinion, and then try it and judge for yourself. As we all use and learn software a little differently.

Can you show any of the stuff you have done with both of the software?

Hervé
12-05-2004, 11:19 PM
well this is the reason I started this ....

I started to use MM ( a full trial version) and I'll try to post something... with syntheyes... one cannot, coz there is no working export demo... just a play demo.

The bizarre thing (this is why again I've strated this...) is because each time I ask about to see a result done with Syntheyes, people dont reply... so... I dunno....

on the other side I can clearly see MM exemples... Syntheye has a big list... but it's hard to know where they used it really (because people use whatever fits their needs in a production.. like 3D... it is a mix of softwares... no?

I am going to ask a real pro tracker I know, and see what he says.... I mean about fondamental differences in the progams.... ;) :o

BTW... we should have a video gallery....

richardo
12-06-2004, 02:35 AM
hi herve

i find it strange that you say people dont show or reply to your repeated questions about syntheyes. if i'm not mistaken i sent you an animation that shows syntheyes to track difficult shots beautifuly.........i dont remeber you replying??

to reply to your other comments; about not being able to use helper images well you can if you read the user guide you'll see that it is possible.
you are also able to smooth out the camera path if it is needed.

maybe you need to use a software for more that a week to see its true strengths and or weaknesses................

best regards

richard

Hervé
12-06-2004, 02:46 AM
I might be retarted then, (see I am getting old...) coz I dont recall seen a video... anyhow... if you have any links...

thanks
Hervé :) ;)

Lightwolf
12-06-2004, 03:25 AM
Hi Hervé,
I'd love to post something, but I'm not allowed to until the movie hits the cinemas, which will be next year or so.
However, I tracked a very difficult 2K 1552 frame shot in SynthEyes (which needed manual adjustement in the last youple of frames, mainly because there was nothing to track), and I found it to be quite reliable and easy to use. Mind you, it took me a day or two to get accustomed to it, but now I can move through a shot very quickly.
I've also done a couple of minor tests with it, and it performed extremely well, much better than any of the other tools I could get my hand on as demos.

And, as others have mentioned:

SE Allows you to use multiple images from different angles for difficult shots. There is even an included Tutorial you can download.
It does handle non-moving cameras as well if you set the right options.
Of course you can smooth the noise too. Even better, you can check every single tracker for how accurate it is, and remove it from the final 3D solution (or modify it).

Loads of manual options (if needed), decent enough roto tools to mask out moving areas, super fast (even across a network in 2K). What can I say, the best 349,- bucks I've ever spent.

(Yeah, I know, it makes me sound like a salesman, sorry).

The only downside is, that every software dealer will tell you it sucks, basically because they don't have a margin on it, and it is sold via the internet only.

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
12-06-2004, 03:28 AM
+ MM has dropped its price from $7,000 to $3,500... still hardcore, but better... why they did that... simply because now they have a new MM version (again at $7,000 but that one includes the world first software only Mocap

Check their site... pretty amazing... and still less money than the special suit Mocap + many cams...
Hm, his made me stumble...
What does 3D matchmoving have to do with Mocap (i.e. motion capture) and a suit?
May be you got your terms mixed up Hervé...

cheers,
Mike

richardo
12-06-2004, 05:24 AM
hi herve

check your mail..............i sent you a test animation that was tracked with syntheyes. i would post it here only i dont have a site................

best regards

richard

Hervé
12-06-2004, 05:41 AM
Thanks Richardo, I'll check it right away.... :)

Mike, That is what the guy from Realviz told me... the first all software mocap... he said usually to record some mocap, U need an actor, some special sort of suit with captors or something like that, + speicla cameras to record it.... he said they have a new system that tracks markers on people....

I dunno much about mocap... but I do know it is the movements taken from an actor...? No?

check it here...

http://www.realviz.com/products/mpro/motion_capture.php

So Mike you're working on a blockbuster...? are you doing special FX...?

Lightwolf
12-06-2004, 05:50 AM
Mike, That is what the guy from Realviz told me... the first all software mocap... he said usually to record some mocap, U need an actor, some special sort of suit with captors or something like that, + speicla cameras to record it.... he said they have a new system that tracks markers on people....

I dunno much about mocap... but I do know it is the movements taken from an actor...? No?
Ah, o.k., I see what he is getting at.
I'm not sure if this will really replace a full mocap room for full body motion capturing. And there have been a couple of solutions out for facial capturing as well... I'd like to see how and what it exports, especially in conjunction to the input material. See, I'm just as sceptic as you are ;)

So Mike you're working on a blockbuster...? are you doing special FX...?
Special FX yes, blockbuster... well, I doubt it :) A very nice european co-production though. I'll post more info once I'm allowed to. We basically did around 20 shots, mostyl retouching, loads of compositing, and 6 shots involving LW (one of which is 1552 frames .... *ouch* ).

Cheers,
Mike

Hervé
12-06-2004, 06:41 AM
I really want to see it when it is done... loads of compositing... cool ! you mean blending 3D and real footage..? I am trying to do a small piece right now, to put on my reel...

I dunno if in a room full of actors, it performs well, I just know he said it cost $7,000 just fro that module... ouch... :o :D

Tell me when you're done with the movie....

Lightwolf
12-06-2004, 06:45 AM
I really want to see it when it is done... loads of compositing... cool ! you mean blending 3D and real footage..?
Yes.
We basically had a shot of two guys on a steel girder in front of a blue screen, and the camera approaching it.
I had to stabilize the shot, track the camera, key the bluescreen (as well as retouching it, and removing tracking markers by hand). We then added a 3D steel girder bridge and loads of matte painting elements (which we didn't design) into the background.
Loads of work, LW, DF and SynthEyes ... I can't wait for Fusion5 though, it would have made that job so much easier, and since you can script the export in SynthEyes, you could easily hook it up to Fusion 5 if needed.

Cheers,
Mike

Hervé
12-06-2004, 07:01 AM
really cool... I am using AFX... because I have loads of nice plugins for it... like cinelook... I still have to learn all the ins and out... but I'll eventually get where I want ... and I can always ask Mike if .... ;) ;) :D

Lightwolf
12-06-2004, 07:04 AM
and I can always ask Mike if .... ;) ;) :D
LOL, well, you know you can, but don't mention AFX :eek: ;) :D

Cheers,
Mike

Hervé
12-06-2004, 07:12 AM
$100 you dont like it.... well I'd like to put my hands on another one as well... but for now it'll do the trick... :D (well at least for the samll stuff I am doing now...)

inquisitive
12-18-2006, 02:09 AM
with the upgrade to Vue 6 infinite they are offering as a special matchmover HD with a limitation that it only exports to Vue format for $149, looks like a good price (for a limited version).

jin choung
12-21-2006, 02:00 PM
hi herve,

regarding pan/tilt - NO matchmove app can solve such a scene such that you get a camera move with trackers placed in 3d space. the nature of matchmove calculation REQUIRES parallax. so this is not a limitation of syntheyes.

i used syntheyes for several promo spots and it worked great. but the interface and lingo is a bit off-putting.

also, i know that you CAN indeed use multiple stills in order to assist a solve of a scene but does anyone know if you can then take that solution and generate a camera move for a camera that is just panning and tilting? i'm almost sure you can but i haven't tried it.

jin

sgfx
05-04-2007, 07:55 PM
here is an good example of using syntheyes and lightwave
http://cybermessageboard.fatcow.com/ssonte/viewtopic.php?t=464

radams
05-05-2007, 02:37 PM
Ah, o.k., I see what he is getting at.
I'm not sure if this will really replace a full mocap room for full body motion capturing. And there have been a couple of solutions out for facial capturing as well... I'd like to see how and what it exports, especially in conjunction to the input material. See, I'm just as sceptic as you are ;)

Special FX yes, blockbuster... well, I doubt it :) A very nice european co-production though. I'll post more info once I'm allowed to. We basically did around 20 shots, mostyl retouching, loads of compositing, and 6 shots involving LW (one of which is 1552 frames .... *ouch* ).

Cheers,
Mike

Hi Guys,

Well interesting comments here...
I agree with Mike...Synth Eyes has some amazing uses...and I would put it into any toolkit along with another tracking option...why not it is cheap enough ;)

And it is a good one to get started in using..then branch out later to others...also note that it is a GOOD idea to learn how to match move without it...then you'll understand better how to use them ;)

As for MoCap...

Well RealViz isn't the first really to use optical flows to create motion track to meshes....etc...

Pixel Farm was doing that several years ago...when they just started the company...I saw facial recogintion and that could be used to controlling meshes back then...

So I would suggest doing some homework before stating things salesmen tell you :)

Happy tracking all :)

Cheers,

Ray Adams

Lightwolf
05-05-2007, 03:42 PM
...and I would put it into any toolkit along with another tracking option...why not it is cheap enough ;)

It still takes time to learn, especially for tricky shots.


And it is a good one to get started in using..then branch out later to others...

Hm, I still have to find a "other" one that I prefer... and that is pretty regardless of cost ;)

Cheers,
Mike

evolross
12-28-2007, 08:24 AM
So Mike you're working on a blockbuster...? are you doing special FX...?
I know it's an old thread, but I was researching Synth Eyes and thought I would update this thread with the fact that Synth Eyes was recently used in around 200 shots in National Treasure: Book of Secrets according to http://www.ssontech.com/.

warrenwc
12-28-2007, 01:30 PM
Haven't tried Syntheyes, but I MUCH prefer Boujou over MatchMover.

Greenlaw
12-28-2007, 03:27 PM
Hi,

I can't speak for Match Mover, but we use SynthEyes and Boujou here. Also R+H has it's own proprietary system.

Basically, we found that we get different results with each system depending on the shot and the quality of the script notes we get. Sometimes SynthEyes does a better job than Boujou and sometimes Boujou does a better job than SynthEyes. The two commercial solutions work well for us most of the time, and sometimes we still wind up hand-tracking a shot. For those occasional 'impossible' tracks, we're fortunate to be able to turn to the studio for help.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that they all do things a little differently, so I wouldn't flat out say one is better than the other.

Except in case of R+H's proprietary software, and its users and programmers--clearly, it's better. :)

DRG

wellsichris
12-28-2007, 04:40 PM
Just wanted to put a little more info on syntheyes. Like Greenlaw said it depends on the shot and what you are trying to do.

We did a track off between Syntheyes, Boujou, and PFtrack. A fairly normal shot. Plenty of parallax shift, some people moving around. A fast camera move=some motion blur. Anyways it was essentially, just push the automatic button and see which gets the best solve fastest. Sytheyes solved it about 10 times faster than the others. All of them did a good solve but sytheyes was a lot faster. I don't know if it's just me knowing sytheyes really well or what but I have yet to find a shot that I can't track better and faster in Sytheyes than other people can do in their apps of choice. I of course haven't seen R+H's setup so can't speak of that :) I have had a handful of shots where people couldn't get a track in PFTrack and I literally solved it in half an hour.

that being said it doesn't have some of the features other packages do. from what I hear it's harder to learn than other packages. It's the Tracking system I started on so I can't really compare the learning curve of it.

I think if you wanted just a one button-no user input required-tracker some of the other trackers can probably automatically do better solves on harder shots. With knowing it well you can track some shots I don't think the others can do.

So basically I would say:

Really fast on normal one click shots.
Needs a little more help on more difficult shot. Still even with having to manually address some things it's still faster than other trackers.
Really good at hard shots, but you have to really know the program and it's not as intuitive as some.
The interface is horrible :)
The Price is awesome and the one man developer does a good job at implementing features people want. However if something happens to him development will probably stop?

on a side note, here's a short tutorial on how to do 3d scanning with syntheyes.

www.chriswellsfx.com/tutorials.html

Chris

Lightwolf
12-29-2007, 04:32 AM
that being said it doesn't have some of the features other packages do. from what I hear it's harder to learn than other packages. It's the Tracking system I started on so I can't really compare the learning curve of it.

Then again, it has some features that others don't have ;)
As for the learning curve... I didn'T find it to be that bad... a few hours for a simple shot from scratch, a few days if the shot is more complicated (with no previous experience in both cases).


The interface is horrible :)

I suppose that can be argued. From a graphical PoV maybe... from a functional one it is actually quite good once you get down to the nitty gritty bits. I.e. adjusting trackers just using the numeric keypad without touching the mouse is very sweet.

Cheers,
Mike

mrpapabeis
12-29-2007, 07:15 AM
Here is a tute on on solving a pan in synth eyes.



GP

wellsichris
12-29-2007, 11:29 AM
As for the "horrible interface" I was referring only to the graphical look of the thing. which can be customized. ever little color. but still it looks like it was made by a programmer :) and I think it makes people not take it seriously. As for the usability of the interface, it's great. I love working in it. Once you know it, it works extremely well. Thanks Mike for responding. I should have been more clear in my post.

Chris

Lightwolf
12-29-2007, 12:14 PM
... and I think it makes people not take it seriously.
Just like Nuke, Shake or LW, Max, Maya ;)

Cheers,
Mike

wellsichris
12-29-2007, 01:33 PM
Mike,

I'm not trying to be confrontational or negative about syntheyes in the least. I have spent countless hours trying to convince people that syntheyes is a great tool. I only say I think the interface "graphically" makes people not take it seriously because of peoples reactions when I open it up to show them what it can do. Once I start showing them their opinion changes, but if they just opened it to see, my experience has been people are turned off by the "look" of the program. I would agree that Nuke falls in this same area.

Anyway Mike we are disputing the same point. Syntheyes is a great tool. If for whatever reason you find something in this post that makes it sound like I'm being negative it's not my intention.

Cheers,
Chris

Lightwolf
12-29-2007, 01:54 PM
I'm not trying to be confrontational or negative about syntheyes in the least.
Well, I was exaggerating and pulling your leg... a bit.
Then again, most of the apps I mentioned have a GUI that is imho just as bad, and nobody complains about that. Then again, look at glitzy Poser and see what people have to say about that app ;)

Maybe that'll give you some ammo for when you show off SynthEyes the next time ;)

Cheers,
Mike

druitre
01-02-2008, 11:56 AM
I've been using syntheyes for about three years and have never met a shot yet that I couldn't solve in it. Even crappy-lit badly-framed shaky-bouncy lousy-res ******-shot footage.

Some examples of my work with syntheyes are up on my site (see link in signature). If you see anything that looks like it's been matchmoved, you can be sure I did it in syntheyes.

(Hah! TWO pieces of shameless advertising in ONE post!)

Animulsion
02-11-2008, 06:22 PM
Hello,

I am looking into syntheyes seriously as an alternative to some of the more costly software out there. I don't have a large budget so unfortunately I can't seriously consider MM PF Track or Boujou (Or 3D Equalizer). Maybe in the future. That said, I have worked with Boujou extensively at the studio where I work and it's ease of use and interface make it highly desirable.

Sytheyes. I have been looking at the demo for a bit now, I have been reading the documentation, and my general take on it after using a few packages is:

It seems to have quite a few options that Boujou does not. (I know many other packages have these same options, but my background is Boujou so I am comparing it to that.) Preprocessing is nice, the ability to append frames at the beginning and ending definately would have been of benefit to Boujou in the productions that I have been involved in. I can't count the number of times that directors change the length of their shots and add frames on, which in turn means we had to resolve.

On the downside, having used both now, I found that Boujou usually had a better solve out of the gate. It may be that I know the software well and can look at it, and give it the settings it needs before solving, but on a general solve, boujou was more solid. The ones out of syntheyes took a little intervention. The footage I was using was interlaced, and blurry, not clear, and not a lot of trackable information, but enough to get a solve.

Overall I was impressed with Syntheyes features. especially considering that it is from one programmer vrs 2D3 which should really be making huge leaps in comparison. (but hasn't really done a lot to boujou since adding support for object based tracks.) The downside of Boujou is the lack of documentation for version 4, which came out with a quick user guide, but didn't really come out with a manual. (maybe they have now, but the hadn't for the first 6 months it was out at least.)

Boujou is fairly unstable, crashes fairly often, Syntheyes, I haven't used it for a great amount of time, but it hasn't crashed on me yet. I haven't got the full version yet, but I am inching toward getting it.

Dodgy
02-11-2008, 07:17 PM
http://www.digilab.uni-hannover.de/download.html

Does anyone use Voodoo? Opinions?

Digital Hermit
02-11-2008, 09:08 PM
Hello,

... Syntheyes, I haven't used it for a great amount of time, but it hasn't crashed on me yet. I haven't got the full version yet, but I am inching toward getting it.

All I have to say is… get it before he gets smart and raises the price!

I have it... I love it... best 2d and 3d motion tracking software for the dollar. :thumbsup:

wacom
02-19-2008, 07:13 PM
http://www.digilab.uni-hannover.de/download.html

Does anyone use Voodoo? Opinions?

It kind of works...but given the price of syntheyes and how good it works...I'd tell you NOT to waste your time and start there (with syntheyes).

I hardly even knew what I was doing when I tracked some of my first shots...just followed the first three or four tutorials on the site and learned how to setup very basic manual markers at times. It was so amazingly simple compared to many other 2D and 3D tracking programs I've used. Really- the shot stabilization etc. in it is quite good and almost worth the price alone- plus it supports so many output formats. True- the interface is kind of sad, but that ugly duckling is very attractive bellow the skin.

As far as I've read, Syntheyes was never intended to be a "track with one button" piece of software- instead it was intended to work in bad to horrible conditions, which means the meat of it is supposedly on the manual side. I've only dipped slightly into those waters- but can attest to the fact that it's amazingly powerful.

I remember one of the first shots I tried- I used a still camera that took video at 320x240 - 15fps - motion jpeg, with a ton of color noise in my general work area. NOT the ideal set of frames to feed into such a program. Not only did it produce a tracked shot right away with minimal manual setup from me- there was little to no sliding AND it stabilized the shot! It was a hand held walking swoosh around the room and zoom...and my inner and outer geek jumped for joy...

OK...so lets just say I like the application...the fact that I got it used for like $200 of the LW boards still stuns me!

joschy
02-20-2008, 07:27 AM
All I have to say is… get it before he gets smart and raises the price!

I have it... I love it... best 2d and 3d motion tracking software for the dollar. :thumbsup:


totally :agree: , SynthEyes rocks :jam: :boogiedow

...and you have object tracking included! As a MatchMover user the change to SynthEyes was not so hard. I think, it´s important to know the process of mm at all.

druitre
02-20-2008, 11:47 AM
the only thing that worries me about this thread is the title... it's the complete opposite of its content. anyone just glancing at it might conclude to steer clear of syntheyes. which would be sad.

Lightwolf
02-20-2008, 01:10 PM
the only thing that worries me about this thread is the title... it's the complete opposite of its content. anyone just glancing at it might conclude to steer clear of syntheyes. which would be sad.
It would... but the title was justified for the intent of the original poster.

Obviously, after reading all of this the title ought to be:
Syntheyes > MatchMover.... yes sir!!!

Cheers,
Mike

jin choung
02-20-2008, 11:47 PM
right. the op had his opinion which he was entitled to express. but that means that the whole rest of thread gets to be filled with others' expressions to the contrary.

syntheyes is great. fantastic even. and more - ludicrously affordable for the capability.

jin